r/Plato

>Polemarchus: "Do you see how many we are?"
Socrates: "Of course."
Polemarchus: "Well, you must either prove stronger than all these, or you will have to stay here."
Socrates: "Isn't there another alternative—namely, that we persuade you to let us go?" Polemarchus: "But could you persuade us if we refuse to listen?"
Glaucon: "Certainly not."
Polemarchus: "Then you might as well make up your minds that we are not going to listen."

Socrates ranked Tyranny as the lowest in his ranking of regimes. But at the very beginning of the Republic, he didn't really wanted to talk to those people, but they forced him. But they got educated because they acted like tyrans, or not?

I suppose if I think for a bit longer I'll find an answer for me, and I will, but I also want to know other people's opinions.

In Plato's Phaedrus, Socrates famously says:

"I am a lover of learning, and trees and open country won't teach me anything, whereas men in the city do."

I recently heard an interesting modern rephrasing of this idea: "By staying in one place, you meet different people, but trees are the same everywhere you go." But it made me think: Are trees really the same? If we look at them not just as static green objects, but as living systems, each tree actually carries a unique "experience" and a lesson in adaptation:

The Tree on a Cliff: Exposed to violent winds, it develops deep, resilient roots and a twisted, flexible trunk. It teaches us about endurance and how to bend without breaking under pressure.

The Tree in a Dense Forest: Surrounded by its own kind, it has to grow straight and tall, competing for sunlight while sharing resources through the underground network. It teaches us about social synergy and community competition.

The Tree on a Tropical Beach: Adapting to high tides, sandy soil, and constant salty breezes. It teaches us about flexibility and thriving in changing, unstable environments.

Socrates believed only city dwellers could teach him things because they can speak and argue. But each tree is a living monument to a specific strategy of survival. They don't speak in words, but they teach us how to adapt to our own "climates" and life conditions.

What do you think? Did Socrates miss a massive philosophical layer by ignoring nature, or is human dialogue truly the only source of wisdom?

Any Books on How Greek Philosophy influenced Christian theology?

I find that Plato’s philosophy seems to point toward a model of reincarnation and eventual education/purification/theosis.

For instance, in Gorgias it is said that
no one willingly does wrong (since everyone does everything for the sake of the good 468b) and that the appropriate ‘punishment’ for ignorance is education (337d).

But he concludes the dialogue with a myth which includes permanent damnation…

This would seem to me to be merely a scare tactic for his interlocutors who are dangerous to the community and won’t be swayed by argument… except that Phaedo and Republic have similar myths! This makes it trickier.

There are myths that support the alternative position (like Phaedrus), but I am surprised that hell would come up at all in a dialogue like Phaedo where he’s talking with his friends.

Another reason eternal damnation should be impossible for Plato: everything eternal is good. There are no bad forms; badness is a kind of privation of being or a disharmony, but it does not have essential being itself.

It seems to me that eternal damnation is so obviously contrary to Plato’s metaphysics that he must have included it for two reasons:
A. to scare non-philosophers into being moral
B. to give his philosopher readers practice identifying and arguing against myths that are not true (as I am doing now). I think just as Plato censored Homer he is offering himself as practice for us— it is our responsibility to sort out what is true from what is not. He’s a philosopher not a dogmatist and he expects the same from his (serious) readers.

There is significant evidence to support this.

After Gorgias myth he says (527a) “You probably consider it a ludicrous old wive’s tale. There would indeed be nothing strange about despising it if we could somehow come across a better and truer account, but as it is you can see that you three—you, Polus, and Gorgias, the three cleverest people in Greece today—have failed to prove that any other way of life is preferable to the one I’ve been arguing for, which also turns out to be to our advantage in the next world too.”

And after the Phaedo myth (114d): “No sensible man would insist that these things are as I have described them, but I think it is fitting for a man to risk the belief—for the risk is a noble one—that this, or something like this, is true about our souls and their dwelling places, since the soul is evidently immortal…”

You might argue that Plato’s world is justly ordered and therefore bad people must be tormented for their crimes… but that contradicts my first argument as well as, for instance, Gorgias 335e: “we’ve found that it is never right to harm anyone.”

I think Socrates is being ironic, ‘torment’ just refers to the way that immoral people hate being proven wrong and how sunlight hurts the cavedwellers’ eyes. Just punishment does not confer harm but benefit.

It is the function of morality to benefit others, and the function of immorality to harm others. How then could we expect God, the principle of goodness itself, to cause eternal harm?

Again, “Anyone who pays a fair penalty for his crimes, then, is having good done to him, agreed?” (Gorgias 477a). How can this be said for those with no hope of escaping torture forever? It can’t.

What do you think about this?

chat, i recently came across some of marcus aurelius 's quotes, and they all are just too brilliant... i don't know much about him tho but as much i read about him, HE IS ONE THE TOP PHILOSOPHERS!!

can you recommend other philosophers with that same awareness and thoughts?

can anyone tell me what are his main thoughts on ppl?

his best hooks?

Would love your thoughts on this video!