u/NPDogs21

People tend to be around like minded people. One thing I've noticed is PC that are in safe, firmly PC states and countries have the luxury of being able to not care what PL think or if they change their mind. At the end of the day, it has no impact on them. They can simply tell them "My body, my choice" or insult them, and the only areas that are affected are where PL live.

In states and countries where abortion is restricted, PL need to be persuaded or else we need to accept abortion access will be restricted and women will suffer. While a first trimester cutoff is unacceptable to some PC, its far better than current abortion bans in some states.

Does living in a firmly pro choice area influence how persuasive you are towards PL?

One thing thats always stood out to me is how PC treat a violation of the womans body by restricting abortion as unconsciousable yet killing the ZEF, which some even call a baby, is acceptable.

I don't treat the ZEF and the woman the same because I view the woman as having more moral value and rights than the ZEF. Even if I viewed them as equal, I'd still call death, which is irreversible and not everyone wants to die, as worse between the two. Why do PC not view death as worse if you view the ZEF as equal to the woman?

My intuition is if the woman was killed or allowed to die, most PC would view that as worse between the two, but many don't.

Also, yes I consider abortion killing and don't find the "its just taking an action we know will result in their death" satisfactory. We wouldn't let PL get away with forcing pregnancy to continue and saying they're not responsible for it.

If you asked me if PC should remove religion from our arguments, I'd say absolutely and mixing abortion and religion is a recipe for disaster. The PC position has shown to be the one secular societies choose while religious ones are usually PL.

Despite this, PL will say its not a religious movement. At every PL event, the main speakers are religious activists, they open and close with prayer, and their arguments are religious. If PL claim this actually doesn't represent their movement, why do we not see the PL movement move towards a more secular position?

Can a PL show me any PL event where religion, almost always Christianity, was not a main theme or, even better, that the organizers specifically told them they were going to keep the event secular?

If abortion can be defeated with secular arguments to PL, why are religious activists at PL events so common?

A trend I've noticed with PL is that a woman who wants to abort or threatens to is an evil monster who should never be around children. A woman who goes through with abortion though and immediately says they regret it, maybe even asking Jesus for forgiveness, is not a monster or a murderer.

If this is many PL position, why not just let abortion be legal if the woman expresses regret? It seems like a win win to me. PL can show others how abortion js wrong and forgive the woman because of their religion while PC (and PL) have access to legal abortion. They don't have to actually regret it, but it seems like PL would be on board if they acted like they were

I've been doing crosswords for awhile now and feel like I'm not improving anymore. I can solve a Monday NYT crossword and maybe a Tuesday. After that, the trivia and wordplay just do not click and it feels more like a chore to look up a random 19th century poet or singer from the 50s.

How do you solve the Crossword? More importantly, when you get stuck what is your next step? I've walked away and came back, turned on auto check, Googled around, and it doesn't seem to be getting any easier or faster.

Mostly towards PL. Why should the child, Rumi, in the surrogate case be taken away from the biological parents and renamed Gabriel for requesting abortion but a woman who aborts, maybe even having multiple abortions, be treated differently like its no big deal?

The inconsistency always makes my mind boggle, and I don't get how PL deal with it. If I were PL, I'd say yes. I might even support them changing the kids names if we support calling them baby Gabriel too.

Should the children of a woman who aborts be taken away by the state?

When I was PL, i believed in the idea of "womb to tomb" being against abortion while also supporting the idea of progressive policies. I was also a single issue voter on abortion, which is why I say "the idea" as politically I rejected these progressive policies in favor of being against abortion.

Now, I am not a single issue supporter and am PC. I also cannot move to a side that is not honest, and I regularly have PL tell me things like "PL support everything else you support. We have tons of atheists, leftists, feminists, etc. PL organizations and politicians really dont represent the PL movement." If i cannot acknowledge that yes, actually the speakers at the March for Life, including the Vice President, do represent the PL movement, why should I join a side that cannot be straightforward?

While I don't agree with them, I've found the abortion abolitionist types to be much more honest and direct about the effects of banning abortion and what they support.

Why should I become pro life if I believe in a consistent life ethic and am not a single issue supporter?

For me, it used to be Jan 6 when the "Back the Blue" crowd was okay with their side cheering on Capitol police being attacked and pardoned. Turns out they didnt give an F about the blue when they weren't on their side.

Now, there's so many insane examples for the second Trump administration its hard to choose. Gas prices skyrocketing after saying they'd go down, no new wars, tariffs, the crypto bribe scheme. Too many to count.

For the left, I think the biggest one is support for Ukraine. Russia is clearly the aggressor, and Ukraine is fighting for its survival. I'll hear far left people bring up anti NATO talking points, this isn't our war to fight, its sad how many Russians are dying, and Ukraine should capitulate to Russia to "give peace a try."

Another one is will they vote for the lesser of two evils, even if they may not like Democrats? One red flag is when I hear "They need to earn my vote." I've never actually seen one of them say they voted Democrat. Either they go back to Jill Stein or abstain because "both sides are the same." I dont trust these people when I see the both sidesing.

What are your political litmus tests for both the right and left?

For me, I would change my position to a more consistent one if I kept running into contradictions.

1.) Abortion is murder. We shouldn't actually treat it like murder though or women fundamentally lack mens rea to ever understand what abortion is.

2.) Personhood is irrelevant and should never be used to separate humans as it has led to atrocities when that happens. Yes, I grant personhood at conception and don't believe all human DNA should be protected, like human skin or hair cells.

3.) PL say we're wrong to lump them together as conservative, anti contraception, anti sex ed, and anti maternity leave. Saying you personally support them while voting against them would be like me saying I'm 100% PL but I will vote against every PL ballot initiative since what matters most is just my personal belief.

PC, what is a contradiction you regularly see with PL?

PL, how do you justify the countless contradictions of the PL position?

Say a woman is traveling out of state to get an abortion since its restricted in Texas. Theres a lot of places there now where its a crime to engage in "abortion trafficking" using the roads to travel there.

Would you support law enforcement using Flock cameras in Texas to track women traveling to get an abortion?

Theres plenty of talk about punishing vs not punishing the woman who gets an abortion. What do PL think should happen to a doctor who's performed an abortion, even hundreds or thousands of them? Loss of license? Life in prison? Death penalty?

I ask this because I see PL constantly praise and forgive these doctors when they become PL activists. Pretty strange reaction to someone that they claim has murdered countless babies.

What should the consequences/punishment be for a doctor who performs a non-medically necessary abortion in a PL world? If they become PL activists, do you believe their past actions should immediately be forgiven?

PL, do you believe PC think all people with disabilities should have been aborted and that we support now killing babies after birth?

PC, do you think all PL are women haters who are just looking for an excuse to oppress women, not that they genuinely believe they're trying to save babies?

Do you believe the caricatures of the other side of the debate?

I am not a single issue voter and never will be. The PL movement consistently backs horrible politicians that cause more harm than good, way more than those caused by abortion.

White Nationalists are welcome, Christian Nationalists are welcome, celebrating. Cutting USAID that will lead to the deaths of millions, many of whom are children, is welcome. Open corruption and demonizing the other side is welcome. Clearly, the movement is saying it's not one that's for me.

Telling me there are non-traditional PL does nothing if they make no impact on the movement. Does SecularProLife regularly call out LiveAction for involving religion with PL? No, which tells me its acceptable. PL speeches are literally opened with a prayer.

Misogyny is openly tolerated, so much where its not surprising hearing some say women shouldn't have the right to vote, that women naturally shoyld want to stay at home and not be in the work force, and they should want to have as many children as possible.

So, if you reject PL being part of the PL movement if they don't accept these things, what is your goal to get non-PL to join your movement? Is it entering through the race, sex, religion or culture war angle and then being PL that way?

What PL and PC arguments do you see that are inconsistent yet are brought up all the time?

For PL, its the claim that abortion is murder yet never actually treated as such. IVF is fine, rape exceptions are common, and there should be no punishment at all towards the woman. Doesn't sound murderous to me.

For PC, specifically abortion legal all throughout pregnancy, its that a doctor refusing to perform an abortion for a healthy pregnancy or refer to one who will is completely unacceptable in the first trimester but fine for the third . I think its because many see abortion at that point as unjustified and shouldn't happen, even if the woman wants it, so its easier to say a doctor just wouldn't perform it. They should then be accused of denying woman healthcare like earlier refusals are, but I never see it.

What is an inconsistency you commonly see on both sides of the debate?

One thing I can't stand is playing the victim, especially when you're the one in power or are the abuser. What is the psychological reason for MAGA constantly acting like the world is out to get them when they're the ones in charge?

I read about the Patriot Front losers in DC, and naturally MAGA was saying it was Feds, it was ANTIFA, the Democrats are the party of the KKK, etc anything but disavow them. If i was MAGA, I'd simply own that I accept or tolerate them in my movement or leave. Boom, done? Why is that impossible for the average MAGA?

I genuinely don't get it. They must see it, right?

This is in response to the common personhood rebuttal.

All humans should get human rights. Size, ability, dependency, location, none of it matters. If you're human, you get human rights.

Logically, this also applies to human skin or hair cells as both are human. If you want to say you have to be a human organism, you're adding a qualifier that you have to be more than simply human.

Why do you say all humans should get human rights but when asked if that includes human hair or skin cells, both human, act like that is absurd?