u/filipinoboy11

If its alright with everyone id like to split off Israel from this and discuss it in a later topic as I feel like if Israel is part of it it will be the only thing discussed.

If I were to simplify the position of DSA in this field it could be summed up into two things. First that the US empire should end and as a collorary to that the US should stop acting like the first of equals and instead join more multilateral organizations and bind itself to international law.

First of I dont necessarily have a problem with international treaties. If you think everyone to the right of DSA is Hitler well even he had international pacts with Japan and Italy and honored them for the most part. If anything its Japan who did not honor it by not declaring war on Russia.

The problem with the current international treaties is that it tries to bind you to things you did not agree to. Take the recent Iran deal. Iran agreed to get 300 bn in funds and to charge after 60 days. Trump says they agreed to open the straits but not the benefits. Take Oslo. Everyone says Israel agreed to give the Palestinians a state. When in reality all Oslo said is there would be negotiations. Take the JCPOA. Everyone thought it would be as binding as treaty when in reality every GOP president said they would leave it. Take even the Geneva Conventions. The US or Israel did not agree to the additional protocols but all of a sudden they are bound by it if the opponents agree to it.

People and nation states agree to what they agree to. The problem with international law is it constantly insists that you agreed to things you didnt. If were being honest if advocates of international law stopped trying to expand it to force nation states to bend to their will fewer people would have a problem with it.

On to the bigger thing which is the American Empire. Well discuss the benefits of Empire later on but first of lets talk about the aftermath. The DSA types seem to believe that there will be this multipolar utopia after the US empire breaks down where every nation is independent.

That is not true. After the US empire there will either be another empire in China or more likely a bi polar world with China and the US heading 2 co equal empires. Thats how it always happens historically. Rome did descend into the dark ages right away. First it split into Eastern and Western empires and then into multiple power centers in the dark ages. I would actually argue multiple co equal states is even more dangerous as that is what encourages wars since multiple states beleive they can win and start wars.

Be that as it may why should the US empire be preserved? In my opinion and I know many people will disagree with this is the anglo-saxon empires actually have a unique characteristic in that they constantly do altruistic things that empires in the past wouldnt have done.

The UK ended the trans atlantic slave trade. That was a major harm to its economy. It could have just looked the other way and moved on. The US protects international shipping for free. In the past this would never have happened. If you were a Spanish merchant you recieved protection from the Spanish Navy. If an English Ship saw you raided by pirates they would probably laugh at you. In exchange the Spanish merchant pays the Navy in the form of taxes etc. None of the thousands of ships transiting the world pay the US anything. That act alone massively drives down the cost for everyone. Theres no guarantee that future empires would do this.

Does the US act for itself and make other countries act to its benefit? Sure. But I contend any empire would do that. With the US you at least get some benefits to go along with it.

I feel like this should be a big deal but isnt? Ive been told by anti war media that UAE is not being attacked as they are paying Iran off by delivering gold and frozen assets yet they are now cutting off trade?

How much trade can they do if the ports are blockaded?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/2026-08-16/ty-article-magazine/.premium/once-rejecting-israeli-citizenship-golan-druze-are-now-getting-ready-to-vote/000001a0-0a64-d88f-abbf-deedb15f0000

some good news from Israel. As most of you know the apartheid regime does not let the people from occupied territories vote. However for the first time in this election the formerly Syrian Druze from the Golan Heights have elected to take Israeli citizenship and will be voting this election!

It seems like they were targeted by Hezbollah in some attacks which changed their mind. Of course no proof was presented that these werent false flag attacks from Israel.

I think its fair to say that no matter where you are on the DSA spectrum you would like everyone to be tougher on the police and the sentencing to be more lax and focused on rehabilitation. Id imagine you would also like nicer facilities for criminals in jail etc.

Theres this phrase among progressives "Progressive except for Palestine". It generally means you have progressive principles except for Palestine because it becomes harder. Theres also another phrase the DSA wont acknowledge "Pro worker but for Police"

In a regular workplace the DSA would love to promote unions and would understand that workers slow down or dont give their best when they feel mistreated by management or even customers.

However when it comes to the police it is turned around. The unions must be busted and the police can be treated as badly as possible and they must still perform their duties. Or they can quit as the DSA would say.

Police and other law enforcement are just like every other worker. If they feel that management and customers are being unfair they will not perform their best. They will take sick days. Why wont they just quit? Well they need the income. Again just like any other worker.

I find the "Defund the Police" crowd to be particularly cowardly. They hide behind a shield by saying that they never managed to enact any of their policies when they know full well its the act of the demonization of the police and their reaction to it which caused so much chaos after George Floyd.

The question then arises should police be treated better? In a perfect world no. Everyone should be equal. However I would ask you who would you treat better a server getting you your morning coffee or a doctor who is about to perform open heart surgery on you? Its up to us to decide on the value we want to place on police and law enforcement in general.

The DSA has some variety when it comes to immigration. The extreme would say no human being is illegal, anybody who wants asylum should be given it etc. The more moderate would say they want safe routes to request asylum and for more asylum cases to be heard and more people granted it.

Wherever you may fall in the spectrum we can all agree you want a more accepting system than one that we have under Trump and Miller.

That makes sense because you view immigration in all its types as good.

On the other hand the other side believes that immigration, specifically illegal immigration and by its current use asylum seeking is one of the worse problems to have in a country. In a normal healthy situation when you do well you are rewarded. Illegal immigration switches that reward structure around as when your country does better you attract more illegal immigrants compounding your difficulties.

At this point you can mention that neighboring countries usually takes in asylum seekers. Which is true. Pakistan for example recently expelled 2 million afghans. They didnt go to the US they went to Pakistan. However we can alll agree if they had a choice they would go to the US. They just didnt have the resources too. The reward structure pops up again as the more prosperous you are the more people are willing to spend.

If you care about the home countries this hurts them as well. Each person you see camped out in the US border more likely than not represents the yearly income of entire small villages or families that had to pool all their savings to send that person there. Thats money not being used in the local economy to buy stuff or start businesses.

At this point the DSA person would waive a study by some think tank or other showing that immigration is good for the economy. Immigration and its study is one of the strangest sciences. Normally a scientist would try to be as precise as possible when using words. You dont use Atlantic River for example you use Atlantic Ocean. Immigration is the only topic I know of where the scientists actively resists the urge to be as precise as possible. Everyone has to be an immigrant. You cant be a high net worth immigrant, a low skill immigrant, an illegal immigrant. They resist each cohort being judged seperately and instead insist that the entire cohort of immigrant must be judged as one.

On the other hand the Trump admin has made the determination that high net worth individuals are positive to the economy (golden visa types etc) and low skill and resource individuals are turned away at the border as they hurt the economy.

The major difficulty with immigration is that your policies dont matter as much as the perception of your policies. People think its a domestic issue but its not as the people impacted by it, the immigrant is judging whether or not to take the risk and investment from where he is. More than anything perception matters. Trump is viewed as an ogre on immigration. If you change him with say Biden then more illegal immigrants will come as they perceive he will not be as harsh with them.

At this point your probably wondering doesnt this mean that any step leftward of the extreme right were trump is will trigger a crisis? Thats true. Its sad but it is the way the world works now. There used to be honor in the asylum system. Only the truly desperate would use it. Now, coached by some NGO or lawyer probably, every single person in the border is an asylum seeker.

DSA types would be very aware of the military industrial complex and its tendency to self perpetuate. Why do you think the humanitarian industrial complex would work any different?

At this point you would probably ask why not safe and legal routes? Now if you believe only some types of immigration is desirable you would say we dont want safe and legal routes we only want to take in those we deem to be of benefit. If you believe all immigration is good then yes you can do this and grant asylum to everyone.

If this was too long TLDR: any move towards the DSA will trigger a border crisis worse than Biden. Remember the right has already learned that they can ship asylum seekers to New York.

I know almost everyone here is a fan of the DSA and want more of their type in power. Personally I am not a believer and wanted to put my thoughts into a discussion to learn more about the issue. Hopefully the mods will let this stay up.

As much as possible ill try to steelman the DSA argument. Of course I might miss certain points so please correct me. For this post ill just discuss the economy. If we have good discussions I can move on to foreign policy and other stuff.

So if I were to ask a DSA type person to sum up his economic model in one sentence it would be to be more like Europe. The specifics will vary but thats the general direction of travel.

Up front I will say I dont have a high opinion of Europe. If you were to say you want to model the economy to be more like China I would be more supportive as it has been a success story.

Elon Musk said that there would be a civil war in Europe and everyone scoffed at him. It would be laughable if you think about Europe as it is now. Everyone is too comfortable. However I think thats about to change. In five to ten years I think you will see major European companies fall. Volkswagen and the like will be bought out by the Chinese and will be turned into final production plants to get around tariffs. The service sector will be taken over by the US. Id imagine someone will make a play for Lloyds say a lloyds of New York or whatever and will say that the US navy will only protect ships insured by it and at that time the City of London will be dead. Fast forward to maybe 20-30 years from now and I see the incomes of Europe dropping and the incomes of peaceful African states like Morocco rising to near equilibrium. At that time civil war will be likely.

So what is the European Model that the DSA wants? Essentially its High Regulation, to keep companies in its best behavior towards consumers, workers, etc and high tax to pay for benefits towards its citizens. The problem is all the major European economies are trying to get away from that.

Macron has been trying forever to get the retirement age down and pensions down. Mertz wants to decrease regulation and increase retirment age as well. Burnham just seated in the UK is looking at the triple lock. All the major economies have realized they cant afford the system they have but it is too late. The population is too used to the benefits given and would rather increase taxes rather than decrease benefits intensifying the death spiral.

At this point the DSA member would say we dont want to model ourselves after the major European economies like France, Germany, or the UK but would rather have Norway, Denmark, and Sweden.

Even those countries are cutting back on benefits and even Norway can only be that generous because of the SWF funded by North Sea Oil. Something that the DSA would be against anyway.

I bring up the oil because the DSA types tend to go on jihads against certain industries. Right now it is data centers (AI), the MIC, and fossil fuels. Which also happen to be our best exports (if you equate AI with services)

Even Burnham in Britain was asked what he would like to invest in and he said Drone and electronic chip factories to provide jobs which is essentially part of the MIC and AI food chain.

The best argument the DSA makes is that putting more money into the hands of the working man would boost the local economy. The problem with that is that if it were true then Europe would not be suffering the way it is. In fact its shown that the higher the regulation and tax the lower the wage. Complicating that even if there were extra money there would be no guarantee you would spend it in the local economy. Theres items like food etc where you have no choice but theres also items like luxuries or clothes that you can get anywhere in this globalized world at the lowest price point.

This in a nutshell is why I think DSA economic policies will not work. Please pick it apart.

Iran has passed a resolution that Hormuz will close until the behavior of America changes. Unlike JD Vance who consistently uses this line Iran has given guidelines to what they mean.

• The US is forbidden from threatening Iran or disparaging its religion or beliefs.

• The US must pay reparations for the 2 wars.

• The US must withdraw bases near Iran

• All wars in Lebanon, Yemen, Palestine, and other Iranian allies must end.

• All Iranian frozen assets returned, blockade lifted, sanctions lifted.

This is in addition to any agreement with Oman.

I just wanted to share some positive news from Gaza for a change as BP only focuses on negative news from it.

As you know Gaza had a hunger crisis a year ago however a recent study from UNICEF based on acute malnutrition by weight for height for children under five years old shows that the problem is largely over. Here are the percentages it found

UK 0.4% Gaza 0.5% Germany 0.5% finland 1.6% Egypt 3.3% Iran 4.3% World average 6.6% Syria 11.5% Yemen 16.8% Sudan 16.3%

Thank you very much to everyone for donating to Gazans if you did and for bringing this issue to light!

Looks like the details of the strait deal has been leaked.

• Resumption of MOU

• US and Israeli flagged ships to be barred from Hormuz

• Other US allies must pay compensation to Iran or be banned. Upon payment of compensation they will be charged 20%

• Other ships to be charged 5-7%

• Russian and Chinese flagged ships travel free

• Iran controls entrance to Hormuz and Oman controls exit. Iran may veto any ship that exits in the Omani area.

Looks very harsh for the US. Normally I wouldnt think this was true but I also thought that there was no way the MOU could be true but here we are.

As you know 60000 people from Morocco entered Spanish territory in Ceuta the other day. The information given by the press is that they are all Moroccan however I have not seen any attempt by Spain to ascertain any details about the people entering Spain. Multiple friends of the show from Kyle to Hasan to Cenk and others believe this is a plot by Israel to punish Spain for supporting Palestine. Do we think the same?

As an additional note I would like to register that in the event of entry of illegal aliens it is a perfectly legal for the Spanish Government to

• Refuse to provide them with food , water, and shelter

• Refuse to even register any Asylum claims

• Refuse to find out nationalities of origins to find out where to deport them to

• Use the military to march them straight back accross the border they came from.

I hope that when other governments handle this issue in the same way they are granted the same grace.

Trump has announced that Hamas would be disarming and as they disarm Israel would withdraw.

Hamas has said they would only do that if Israel leaves Gaza first.

Israel says they will only leave if Hamas disarms first.

PIJ (2nd biggest armed group after hamas) says they are not even part of the deal.

I truly dont understand why Trump would announce something to have it fall flat in less than 24 hours. I mean I can understand lying but there has to be some benefit to it.

Also on a related topic I see a lot of fearmongering about Iran attacking Ukraine. Iran will not attack Ukraine even if Ukraine keeps hitting Iranian ships. Attacking Ukraine is like hitting Jimmy from South Park. He might deserve it. You might feel good. But there is no way you will come out of it looking good. So far the Europeans have been ambivalent about the war in Iran. Can you imagine what their reaction would be if their precious Ukraine is attacked?

I thought we could use an occasional thread to discuss the war.

Houthis - Houthis begin to blockade Saudi Arabia. Trump makes additional threats to treat attacks from the Houthis as if they came from Iran i.e. destroy bridges etc.

At this point we have to remind everyone that reprisals are against International Humanitarian Law and is a war crime. Even if the other party commits what you may call war crimes you cannot respond with your own. Your avenue to justice would be to file a case in Geneva. This means that even if Iran destroys desalination plants the US is not allowed to retaliate. Note that UK and other countries that allow the US to use their bases are liable as well and complicit in war crimes.

Also by definition every structure is deemed to be for civilian use. It is up to the aggressor to prove in a court of law that the target is indeed military.

Despite having a mutual defense treaty no word on Pakistan.

There are some reports that the other Yemeni government in the South are engaged in combat with the Houthis. They claim they captured 7 Houthi fighters. The numbers are so small that I dont think it will escalate past border skirmishes.

The Houthis also seem to be letting Chinese flagged tankers thru even if they came from KSA.

Iran - Mutilple strikes by the US as usual. I dont think they did any appreciable damage aside from hitting the same 100 defensive sites they always do.

Iran destroys fuel tanks, helicopter landing zones, radars, patriot missiles, and some drone warehouse.

US getting spanked in the war zone as usual.

The Omani route has been mined as well per the IRGC.

Lebanon - Looks like the hand over of the 2 pilot zones have been completed. I really dont see this going anywhere. In afghanistan when we armed their soldiers half of them would just join the Taliban. I expect the same thing to happen with the LAF and Hezbollah. This is not by any stretch a new and unforseen event. Ceasar recruited soldiers from amongst the Gauls and when vercingetorix rose up they all joined him.

Post any news I happen to miss and discuss.