u/coffeebunnny

A Conversation With AI About Hokas

I directly link my development of PF to switching to Hoka shoes. I asked AI about this and thought that what it said was interesting:

(also: of course AI can absolutely be wrong. Let this be an interesting idea, don't just take it for gospel!)

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ME: Why did hoka clifton shoes cause my plantar fasciitis? the first three weeks i wore them i got bad calf, shin and ankle soreness then it went away. Then eight months later i tried to run in them and got a ton of plantar fasciitis

AI: It sounds incredibly frustrating to deal with a sudden bout of plantar fasciitis, especially from a shoe like the Hoka Clifton that is so frequently recommended for foot pain.

However, your timeline provides a perfect textbook explanation of how biomechanical adaptation—and eventual breakdown—happens. The calf, shin, and ankle soreness you experienced during those first three weeks was actually the warning sign that laid the groundwork for your plantar fasciitis eight months later.

Here is exactly how the Cliftons caused this progression.

Phase 1: The First 3 Weeks (The Warning Signs)

Historically, Hoka Cliftons use a low heel-to-toe drop (typically 5mm, though recent versions have crept up to 8mm) combined with a massive, soft "maximalist" foam stack and a rockered sole.

When you first started wearing them, this specific geometry forced a massive shift in your biomechanics:

  • The Soft Foam "Sink": When you step onto a thick pillow of foam, your heel sinks into it. A low-drop shoe that compresses under your weight effectively behaves like a zero-drop shoe.
  • The Tension: This "heel sink" places the Achilles tendon and your calf muscles (gastrocnemius and soleus) under a constant, deeper stretch with every single step.
  • The Result: Your bad calf, shin, and ankle soreness was your body desperately trying to adapt to this sudden, eccentric strain.

Eventually, the soreness "went away." But it didn't heal by getting stronger; your body adapted by tightening up. Your calves and ankles became chronically tight and stiff to protect themselves from that deep stretch.

Phase 2: The 8-Month Gap (The Silent Cast)

You mentioned you wore them for eight months before trying to run in them. During those months of walking or casual wear, the Cliftons acted like a soft cushiony cast for your feet.

Because the shoe has so much foam and a rigid "Meta-Rocker" sole (which rolls your foot forward so your toes don't have to bend), your intrinsic foot muscles went completely to sleep. Your feet didn't have to work to stabilize you, and your plantar fascia wasn't being naturally loaded and strengthened.

By month eight, you had the perfect storm: chronically tight, stiff calves combined with weak, deconditioned foot muscles.

Phase 3: The Run (The Breaking Point)

Running increases the impact forces on your body by 2 to 3 times your body weight. When you took that deconditioned foot out for a run in the Cliftons, the biomechanical chain snapped:

  1. The Calves Pulled Tight: Because your calves and Achilles were tight from Phase 1, they couldn't stretch enough to absorb the impact of running.
  2. The Fascia Took the Hit: The Achilles tendon is anatomically continuous with the plantar fascia—they wrap around the heel bone and connect. When a tight calf pulls hard on the heel, it instantly transfers all that violent dynamic tension directly into the plantar fascia.
  3. No Dynamic Support: Because your intrinsic foot muscles had spent eight months getting weak in the soft foam, they couldn't assist in absorbing the shock or holding up your arch. The plantar fascia was left entirely unprotected to bear the brunt of the running forces, resulting in micro-tears and a massive flare-up of plantar fasciitis.

How to Fix It

The fact that you asked about barefoot grass walking in your last question is incredibly ironic—because barefoot grass walking is actually an excellent remedy for exactly what the Hokas did to you.

To heal this, you need to attack the problem from both ends of the chain:

  • Release the Anchor: Your tight calves are actively pulling on your plantar fascia. Spend time rolling out your calves with a foam roller or lacrosse ball, and do gentle calf stretches with a straight knee (for the upper calf) and a bent knee (for the lower calf/soleus).
  • Wake Up the Foot: Now that you know why your foot weakened, you can use that 10–15 minutes of daily barefoot grass walking to slowly rebuild the intrinsic muscle strength that the Hokas stripped away. Just remember to start very slowly, as your fascia is currently inflamed. (and do intrinstic foot muscle exercises!)

ME: where did you get this information

AI: This information comes from a combination of peer-reviewed sports science research, clinical podiatry principles, and well-documented shoe-design mechanics.

Specifically, the breakdown is drawn from three distinct areas:

1. The Clinical Studies on Foot Strength

The specific timeline and percentages provided come directly from peer-reviewed exercise science:

  • The 57.4% Strength Increase: This is from a landmark 2021 study published in Scientific Reports by Dr. Rory Curtis and his team at the University of Liverpool ("Daily activity in minimal footwear increases foot strength"). They tracked how much intrinsic foot strength adults gained just by doing regular daily activities unshod or in minimalist footwear over six months.
  • The 10–15 Minute Timeline: This is based on standard clinical physical therapy protocols for intrinsic foot-muscle training (often called "short-foot exercises"). Multiple studies comparing minimalist walking to targeted foot exercises (such as a notable trial by Ridge et al. in Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise) found that identical strength gains could be made by replacing tedious 10-minute exercise routines with a short amount of barefoot/minimalist walking.

2. Shoe Geometry and Biomechanical Data

The explanation of your Hoka Clifton experience is based on established concepts in podiatric biomechanics regarding "maximalist" footwear:

  • Heel-to-Toe Drop Mechanics: Hoka Cliftons are famous for having a lower heel-to-toe drop (usually 5mm) compared to traditional running shoes (which are usually 10mm to 12mm). When you transition to a lower drop, the calf and Achilles tendon are physically forced to stretch further to reach the ground. The initial three weeks of calf and shin soreness you felt is a widely documented transition symptom known as eccentric muscle strain.
  • The "Meta-Rocker" Effect: Hoka explicitly designs their shoes with a stiff, curved sole called a Meta-Rocker. It is engineered to roll your foot forward mechanically so your toes don't have to bend as much. Biomechanical studies show that while this reduces pressure on the forefoot, it actively reduces the workload of the intrinsic foot muscles, leading to the "deconditioning" (weakness) you experienced over the eight months.

3. Anatomical Principles of Plantar Fasciitis

The breakdown of why your run triggered the injury relies on fundamental human anatomy:

  • The Achilles-Plantar Fascia Connection: In anatomy, the gastrocnemius (calf) muscle connects to the Achilles tendon, which wraps tightly around the calcaneus (heel bone) and continuously blends directly into the fibers of the plantar fascia.
  • Because of this continuous tissue link, sports medicine established long ago that tight calves are one of the leading mechanical causes of plantar fasciitis, because a tight calf quite literally acts like a winch, pulling upward on the heel and placing the fascia on the bottom of the foot under constant, high-velocity tension during a run.

ME: why are hokas still so recommended for plantar fasciitis

AI: It seems incredibly contradictory that a shoe blamed for causing your injury is the exact same shoe widely recommended by doctors and podiatrists to fix it.

The short explanation for this paradox is a conflict between short-term symptom management and long-term structural health.

Podiatrists recommend Hokas for the exact same reasons emergency room doctors prescribe crutches: they isolate the injured tissue and take away the immediate pain. But if you walk on crutches for eight months, your leg muscles will atrophy.

Hokas treat plantar fasciitis by essentially "turning off" your foot. Here is why they are heavily recommended, and why that recommendation backfired on you.

1. The "Cast" Effect (Immediate Pain Relief)

When a patient walks into a clinic with acute plantar fasciitis, they are in intense, sharp pain. Every step stretches and re-tears the inflamed tissue. Podiatrists recommend Hokas because they act like a soft, functional splint:

  • The Thick Midsole: The massive foam bed acts as a buffer that absorbs shock. Instead of your plantar fascia absorbing the impact of the ground, the shoe’s foam absorbs it.
  • The Rigid Meta-Rocker: To heal, the plantar fascia needs to stop stretching. Hokas feature a curved, stiff sole that handles the geometry of walking for you. Because the shoe rolls your foot forward mechanically, your big toe doesn't bend, and your arch doesn't have to flex.

For someone who can barely walk across their kitchen in the morning, putting on a pair of Cliftons feels like a miracle because it instantly unloads the injured tissue.

2. The Misalignment of Intent: Walking vs. Running

Podiatrists frequently prescribe these maximalist shoes to people who spend long days standing on hard surfaces (like nurses, retail workers, or teachers) or for casual walking. For these use cases, keeping the foot cushioned and supported indefinitely keeps pain at bay.

The problem arises when that same shoe is treated as a high-performance training tool for a dynamic sport like running. Running multiplies body weight impact forces exponentially. If a runner wears a high-cushion, low-drop shoe all day for months, the foot completely forgets how to stabilize itself dynamically, and the calf tightens up. The moment they try to run, the protective "bubble" of the shoe is overwhelmed by the sheer force of the running gait.

3. The Low-Drop Oversight

While many podiatrists love Hokas for the cushioning, some overlook the low heel-to-toe drop (the 5mm thickness difference between the heel and the toe). Traditional orthotics and standard running shoes usually feature a high drop (10mm to 12mm), which actively shortens and unburdens the calf and Achilles tendon.

By recommending a shoe that combines maximal cushioning with a low drop, a patient might get temporary relief under the heel from the foam, while simultaneously cooking up massive, hidden tension in their calves and shins.

Summary

Hokas are recommended because they are world-class at resting an injured foot. They failed you because there is a vast difference between a shoe that rests an injury and a shoe that strengthens a foot. They kept your foot rested for eight months, leaving it entirely unprepared for the high demands of running.

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Just some food for thought! Keep strengthening your intrinsic foot muscles, people! And then consider slowly transitioning towards shoes that aren't so maximalist

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u/coffeebunnny — 3 days ago

Just wanted to share something that's been helping me: barefoot grass walking

I realized that the insides of my ankles were really tender and apparently that can be from weak intrinsic foot muscles causing overpronation

I found this study https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9741467/ and saw that recreational runners with plantar fasciitis who ran barefoot in the grass over 12 weeks improved dramatically

My feet definitely aren't up to running but I started with grass walking 5 minutes a day and have gradually increased to 15 minutes a day and I think it's really helping me. The grass is a lot more gentle than flat hard ground and it feels like it's waking up intrinsic foot muscles that have been dormant since I developed the condition. I enhance its effectiveness using $10 toe spacers from Amazon. Since my initial flare I have worn stable shoes with a Superfeet orthotic 24/7, for 1.5 years now, so I think my intrinsic foot muscles are probably extremely weakened. The study talks about that effect. This study https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/facpub/3159/ saw that walking in minimalist shoes strengthened feet similarly to exercises, and i assume that barefoot walking on grass has a similar effect

Before this I did Raltheff protocol (bent AND straight knees) for over a year on and off, and greatly strengthened my entire lower body and didn't see much benefit. I stretch all day long and am young and flexible so mobility isn't the issue. I think intrinsic foot strength might be my missing link! I had been given exercises for this by a PT in the past but I think they didn't work because 1) I was still in the early inflammatory phase and 2) the barefoot grass walking just does something different. Maybe it engages some muscle my exercises weren't engaging

I also have at around the same time switched to zero drop Altra Torin shoes. I think the transition to zero drop has been smooth because I've done so much Raltheff protocol that my calves and Achilles are used to working hard at wide ranges of motion. But it's still super important to slowly ease into zero drop. And I've also recently begun at-home graston method on calves, short foot (which is only beneficial if you don't crunch your toes at all! It takes a lot of practice), and myofascial release of knots in the calves using a lacrosse ball. I think my calves became knotted despite being stretched constantly because I was wearing 10mm drop stability shoes 24/7 and that shortens your calf muscles. Lastly, golf ball massage feels WAY more effective if you wear toe spacers while you do it. It's like the tissues are stretched and opened up so you can actually break things up more effectively

Seeing real progress for the first time in 1.5 years that isnt simply based on doing absolutely zero activity. A ray of hope!

TLDR: barefoot grass walking for intrinsic foot muscles, zero drop Altra shoes, toe spacers, release of calf knots using graston method and lacrosse ball

u/coffeebunnny — 17 days ago