u/Leather_Ad3521

Early game = "I don't know why I'd pick anything up other than the smart rifle and tactical rifle. The bullets always hit the targets so I can focus on dodging, avoiding and shielding."

Mid game = "Oh, this repeating crossbow is the best weapon in the game by far. It's main fire has a little auto aim, but it's alt fire does a little less damage but sends out unlimited bowes and continues to do damage to enemeies. Oh what's this - "Power Generator" - looks like I can always keep my power weapon charged up because I do continuous damage with the bow, especially the alt fire. Oh - the smart rifle and tactical rifle have power generator sometime too? They are a good secondary option."

Late game = "These chakrams are weird, but wait ... these are the best weapons in the games! The reaping chakram especially, but the myriad chakram and even the ripsaw chakram is OP too. I don't need power generator. This is more powerful then my power weapon, and anyway, I can charge that up with artificats! Also, the shotgun actually is freaking awesome with blazing punch, I can stagger an enemy, and bounce all around the room taking them down."

I know some people like those pistols, especially with the alt fire that you can shoots as fast as you possibly can, but never clicked with them like returnal. Thoughts?

I am 140 hours in, platinumed the game, did two play throughs and I still can’t pull myself away from it, that’s why I’ve wanted an endless mode so much - but the game did just come out and hopefully it comes in time.

Thinking back on it, the only thing I think that comes close is Sekiro. Very different game, but similarly to Saros it’s a dance.

Returnal is one of my favorite games of all time, but this combat loop just clicks with me even more, and I’ve spent a ton of time in the Returnal tower.

What action games would you put up there with Saros, and where do you think Saros sits just focusing on the combat. Could be third person or first person, could be shooter, hack and slash or anything else. The only requirement is that the core gameplay is a combat loop.

What do you think? And, would love to try some suggestions that you feel like match Saros in just enjoyment of the gameplay loop.

Anyone notice this? I thought it was just a one time thing, but it happened a couple times. Might be a bug, though not a big one. Interestingly he’s the only boss that you don’t need to go back to the passage after beating the first time through. Perhaps it’s somehow connected.

The weapon that feels weird at first, but then, once you get it down, allows you to just melt rooms.

The myriad is the closest mechanically to the dreadbound, but it’s easier to use - you can recall discs, and you just have multiple discs bouncing around enemies.

Then you have ripsaw chakram which feels super weird to use at first, because you have to commit to targets. I bet that weapon is in the same class if you master it.

Reaping chakram seems spiritually most like the dreadbound, because while it’s different mechanically, it also feels a little weird to use and rewards consistency by getting dark pink / purple as you land more consecutive hits.

Curious what you all think. HM always puts the comfort weapons in game like the smart rifle and repeating crossbow which are great, don’t get me wrong - but they are kind of akin to a Carbine or Hollowseeker in Returnal. Then you have the chakrams, which are weird feeling at first, but they have the highest ceiling when you figure out how to use them.

I personally love that HM does this - it adds another layer to the game. I didn’t get into the dreadbound until hours in the tower - I never used it in the regular game.

I just used it on king, and it was actually a lot more effective than power generator weapons - because visibility remains really good. If you’re launching prominence missiles constantly - you can’t see him sometimes. If you are playing with no modifiers or positive modifiers, you really have to see him at all times and limit chip damage.

Curious what everyone’s thoughts are on the chakrams, and if you played Returnal - do they remind you of the dreadbound sort of?

I don’t know if they addded increased chance these happen, or if there is a bug. I just started a run in gone 2, didn’t turn on the eclipse, and I have picked up maybe 4 or 5 artifacts with low chances of volatility and both ignorance and arrogance were triggered. I noticed it was triggered early in a previous run. Is this just unlucky RNG or are others experiencing this too?

My criticism of Saros, initially, was around systems. Coming from Returnal the way artifacts are used, the way guns level up, the skill tree, all didn't really make sense and seemed incoherent. To be clear I understand what they do, I'm referring to how they work together as a coherent whole. I was wrong - they just aren't explained nearly enough, and what is explained can misdirect the player. I'm now on my second playthrough specifically because I really want to understand the systems, and Saros systems/builds are actually quite elegant. The problem isn't the systems, 1) The game teaches the player to engage with the teleporter and essentially jump to the latest biome. This, in many ways, trivializes the systems in place. 2) The game is obviously a lot like Returnal, but certain aspects of the game - while appearing like Returnal - are actually much different, and like a build based ARPG. 3) The fact that you have to go back to the passage after each biome, especially in the middle section, where there are branching paths that you need to understand, and the game doesn't really communicate this creates a lot of confusion. When Act 1 ends in Returnal, you can start in Act 1 and do a run or start in Act 2 and do a run. This is not how it works in Saros. You can go all the way through from the first biome to the second to last biome if you sequence them correctly, eventually.

The biggest realization I had as I played it more is that proficiency is way different in Saros then Returnal. In Returnal you generally swap guns, when you get a good gun with a higher number proficiency available. This is not what you are intended to do in Saros. The power of the gun is much more impacted by your build (Skill tree + Artifact numbers Resilience, Power and Drive) then anything else. Yes, there are proficiency bands where guns of the same kind have higher base power - but you need to jump 10-15 levels to get there, and still your lower proficiency gun can be more powerful based on your build and the guns multipliers. Higher proficiency guns do, also, start to add more perks at certain thresholds.

So, you pick up a gun you like, and you invest in the build of that gun buy picking up artifacts that impact that guns multipliers. The primary way to make a gun stronger is not through proficiency it's through artifacts, and the occasional stat enhancers that drop from enemies.

Therefore, the method I've found in Saros that seems like the best way to play it while really engaging with the systems, is not to start at the beginning necessarily each run, and not teleport to the latest biome. It's ultimately based on the amount of biomes you need to get your build online and fill out your artifact slots. Yes starting from the beginning will get you higher proficiency and still the opportunity to get stat enhancer drops from enemies, but it's really diminishing returns. You can, of course, play however you want - but I think the true focus is around stat based builds and maximizing your build before you face your current objective.

The more I play Saros this way, the more I like the systems. I imagine souls players and ARPG players picked this up more easily, but for people coming from Returnal especially, it's extremely confusing. If Housemarque missed on anything - it's not properly conveying the nuances of a genuinely elegant roguelike system, and teaching the player to teleport to the latest biome through quest markers and emphasizing the teleporter as an accessibility tool for shorter runs.

I think some people intuitively start one biome early, or just start from the first biome to try and become overpowered. And, while I've seen some discussion around how proficiency works, I haven't seen a discussion around how people are using this understanding to play the game in way that best engages the systems.

I'm curious if others have seen, essentially, the underlying roguelike and how these systems work with eachother - and adjusted their style of play as a result. Did you notice these at all? I didn't really start to see the underlying logic until the end of my first playthrough, which is why I started a second - to try and play with everything I now understood - and, frankly, it's a much more enjoyable experience. Balance feels right without the need for any modifiers, the skill tree, artifacts, weapons and weapon scaling all work together - and in addition to the combat - there is actually a lot of strategy around how you maximize your build.

I beat The King a couple days ago with moderate offensive and defensive modifiers, but I wanted to beat him with no modifiers. I just did, and it took me the better part of two days.

First, I just have to say this is an all time great boss fight. The first phase is blue orbs, which you can absorb, the second phase is red orbs which you can parry or avoid, and the third phase is yellow orbs, which you can dash through, avoid, or absorb. It makes a lot of sense to aborb them at this point because your health will be down already, so it won't really impact your health bar negatively. The symbolism of the third phase being yellow orbs, and the fact that Arjun can absorb them or avoid them similar to whether he can take the throne or leave it all behind is god tier gameplay story telling.

The fight is not without small issues however. In the second phase, there is an attack where King charges up, dashes and melee's you. This is the most powerful attack the king has. There are two cues which highlight it. One, you get a faint glimmer of yellow off in the distance, because usually your not right up against the king. Two, you get a charge up audio cue. The problem is it's not very easy to hear AND I think it's the same sound effect they use for Arjun when his power weapon charges or overdrive is ready. So you are unsure whether it's him or you.

It's so difficult to hear, that I turned the music off, left sound effects on - and listened through headphones on a chord hugo 2 and focal utopia - and still I couldn't avoid it every time. And it's important because you have little margin for error in that fight: no second chance, no aether drops, no opportunities to claw back integrity.

The second thing, is you have to run through a 45 minute biome and juice up to face the king on equal footing. It does become tedious to go back again and again, because he is a challenging boss with basically no margin for error. He's way harder than any boss in Saros or Returnal - not necessarily because of complexity - but because you basically have to be perfect because chip damage just kills your health bar. That said, It's a rogue-like so it is what it is.

Bottom line, however, this is one of the best bosses I ever played. Same feeling as Sword Saint Ishin from Sekiro when I finally beat that. Yes, he could probably use some tuning - but it is an all timer boss fight, IMO. I've been critical of certain aspects of the game, because there are many transcendent moments like this. That's why the uneveness in certain parts gets to me.

Housemarque - if you are listening - tweak the difficulty balancing, and create a pure endless mode like the tower which really focuses on the top tier combat, (maybe add a few more weird guns) and you'll have an unequivocal banger.

TLDR - Returnal is still the goat. Saros improves ina many meaningful ways, but as a cohesive experience, Returnal is better.

In terms of my Returnal background, I'm a heavy tower player, and I max out at about 60,000,000 and level 12. This puts me in about top 100 - top 200 players on PC.

I am currently playing through the last biome in Saros, and faced the last bost, but haven't beaten him yet - so I'm almost through the whole game.

Saros has many things I would consider an improvement over Returnal. I am playing on the PS5 pro to for what it's worth. Graphics, environments, music, boss fights, length, voice acting - are all excellent. Some are improvements some are preference, but the components of the game are top notch. There also is a much different difficulty ramp: In Saros the game starts much easier and gets progressively harder, whereas I think a lot of what turned people off from Returnal was how hard it felt right out of the gate. But there are difficulty spikes in Saros.

That said, while the guns in Saros are good, I think Returnals variety is better. That said, there are some particularly cool guns in Saros that add unique mechanics based on the modifiers.

Finally, if you don't use the carcasion modifiers, I think Saros is actually harder than Returanls. Rooms full of enemies in the mid to later game are faster and denser. The shield isn't something which makes the game easier, there is more cognitive load involved. Now it's not just run around, shoot and dodge, but you have to be extra aware of the colors of projectiles, and incoporate another mechanic into split second decisions you'd have in Returnal.

My biggest gripe with Saros is it's systems. The skill tree is ridiculously complex, then you have the modifiers, then you have the teleporter, then you have the eclipse. No shops, no malignant chests, artifacts during eclipse are essentially optional parasites, and the game doesn't level you up to the required proficiency for the biome you are in. This is a problem because there is a teleporter, so any time you start at the biome you are completing, your proficiency goes down to the level it started / the level you attained in the skill tree. This is particularly a problem after Act 1. Even if you play from the beginning and boost your proficiency, between the 4tth and 5th biome, it's a new "Act" - so your run has to end. Returnal handled this by starting you at proficiency 30 in act 2, Saros starts you from the beginning. This really makes it confusing in regards to what level you should be at when to have a balanced experience or what the devs intended. If you haven't upgraded the skill tree enough, you will feel like your fighting bullet sponges and it becomes very hard, IMO - like later level tower runs.

Saros is like a dish with all these great ingredients that are not blended together as well as you'd like. It's trying to be a roguelite and trying to be an action game, and made compromises so it could be either one, but as a result seems like it's not a great example of either.

Modifiers and skill tree aside, I think moment to moment, Saros is a harder game. Then Sony said - this is too hard - add these systems to make it easier, so Housemarque layered in a bunch of different systems that are a bit confusing and awkward, and forces the player to curate the experience. I don't have a problem with providing difficulty options, what I do have a problem with is essentially outsourcing that to the player entirely. I have spent a lot of time in Saros thinking "Where am I supposed to start this run so I have a balanced experience, what level on the skill tree do I need to be at so that the game is where the devs tuned the balance." I never felt that in Returnal, it was much simpler. Start in one of two places and your proficiency scales as a result.

I haven't finished the game yet, so I'll leave judgement on the story for a later thread, but I think the story in Returnal will end up being better.

Don't gert me wrong, I am loving Saros. It is a meaningful evolution in moment to moment combat, enemies and the gameplay loop. My gripe is with the systems, the lack of shops that let you tweak your build, less variety in terms of guns, etc. I'd highly reccommend the game if you like Returnal. As it's early in the launch period - I'm hoping Housemarque addresses some of the clunkiness regarding systems and difficulty balancing later, because the core game and gameplay is ecxcellent.

Just to preface, I've played a lot of returnal. I've beaten the main campaign on PS5 and PC, and I've put literally 1000 hours into the tower, top score is 60,000,000 and I typically hover in the top 100-200 tower players.

This is not to boast, it's just to establish a baseline that I have a strong feel for the difficulty scaling of returnal and the tower.

I get that Housemarque was trying to make this game more accessible. I don't have a problem with that - I welcome that. But in doing so, it feels like they slapped a bunch of systems together that are overly complicated and force the player to shape their experience rather than focus on the game and master an experience they've provided.

First - the armor upgrade tree is just a little insane. There must be 1000 nodes on it by the time you are in biome 6.

The carcosian modifiers I understand as a tool to help players dial in the game, but I don't think they help all that much.

Then you have the eclipse.

Then you have teleportation.

Any of these mechanics alone makes sense, but combined they make for a really confusing experience - because they are inconsistent.

Sometimes you can rush directly to the boss, sometimes you can't.

Sometimes you have to initiate an eclipse, sometimes you don't.

And my biggest issue, proficiency scaling. Lots of people love to say "start a few biomes back". This too is inconsistent. I just played from Biome 3 - beat the architect in biome 5, and then there was a story beat which reset my proficiency. Why? Now I'm supposed to go back and replay those biomes to get my proficiency up, I didn't die mind you, but because now that it's played the story beat - it won't reset my proficiency? These types of inconsistencies are really frustrating to the player, and with so many options - it becomes really confusing how you are supposed to approach the game.

So I am in acolytes heaven and the balanace is definitely off starting with a 15 gun, my current baseline proficiency level. So the general rule is I have to start a few biomes back, which "works" but not the first time. More importantly, I have to beat the bosses again, take the risk I lose a life, and spend the time just to get back to a baseline at the new biome? If the point of the game is to make is more approachable to casuals, I think it's doing the opposite. Why do I need to fight the bosses again, if I am just trying to level up proficiency to have a fair fight in the current biome?

Returnal was pretty simple in this regard. you start at one of two points. You start at the beginning you have a level 1 gun. You start at biomne 3 you have a level 30 gun. This ensured difficulty scaling and direction was obvious - pick one of two starting points.

The frustrating thing is there is a great game under there - the moment to moment gameplay is just as good if not better then returnal. The skill tree,, carcosian modifiers, level balancing and the many inconsistencies are not. When the game acts behaviorally different (the first time we reset your proficiency, but the next time we won't.) - it's just really confusing to the player. This is not a gameplay issue it's a systems issue.

Again, no problem making it more accesssible in theory - but I think that in an attempt to make it more accessible, they've added a bunch of systems that, overall, make it more confusing. If anything - they've made it more inaccessible, because in order to get to an appropriate proficiency level you need to fight all the bosses again. You never had to in returnal.

People tend to downvote things that say anything negative about the game, but I hope you reconsider. Housemarque has a history of taking player feedback and continuing to update the game. I think the best way for the balancing to be improved is to here from players. And, I know it's early in the games lifescycle but I can't be the only one that feels this way. I think we all want this game to succeed and get recognized for what Housemarque really does well - and I think fixing this a bit is crucial.

I am a Returnal veteran, and really enjoying this game, but at Biome 3 and unsure what the actual “intended” experience is, particularly where I’m supposed to start each run.

I had been starting at the latest teleporter I unlocked, but at this point, the weapons become way too underpowered for certain enemies. Am I intended to start at the beginning of the game? Am I intended to start at the beginning of a biome, or back a biome? I don’t want the weapons to be overpowered or underpowered, but matched to the level I’m on.

And then the difficulty modifiers: I understand that these have been added to make the game more accessible, but am I supposed to use these at all? I just assumed no - but I see some players just ensuring they equal 0 in terms of balance. What’s the intended experience.

My only complaint is that in trying to make runs shorter and make the game more accessible, it’s unclear what the intended experience is to play with the difficulty scaling that housemarque intended. There just seems to be various inconsistencies that happen for no rhyme or reason. In one biome you can skip directly to the boss after getting there, but can’t in others. In another biome, after completed, you don’t need to trigger the eclipse to go through it.

Can anyone help me out here on the intended progression if you are trying to play with the core balancing housemarque built in?

EDIT: Easiest way to ask this: What should weapon level be around in biome 3 so that you are at a proper level and not overpowered or underpowered?