u/GlitteringBird2763

Hey everyone, I wanted to make a post about current debates on Loki and how he was stated by many to be stronger than old gens, that old gens were powercliffed and that they were outdated by a long time.

I won't talk at all in this thread about wether or not Loki was actually stronger than Harald, or wether or not his current feats against Imu matter for scaling him and comparing him to old gen cause that isn't the issue I want to talk about, I want to talk about powercreep.

So what is powercreep ?

Powercreep, or power inflation is a phenomenon where newly introduced elements in a long running story, or video game, characters, abilities, items, for example, are systematically more powerful than previous ones, and this happens for several reasons:

> Maintainging stakes : antagonists or allies must pose a credible threat or provide meaningful aid to protagonists at their current level. If Luffy can now obliterate islands with a flick of his wrist, his future opponents must at least match that.

> Avoiding redundancy, reusing power levels that have already been explored would feel stagnant and boring to the audience, if the new arc main antagonist in big 2026 was someone on the level of Dressrosa Doflamingo it would be underwhelming.

> Keeping the audience hooked, oda has to keep making the power system of his story go higher and higher, that's why we have seen the rise of awakened fruits, mythical zoan, gear 5 or stronger and wider use of haki

The result of all this is newer characters appearing a lot stronger than other, because they need to exceed previous standards.

But does that mean they are strictly stronger than old ones ? Not necessarily.

Let’s take a concrete example:

Rocks was introduced as the strongest pirate of his era, he was also shown to rival harald and then loki was shown to be possibly stronger than Harald, meaning he was also stronger than Rocks.

But comparing their raw power currently without context is like comparing a modern tank to an antiquity warrior based on their ability to crush walls, that wouldn't make much sense.

Rocks was the strongest in an era where haki use was still rare outside of top tiers, awakening of fruits was not shown at all, and there was no pacifistas or seraphims.

Loki on the other hand lived through an era with all that, so he isn't objectively stronger than Rocks, he just exists in a context where characters have to show more power.

But that's not all, old characters do evolve too, and this is one of the most important, yet ver much overlooked point.

As long as they're relevant to the story, deceased or absent characters benefit from retcon or implicit scaling.

There a few examples of that : Shanks was shown in chap one to be surprised by a smoke bomb, whereas in recent chapters he was shown seeing in the future.

Crocodile was bested by a pre gear 2 Luffy, and is currently shown to rival some top tiers.

Each time we see a Roger flashback he showcases more and more power.

Powercreep doesn't mean old characters are nerfed, it means their potential has to be re-evaluated to fit the evolving world.

So why does Loki seem so much stronger ?

First of all there is the famous recency bias, oda has to generate hype with new characters, they are narrative tools to showcase where lies the current power level of the story, they generate hype by having gigantic strength (pun intended), but we don't know their limits yet, we have yet to see them compared to characters we know more of.

Loki's only feat are against another character that's still shrouded in mistery so we lack the context to properly scale them, loki is likely among the strongest, but that doesn't mean he's above all past legends without debate.

As long as a character, even if he's dead, stays relevant to the story they will keep being upscaled, and the old legends, which current characters keep speaking of as the strongest, will still be relevant for a long time.

Some other examples are :

> Frieza in db going from the strongest, to jobber, to strong again to jobber again.

> Madara being the absolute biggest threat in naruto, untill kaguya and every otsutsuki from boruto.

> Aizen being the absolute threat of bleach and then being outclassed by Aizen.

Yet no one says they are weak, their lore and feats remain intact, powercreep is about context, not absolute hierarchy.

So how can we properly scale Loki ?

Well to avoid wanking him, and downplaying other characters for no reason we have to wait for him to show feats properly scalable, which currently is not the case.

You have to consider narrative scaling to and accept that powercreep is part of the game, new characters have to be shown as the strongest, untill they aren't anymore and old characters lore are expanded to fit the narrative.

TL;DR:

Loki seems stronger than old gen legends because powercreep dictates that new characters push the limits, but this doesn’t mean past legends are weaker, they evolve too, via retcons and flashbacks, and their scaling are adjusted to fit the current era.

Powecreep is a narrative, not an absolute hierarchy.

Thanks for reading !

https://preview.redd.it/dh37h5uamn2h1.png?width=300&format=png&auto=webp&s=075031384a4bb5099432df0517f422bf5ee7b30a

Hello everyone, today I will try to tackle one of the greatest powerscaling debate of one piece : Shanks vs Mihawk, and with the most open mind and good faith possible try to solve it.

First of all let's start at the beginning, Shanks and Mihawk are two of the most liked characters in the one piece world, they are both shown to have immense strength and used to be rivals, but fans of one piece always wondered and debated on who was actually the strongest, and even though Oda never actually gave an answer about this, there are a few elements in the manga that leans towards Shanks actually being the stronger fighter.

Let's start this thread by tackling the title issue, Mihawk currently has the title of world's strongest swordsman, it has been shown multiple time in the manga, ever since his first appearance, this is not something up to debate.

Chapter 50

What could be debated though his how, and when he got his title, so let's go back to the era of rivalry between him and Shanks.

https://preview.redd.it/hzw33nnal92h1.png?width=950&format=png&auto=webp&s=eaa3f774fd7bdbfdf534786148f623cae38bb68c

Even whitebeards qualifies their duel as legendary, we do not actually know if this duel had a winner what we do know is that their rivalry wasn't actually settle as Mihawk himselfs says when he meets Shanks on chapter 96

Chapter 96

Mihawk says he won't settle things with Shanks now that he lost an arm, implying they never really got to decide on a clear winner between them, and now that Shanks has lost an arm Mihawk's pride keeps him from fighting him anymore since he thinks Shanks got weaker.

Lots of interesting things lie there, let's go back to their duels, it has been said they fought a lots of time, and once again implied they never really settle who was the strongest, the panel where Mihawk goes to see Shanks, and Shanks's reactions to him coming implies he's used to Mihawk coming to challenge him.

That would mean Mihawk was actually the one challenging Shanks to prove who was the strongest between them, and he stopped doing so when Shanks lost his arm.

Mihawk being the one to challenge Shanks implies Shanks is the person Mihawk is aiming to beat.

Let's remind everyone that Shanks lost his arm 10 years prior to the beginning of the story meaning the last fight between the two is currently at least 12 years old.

(I want to insist on this, I've seen lots of people wanting to jab at shanks for his performance in the first chapters, getting surprised by a smoke bomb, losing an arm to a sea king, well that's the Shanks that was Mihawk equals, so if you take this as a Shanks downscale it's also a Mihawk downscale.)

This leads me to an answer to one of our previous questions : how did Mihawk gain his title ?

Well to me that's simple, he stopped fighting his rival, considering him weaker since he lost an arm, and thus was considered the winner of their rivalry, earning him his title, the title might have been giving to him by Morgans actually, that would explain why everyone on the op world knows about it.

This is further supported by the fact that Mihawk doesn't have any strong adversaries to fight after Shanks, when we first hear about him, he's roaming the grand line bullying weak crews, and getting challenged by wannabee swordsmen whom he destroys.

Meaning after Shanks and Mihawk stopped fighting and dueling, there was not anymore good opponents for mihawk, this leads to him being detached from everything, roaming the grand line on a one man ship and destroying eak crew, he has lost his goal and his opponent, he reached the top without actually owning it in his eyes, and became hollow

Another thing leaning towards this is Mihawk's reaction to seeing Zoro, he's used to being challenged by swordsmen aiming at his title, and ruining them, but something in Zoro interests him, he sees his potential and it sparks something in him, he finally found someone who might be worth fighting.

Another key point in this is the lack of really strong swordsmen in op, supported by the fact that current zoro has beat everyone of his opponent while not reaching Mihawk's strength yet, most swordsmen in op are bums, and the only one that could be currently considered really strong besides Mihawk are Zoro, and Vista.

Vista which Mihawk fought once and hasn't been shown to be really superior to.

A parrallel to Mihawk and Shanks's situation could be made with Zoro and Mihawk, imagine if Mihawk where to lose an arm or a leg, Zoro would be devastated that he couldn't have bested Mihawk while he was at the top, and wouldn't want to beat him anymore, since it would tarnish his win anyways.

Well this is exactly what happened with Mihawk and Shanks, which led Mihawk to feel empty and hollow.

Does that mean that he was actually right in stopping to fight Shanks, thinking he got weaker ?

Needless to say Shanks got a lot stronger since then, even if he lost his arm (which has kind of been retconned as a willing choice to get rid of Imu's covenant) his swordsmanship might have grown weaker from it but his overall strength has grown a lot.

Anyone denying that is showing bad faith, Shanks became an emperor, stopped many threats, such as Loki for example, was able to rival the yonkos, and even whitebeard.

So first of all Mihawk gaining his title over shanks was not a proof he was stronger than him, it might just have been a proof that Mihawk's mastery of the sword surpassed Shank's since the latter lots his arm.

https://preview.redd.it/cwf54thfk92h1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=902a3ff0557029c62ee6233c93882e3fde5ec250

We are actually told that Mihawk's swords skill is above that of Shanks, and there is no denying this too, but everything about their portrayal implies Shanks did compensate the lost of his arm, and the weakening of his sword skill by other means, namely Haki.

Let's then attack a second major point in this post : Haki.

Shanks has been, since the start of the series, and the introduction of haki, shown to be one of the strongest users of it there is

Chapter 434

And this goes all the way back to chapter 434 when Shanks went to WB's ship and knocked out most of his crew, a parallel can be made with when Mihawk went to Shanks's island to confront him

Chapter 96

Most of the bums of Shanks crew are frightened of Mihawk, scared that he will destroy them, but see the lack of Haki use ? Why wouldn't Mihawk use his acoc to just knock them out like Shanks did ?

This has a simple explanation : he doesn't have it.

Let's explain this, there are proof in the manga that Mihawk has armament haki

Chapter 779

He taught it to zoro, he knows it and definitely uses it since his blade is a black blade, he might actually be one of the best users of it in the manga, which would just add to his mastery of the blade.

Chapter 561

Mihawk has also been shown to have observation, in marineford he uses it to catch luffy.

But Mihawk is not showing any use of conqueror's haki whatsoever, he doesn't use it on Shank's island he doesn't use it in marineford, he doesn't teach it to zoro, he doesn't even talk to him about it and that's just because he doesn't have it

But for acoc there could be a really simple explanation as to why he doesn't have it.

It has been said countless of times that to have acoc you have to have the will and mind of a conqueror, every characters that has it has been shown to possess this.

Mihawk has no reason to show such character, he has reached the pinnacle of his swordsmanship already, he has beat every opponent he deemed worthy of him, and his only real rival his, in his mind, out of order, he has nothing to dominate left and has been shown to have a laidback personality, not engaging in anything and just wanting to be left alone to chill in his island.

Even though he might have awakened conqueror in the past, there is no reason anymore for him to awaken it.

So by these standards, even though he might be a more skilled swordsman, and maybe even more proficent at armament than Shanks, he's seriously lacking in the other 2 haki proficency.

Lastly let's go over feats :

Mihawk's only real feat in the manga, is his title, which we debunked, and his rivalry with shanks, this is actually why no one is actually able to scale mihawk without scaling Shanks.

Only thing he has done yet his bully weaklings, and his marineford actions, which we need to speak of.

Chapter 553

At marineford Mihawk says he wants to see for himself the distance between him and Whitebeard, he puts himself in a stance where he's definitely not his equal, he knows he's weaker, but wants to see how much.

Chapter 553

Then he immediatly gets stopped by Jozu, as if whitebeard didn't even need to stop him himself, if anything, this shows the gap between the two men his enormous.

But Shanks is not the same, a hundred chapters before he clashed equally with whitebeard, the two men are definitely not shown as equals anymore.

Then there's the Vista incident

Chapter 561

Mihawk is shown to be on equal terms with Vista, for the few hit they exchange, and they both agree to postpone the match, I'm don't think Vista would've been able to beat Mihawk, but he held him, he stopped him and was strong enough to make him stop chasing Luffy, showing he is not as far from Mihawk as we'd think, this downscales Mihawk a lot, whhen we compare this feat to how Shanks was able to one shot Kid, who is definitely stronger than someone who's just a Whitebeard commander.

Then there's every other proof, I don't like bounty scaling, but Shanks's bounty is superior, Shanks is a Yonko when Mihawk was a warlord, Shanks has been countinuously upscaled through and through while Mihawk stagnated.

So this is the end of my analysis, to me there is no doubt that current Shanks is stronger than current Mihawk, they don't play in the same category anymore, and anyone holding on to Mihawk's title to prove otherwise just choses to ignore every other aspect of the manga disproving it.

Thanks for reading !

https://preview.redd.it/a55a4k3m1a2h1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=437a4f350b1208ac19080a39cec68cc67883ce70

So currently the whole world of powerscaling is upside down because of Loki's flashback, it lead to people thinking old gen was powercliffed, and ranking characters such as Loki, Shanks Mihawk or even admirals above old legends, hell even current top tier are no thought by some to be bums.

But let's review where this comes from, most powerscaling nowadays are based on the assumption that :

- Base rocks and Harald are equal, this is absolutely true, nothing to say about it

- Base rocks is stronger than GV garp and roger, also true

But here comes the bs.

- DR, or even base rocks scales higher than prime garp, roger or white beard.

This is not supported by anything, all we know is GV garp and roger allied to beat DR rocks, but we don't know how much stronger they got in their prime.

- HK Harald also scales higher than prime garp roger or whitebeard.

Once again this only works based on the precedent statement, who still can't be verified.

- Loki beat HK Harald completely fair and square.

This is the most stupid one in my opinion, all we see in the manga is 9 panels where Loki and Harald exchange exactly one hit, then Harald stops fighting back whatsoever and end ups asking Loki to kill him.

This has been debated a lot, some people will say Harald was possessed the entire fight, I disagree, but even if he was, the fight lasted minutes at best, you can't seriously be scaling Loki based on it, it is definitely not a good source for powerscaling.

The amount of mental gymnastics Loki wankers will use to justify this being a fair fight and thus a good way to scale Loki, but Loki vs Shanks being a sneak or a jump is ridiculous af.

Therefore, reading the manga with a sound mind, if we were to scale every character mentioned before it would give something like this :

Prime Roger ≃ Prime Garp ≃ Prime whitebeard > DR Rocks ≃ HK Harald > Rocks ≃ Harald > Shanks > Loki.

And everything makes sense again.

Thanks for reading !

Where the fuck does the assumption that Shanks either sneaked on Loki or jumped him with his whole crew but did not beat him in a 1v1 whatsoever ?

It is literally stated in the manga that Shanks was the only one who was able to stop Loki, nothing else is stated, of course anything is possible, but until proven otherwise the only thing we know for certain is that shanks stopped him.

So why are we scaling Loki on an assumption that exists only in his wankers headcannon ?