u/Alarming-Syrup-95

You’ll be judged for anything you do if you leave. If you’re angry, they’ll tell you to get over it and dismiss you as bitter. If you don’t care, they’ll say you’re in denial.

But anger is good and warranted.

One of the weirdest and unhealthiest things in orthodoxy is the teaching that we must overcome our passions. This encourages a kind of passivity. Feelings are suspect. This can appear wise because spiritual highs and lows are fleeting and meaningless. But in orthodox spirituality, reasonable suspicion of emotions becomes the teaching that all emotions are bad.

This encourages a kind of passivity. I think this is one reason why orthodoxy never developed any social teachings like the Catholics. In orthodoxy, people have no agency, things just happen to them.

Emotions are neither good nor bad but feeling emotions is good.

So anger at orthodoxy, at cult members, apologists, whatever is warranted. Orthodoxy is harmful. It is misogynistic, transphobic, and homophobic. It takes advantage of people. It’s okay, good even, to be angry at harmful things.

I know “normal” has a bad connotation so apologies for using it.

We’ve been out about 6 years now but there are still times when it hits me. I attended a book group meeting last weekend. It made me remember what it was like hanging out with orthodox people. There was always the one-up-man-ship of spiritual things. Also, the “did you read [weird orthodox theology book]?” And if your politics didn’t conform to MAGA, you had to keep quiet because everyone just assumed that we all agreed on that one. You might hear about how Hillary Clinton drinks the blood of children or that the COVID vaccine was engineered by Bill Gates to track our children.

Sometimes when I’m around “normal” people, I’m struck by the thought that these people don’t know any of the weird niche religious drama that I thought about for years. When you’re inside, you lose the perspective of how small and “weird” that world actually is.

Being around people who were never orthodox is one of the best ways to heal because it helps you to realize how insignificant orthodoxy is. And then you also see that these people aren’t orthodox and they’re perfectly fine healthy people. They are nice people, treat each other well, without a priest telling them how they are supposed to be. The people that we were supposed to be scared of because they weren’t religious, voted for Democrats, are trans, in a poly relationship, are gay, whatever, are actually good people.

Does the weirdness of your time in orthodoxy still strike you?

About 15 years ago or so, I “knew” an orthodox guy online. He was very rude and blustery. You know, a “tell it like it is,” kind of a guy. In many ways, he was the typical male convert before this latest manosphere trend. He was middle-aged, came from Protestantism, was a “Front Porch” conservative (is that still a thing?), wanted to save “western culture.” He was probably a big hit at coffee hour because he had MANY opinions.

By the time I knew him, he was barely hanging onto orthodoxy. This was around the time of the big OCA scandal. This was the Obama years and orthodoxy wasn’t “saving western culture” from the black president enough for his tastes.

But he couldn’t bring himself to cross the Tiber because “yuck Mexicans!”

He was very divorced, as these kinds of dudes often are.

I think he ended up being one of the regulars at that blog Mono something or the other. The blogger was a Greek guy who went to the OCA because the Greeks were too liberal. I’m sure all of these people went fully Trumpy in 2016.

He was flat out rude and terrible to every woman who tussled with him online, that was mostly the catholic apologist women.

But he would switch on a dime when a “lady” showed up. A “lady” was a married woman with many kids who checked all of the right boxes. One of those boxes being not disagreeing with him.

I still remember this years ago because it was so telling for me. How you were treated as a woman was conditional. Men’s authenticity was accepted as a given. “He’s a character!” “He’s not PC!” Compared to “She’s a b*tch!” “She’s a liberal!”

Then on the other side, the women would put themselves out there for inspection. “Look at me! I’m one of the good ones!” And “A man agreed with me! I must be smart!” This is a perfect example of the male-centered nature of traditional religion. Women are taught to compete for positive male attention. It’s the ultimate validation.

And then there were the women who argued with him. These were mostly catholic. They put up with a lot of abuse. I think this is another form of the male-centered dynamics. There was the implied acceptance that being verbally abused by a man was normal and acceptable. But also it’s a kind of lack of boundaries. You’re not allowed to hold yourself back and protect yourself from men like that. And the pain is all well and good because you’re doing god’s work by arguing for the “right” church.

I often describe my time in orthodoxy as feeling like I was constantly banging my head against the wall. This is how it supposed to go. You have issues in the church with the doctrine, or the people, or the priest, whatever. You try all of the things. You might even try another parish. Then you finally see the light. *You* are the problem. It was always you. You need to change.

I did all of the things. I visited monasteries. I prayed the hours. I tried being a crunchy homeschooling mom. I tried baking sourdough bread. I read the books, theology and the feel-good spirituality ones. I attended all the liturgies. In order to make all of *this* work, I needed to change. The institution wasn’t going to change. This part of the rule is true. I would have to change to make it work.

But the second part of the rule wasn’t true. I wasn’t the problem. The institution is the problem. In the years since I’ve left, I’ve thought about how some people make this work when I couldn’t. I think I always had a very strong sense of self that wouldn’t submit. I was Orthodox long enough to know the retort to that. That strong sense of self was pride.

I read an article with interviews of people who left QAnon. One of the interviewees described how QAnon fell apart for him when one of the drops was about some tech thing. He worked in computers and knew that could not be true.

The thing that I personally knew was false was the role of women. I can’t describe it. I never felt less than a man. Was this because I was raised in a good family by parents who loved and respected each other? Maybe? Or was it always something that was a part of me? My personality? I think personality plays a huge role here. Some people have a personality that always fits in authoritarianism. I suspect some men have the same prideful strong sense of self that I did. But that was rewarded in orthodoxy so it was never identified as a flaw that needed to be fixed. Rather it was a virtue.

My problems:
Prideful - Check. Yes, I’ve accomplished many things in my life and I’m proud of them.
Ego - Check. Yes, I’m probably smarter and better educated than most of the cult members.
Not “first among sinners.” Check. This one is so ridiculous. My “sins” are not equal to those of Adolf Eichmann and Jeffrey Epstein.
Legalistic - Check. This is a funny one. When you try to make sense of the bizarro theology, you are accused of “legalism.” The whole squishy, constantly changing “economia” thing isn’t supposed to be legalism. I do have a strong sense of right and wrong which was not dependent on whatever some hierarch decided.

Aunts is a reference to the Handmaid’s Tale.

I want to discuss the way that women police other women in conservative religions. There is the idea that the menfolk (the holy priests, blah blah blah) are just too busy to deal with all of the messy women stuff, with all of our bleeding, hysteria, and emotions. We are so yucky. So other women must step in to keep their sisters in line. I coined a phrase for this phenomenon, “sistered-in-Christ-ed,” after watching this play out on facebook once. A group of good, holy orthodox women were lecturing an older, non-white, husbandless (suspicious!) woman about proper political beliefs. They talked down to her and ignored her points with the cherry on top that they were her “sisters in Christ.”

There was unspoken rule against complaining about husbands. I once belonged to an online forum where there was a specific rule against complaining about husbands. This is because the answer is always, “girl, leave your husband!” But no, we can’t do that so don’t complain about your worthless husband. Let’s discuss lentil soup recipes instead.

I remember a few tragic examples from old orthodox women’s online forums of women dragged into orthodoxy by their worthless husbands. They needed to leave their husbands but no one could tell them the obvious. You must learn to submit. He has a p&nis so god wants him to tell you what to do.

I remember on a Catholic women’s forum, someone dared to express worry about being pregnant again which lead to a few comments about struggling with natural family planning. It was quickly shut down. No - we mustn’t discuss how dumb rules made by men actually hurt us.

There was a big scandal in the conservative catholic homeschooling world when a few prominent women supported their gay children. The good, holy women cracked down. No, you mustn’t do that!

I remember how the parish men’s group only did social activities which always involved drinking. The women’s group always had to do something productive when we met. Idle women hands! The implicit assumption here being that there’s something suspicious about women gathering together so there had to be a reason for it.

How did you experience the Aunts when you were still in the cult?

What terrible advice did you get? Here is my list. I think most of these will apply to any high demand religion. Thankfully I was too prideful and ignored most of these.

1. A priest told me to never apologize to my children.
2. Several priests recommended “Train Up Your Child” by the Pearls, aka the “how to beat your kids” book. One priest was such a fan of this book that he sold it in the parish bookstore.
3. Pull your children out of school for every feast day.
4. if you send your children to public school, you want the state to raise them.
5. Homeschool is always better than public school.
6. Don’t let your children become friends with non-Orthodox kids.
7. Make your children be quiet and stand still during long liturgies.

Overall, we were supposed to be very controlling, authoritative parents who would any means to force our children to stay orthodox.
This is in addition to the bad theology taught in the church. Teaching your children that they are bad. Teaching your daughters that they should be good, quiet girls while their brothers get to be altar boys.

I’ve been both and I’ve been asked which is worse. I can only speak to this in an American setting.

On a practical, day to day basis, orthodoxy is worse. Catholic Churches are so big that it’s easy to avoid the culty things. Priests are too busy to be involved in your business.

But in terms of harm caused to the planet, Catholicism is way worse. It justified the exploitation of entire continents, genocide, and cultural genocide. It cozied up to some of the worst dictators in history.

I always think it’s hilarious when orthodox bring up the mythical story of the Alaskan native martyred by the Catholics. The Alaskan native practicing Russian religion - what’s colonial about that?

I don’t debate religion with people. It’s playing against the house. You can never win because they put their thumb on the scale.

For example, since Dobbs there have been many terrible stories of women harmed by anti-choice legislation. But pro-life people have all of the excuses ready to go. It’s the doctor’s fault. It’s the hospital’s fault. It’s a lie. It’s never the fault of a flawed understanding of how childbirth works. It can’t be that things don’t work the way they are supposed to all of the time.

What I say to anti-choice people is own it. Say that it’s okay that women suffer because that’s what you actually believe as icky as that may seem.

I saw one of those cringy videos from the recent Turning Point conference where a woman was complaining about the term “church hurt.” That’s a perfect example of the thumb on the scale. The “church” can’t be wrong. You must blame individuals.

And because individuals are always to blame for all of the bad things, it’s always your fault. Church didn’t work for you? It’s your fault and maybe Sally’s fault too. But not a toxic system that upholds the patriarchy.

You know that famous mythical story about how a single mother came to the church but was dressed inappropriately and was turned away and the priest admonished the usher (or whoever) and said he would need to spend the rest of his life atoning for driving that poor woman from the church. Sounds nice, right? A classic feel good/feel bad story. Of course we know it’s not a true story. But did the usher act all by himself or did he listen to endless sermons about proper attire? Did he listen to many sermons about how women should dress more modestly? But not, it’s just his fault and he must atone.

A feel good/feel bad story just like we see all over social media. Like how teachers donated their PTO to a peer who had cancer. Sounds nice, right? But why doesn’t the teacher with cancer have the ability to take paid time off to be treated?

One of my favorite podcasts is Conspirituality. I highly recommend it to anyone who has spent time in a cult which includes all of us here. One of the hosts has been doing a series about Pope Leo’s encyclical about AI. The last episode delved into how Pope Leo can’t bring himself to go full Marxist. (I won’t link because it’s behind a paywall.) He says all of the nice things and we all applaud Leo. At least he’s not a fascist. But he can’t go beyond saying that billionaires should be nicer to poor people.

One of the things I realized after leaving patriarchal religions (Catholic, then Orthodox, then back to Catholic and now agnostic) is how male centered it is.

During the liturgy, you watch the performance on stage of the priest, deacons, and altar boys.

The great hero Jesus and his band of male followers and some tag along women who take care of them.

The drama over bishops.

I remember the phrase “saints and women saints” from my Catholic days.

The men create the perfect woman (the theotokos) and tell of the women that we should emulate her.

Obey your husband.

The little boys going on and on about theology.

I never realized how much this hurt me until I left. Men are the real people and women are defective, second-rate humans. Our role is to be supportive, to be their audience and tell them how smart they are.

I was raised a Catholic, converted to Orthodoxy, reverted to Catholicism, and now I’m not religious. I’ve been out about 5 years.

I did not realize until recently how much I was personally hurt as a woman in these patriarchal churches.

I was never full Aunt Lydia but I was one of those women who said that I didn’t mind that I couldn’t be a priest or serve in the altar. I didn’t want to be those things anyway and Jesus was a man, right?

What I see now is that I needed these institutions to be right so I discounted my own rights.

A few years ago I attended a religious ceremony officiated by a woman and it hit me. I had missed so much by being in churches that did not my respect me because of my gender.

And I know the whole “Theotokos is above priests” thing. It’s such backhanded praise. When you’re a nice, quiet, motherly woman, you’re okay. Men are the norm and we women are essentially deficient men. That’s the idea behind god being a man. Man are the norm so god has to be the norm.

When actually gender means nothing. Men can nurture children. Not all women are nurturers. Not all women can bear children.

In some ways, I feel sorry for the Orthobros listening to priests telling them how to be masculine. Twisting themselves in knots trying to be something that they can’t ever be. They would find much more happiness in life as an egalitarian husband and father. I only feel sorry for them a little bit though because they are willing participants in a system that hurts women and children who are much more hurt.

The real eye-opener for me was meeting some trans people. It made me question all of the ideas about gender that I’d internalized. I’m a cis straight woman. The rules always worked for me. I didn’t let nonsense about women stop me from getting an education and a career. I was never a good enough orthodox woman - oh well…

I had been raised in an egalitarian home but my time in Catholicism and America made me internalize misogyny and center men.

There is no choice besides walking away. My kids go to catholic school and I like Pope Leo so far. But there’s no going back for me. Pope Leo can say the nice things about Trump being garbage and we need to be nice to LGBTQ people. But he still thinks women are lesser because he doesn’t think they can hold his job. They fight against women having bodily autonomy.

There is no reconciling that. If women are full human beings, you have to give us the rights to control our own bodies.

So there is no “liberal” Orthodoxy. There might be nicer Orthodoxy. If you are not egalitarian and completely welcoming of LGBTQ+ people, then you are not liberal and the “nicer” orthodoxy will always uphold colonialism, the patriarchy, racism, etc.

I’ve been out about 5 years. I cut most of the people out of my life so I’ve been out of the loop on what they’ve been up to. But I just came across some disturbing content on Instagram. Back when we were members, many of the people were involved in MLMs. Now some of these people are posting content about sales with no description of what they are selling. The priest appears to be some kind of Christian wealth coach.

This is where it’s come to. The contrarianism, “the rules don’t apply to me,” etc.

This is so gross.

Has this become a thing recently in Orthodox circles? I know it’s the Wild West, where each priest and church pretty much does their own thing.