u/CulturalWind357

[List] Artists and genres which have received criticism or are dismissed due to perceived proximity to whiteness?

A while back, I was responding to a thread about how many artists get dismissed due to perceived fanbase.

And it really occurred to me that a number of genres and artists have been criticized on the basis of being associated with whiteness, or at least a perceived association.

Some examples:

  • Over the years, we've had various threads discussing how rock music became predominantly associated with white people for various reasons. Either Black artists took the "Roll" from Rock n' Roll and moved on to soul, funk, disco, and hip-hop. Or, the segregation of music meant Black artists were pushed out of rock's legacy. Or both.
  • Elvis' legacy. I think most music fans can agree that Elvis benefited from his whiteness and had a lot of advantages that Black artists didn't have. But it gets reduced to "Elvis stole Black music". It's not always clear if white artists practicing Black musical styles is the issue or is it the advantages white artists have.
  • People have noted that by the time Jimi Hendrix passed away, he was perceived as operating in a "white" genre or seeming like a novelty. Even though one could connect his legacy to say, Funkadelic. To an extent, this has affected Black rock artists and bands differently as they're seen as relative anomalies like Living Color and Bad Brains.
  • There have also been threads discussing why country music is an easy musical target. Many music fans will say they listen to anything "except country". While there are a variety of reasons, I think the reputation of whiteness with country may play a part.
  • Motown music is beloved but it's also seen as too poppy, polished, and appealing to White audiences.
  • The legacy of disco has come under some dispute. On the one hand, disco's legacy is becoming more appreciated for its massive influence on music afterwards and being a bastion for Black and Queer audiences. And people generally condemn Disco Demolition Night. On the other hand, it's been pointed out that disco received criticism from Black artists for being a watered-down version funk. That there was a rising backlash to disco from Black artists. Though that also gets into the discussion that Black artists aren't a monolith of opinion.
  • I also think about the example of Tracy Chapman. Even though there were Black artists who existed in the singer-songwriter space and precedents such as Odetta or Bessie Smith, singer-songwriters like Chapman were often seen as appealing to white audiences. There was a quote from Chuck D of Public Enemy:“Black people cannot feel Tracy Chapman if they got beat over the head with it thirty thousand times. I like to take what Tracy Chapman's about but only once my funk's in place because if you don't have your funk in place, you're not going to get the masses of Black people.”

I'm sure a longer post could be written about the tensions between Black musical movements and how it may complicate some of the narratives of continuity (Blues, Jazz, Gospel, R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, Hip-Hop, etc.)

A passage from Jack Hamilton's book Just around Midnight: Rock and Roll and the Racial Imagination:

"The fact that this new brand of musical whiteness so depended on white performers’ proximity to and fluency within black musical styles left black musicians themselves in a precarious position. Whereas artists like Bob Dylan, the Rolling Stones, and Janis Joplin were lauded for casting off the shackles of racial conformity, artists like those at Detroit’s Motown Records, whose R&B-to-pop crossover formula was the most significant American musical achievement of the decade, were often derided for being insufficiently black*.*

As the 1960s wore on, cosmopolitan versatility among black artists was not heard as identity transcendence but rather as racial betrayal, in accusations that were frequently lobbed by white critics. Again, perhaps the most tortuous example of this was Jimi Hendrix, who during his career was judged by many as a fraud or sellout, his blackness rendering his music as inauthentically rock at the same time that his music rendered his person as inauthentically black. By contrast, the very act of imaginatively engaging with historically black musical forms while keeping black bodies at arm’s length became a newly powerful way of being white."

To be clear: I can understand criticizing artists and questioning the way in which systemic racism has permeated society and benefited white artists. The issue of cultural appropriation and Black artists being denied credit has to be handled sensitively. These are important issues. This isn't a thread about how white artists are secretly oppressed so much as examining the role of whiteness in shaping our views of artists and genres.

But at times, arguments can get muddled where criticism leads to a sense of reductionism. That Black music is one way while White music is another. And it eventually loops around to affecting Black artists as well.

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u/CulturalWind357 — 21 hours ago

Is there a consensus on where Bruce sits on the "Late career: good or bad" question?

In a number of music discussions, people ask common questions like "Why is later work generally weaker than earlier work? Which artists have a strong late career?"

The expectation being that artists are generally hungrier and more ambitious when they're younger and then stagnate as they get older. Therefore, it's normal for artists to have their earlier work be considered their best.

When it comes to artists with strong late careers, I usually hear names like Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, David Bowie, Scott Walker, Björk, etc.

Where do you think Bruce sits in this discussion? I know there are some divided opinions about his career whether it be:

  • "Nothing was the same after WIESS."
  • "Nothing was the same after Tunnel Of Love."
  • "Albums are less relevant but live performances have continued to improve."
  • Also the question on how much Bruce is relying on his past work's legacy compared to his peers.

Me personally?

On the one hand, I think it's hard to top the legacy of Bruce's first 8 albums. Those are how he built his identity and evolved over several years. From the Jersey Shore street poet to the muscle bound superhero, that was quite a journey.

On the other hand, I've noticed that there are ways he's gotten more experimental whether it be the production on his albums or his live performances. His views have gradually evolved. I think Western Stars is a strong album. And while not every post-reunion album is consistent, there are some good ones. And some gems of tracks like Paradise, Swallowed Up In The Belly Of The Whale, Devil's Arcade. Iconic pop songs like Girls In Their Summer Clothes, Anthems like Wrecking Ball...

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u/CulturalWind357 — 6 days ago
▲ 106 r/LetsTalkMusic+1 crossposts

For those who were around in the mid-70s, what was the vibe when Bruce Springsteen first blew up?

Did he actually feel like a 'working-class hero' back then, or was he just another handsome guy on the radio? Was there a divide between people who saw his live shows and those who only heard the singles?

Did his fame feel earned or did it feel like the media was trying too hard to make him 'the next big thing'? or the next dylan?

Interested in hearing first hand accounts. All welcome thank you

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u/CulturalWind357 — 13 days ago

Exactly how significant was the "Music to dance to" vs "Music to think/listen to" divide? How much relevance does it hold now?

It seems like I've seen this divide described across various genres from jazz (the development of Bebop) to rock to electronic music (e.g. Trip-Hop or IDM). There may be more examples.

Basically, a trajectory of a genre or collection of genres once being a form of dance music until the artists wanted to branch out creatively.

The connotation often being that dance music is more physical and communal but the artists wanted to become creative in a more individualist and intellectual fashion. Either making music that made listeners sit down and think more deeply, or pushing complexity in some fashion so that dancing isn't the priority. Some denigration of dance music involved as well (Disco being the most famous example, at least in the states).

My first thought is that it feels like some false dichotomies are at play: music can be danceable and have depth, there are dance styles which precisely revolve around complex rhythms, dancers are artists as well who can derive inspiration from different kinds of music.

But I'm not entirely sure how to unpack this whole history and why people thought in those ways. Or whether this divide was that significant or is it exaggerated. Hence the OP.

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u/CulturalWind357 — 13 days ago