Disclaimer: I am not Jewish, Israeli, Arab, Druze, Samaritan, Circassian, Christian, or Muslim. I support a two-state solution. I affirm and acknowledge the humanity of everyone. I do not support terrorist groups of any sort. I do not wish for any violence. This post is not meant to cause offense. These are thoughts from someone outside looking in on this conflict which does not have any of his people being affected.

1. The Core Dilemma: "Right of Return" vs. Demographic Survival

A primary demand of pro-Palestinian activists is "The Right Of Return," which states that the people displaced by the 1948 War and their descendants have the right to return to the places they fled or were expelled from.

• The Pro-Palestinian Argument: Grounded in UN Resolution 194 and Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, advocates argue that human rights and legal principles are universal and cannot be revoked based on demographic preferences.
• The Israeli / Zionist Perspective: Critics state that this will cause an Arab majority in the land where Jews would become a minority once again. Given two millennia of persecution following the Roman expulsion from Judea—when the territory was renamed Syria Palaestina after the failed Bar Kokhba Revolt (132–136 CE) to try and erase the Jewish connection to the land—Jews view a sovereign majority state as their only guarantee of safety.

2. A Brief Overview of How Jews Fared in the Diaspora

To understand why Jewish people never want to be a minority at the mercy of others again, one must look at the exhaustive history of persecution, pogroms, libels, and expulsions in both Europe and Muslim lands.

Persecution in Majority-Christian Europe

• 1096: Rhineland Massacres
• 1095–1291: The Crusades (launched several anti-Jewish massacres across Europe)
• 1290: Expulsion of Jews from England
• 1306: French Expulsions
• 1391: Spanish Massacre & Forced Conversions
• 1401: Schaffhausen Massacre
• 1420: Lyon Expulsion
• 1421: Vienna Edict (forced conversions, expulsions, and burning at the stake)
• 1492: Spanish Alhambra Decree (Mass Expulsion)
• 1493: Sicily Expulsions
• 1496: Portugal Expulsions
• 1506: Lisbon Massacre
• 1510: Brandenburg Expulsions
• 1510: Naples Expulsions
• 1516: Creation of the first mandatory Jewish Ghetto in Venice
• 1550: Genoa Expulsions
• 1555: Papal Bull (forced Jews into the Roman Ghetto, required identifying clothing, and banned Jews from trades)
• 1563: Polotsk Massacre
• 1639: Łęczyca False Libel
• 1648–1657: Khmelnytsky Pogroms
• 1683: Hungarian Massacres of Jewish Refugees
• 1715: Bavarian Deportations
• 1717: Gibraltar Deportations
• 1727 & 1742: Russian Pogroms & Expulsions
• 1744: Prussian Restriction of Jewish Residency
• 1761: Alsace Executions
• Late 18th Century: Establishment of the Pale of Settlement (restricting where Jews could live in the Russian Empire)
• 1894: The Dreyfus Affair
• Early 20th Century: Widespread Russian Pogroms
• 1935–1937: Polish anti-Jewish violence, including the 1935 Grodno Affair, the 1936 Przytyk Pogrom, and the 1937 Brześć nad Bugiem Pogroms
• 1939–1945: The Holocaust (Nazi genocide destroying two-thirds of European Jewry; Jewish populations still have not recovered their pre-Holocaust counts)
• 1946: Kielce Pogrom in Poland (Holocaust survivors murdered after returning home, driving many to flee to the British Mandate of Palestine)

Persecution and Dhimmi Status in Muslim Lands

Muslim lands subjected Jews and Christians to dhimmi status, where they were at the mercy of rulers and majority populations. Non-Muslims were required to pay a special tax (jizya) for protection and permission to observe their faith—functioning much like protection money paid to a mafia outfit. While Jewish societies did flourish during certain periods under the patronage of specific rulers, these protections were often broken, leading to massacres throughout successive Caliphates, the Ottoman Empire, North Africa, and Persia.

• 627: Banu Qaynuqa and Banu Nadir Expulsions; execution of the Banu Qurayza tribe
• 1033: Fez Pogrom (Morocco)
• 1066: Granada Massacre in Al-Andalus
• 1465: Fez Pogrom
• 1517: Hebron and Safed Attacks under Ottoman Rule
• 1535: Tunis Massacre and Enslavement
• 1656–1662: Persian Forced Conversions and Expulsions
• 1660: Safed and Tiberias Massacres
• 1679–1680: Yemen Mawza Expulsions, Sanaa Massacres, and Starvations
• 1706: Algiers Synagogue Destruction (due to blood libels/accusations of causing plague)
• 1721: Fez Synagogue Arson by Arab creditors
• 1747: Mashhad Massacre (Persia)
• 1756: Hebron and Safed Massacres
• 1776–1777: Basra Massacre
• 1785: Tripoli Pogrom
• 1805: Algiers Pogrom
• 1834: Safed Pogrom (Ottoman authorities did nothing to intervene)
• 1840: Damascus Blood Libel
• 1864: Marrakesh Massacre
• Late 1860s: Tunis and Djerba Attacks
• 1908: Jaffa Pogrom
• 1929: Hebron Massacre under British Mandate (families with roots stretching back to pre-Roman times were murdered or expelled while authorities stood by)
• 1936–1939: Arab Revolt in Palestine
• 1941: The Farhud Pogrom in Baghdad, Iraq
• 1945: Tripoli Pogrom
• 1947: Aleppo Pogrom
• 1955: Istanbul Pogrom

These pogroms occurred long before 1896 (when modern political Zionism took root), dispelling the notion that Jews and Muslims lived in unbroken harmony prior to 1948. Re-establishing the modern State of Israel provided a sanctuary—particularly for Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews fleeing expulsion across the Islamic world in the 1940s and 1950s, who now form the majority of Israel's population (where half the world's Jews reside).

3. The 1947 Partition Plan & Historical Counterarguments

When the UN presented the 1947 Partition Plan, Jewish leadership reluctantly accepted it because having a sovereign state was better than having none. The Arab leadership totally rejected the plan and launched a war.

Perspectives on the Arab Rejection

• The Theological View (Waqf): Rejection may partly stem from the Islamic concept of Waqf, which holds that once land becomes Islamic, it belongs to Islam forever, making non-Muslim sovereignty over it unacceptable.
• The Anti-Colonial / Nationalist Counterargument: Pro-Palestinian advocates argue the rejection was secular and nationalist: in 1947, indigenous Arabs formed two-thirds of the population and owned most of the land, viewing the allocation of over 50% of the territory to a minority group without indigenous consent as an unjust colonial imposition.

Refugee Status: UNRWA vs. UNHCR

• The Entitlement Question: Critics ask why Palestinian refugees are classified by UNRWA such that children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren living worldwide retain refugee status for decades despite never living in those homes.
• The Policy Context: Defenders of UNRWA note that UNHCR (the UN agency covering all other global refugees) also maintains inherited refugee status for descendants in unresolved, multi-generational displaced populations (e.g., Somali, Afghan, or Sahrawi refugees) to preserve family unity until a political settlement is reached.
• The Missing Population Exchange: Pro-Israeli voices emphasize that while ~700,000 Palestinians were displaced during the 1948 War, roughly 850,000 Jews were expelled from Arab nations at the same time. Israel absorbed its refugees, whereas many Arab nations refused to integrate Palestinian refugees.

4. Modern Escalations and Civilians in Conflict

The conflict has been further compounded by decades of war: the 1950s Suez Crisis, the 1967 Six-Day War, the War of Attrition, the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the First and Second Intifadas, Gaza's 2006 election of Hamas, constant rocket fire, the Gaza Wars of 2014 and 2021, and the ongoing war following October 7, 2023.

• Military Status vs. Civilians: While critics claim that mandatory conscription makes Israeli civilians valid targets, international law is clear: a civilian is anyone not currently serving in the military, regardless of past service. Displacement does not justify terrorism against civilians.
• Extremist Elements & Settlers: At the same time, peace is severely undermined by extremist elements within Israel who deny Palestinian humanity and force families from their homes in the West Bank / Judea & Samaria.

Conclusion

If all UNRWA-registered refugees moved to Israel, it would result in an immediate Arab majority, rendering Jews a minority in their only homeland once again—a risk Israel will never take given two millennia of history. Due to deep-seated bitterness and extremist factions on both sides, an unchecked demographic collapse would likely trigger immediate civil war.

An ideal world requires a sovereign Palestinian state alongside a sovereign Israel. How can this conflict be resolved when one side views the Right of Return as an unalienable human right, while the other views it as demographic destruction? What are your takes on this?

I've put together a quiz that compares your views with political parties and groups in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. I'd be interested to see what people here get, and whether the results make sense to you.

Quiz: https://israelpalestinepartiesquiz.blogspot.com/

It's 42 questions, with your top 10 matches shown as percentages. There are 22 groups, including Likud, Yesh Atid, The Democrats, Otzma Yehudit, Ra'am, Hadash, Balad, Fatah, Hamas, and the PFLP.

My main reason for making it was to get a better sense of the differences between these groups beyond the usual "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestine" labels. Those labels tell you very little about what someone thinks a government should actually do, or what they'd want everyday life under that government to look like.

The questions cover things like Israel's Jewish national identity, Palestinian statehood, settlements, refugee return, religion in government, women's rights, gay rights, political freedom, and the economy. For example, supporting Israel's continued existence and supporting its Jewish-majority character are separate questions. So are supporting a Palestinian state and supporting an unlimited right for Palestinian refugees and their descendants to move to Israel.

Some issues count more than others. I don't think someone should get a high match with a group they fundamentally disagree with about democracy or national identity just because they happen to agree on healthcare and taxes. The results show where those major disagreements are, and you can open each group's profile to see how its positions were assigned.

There's also a political compass showing economics on one axis and freedom versus coercive control on the other. That takes account of things like political repression and attacks on civilians, along with personal freedoms. A group's stated ideals aren't always a good description of how it behaves. The compass only covers part of what the quiz asks, so your closest dot won't necessarily be your highest overall match.

I'm aiming for something people will actually enjoy taking. Think political infotainment with sources you can check. Some positions are estimates, and some groups have much less information available than others. I've tried to make those gaps visible. I don't think every percentage deserves to be taken literally, but the differences should be broadly recognizable.

There's no sign-up, and the quiz doesn't send your answers to me.

If you try it, post your top few matches. Were they what you expected? If a result seems wrong, I'd especially appreciate knowing which question or assigned party position you think is causing it. A source for a correction would be helpful too.

I cannot express how appreciative I am for this group existing. I felt like I was a unicorn. I am beyond progressive, and my politics are way left. But for some reason this has all become a black and white issue with no shades of gray.

Last night I just cried after seeing all of the horrible anti-Semitism in a couple of groups which I have enjoyed because I share common interests with otherwise. I just feel so betrayed because to my progressive friends, if I'm at all conflicted, then clearly I'm a terrible person. And if I voice any argument in support of the Israeli right to exist, I am labeled and shunned and at least on reddit, just completely banned from various subs. I even got a warning from Reddit for hate speech because I snarkily argued with a person who declared that the Jews are committing a holocaust. I was the one who got a good morning for hate speech and my comment taken down.

I am devastated and sad and exhausted. And I'm somewhere in the middle of all of this. I just cannot justify people telling my many Israeli friends that their very existence is evil because of where they were born and who they are. My Israeli friends, most of whom have served in the IDF, are brilliant, compassionate, loving and introspective people. To diminish them to nothing simply because of where they were born and the religion they practice makes me physically ill, not to mention terrified that condemnation of them is accepted with complete impunity.

But I am so glad that this space exists so that I know I'm not alone in my complete confusion and befuddlement. Thank you for being here. You are very important.

Follow up to u/oliver-coffee's insightful breakdown.

And by 'clarifying' - I'm not talking about me, some goober on reddit, clarifying anything. Rather, one of the world's foremost experts, Alice Nderitu:

https://preview.redd.it/0jez2otbnvth1.png?width=468&format=png&auto=webp&s=aa1956cc2945fb2d935a01fe35e06b9c9eadcf05

Recognize that face? You’ll be forgiven if not. Corporate media has suppressed her story nearly completely. She’s one of the leading experts in the world on genocide. When Oct 7 happened, she was the UN's Special Adviser on Genocide Prevention (aka the UN’s top genocide expert). Look her up in NYT, BBC etc - you’ll see plenty of articles declaring her expertise… (before Oct 7 only, though). Throughout her career, she’s been committed to atrocity prevention and ensuring the term "genocide" retains its legal clarity, moral power, and gravity. As the war in Gaza escalated, “powerful voices attempted to transform [her warnings about the conduct of the IDF] into official declarations of genocide.” In her words: 

“[there was a strong] push that I should say that there’s a genocide going on in Gaza. I was hounded, day in, day out. Bullied, hounded, with protection from nobody. This was a war. Palestinians were killing Israelis, Israelis were killing Palestinians. It needs to be treated like other wars. In other wars, we don’t run and take one side and then keep going on and on about that one side… By taking one side, condemning it every day, you completely lose the essence of what the U.N. was created for.”

Despite daily pressure from UN colleagues to publicly declare Israel’s military campaign a genocide, she refused to bow to the political pressure and do so. This stance was not taken out of condonation for the IDF actions, but rather out of a conviction that the war was not genocide “by any definition”.

What did she mean by “by any definition”? Her office has put out some breakdowns:

The assertion that Israel’s military campaign in Gaza constituted a genocide collapses when evaluated systematically against actual, historically verified genocides. Below is a structured comparative analysis across 6 core criteria used by historians and legal scholars to define genocide

Component 1: Death Toll | Demographic Net Change & Total Number Killed

A defining hallmark of genocide is meaningful demographic destruction.

1. Holocaust: -63% net change. ~6 million killed out of 9.5 million Jews. Still fewer Jews on earth today than in 1938.
2. Rwandan Genocide (1994): -76% (Pre-Event Population of 1M tutsis reduced to 260,000 in 100 days).
3. Cambodian Genocide (1975–1979): -25% (~1.5–2 million executed/starved).
4. Armenian Genocide: ~1.75 million → ~650k (−26%).
5. 2023+ Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (Focus: Genocide of Palestinians): 0% to +2% net change. 60,000+ killed. High birth rates offset casualties, maintaining a flat-to-positive demographic curve.

Component 2: Specific Intent (Dolus Specialis) to Destroy Civilians

Under the 1948 Genocide Convention, there must be proven explicit intent to destroy a protected group. Historical comparison:

1. The Holocaust

• The Intent: Nazi stated intention was the total, systematic physical extermination of every Jewish person in Europe.
• How Intent Was Executed: Concentration camps, ghettoes, death squads (Einsatzgruppen).

2. Rwandan Genocide

• The Intent: Hutu extremists (Interahamwe and government forces) sought the complete eradication of the Tutsi population.
• How Intent Was Executed: Radio propaganda (RTLM) broadcast names and locations of Tutsis. Machetes and firearms were distributed nationally.

3. Cambodian Genocide

• The Intent: Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge intended to forcibly dismantle modern society and create an agrarian communist utopia by eliminating "corrupting" elements.
• How Intent Was Executed: "Killing Fields," forced labor, targeting of minorities & Intellectuals.

4. Armenian Genocide

• The Intent: The Young Turks pursued an official policy to rid the empire of its Christian subjects.
• How Intent Was Executed: "Killing Fields," forced labor, targeting of minorities & Intellectuals.

5. Gaza (2023–Present)

• The Intent: IDF objectives are defined as destroying the military infrastructure of Hamas, eliminating its leadership, and recovering hostages following the October 7th attacks.
• Operational Conduct vs. Historical Intent:
  • Unlike historical genocides, the IDF utilizes warning mechanisms (SMS, phone calls, roof-knocks, map-grid evacuations) to warn & remove civilians from target zones before strikes.
  • Israel facilitates ongoing humanitarian operations, including coordinating mass polio vaccinations for over 500,000 Gazan children and permitting aid corridors inside an active warzone.
  • The primary military target is an embedded insurgent force operating within dense civilian infrastructure, not the physical eradication of the Palestinian population as an ethnic group.
• Note: The intent of the IDF, to reduce civilian casualties as much as possible, is inverted two-fold by Hamas. First, they obviously intend to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. Second, by embedding rocket launchers, armories, and command posts directly inside and beneath schools, mosques, residential towers, and hospitals (such as Al-Shifa), Hamas ensured that any Israeli attempt to destroy military targets would guarantee high-value civilian collateral damage. Again, their goal in this strategy is to kill civilians - Gazan civilians. This behavior is unlike any true genocide.

Component 3: Ability of Victim Group's Leadership to End the Conflict

In a true genocide, the targeted group is powerless to stop their own extermination—the perpetrator's intent is total destruction regardless of victim behavior.

European Jews could not end Nazi extermination by negotiating a ceasefire. Armenian civilians could not stop deportations by releasing hostages. Gaza differs because Hamas is an armed organization whose decisions about hostages, disarming, and negotiations affect the conflict.

On Oct 7, Hamas initiated the war, which some mainstream media and political powers like the UN are trying to twist into a genocide. If they succeed, it will be the only genocide where the victims's initiated it.

Component 4: How did the victim group respond when violence ended?

The psychological and behavioral baseline of victims in a genocide is survival and profound trauma, not military celebration. The survivor response is universal: profound mourning, trauma, displacement, search for missing, demand for recognition. 

After the conflict in Gaza, the population celebrated their "victory" in the streets. Hamas leadership called Oct 7 and the entire war a divine success, promised to repeat it, and then began executing rival Gazans. That is not survivor leadership behavior. That is combatant leadership behavior.

Anyway, Alice stood up for the truth, and the political repercussions were expected. It's the UN, after all:

https://preview.redd.it/j1g9xsewnvth1.png?width=970&format=png&auto=webp&s=e8495e716af0e43dc193388bcf221eaf7c08cd1d

LMK if you guys know all this. Here's their info in a table:

https://preview.redd.it/56lmrtdazvth1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=a07beeb9dc6e5afb80ea4f7e00ff376014c587da