r/DragonBallGT

I know GT follows Z anime more than anything, but it can really follow movies too? Vegeta reacting like it's the first time he heard about Metamoru Fusion in GT doesn't help to place GT next to the movies and the appearance of Cooler might be just a cameo.

There's some apparent " debunks " on Sugoroku Space outer scale running around , and i'd like to address these arguments.

For reference , these are the basic sum ups of scale and direct feats against Sugoroku Space — Base-Goku-kamehameha-collapses-Sugoroku-Space.jpg

Super-Baby-2-RDB-feat.jpg

Between Time and Space

Argument : " This statement is hyperbolic and doesn't actually mean being between time and space , it is a linguistic and grammatical leap to consider it separate from space and time based on that "

Answer : The linguistic and grammatical leap would be claiming " between " doesn't mean " between " rather than " in " and anyone with basic understanding of language and grammar should already be able to tell that , if the place is in space and time at all then " between " becomes simply a false usage of the word.

There was an attempt to push this into vagueness as well saying it's stated " between dimensions " then presuming specifically the 3d interpretation of that statement and using 3d logic to say " between would mean being bound by " which falls apart the moment i bring up the fact again that the specific details of what exactly it's " between " is stated explicitly and that's time and space. A 3d interpretation could only ever exist as even just a possibility if that vague statement was all that existed for its dimensional scale instead of the specific one which says it's between time and space itself , so the desperate attempt to replace it doesn't work.

The only instances where such a clear statement could be possibly refuted as " hyperbole " hence not meaning what it explicitly states , would be at times when it is being made for places in a franchise with no alternate space-times making it possible that they may be overhyping their alternate space-times. Then the use of the term " concept " becomes necessary because otherwise they may not be presenting any clear understanding of a difference between alternate space-times and transcending space and time. This argument does not work on the dragon ball franchise at the time of GT which has been shown to understand well what an alternate-space time is rather than ever using this explicit outer statement for them. I'm also getting to the subspace argument but it should be known before that , to contest against this first statement, HTC itself would need to be called outer not driven to that conclusion by subjective interpretation of a statement that isn't made for HTC .Till then , the argument against this statement specifically stays debunked.

Conclusion : Between time and space is explicit wording simply meaning what it says, immune to allegations of inherent overhype.

Subspace

Argument : HTC is included in Subspace too so it means Subspace as a whole is alternate space-time and hence Sugoroku Space is too for being included under the same umbrella term of Subspace .

Answer : This discussing world of DB is the full page from Chozenshuu 4 released in 2013 that the Subspace scan comes from , and the boxed part is the statement for Subspace which is titled as <Subspace > being an area that belongs to no world as the heading. Repeating the same underneath then saying " in this enigmatic realm , concepts of space and time do not exist " , with " enigmatic " signifying it's not simple to grasp already , before stating HTC and Sugoroku Space exist in Subspace. It is clear that HTC has been well established as an alternate space-time so far in the series , and here it is explicitly stating " concepts of space and time do not exist " in the larger category of Subspace . The problem with considering one of these simply wrong is that none are a vague implication or typical hyperbole wording of db , they're very clear cut statements and the confusing ( enigmatic ) nature is only in their relationship with each other by extension, not the wording used in isolation for either. So some sort of explanation is likely since it doesn't make sense for them to completely forget the meaning of space and time in respect to HTC nearly two decades later in another condensed serialisation of existing info from the daizenshuus. Let's see if there's anything just in case

Translation of the same full Chozenshuu page shows this same guide also stating that the realms of the otherworld are in a hierarchal relationship where free movement from a lower to a higher realm isn't possible , other than stating the same for living world to the otherworld as well while depicting all the realms under a spherical structure. The daizenshuu 4 has the same which is explicitly stating the otherworld in a higher dimensional plane than the living world and it was made before GT . This clearly shows the description and representation of dimensional hierarchy in DB macrocosm consistently uses similar logic with their representation of the world since the start, having realms with explicitly established different planes of existence in the same sphere. Same is the case established with the relationship of overall Subspace and HTC , which means Subspace can have places transcending HTC's dimensional plane yet include HTC under its umbrella as a self contained space-time too. If the same old logic of dimensional hierarchy description and representation is repeating then such an explicit statement can't be simply taken as some false wording or a mistake and overwritten by pure headcanon. DB uses the umbrella as conceptual not physical. The main heading only says Subspace is an area that doesn't belong to any world which applies to both HTC and Sugoroku Space , and in the further description there seem to be some statements for including Sugoroku Space specific scaling. The only thing that changed in these guidebooks with the wording of having something go above the concept of time and space was the existence of Sugoroku Space which is included in Subspace so it'd be a reach to say the place being exclusively and explicitly stated between space and time in the show is not that, because almost 2 decades later an umbrella term made to include its existence also being established to have no concept of time and space , lists an alternate space-time under its broad category as well , where integration of different dimensional planes under one structure being how db usually presents cosmological categories since the start disproving the claim of simply false wording itself. This deconstructs the initial conclusion drawn by the argument to just a possibility rather than certainty. Let's look at more relevant info

Another page of the same chozenshuu discussing subspace in detail this time is the real deal . Translation of the subspace section in this page is confirming the possibility that i just said the earlier scan to be implying with the main heading becoming a certainty . Not changing any existing info of Sugoroku Space or HTC but just including the same in a broader category while this time only mentioning " not belong to any world " as the definition of Subspace which was still shown as the primary one and heading of Subspace in the earlier scan too. Which means establishing " the lack of concept of time and space " earlier among other sentences below the heading was only showing one scale among others of subspace rather than something applying to all of its individual inclusions, an area simply not belonging to any world of the db universe sphere is what's clearly and consistently shown as the definition of subspace not lacking concept of space and time because that's absent in this one which is discussing the same things in more detail. Proving the " lack of concept of space and time " was only in a combined mention of traits of subspace when it was not describing any detail of Sugoroku Space and HTC separately , and when it does that they stay the same as they have been , with subspace definition being limited to " not belongs to any world " rather than using " lack of concept of space and time " , the detailed section of Subspace in the same guidebook provides a clear picture on the strict definition of Subspace as a category which debunks this argument of having applied false wording to HTC completely.

This same scan was going around for downplaying Goku's feat ( which i'll get to as well) but while addressing HTC some people ofc use the half info which suits their narrative the best in trying to make it look like the creators are meaninglessly throwing around concept of space and time statements to then extend that logic to Sugoroku Space in the anime from nearly two decades ago and claim they exaggerated the time and space statement there too, when the full context makes clear they were neither stating that about nor even indirectly applying it to HTC in the first place .

The detailed description also mentions how time flows inside HTC as it has been stated before but no mention of the same in Sugoroku Space instead of repeating the same info that's already known even though they could've easily added it in if it was a space-time. Supporting evidence for why they could not is Sugoro and his son didn't age in Sugoroku Space even after playing 32,974,572 games . If we consider each game 30 minutes long that's still 2,000+ years worth of games they played yet other than Sugoro living through that , his kid was still a kid and after another 100 years in the end of GT it's stated everyone from before except Pan is gone and even she is an old lady now. So Sugoro's kid stayed a kid for thousands of years then died in 100 more ? There's no wiggling around this even with a reach of " oh that species could just age that way ", if time existed in there Sugoro himself lived thousands of years as an adult and his kid was still a kid when they got out so even if Sugoro passed away in the next few years his kid would easily have several thousands of years left to live on him, yet nobody except an old Pan is left in another 100 years. And this is purely calculating the years worth of games not even considering any time waiting for each next contender between the games which would happen if time inherently existed in this place like HTC , which makes it even more ridiculous not that the narrative against the lack of time isn't 6 feet under the ground already.

Hence this logic of cherrypicking a secondary statement used once for one of the multiple scales of Subspace while avoiding the well defined separate subspaces section with the strict , consistent and clear one line definition of subspace category in the same guide omitting the overall context to claim that db started casually going around using " concepts of time and space " for alternate space-time is debunked , and extension of that claim being that time exists in Sugoroku Space other than having invalid grounds, is also even separately debunked in the series as explained.

This argument was similar to pushing things into vagueness with the " between dimensions " replacing the more specific statement " between space and time " from the first point which allows a convenient downplay narrative as a possibility which can become believable with omission of context.

Conclusion : The strict definition of Subspace as an entire category is " not belonging to any world " in Chozenshuu 4, " lack of concept of space and time " was never stated for HTC and doesn't apply to it by default , only likely to be made for Sugoroku Space considering its explicit statement in the show falls in line, while having clearly reinforced the fact of HTC being an alternate space-time again unlike Sugoroku Space.

Between Life and Death

Argument : " No statement like this made / Sanzu river stated to not flow there/Only stated more perilous than Sanzu river "

Answer : Sanzu River is a mythical place between the living and the dead .

This scan captures a sum up of the interaction between Sugoro and Goku around this . After seeing his clothes and body seemingly get restored to ideal condition Goku wonders if he's dead , which Sugoro denies . Then Goku goes straight to asking him if Sanzu River flows around there because he probably figures he sure as hell can't be alive like this , to which Sugoro says it doesn't but this place might be even more perilous than Sanzu River. Now , this is not a confirmation of a shared nature with Sanzu River , but it's not a refusal either while only implying worse severity. The confirmation happens after this , when Sugoro says " The thing about Sanzu river is , if you're lucky , you might just come back to life. But once you've gone plunging into Sugoroku Space , it's not quite that simple " , establishing that it does infact share the nature as well and returning to life once you're stuck in Sugoroku Space is not quite as simple as it could be in Sanzu River.

Argument : " Coming back to life is just an idiom , it doesn't have a literal meaning "

Answer : This could work if Sanzu river wasn't in the discussion for a cosmological place with the character experiencing real confusion surrounding his state of life and death in it after seeing his body having gone through a change of state being seemingly restored to ideal condition, let alone used in the same sentence where Sugoro is talking about and comparing the possibility of coming back to life from sanzu river and this place . Sanzu river itself is not an idiom , it's a mythical place with concept of existing between life and death. This existence without obeying the binary opposition of life and death itself is another concept with qualitative transcendence over reality .

Conclusion : Nature of being between life and death is proved via statements , any attempts at claim the life statement idiom doesn't work due to including sanzu river in the same one.

Sugoroku Space has space ?

Argument : Sugoroku Space has space because the games take place so it's gotta have time hence not outer etc

Answer : Actions created for narrative presentation cannot be considered a debunk for explicitly stated scale . The fact that abstract entities controlling things at their will exist with this place means they can create anything that they want and still don't have to obey the laws of reality . This scan states that all actions are governed by the rules of Sugoroku so the caretakers can create anything to make the game happen which they infact did. It's shown Sugoroku Space on entry was just a blank screen, where game stages formed later for the game to take place which should be metaphysical space entirely since the place only obeys the rules of Sugoroku not space and time. Space was clearly not inherent and only created by the caretakers but even what was created by them clearly doesn't obey the laws of actual space and time which is also proven above from the lack of temporal consequence for Sugoro and his kid even if we only try to calculate the potential time spent during games.

Conclusion : Abstract superior entities being present simply debunk the idea of a resemblence of space confirming the existence of conventional space let alone when they're shown to have created it on screen. If the statements go against the idea , a narrative presentation does not prove real space or time , everything from all actions being simply governed by the rules of sugoroku , to lack of temporal consequence in the place , proves that even the created plane is not real space and time.

It was collapsing so Goku didn't collapse the dimensional walls

Argument : Just like the title but with these scans from Perfect Files , Chozenshuu , DB Official site , and a scene from the anime.

Answer : First i'm gonna address the extra material , notice how most of those say stuff like " Goku escapes and is saved by Kaioshin " , " they were saved by Goku and escaped to the kaioshin realm* . So what is this " save " or " escape " they're mentioning before being rescued by Kibito Kai if the place already collapsed by itself ? That brings me to the anime scene with " collapsing " being in present continuous , so what is the rate of this ongoing collapse ? What phase has it reached ? Answer to that is the destruction of its contents still being in progress and if anyone could add a scan of showing dimensional wall cracks to this i'd really appreciate it . Until then , only feat unclaimable stays destruction of Sugoroku Space contents not the boundary .

Argument : " Goku failed to use ki while playing the game so being able to use it now means Sugoroku Space boundary is already failing and damaged "

Answer : That's cool but Sugoro explains these as rules for Sugoroku itself rather than an independent effect of dimensional scale , so him being able to use ki after the game is called off by the caretakers who start destroying all of the contents of the dimension falls right in line with that rather than implying the dimensional boundary itself is already falling apart , the condition of not being allowed to use ki ended with the game

Argument : " Sugoro states he can use ki because the space is collapsing not the game being over so it proves the boundary is damaged ".

Answer : Game being over and space starting to collapse go hand in hand and ofc Sugoro himself doesn't know the cause for sure he says " could be " . Not that it'd translate to dimensional boundary damage even if it were due to Sugoroku Space collapsing cuz game stages themselves being destroyed still fits his statement and the boundary damage is simply not shown at all. The only way this argument could ever work would be if the boundary destruction had happened off screen but it's literally shown here so we know what actual damage to the boundary even looks like and it's not anything vague but a clear cut representation.

To top it all off, Old kai statement about Sugoroku Space is the clearly established effect of dimensional scale , and that effect breaks right after the actual damage to the boundary is shown by Goku's kamehameha .

There was also this Title screen of episode 31 being used to claim Goku wasn't involved in the collapse ? So title screens or narrator just emphasising the major events without mentioning all the relevant subjects is disproving their involvement? What's all this then Explicit detailed info of the episode > Headcanon interpretation of title screen .

Someone also saying Goku came out of wormhole ? It's literally the blast of his kamehameha which fades out after covering the entire Sugoroku Space not some " hole " and Goku literally does spawn in there after the blast energy has already dispersed still in the shooting stance . He was not shown flying before the screen fully got covered and he's proven to not have flown after he reaches an alternate dimension.

Conclusion : All of the supposed proofs of Goku not having performed the feat or his power not scaling to the feat are only proving he didn't destroy the contents of Sugoroku Space with his own power yet the boundary destruction is explicitly and exclusively shown done by him .

The scale and feat are pretty clear but some people try to make it look like it's being framed wrong by direct explicit showings using half info and headcanon to make a downplay narrative , but when one does a deep dive without being disingenuous the facts become clear again .

Finally got Volume 10 of DB Galaxy Touring, the restored English edition of the old Chinese Dragon Ball GT manga adaptation.

It’s such a strange and interesting Dragon Ball collectible, not exactly a standard official manga like the original Toriyama material, but still a really cool piece of GT history.

I’m mostly happy to finally have the final volume. The cover with SSJ4 Goku and Baby goes hard, and the interior pages have that classic GT weirdness.

Curious if anyone else here has collected these or read through them?

Mr. Satan is roughly the same age as Goku and Krillin, even though fans often assume he is older. Guides claim that he was supposedly strong from an early age and had established himself as a champion long before that through PR efforts and merchandise sales. Officially, there is little documentation of how he got to where he is. What do you think? Did he manipulate things, or was it his strength, or a combination of both?

iight i know for a FACT i’m alone in this but outside of the dbs in the middle of his torso i never notice a change in his transformation after acquiring them until today😭

What's your favorite Gamma and/or Android?

Put it down in the comments.