u/Individual_Sir_2595

The Discovery of the Bookbags

I was lucky enough to speak with Terry Fleming about his experience. I know that I am not the first person that reported on many of these details, but I do hope that I’m able to add some details and context that others may find useful. I’m thankful for that initial discussion that was had (not mine). It led me to pick up the phone again. And it led me to speak to an individual that I’ve grown fond of in Terry. I am making this a separate thread because I would prefer this be used as a reference to my account as opposed to the spoken one on either my platform or Crack House Chronicles podcast. I believe you will get some added information and perspective from the podcast previously shared and I love chatting with those guys, but I just view this as something separate. The opinion that I have formed on Terry through our conversations may sway my opinion some, because I do really like him, so understand that going in. I’m not asking you to believe it because I say it, but I am going to try and describe it as objectively as possible. Some of this may serve as a correction to some of the things I may have previously said on it, but, again, I would prefer this be the reference point on it moving forward if you have questions about what was said to me.

I’m not sure this disclaimer is needed, but please make your own decisions about anything said and ask any questions that you may have. As always, it was hard to decide what to tell and what not to tell, but I have tried to approach it as delicately as possible with the understanding that law enforcement has not released certain details in the past and likely made that decision for a specific reason. I know me telling you what he said is not ideal, and requires you to trust my opinion and interpretation, but I’ll do what I can to share that experience.

Terry is somebody who is led by faith. It’s infectious. He believes this will be solved during his life. His confidence and unwavering belief that it will be solved has had an impact on me. It was what I needed at the right time. Terry was generous of his time and stories. As a lawyer, not everyone treats you as a person. Certain stereotypes come with that and Terry has had his own negative lawyer experiences, but it didn’t stop him from connecting with me on a human level. He made an impact, truly, in the way that I’ve approached life since. I know you are reading this to know more about what he discovered in 2001, but I’ll never forget the sincerity and genuineness that I felt in his words toward me on a more personal level. I want to do better, to be better, and it has made an impact on the way that I have lived my life since. Terry’s story is such an important one. Asha should always be the center, but I hope that we can still show human decency and support to all of those people who have been brave enough to step up and give information, while understanding that the events he is describing happened 25 years ago.

**Location**

Terry was doing excavation work on a property right on 18. He notes it was just before you got to a store up further toward Morganton in a curve and that a rock quarry had placed a rock on the opposite side of the road close to the location. He couldn’t remember the exact address, though the description seems to match with a popular former Reddit post. Terry, in preparation for the work, had thought a power line needed to be moved and had discussed with the power company. He came by to look at the job a few weeks before starting work. He noticed then that the right of way crew had not been through yet. In early August, he was performing his excavation work, and by that time he knew they had come out to clear the right of way. He knew this because there was evidence left behind in the roadway and in the area he was clearing. He noticed that the trash bags, one within the other, were laying on top of the area that had since been cleared. He believes this to be a clear indication that the bag was left after the power company had done their work. That theory makes sense, and he has good reason for it, though I imagine other possibilities could still explain a different timeline. He noted that he suggested to law enforcement that they reach out to the power company to see exactly when the area had been cleared, because he believed that would further narrow the timeline on when the bag was discarded. He described the spot the bags were found as about 15 foot off the road where it comes to the first plateau. He notes it was a “good spot for somebody to throw them”, because he didn’t believe anyone would have expected them to build a homesite where he was on the side of a mountain. Part of what he and is crew were known for was clearing areas where nobody had gone before. His instinct, based on the location and positioning, was that the items were thrown out while “coming back” toward Shelby.

He also talked about how much the landscape has changed since then. He said material was taken from the mountain and moved around afterward, so the terrain today doesn’t fully resemble what was there in 2001, a detail that could be important if you are looking at the current landscape.

**The Discovery**

Ultimately, he was clearing debris to build a road on the side of the mountain. After noticing the trash bag, he went to move it and he noticed it landed funny. He had plenty of experience with trash bags being thrown out off the road, but something about the way the bag hit struck him. His crew worried it may have been a dead animal, but he felt it was too heavy to be trash though not heavy enough to be a dead animal. He took the teeth from his track hoe, noting the bags were not degraded and still strong, but eventually he cut into them and things started coming out. The crew started using the shovels to see what was in it. In that process, they realized that something wasn’t right. Inside of the trash bags were a pair of bookbags. As they eventually cut into those bags, more items began spilling out. He notes that both “came open”, though one he remembers being more “open” than the other. He realized pretty quickly that something was wrong, as the things inside of the bags were too new to be thrown out. He believes that all of the items in the trash bags were initially in the book bags, with no loose items inside of the trash bags.

After cutting into it, he realized that it was double bagged, with the bags being tied on opposite ends, with the mouth of each facing in opposite directions. He wrote down the information from the “if found” call this number portion embroidered in the bags, where he believes it had written Asha J. Degree on one. The other, he says, had her brothers name on it. Both bags were a similar type, size, and color. They both shared the same address and number which led him to deduce that they were showing sibling names in the two bags. Both bags contained all girls stuff, which he found odd given the male name on one of the bags. He wrote the information on a business card. Later that night at dinner, he pulled the card and went to call the number. When he said the name, his wife realized who it was and told him to call law enforcement. After a lengthy process with the Burke Sheriff, they finally realized who he was calling about. At that point, they took it more seriously and instructed him to meet them out there the following morning. When there, they eventually instructed him to send the rest of his men home, but he was asked to help with machine operation in looking through various parts of the site.

**The Contents**

When we discussed the contents of the bags, I tried to be very careful not to lead him in any one direction on what may have been in the bag. For that reason, I don’t have many specifics, but that is probably consistent with what he remembers after all this time. It’s important to consider that with all of what he said, though I find many of the major details to be consistent and credible, I would caution taking too much meaning from any of the items that he specifically mentioned. I’ve given plenty of disclaimers, but so did he. He knows that the passage of time has impacted his ability to remember the details. He doesn’t have the benefit of pictures or videos that the investigative team likely has had to refresh his memory.

The first thing that he says struck him about the contents of the inside of the bags was the volume. He describes two bags that were full of stuff. He stated it was as if it were “everything she owned” in those bags. In one, he would describe it as mostly “utensils” and other little bags and compartments of a “little bit of everything.” Colored pencils, crayons, makeup and lipstick type sets are the specific things he mentioned. All of which he would describe as appropriate for a little girl and even distinguished that in both bags it was all girls stuff. “Everything little girls.” Nothing big and bulky like a woman would carry, but a “make believe compact” and other things he found consistent with what a girl of her age to carry. Some clothes he would say were in that bag, but he describes the other bag as being mostly clothes. Without detail, he says that the shirt and book that they have since said was not hers were in there. It is important to note that the excavator is what he used to look in and disrupt the bags. He says that he never touched them with his hands, though he does mention the people of his crew taking shovels to dig through from the bucket. For me, after the bags being cut into and disrupted, it is certainly possible that some things could have been mixed, but he seems to have a decent idea of the differences in the stuff in each bag.

We also talked about the condition of the clothing. I asked whether the clothes were “new” with tags, and Terry immediately corrected the idea in a way that made sense. He clarified that he was not describing brand “new”, just too new to be thrown out. But he described them as newer clothes, not worn out, still colorful, not faded from age or heavy use. He gave me a story of him going out to buy new school clothes when the old ones were worn and faded. These, he would characterize, were not in the worn and faded category. I don’t think he questioned whether or not the items belonged to her, though again that is only based on his perception (and my perception of his perception). He referred to them as hers throughout, routinely speaking about how she could not have owned many more things than what was in the bags. It also struck him how neatly the bags were packed. The clothes he would describe as neatly folded.

I asked him about school supplies. He noted paper, notebooks, schoolwork, pencils, a book or two, though he wouldn’t say an exact number, a few drawings, and other things that may be consistent with school supplies were in the bags. It was one of the rare areas that I asked him specifically about, though I’m not sure much could be deduced about any specific item.

He recalls that both trash bags were the same kind. Both black on the outside and he remembers them having a silverish color on the inside. He says they were both biodegradable, but were not showing signs of degrading.

One specific item stands out to him. He remembers some other things as I’ve mentioned, but it really is just one that has made the most impact on him. It was a frilly pair of ruffled edge socks. He remembers this vividly, and mentions it sticking with him to this day. It also gave him the uneasy feeling he would carry after and has provided his own source of connection to Asha and how real this situation was and is.

**The Aftermath**

The scene after was chaotic for a long time. He mentions the constant string of news and TV reports that were asking for updates and interviews. They continued coming even after they had returned to regular work. As has been mentioned, he was frustrated with the lack of accuracy in some of the stories. He remembers certain things and certain reporters that did left a bad impression, but he also remembers some that really stood out as a positive credit to their profession. He also remembers them coming to close to the job site, putting themselves and him in a dangerous position.

He says he was told and threatened by the FBI, that if he talked about what he had seen and obstructs the investigation, they would arrest him and take everything he owns. It’s not worth a lot of thought on this point, considering that it is not likely to be the same agents or officers, but I definitely find myself frustrated with this choice. While obstructing justice can be a crime, it is my opinion that him discussing what he experienced in that situation is definitely not that. That said, he describes most of his experience with law enforcement as positive. He described many of the officers and investigators as great men. In making that comment, I should probably add that Terry would not be as positive about Burke County Sheriff’s. Some of that comes from other experiences though.  

He completed the job after, noting that the area that the bag was found would look substantially different today. He described the area the bag was found at as now ten feet below the ground after he was finished with his work.

One of the biggest things I took away from the conversation was just how human his memories of this are. Not really polished or rehearsed. Just vivid little fragments that stayed with him for 25 years. The socks. The colors. The way the area looked at the time it was found. The controversy and drama with the media, different departments, and the things that were said coming out of it.

Whether every conclusion people draw from these details ends up being right or wrong, I think conversations like this matter because firsthand memories disappear over time.

I’m genuinely grateful Terry took the time to talk with me.

Two bags found to me put this whole mystery in a much different light. Changes my perception of credibility in a certain moment where this whole area went bezerk over search warrants and DNA. The why she left is so much more important with this discovery because it puts more emphasis on the home and family links.

Contractor Who Found The Bag

So I really didnt want to do this at all. I have been going back and forth with it, but I have been asked a few times if I reached out to the gentleman who found Asha's backpack. The answer is yes I did. And I spoke on the phone with him for almost an hour. But dont get too excited because I didnt get much, and after what he told me I dont blame him for not telling me. Let me explain. This mans entire life changed when he unearthed that that bag. He was never the same after that. He is torn up and devastated about this case and honestly has been treated like dogshit. After about 10 mins of conversation and just explaining who I was and what my goals were he finally opened up a little. He explained how he was treated very poorly by the feds and the Burke County Sheriffs departent. They bagered him, took multiple dna swabs and hair samples. He did countless interviews and lost money and work because he could no longer work on that job site. He was threatened by the FBI saying that if he gave any details out about the findings that he could face prison time. He said it was a very hard time for his family and himself. The only things he told me was where on hwy 18 (roughly) the job site was, how he found it, and what happened the days following his find. So it went like this:

He was working on an excavator digging inbetween the creek and the steep hill that started on the other side. He said it was not buried very deep at all. When he saw the trash bag it hit gave him a bad feeling. He took the bag and opened the 2, then seeing the backpack. He saw her name on the pack or on a card or something (i didn't fully understand it) and jotted it down. He said he had no cell service at that location. So he left the bag in the trash bag by a tree overnight and went home. He shared what happened with his wife (I assume the next morning) and when she asked what the name was she covered her mouth and gasped. She started crying and said "oh my God that's that little girl that went missing". They then called the Burke County Sheriffs office and were passed from person to person on the phone. Finally after several attempts someone in charge spoke with him, and told him to immediately go to the job site where the bag was and meet them. He said from there it was chaos. Media outlets lined hwy 18, cops everywhere and eventually from Quanitico and Charlotte the FBI showed up. I guess there was a big dispute between Burke county and Cleveland county as they Burke wanted the case because of the find in they're jurisdiction, and Cleveland wanted the case to stay with them. Obviously it was settled and Cleveland retained the case. He said he was interviewed by every news outlet, station, paper, and LE in the state and had to shut down his job. He told me he actually had to chase off reporters who were snooping around because his companies insurance wouldnt cover them if they got hurt. He said he had to draw maps and describe over and over again how he found the bag. Very hard on a man just trying to work and make a living in peace. Anyway nothing new at all really. And I didnt push any further. He was the nicest old man, you can tell his health is deteriorating but he was very nice and remembered alot of details. We talked about politics, religion is was honestly pretty cool and I hope to talk to him again. So yes I have spoke to him but his hands are tied. There's not much he can say or do. One thing he did say was that he never remembers any members of Asha's family coming to the crime scene at all, that struck him as odd. He said if that was my baby id be digging every inch of these woods up. Let's just hope that the FBI can get something going. I mean he described they're investigation as being very thorough and almost aggressive with tons of man hours put in. God bless that man. Very sad to hear him talk about it. So anyway the info we have is what we have. We wont get much else on the backpack...Sorry

We charge individuals with double homicide when an unborn child dies when its mother is killed, we put young men and women in prison for life for being a part of crime that results in death, we charge adults for contributing to the delinquency of minors, we charge people as accessories to crimes before and after it happens, when a child gets access to a gun we charge the owner or parent, when a child inadvertently gets out of the house whether they get injured, killed or not the guardian or parent is generally charged. But Asha Degree, by all reported accounts including her mother's, was a quiet normal child, " I don't know why she would leave." 25 plus years later, we are still stuck. Yes, the investigators say they want to know the answer to that question. But none have had the guts to go after the answer. I'm sure the men and women who have touched this case for the most part are good people caught up in a system of politics.

When it first happened, no way in hell was a white Sherrif coming up on an election, he was not going to piss off the black voters, even though a large portion had their eyes on the mother. The over whelming majority of searchers were white. No community leaders in front of the cameras demanding results or her being found.

So what does all of this say? It says that when LE said " this is a normal family,"" no indicators of anything wrong." I knew then the investigation and search qas in trouble.

So when I did run across another sub and the majority was saying, "the Dad was a drug dealer," or "he took her to the store and hurt her." I knew based on my history with them both that was wrong and still is to this day. I remembered her anger and temper, which at her levels is no where near normal. Then, the memories of her out of control in school, then as an adult, then with her kids. The way she acted at their games and how she would berate them for everything. Totally controlling Harold and everything to do in the house. The time she beat OBee with her shoe at the Polkville ball fields in front of dozens of adults and had to be restrained by three large grown men. So you ask yourself. Does the beginning of why she left matter? Do you really feel she was meeting a friend? She was groomed by someone with a mother like a deranged pit bull terrier? Do you really feel she was packed from a plan to go meet someone, or did she grab the things that mattered to her and fled into the night seeking safety of any sort?

It matters regardless of the reason, and someone in LE has to have the courage to find the answer.

Well... so let's say it's true. Why are we focused on LE per se? The Supreme Court has ruled that it is ok for LE to lie, specifically to an individual, during an investigation. SO WHO WAS IT THAT TOLD LE WHAT WAS MISSING? OH, THAT'S RIGHT, THE MOTHER. SO FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO SAY THE BEGINNING DOESN'T MATTER ARE YOU RETHINKING THAT NOW?

EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS SAY ASHA WAS CARRYING " A BOOK BAG" NOT BAGS. SO HERE WE ARE ANOTHE ASHA TWIST THAT HAS TAKEN OFF LIKE A WILDFURE. BUT ONLY A FEW MONTHS AGO SOME REDDITTORS WERE CALLING ON JUSTICE FOR ASHA AFTER ANOTHER WILDFIRE. BY THE WAY THAT HAS BURNED IT'S SELF OUT. THEY HARRASED CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS, CALLED FIR JOB TERMINATIONS AND ARRESTS. SO, WE COME TO THIS. LE/FBI ALSO SAID THE FAMILY WAS A NORMAL FAMILY NO INDICATIONS OF A TROUBLED HOME OR INDICATOR OF MISTREATMENT. THEY OBVIOUSLY DIDN’T TAKE ALL OF THE REPORTS OF ABUSE THAT WERE CALLED IN AT CLEVELAND COUNTY DSS OVER THE YEARS SERIOUSLY WHEN THEY CHECKED WITH THEM. "SURELY THEY DID CHECK WITH THEM." SOME OF YOU AT THIS POINT YOUR MIND IS ON A TREAD MILL RUNNING WIDE OPEN. EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED, TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION AND WHEN SOMEONE CANT LOOK YOU IN THE EYE WHEN TALKING OR ANSWERING A QUESTION, " THEYRE LYING".

As the years have gone by, the mother of Asha Degree has never acted like a parent would of a missing child.

She has never been out front leading the charge for exposure to her case and / or "justice" for her.

But almost immediately, LE clears her. Why? It's obviously clear based on her own past that many in the area over the years have witnessed her tempermental outbursts. How she has exploded on her kids in public.

Explain to me how she was cleared. Explain to me how you hear a bed squeak, but not pick up a book bag and out the door. Let's see... one can contribute to the delinquency of a minor in much less ways or be considered abusive. But the explosion of the mother on her at the last ballgame or say at a cookout sports banquet in Polkville on OBryant is not considered abusive or abnormal. Interesting. Convince me why she was cleared. After all the search warrants, tv news reports, text messages, DNA, car removal, witness statements, trying to convict people based on circumstance. Why has not the same scrutiny been placed on the mother? Relationships change, and there is information out there that someone has that will matter, no matter how small or long ago. Incidents and experiences matter and should be shared. From former teachers, classmates, parents, and retired DSS workers. Your experiences matter for Asha, justice, and knowing the "WHY" Asha left. There is only one side of this story being told, and so far, LE has been unwilling to peel back the layers to reveal secrets unknown in Asha's life. Remember local people of Cleveland County / Shelby, that not everyone is on Redditt, you must have conversations in the community. Some of these conversations may be uncomfortable, but tell what you know. Report what you know. Tell us what your experiences are. No doubt, LE monitors these and other social media outlets. So it's way past time for everyone's involvement and history known.