u/TopicUnable2307

If Ethan had a sugar daddy, and did more speed than alcohol, he’d be Steven.

They crash out in similar ways- they’ve both had revenge porn court cases against them- they both have a record of publicly dating and falling out with much younger (often mentally ill, often sex work involved) women. They’re both bitter divorced men who abandoned their children- each exhibiting the tell tale symptoms of untreated personality disorders (and co-occurring substance use disorders.) They’re both deeply angry, with a habit of crashing out on streams, and each one uses doxxing to compensate for their easily prodded, deep-seated insecurities.

Ethan is marginally more dysfunctional than Steven, mostly due to the fact that he lost his mind before he grabbed the bag. Steven has enough money to insulate his viewers from directly seeing much of his conduct. I’ll also give Steven credit for (ostensibly) paying child support. However, their vibes are remarkably similar. Steven may not be as far gone, he is about three years younger, but he will be in the same boat Ethan is now in a couple of years.

They may back opposing political tribes, but their presentations, personalities and patterns of behavior echo each other. They are both laughing stocks in their respective political and content creating communities.

Both are classic examples of a depressingly common American species, the 40 something divorced fuck‘up. Visit any civil, drug or family court in the American Pacific Northwest, Midwest, or Northeast and you’ll meet a boat load of Ethans and Stevens. There tens of millions of Americans who know a Steven or Ethan (someone in their high school class, maybe a deranged ex, maybe an abusive father, uncle or brother)- they are lolcows or embarrassments.

Close All Tabs is an NPR show- it’s generally excellent in its own right. I believe that it came out on Wednesday of last week. Denims is interviewed along with Kat Tenbarge. It’s excellent. Ethan Klein chose not to comment on the podcast, despite being asked for a response.

The timing is serendipitous. David Pakman just committed to guesting on the show. I’m 100% confident either Pakman, some of his fans, or someone on his staff heard this podcast. It’s quite likely that folks in his corner will ask questions.

I suspect that Ethan and H3 will remain silent (a la the Aamon Animations video)- but this is a sign that Ethan’s actions are finally drawing mainstream scrutiny. If you’re a lib who likes podcasts and NPR, you’ll now likely know of what Ethan has done and how insidious it is.

You just know Pakman is the type of person does not like messiness and disorganization. The dude runs his own show, where he can set the pace, conditions and terms.

I’m willing to bet that the smell of the set will make him doubt the collaboration. I doubt that he’ll be comfortable- and he’ll struggle when he’s confronted with the sheer ignorance of the Kleins and dis-interest of the crew.

It would be much wiser for him to appear remotely. Even with this accommodation, the fact that he’s appearing on H3 has to be a career low point. He clearly needs views and engagement, and he doesn’t have many other options.

This lawsuit was never about “protecting the Klein family.” All Ethan did was amplify the accusation made by Destiny.

Ethan has had one goal the entire time, to force his critics to delete successful videos criticizing him. Content Cop H3 is one of the biggest and most successful. Ethan wanted Noah to delete his video on Ethan’s genocide apologia- so it stands to reason that this is the “silly“ condition Ethan is trying to impose.

I suspect that this is one of the primary points of contention. The video was incredibly successful- it‘s easily the most successful video Idubbbz has made since his documentary series. Ethan knows this and he can’t abide by it.

The logic on Ethan’s part is cynical and petty. He will try to force Ian to pay for publicly criticizing him via a hit video. It’s the exact same logic Ethan had regarding Noah. He will keep the case going simply out of spite.

I for one hope that Idubbbz stands his ground. If he needs any kind of support to offset the cost of litigation, he now has thousands of people who’d happily chip in.

Ethan can’t handle being criticized. He can’t handle his calculated brand move, leaning into “progressive politics,” blowing up in his face. Ethan Klein chose to make political commentary a part of his brand- but he couldn’t handle actually having a left leaning audience.

Ethan’s bitterness boils down to an incapacity to accept failure, let alone adapt to it. He opened himself up to scrutiny from a self consciously ideological audience- and chose to wage a war against that audience when they called out his heartfelt political positions- the most notable being his support for a genocidal ethnostate. Ethan is clearly proud to be an Israeli and he views his Israeli identity as being intertwined with his secular Jewish identity. He did not have to share this with the world, but he did, and then tried to conceal it in the most hanfisted ways possible.

Ethan suing Idubbbz is just another effort to vent his hurt feelings. He sued Noah Samsen, a creator who actually made a widely viewed and coherent critique of his positions on Israel, and he lost. He sued Denims, a creator who reacted negatively to his coverage of the genocide, and he lost. All he garnered from his other lawsuits is a hostage video apology and an ongoing case against a smaller creator who may very well win.

Ethan is going after Idubbbz because he wants to hurt someone he associates with his vast number of online critics. He thinks that hurting his former “friend” will make him feel better. It won’t.

At this point, I think he realizes that he ruined his brand and career. He could walk away with millions- be he chooses to engage in a losing battle. He is a petulant manchild who can’t abide by having his feelings hurt.

Everyone sees this, even a large segment of his former shills and supporters. This is Ethan Klein’s legacy- and this is what he will be remembered for. He is only making it worse for himself.

Bots didn’t do this to Ethan Klein. Hasan didn’t do this to Ethan Klein. It wasn’t Qatar, Cuba, China, or “communists” who immolated H3. Ethan did it to himself.

Ethan bragging about “talking to David behind the scenes” seems more like a desperate effort to flex than anything else. If H3 and Pakman were working together, we’d hear something from David’s team (likely some form of open defense or planned collaboration.)

I think that Ethan is manic and angry. He just lost two big court cases, and in all likelihood will lose his moonshot appeal against Denims. He has seen most of the commentary space turn on him- and his remaining supporters go on the defensive. Ethan has put months into trying to set a narrative, and he just saw it all slip through his fingers.

I suspect that Ethan is trying to pull in another potential large collaborator. The show is dying in front of his eyes- and the only way he’s been able to renew his brand in the past has been through well timed collaborations. The best he has is GWAM- and even AD has lost viewership as it leaned more to explicit hasbara.

David Pakman is clearly pro Israel and shares Ethan’s antipathy toward Palestine solidarity and the left. He has openly defended Destiny when DGG was barred from CDA events- but I would be surprised if he openly began working with Destiny and Ethan. They are too toxic in the online political space- he’s better off being on his own.

I could be wrong, but Ethan bragging about “being in talks” with David Pakman seems like cap. At most, he‘s probably talking with some kind of representative (along with leaving a bunch of dms, emails and voicemails) and he’s trying to represent this outreach as more than it is. The fact that Ethan did this while spewing unhinged conspiracy theories makes this partnership less likely.

Ethan is just spiteful, angry and desperate. His beef has blown up in his face, and he’s too bitter to let it go. GWAM is a happy paid shill- likely the new outlet for his hasbara- but her reach is nonexistent outside of H3, and it’s declined as she leaned into Ethan’s pro Israel politics.

The fact that the Bulwark platforms Destiny and DGG reflects poorly on both their judgement and intentions.

They are a rightwing outlet- the latest iteration of the “Never Trump” conservative movement (in the tradition of the Lincoln Project.) They represent a fringe wing of the right- the folks that are at once Never Trump, pro interventionist and favor Democratic Party entryism. They are overrepresented in mainstream media punditry, particularly when it comes to the pro Democratic Party establishment, but they are anything but representative.

Their alignment with DGG reflects their weakness. When you actually look at their analysis, they tend to oppose focusing their energy on attacking the left (and are even willing to accept criticism of Israel as a mainstream position, even if they do not agree with it.) This puts them at odds with Destiny and DGG- who’s entire brand at this point is attacking leftist critics of Israel and the Democratic Party (often in viscerally unhinged terms.)

Since they don’t really align with DGG’s rhetoric or tactics (at least not explicitly) you can only assume that they work with Destiny to draw in viewers. As a Neo Lincoln Project, they do not have much appeal to the youth movement of either the right or left (the right tends to be pro MAGA, anti Democrat, and more explicitly anti Israel.) They recognize that they need more than over 50 rich, educated center right liberals- and Destiny has a young audience.

The stupidity and cynicism of this alignment will only burn the Bulwark. The OG Lincoln Project had its own sex scandals (one of the founders was actually outed for trying to procure sex from young men)- and their blindness to Destiny’s own scandals suggests that they did not learn their lesson.

I can’t wait to see how this all plays out. These people think they are too clever by half, and they make stupid mistakes.

I’ve been seeing a lot of speculation relating to his status.

Folks have pointed out that Love may have removed H3 from his social media bios- a move reminiscent of Morgan when she was laid off.

It’s also been noted that Love did not seem particularly happy with the direction of the show. His role seems to have been reduced over time- and him mentioning the non-compete clause could reflect this dissatisfaction. Ethan notably didn’t cover his sizable visa fees- and Love had to depend on a generous fan to pay $15k.

I suspect that we will learn soon enough. The fans of the show seem to be pondering his status- and it would 100% be on brand for Ethan to bring it up and handwave it away using some vague corporate speak about “redundancy.”

If this is the case, it will be another notable blunder. Ethan Klein, yet again, could teach a master’s class on self sabotage. If he wanted to alienate his remaining audience this would be an obvious way to do it.

Inshallah, we learn all the details some time in the not too distant future. Love could probably reap a lot of clout and good will- and I doubt that Ethan could enforce a (dubious) NDA in Sweden.

I think it’s worth considering Hasan and Destiny as “political entrepreneurs” (individuals who seek to forward careers within political media and political institutions). Political entrepreneurs can be politicians, pundits, campaign organizers, influential policy makers or lobbyists. Given the blurred lines between the public and private sector in the US, I find this category to be more fitting than simply being a “streamer” or “activist” (since neither quite capture their roles or aims.)

Hasan pursued a strategy of challenging the dominant institutional systems and discursive terrain from the outside. He took positions that were at odds with the Democratic Party, often positions which were initially unpopular to the point of being anathema in liberal media spaces (opposing the Israeli war in Gaza, opposing the occupation of Palestine, supporting a rupture of relations with Israel, favoring peace over forcing Russian capitulation in Ukraine, seeking detente with the PRC and Iran.) He also focused more on foreign policy than the vast majority of liberal pundits and media figures- a risky choice given the controversy of these topics and how insulated they are from voters. He openly embraced being labeled a leftist, socialist and even accepted the label of Communist (though he tended to stick to left populist political stances- more inline with the European “left populists” France, Spain, Greece and Ireland than with Marxist Leninists or the traditional “hard left.”) He utilized aesthetics of the socialist movement to both brand and provoke- and all with the aim of being a “radical” and “outsider.”

Steven pursued a very different strategy. Rhetorically, he stayed crass, informal and provocative (channeling a self conscious “edgelord” online culture that rejected “political correctness.”) He appropriated the language and memes of the right, but reoriented them to argue for liberal social positions- a stance that allowed him to brand as a “challenger” to “red pill” influencers on their own turf. However, he focused on rhetoric rather than ideology- usually basing his positions and appeals on claims to authority (citing think tanks, articles, and study summaries that were produced and funded by the Democratic Party and its major supporters.) He adopted foreign policy and economic positions that aligned with the Democratic Party status quo- at times favoring redistributionist economic policies and reducing military involvement, but at others arguing on behalf of interventionism and neoliberal economics. He chose to brand as a “savior of common sense” on the center left- labeling himself a “liberal” or “omniliberal.” The actually ideology of content of liberalism matter less than the appeal to conventional center left American politics. He thus tried to be an opponent of both the “radical“ left and right.

The fortunes of these competent strategies reveal a great deal about the political moment. Steven would’ve likely been successful fifteen years ago- when the Democratic Party still retained some popular legitimacy. However, the failure of Obama and Biden to deliver on core promises to voters made this strategy much less viable. Hasan could present as an outsider- someone who may deal with and compromise with the party, but will openly oppose the right of the party and leadership. This forced Hasan to deal with widespread criticism and controversy, but the legitimacy crisis of the party and political media played to his favor (Israel perhaps being the watershed issue.)

I expect that the party will try to co-opt Hasan and his viewer base. They will likely lift parts of his rhetoric and symbolism if they can’t co-opt him- with the aim of appealing to supporters (much like they did after 2016 and the 2020 Uprisings.)

Destiny, on the other hand, is too scandal plagued to be worth buying off. His embrace of the current party line has only alienated him from his target audience, and his influence has hemorrhaged. I suspect that, even if Destiny wasn’t so scandal plagued, he would not be especially successful- since other pro Israel liberal pundits and streamers have also struggled.

Tl;dr Hasan is much more successful as a political entrepreneur than Destiny. He has been more successful exploiting the political shifts of the past ten years, especially in the last three. He took a higher risk strategy and it yielded far more rewards than Destiny’s efforts. Even if Destiny wasn’t scandal logged, he would be surpassed by Hasan due to his failure to understand the actual political preferences of younger viewers.

Ethan is using lawfare to silence criticism of his stance on Palestine. This was clearly his intention all along, and his settlement offer shows this clearly.

Ethan offered to drop the lawsuit in exchange for:

1. A public apology on his main YouTube and Twitter (which Ethan and his legal team would prereview). The apology would have to include:

a. An apology for saying that that Ethan supported the genocide

b. A statement that Ethan supports Palestine (even if they disagree.)

2. Noah removes six videos from his YouTube channel (every video where he criticizes Ethan, including videos that aren’t related to the claims in the actual lawsuit.)

3. A “mutual” non-disparagement clause- barring Noah from criticizing Ethan again (Rom claims that Ethan would do the same- we all know how far that promise goes without active legal scrutiny from a richer opponent.)

4. In exchange for all this, Ethan offers to maybe donate the amount that Noah spent on legal fees to a mutually agreed charity. In order for this happen, Noah would have to publicly state that Ethan did this in his apology.

Noah refused the settlement offer and proposed a counter offer-

1. A public statement regarding ”disagreements” with Ethan regarding Israel but indicating that they settled amicably.

2. Noah deleting two videos directed related to the lawsuit (not the initial video).

3. Noah’s legal fees being reimbursed.

Instead of responding directly, Ethan decided to drop the lawsuit with prejudice (so he can’t sue for the same reason again.) He did so to make Noah eat the legal costs- since this was immediately before Noah’s lawyer filed an anti SLAPP motion (which, if successful would require Ethan to pay Noah’s lawyer fees.)

The cynicism of this lawsuit is impossible to miss. Ethan wanted to strong arm Noah into silence or compliance with his PR. He did so because he has way more money than Noah- and he realized that the litigation would be a major financial strain.

Rather than standing on business, and face the real prospect of outright defeat (ie having to pay Noah’s legal costs- which would dissipate the desired personal impact of the lawsuit)- Ethan and Rom decided to give up so Noah would still eat the cost.

Noah just won a big victory for online dissent- and he stood up to a pathetic, twitching bully. The way this lawsuit played out and ended tells us everything we need to know about Ethan (ie he’s a bully who’s thin skinned, obsessed with his public image, and who is primarily motivated by spite.)

That woman deserves so much credit. She’s way smarter than Ethan Klein and 99.999999% of her slop OPPs.

She stood her ground the whole time H3 began harassing her. She put time, thought and effort into challenging Ethan’s claims, point by point, and did a brilliant job investing in talented attorneys.

Ethan expected her to just fold and settle- and I wouldn’t at all blame her for doing so just so she could put this past her. She took the tough road and made the entire H3 fandom and commentary sphere look like the fools that they are. That young woman stood on business and faced down a man with 100x her wealth and reach (to say nothing of his privilege as a cis, white Israeli-American man who’s 15 years older than her.)

Ethan Klein is used to getting things his way. He’s rich, litigious and has a big platform. He never gets challenged- and this made him VASTLY overestimate his own judgement. Rom blew smoke up his ass, and made bank off of his spite- and his hugbox of a subreddit egged on his spiteful idiocy. They now have to cope and seethe- all to stave off the obvious questions of “why the fuck did Ethan Klein choose this fight?”

If Denims compels Ethan to pay her attorneys fees, the entire lawsuit will be a loss for him. He accomplished nothing, aside from blowing a massive whole in his own credibility. Even if she doesn’t, she’s single handedly staved off a lawfare campaign against and entire community- folks who have been maligned and serially misrepresented (even by supposed “voices of reason” like Charlie- a man who’s clearly less intelligent than Denims.)

Denims, truly, is the queen of fair use. May her reign be long and fruitful!

Edit: honorable mention also goes to Denims and her attorneys making fools out of a coterie of rightwing chud lawtubers. Lus, Legal Mindset, and Potentially Criminal were so smug in their initial analysis- it’s almost like they aren’t particularly reliable sources!

Ethan lost in his first case against Denims- with the judge citing the very precedent he set.

Ethan’s response? Dox Denims on main and mald about appealing (while bringing up his other lawsuit against the “snark mods”- which he hasn’t won, but claims that he did.)

The man is truly graceless.

The one silver lining is seeing how badly hurt he is, and how openly he contradicts himself.

Ethan Klein when he spoke to viewers who did not agree with his opinions on Palestine or Hasan: “you can stop watching! Please leave my audience, H3 will be better without you.”

Ethan Klein when his viewers stop watching and view Denims covering his crashout “hOw DaRe yoU nOT wAtCH mY StREam! Denims iS sTeAliNg My ViEwErS!!!”

Pathetic and sad.

Holy shit! Diane DeGette is about to lose her primary. The democratic socialist left is about to claim another congressional seat. This is a good night to be an American- la lucha continua!

Whenever Ethan jokes about CSA, he does so from the perspective of an offender. He likely thinks that he is mocking the irrationality and absurdity of offending behavior. Ethan and his fans like wave away objections by claiming that he’s “making fun of pedophiles”- and justify their statements by claiming “humor reduces stigma for survivors.”

This attitude is not helpful. Ethan, whether he realizes it or not, is turning CSA survivors into objects of humor. The subjective experience of the survivor is never addressed (since it’s clearly not funny)- focusing instead on the experience of the offender, or a viewer of CSA.

In doing so, he is mocking survivors (since they can’t “laugh with the joke” as objects of “humor”- their agency is stripped both by the act of CSA and the joke itself).

Worse, Ethan actually provides cover for folks who may engage in CSA. Much like “edgy humor” about Black folks, “edgy humor” about CSA lets people who may have those interests or proclivities express their desires. Since it is expressed as “humor” the person who objects becomes, at best, a “prude” or “threat to free speech.” Child molesters, like racists, readily normalize their behavior behind a veneer of unseriousness (humor, irony, shock comedy extc.)

For this reason, I feel sickened by Ethan Klein’s “comedy”- and I feel a certain suspicion to those who laugh along. Even folks who may sit by (regular fans, employees of H3, guests) and evince a level of complicity- “I don’t think the joke was funny, but it’s ok that Ethan’s telling it. It’s just comedy.”

Given everything Ethan has done, this dynamic is easy to forget. Unfortunately, even without the lawsuits, hasbara, and harassment, Ethan Klein is a deeply unpleasant figure (and not at all funny.) At best, he is like Tony Hinchcliffe, just for CSA and child molestors rather than racists and MAGA.

At every turn, Destiny has made the wrong choice.

Destiny walked away from negotiations with Pxie, even after he had openly admitted to sharing her sexual recordings with Hope and Solo (if memory serves, he blanched at the suggestion that Pxie may expect $1 million- a number that she didn’t even bring up at the time- a fraction of what he has lost since the leaks.) He and Dan were so manipulative and shady in negotiations that Pxie, who initially tried to keep the story as quiet as possible, chose a public lawsuit- despite the reputational and emotional cost.

Destiny then tried to conceal evidence in the case, doctoring chat logs and delegating the organization of subpoenaed evidence to mouthbreathers in his community (and AI). Instead of paying for a reliable third party, and he tried to delete incriminating chat logs and doctored dates. If the evidence was so incriminating, he should’ve settled- openly acknowledging fault and paying whatever Pxie asked for in reparations.

Destiny then chose to reveal to Willy Mac that he held on to sexual recordings of Rose- recordings taken WHEN SHE WAS A TEENAGER! In doing so, he forced even his allies in the slop commentary space to publicly distance themselves (leading Destiny to crashout further and potentially sabotage his most useful professional contacts.) This has weakened Ethan Klein, his biggest tacit ally, by tarnishing H3 by association (and forcing them to call him out for CSAM.)

Destiny can’t stop posting and streaming about the lawsuit- a fact that is already leading to court sanctions.

Destiny has turned on most of his DGG orbiters- thinning his squad to an open pedophile and untalented toadies who can’t represent his positions effectively.

Destiny has openly endorsed harassment and doxxing- tarnishing whatever remained of his credibility, and undermining his ostensible rhetorical strategy (ie deflect and focus attention on “snarkers” who supposedly “dox and harass” him and aligned creators, like Ethan Klein.)

Steven can‘t effectively represent his interests. Even when you consider Steven’s actions from a pro DGG perspective, his actions have been DISASTROUS! At every moment, he has chosen the cheap, temporary sense of sadistic authority over his longterm and PR goals.

The man has lost his mind- and it’s been a pleasure to watch. I hope he keeps it up!

I’m happy that Ethan’s dropped the frivolous lawsuit, but I can’t help but feel cynical about it.

For months, Ethan has being using his wealth to legally threaten and harass smaller creators and private individuals who criticize him. He has gone after people who can’t afford to fight back, and has done so in a way only rich Americans (and British Commonwealth) assholes can do.

Despite all his bluster, it only takes one Charlie video to make Ethan back down. If Charlie, or someone on his level, really gave a shit about freedom of speech on YouTube (or even supporting educational content about the genocide in Gaza), they could’ve called Ethan out months ago. Apparently Charlie, or creators on his level, just have that kind of sway over Ethan Klein.

It’s frustrating to see how much sway checked out rich people with large channels have over the platform. They don’t deserve that kind of pull.

The livelihoods, safety and freedom of folks on YouTube shouldn’t be in the hands of some chuds who blundered into wealth and fame a decade ago. These are not people whom we should take seriously, nor look to as moral or political authorities. Yet, as with legacy media, the entire informational ecosystem seems to revolve around them.

I can‘t wait until Charlie, Ethan and all these other legacy YouTubers are irrelevant. If nothing else, it is worth remembering how shallow and unserious YouTube is as a space.

What depresses me about the Gaza genocide, aside from the raw horror inflicted on innocent people, is the fact that so many accept it.

Our political leadership- and the leadership of most European states- will support genocide if it benefits them. So long as a sufficient number of wealthy, powerful politicians identify with the genocidaires- the US and EU will arm and fund mass murder. In these conditions, those who speak out and stand for human rights will be punished.

We will see worse. I look with trepidation on the efforts being made monitor and track dissidents, and I feel a sick when I consider the efforts of the US government to form registries of folks seeking gender affirming care. In Florida, and much of the country in its wake, lgbtq folks in healthcare and education will face sanctions for simply expressing their identity, or supporting others who identify as lgbtq.

Undocumented folks have already faced mass repression, as have legal migrants across the US and EU. There are tens of thousands (far more if you count those detained in states bordering the US and EU, like El Salvador, Turkey and Libya) who sit in prison for simply attempting to find a better life. The right of asylum, established after the destruction of WW2 is all but a dead letter.

The rich and powerful haves abandoned the pretense of legality- and are willing to engineer mass repression and murder to sustain their prerogatives. Our economy has selected for the most misanthropic, cynical, and narcissistic individuals to luck (or crime) their way into the greatest share of wealth and power. There is nothing to restrain the Thiels, Musks, Altmans and Andreesens from blundering into collective self destruction.

I fear that worse will follow. All the conditions are set for a truly dystopian future.

I’m glad he made the common sense call on the lawsuit being bullshit, but he gets all the background information and context wrong.

Charlie doesn’t seem aware of what Ethan has been saying about Ian and Anisa FOR MONTHS! He also seems to buy the “CPSgate” narrative uncritically, and expressed support for Ethan’s litigation against Reddit and snark sub mods.

I also get the impression that he accepts or agrees with a lot of the Idubbbz hate on the platform, and may personally dislike him.

It’s good that he called out the lawsuit, but I really wish people didn’t take this guy seriously. He’s credulous and clearly biased by whatever big content creators tell him.