u/cond6

0.999... cannot be defined as the largest number less than 1.

There is someone on this thread that is trying to peddle the nonsense that 0.999... is defined as the largest number less than 1.

Can we define a number by some arbitrary property? Yes, absolutely.

For example we define the number sqrt(2) as the number x>0 such that x^2=2.
We define the golden ratio ψ=a/b for two numbers a>b>0 if a/b=(a+b)/a. This is also equivalent to the solution to the quadratic equation ψ^2 = ψ+1. 

Both of these numbers are roots of quadratic equations. Can we define numbers that aren’t roots of equations? Yes, the transcendentals like pi and e are.
As everybody knows pi is defined as the ratio circumference/diameter.
e is defined in at least two ways: the formula for the annual interest where the rate r is compounded n periods per year is (1+r/n)^n, then e^r= lim_{n→∞}(1+r/n)^n. Alternatively f(x)=e^x can be defined as the function that equals its own derivative f(x)=f’(x). In both cases e=lim_{n→∞} Σ_{k=1}^n 1/k!.
pi solves the integral pi=int_{-1,1}(1-x^2)^(-1/2)dx and can be expressed as a variety of infinite sums.
Both are transcendental numbers that take their value from the way the number is literally defined.

So can we define a number x as the largest number less than 1? 

Firstly, this is not a solution to some polynomial equation, nor is it defined in some sensible fashion like pi or e. 

But ignoring this insurmountable problem, we run into the issue that there simply is no number that can possible satisfy that definition. There is a trivial proof by contradiction that has been made by many of this sub (but some with learning difficulties refuse to accept the proof and keep peddling disingenuous nonsense). If x purports to be the largest number less than y the then x<y and for all numbers z<y we must have x≥z. Since x<y it is the case that x<(x+y)/2<y directly contradicting the claim that x is weakly greater than all numbers less than y. There is no way to even define a largest number less than another. (Archimedes drops his mic.)

Why? Because the set of numbers z<y is open (or half open depending on the LHS of the interval). There are always numbers between any z and y.

A number u is an upper bound of a set S if u≥s for all s∈S. The least upper bound is the smallest of the upper bounds (if it exists). If x was the largest number less than one it would be the least upper bound for the set of all numbers less than one. However the least upper bound of that set is one itself. One is an upper bound of all numbers less than one. Then the proof we just did for some x<1 as a candidate upper bound proves that one is the least upper bound.

Of course the fact that 0.999...=1 and 1 is the least upper bound of all numbers less than one mean that 0.999 is the LUB. However even so it's not the largest number strictly less than 1 for obvious reasons.

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u/cond6 — 5 days ago

A direct demonstration that 1/10^n&gt;0 is only true for finite n.

In SPP's way of viewing things 1/10^(n)&gt;0. This is important because SPP defines 0.999...=1-1/10^(n).

Using logarithms we can explore this further. Suppose that 1/10^(n) =10^(-n)&gt;0. If 10^(-n)&gt;0 then we have 10^(n)<∞. I think this is uncontroversial. Given some finite starting value if n rounds of "downscaling" doesn't make it zero, then the same amount of upscaling won't make it infinite. (Or x<∞ implies that 1/x>0.

The logarithm function is monotonic, which means that x<y and log(x)<log(y) are equivalent; and if x<∞ then log(x)<∞ too. (I'm using this as pretty standard shorthand notation rather than treating infinity as a number.)

One of the properties of the log function is that log(a^b)=b*log(a). Using this we have log(10^n)=n*log(10)<∞. I haven't specified the base of the log, so let's use base-10 since log_10(10)=1, and thus n*log_10(10)=n<∞.

So 10^(-n)****>0 is equivalent to n<∞.

Perhaps this sub should be renamed r/finitenines.

u/cond6 — 8 days ago

SPP: What's the square root of pi brud? Go ahead. Make my day.

Locked immediately because not a genuine question, but here's an answer:

https://preview.redd.it/yjple23f570h1.png?width=1310&format=png&auto=webp&s=981ead13c89125625a54ecd7192729021638075a

Can you please do the same for sqrt(0.999...)?

And before you flip out over not writing down digits, recall that a number is not the same thing as its representation. The number 1/2 can be expressed in many ways, but the number is an abstract concept. We don't care about decimal representations other than being able to express in a convenient but by no means unique way a number. Decimal representations aren't a number. They're a way to write down a number to convey the abstract notion from author's brain to reader's brain.

So an infinite series is how pi is defined. The integral above is one way to express the square-root of pi. And I usual express answers that involve root-pi in terms of root-pi. For example the probability density function of a normal random variable. Or, if z~N(0, sigma) then E(|z|)=sigma*sqrt(2/pi). I don't write sigma*sqrt(2/3.14159....) because I'm not an animal.

But back to the question: What is a the square root of 0.999...?

Don't engage in embarrassing "I know you are, but what am I" arguments. I gave you an expression for root-pi other than root-pi. Can you do the same?

Edit: typo.

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u/cond6 — 12 days ago

SPP has recently been posting riffs on the theme of:

>limits don't apply to limitless summations.

and

>Limits don't apply to the limitless dum dum.

for example here, though there are many examples in other threads, every time someone points out that the standard definition of an infinite sum is as the limit of the partial sums. If the partial sums converge the value of the limit is assigned to the sum, and if it doesn't converge but diverges to positive or negative infinity the value of the infinite sum is informally set to plus or minus infinity (if the series is say n*(-1)^n it oscillates and is given neither value).

However it is important to note that words have multiple meanings. The best example of this that I know of is Four Candles. Love the Two Ronnies.

The English word limit has many meanings that depend on context. SPP tries a misdirection when he implies that one definition is used when another is clearly implied.

The standard dictionary definition of limit "the greatest amount, number, or level of something that is either possible or allowed". I agree such use of the word limit to refer to the infinite or infinite summations is wrong.

However it is dishonest and disingenuous to try to impose that interpretation on the actual use of the word limit in the context of infinite summation. In mathematics "a limit is the value that a function (or sequence) approaches as the argument (or index) approaches some value" (from Wiki). So the limit of the function f(n)=n as n approaches infinity is infinity. The limit very literally is infinity. So you saying "limits" don't apply to infinity in this context says "infinity" doesn't apply to infinity.

SPP is that your argument? Can you be honest and not distort what people mean when they say we do infinite sums by taking limits of partial sums?

u/cond6 — 16 days ago