r/Qigong_Neigong

▲ 11 r/Qigong_Neigong+1 crossposts

The complete path of internal alchemy in one overview, from foundation to emptiness

Just sharing a summary chapter from my book as I think it could be very helpful for beginners to have the full path laid out without modern lineage influence or personal claims getting in the way. It's what the classics say.

The chapters before this one walked the path stage by stage, with their sources, their cautions and their detail. This chapter does something simpler and, for a beginner, more useful. It sets the whole process down in one place, plainly, so that the shape of it can be held in the mind at once. The literature is heavy with names, and a newcomer can read for a long time without ever seeing the simple spine that all the names hang on. Here is that spine.

Stripped to its bones, the path is one movement repeated four times: something is gathered, refined, and handed up to a higher centre of the body, growing purer and more yang at every step, until nothing coarse is left and what remains is returned to its source. The centre of the work rises through the body as it goes, from the lower belly and remaining here for a while, to the chest, to the head, and finally beyond the body altogether. What is being refined changes its name at each stage, and that is the source of most of the confusion, but the thing itself is a single current being carried home. Read the four stages below with that one picture in mind and the names will fall into place.

A word first on the spans of time the texts attach to each stage, the hundred days, the ten months, the three years, the nine years. None of these is a literal count. Each is an old indicative figure for how long that labour tends to take and what its character is, and the texts themselves say as much. Treat them as descriptions of weight, not of calendar.

Stage One: building the foundation

The first stage is called building the foundation, zhuji 築基, and often the hundred days of building the foundation, bai ri zhu ji 百日築基. No medicine is gathered yet in the strict alchemical sense, and no formal alchemical conversion has begun. This stage repairs the vessel so that the real work can begin, because an ordinary adult body has leaked and scattered too much of its vitality to refine anything at all. The aim is to restore the body to fullness: essence full, qi abundant, spirit bright, what the tradition names jing zu qi man shen wang 精足氣滿神旺.

Where it happens is the whole body, with the lower dantian, the field below the navel, gradually built up and filled as the reservoir everything later will draw on. How it is done is the broadest of any stage: many different methods, standing and sitting, moving and still, all aimed at restoring vitality and conserving what is normally lost. This is where conditioning the body, the regulation of posture, breath and mind, and the first turning of the small orbit belong. The yin and yang work here is recovery rather than transformation: the constant downward and outward leakage of the ordinary body is reversed, and what was being lost is kept and gathered. The stage is complete when the body is full again and the foundation is firm enough to bear what follows, the yang stirring of its own accord as the sign that it is ready.

Stage Two: refining essence into qi

The second stage, refining essence into qi, lianjing huaqi 煉精化氣, is where the alchemy proper begins and where the first medicine is made. The restored essence of the foundation is refined into qi and gathered into a tangible point. The first product is the lesser medicine, xiao yao 小藥, also called the small medicine, caught at the moment the tradition calls the living midnight, huo zi shi 活子時. As the work continues this is matured into the greater medicine, da yao 大藥. Both the lesser and the greater medicine form and are gathered in the lower dantian, which now serves as the furnace of the work.

Where it happens, then, is the lower dantian and the pathways of the orbits. How it is done shifts in character from the first stage: as the classics describe it, there are far fewer moving forms, and the emphasis falls on filling and refining the dantian and on circulating qi through the orbits, driven mostly by the pressure built in the dantian itself rather than by outward movement. This is the home of fire timing, of the extraction the texts call taking from water to fill fire, qu kan tian li 取坎填離, and of the gathering of the medicine. The yin falling away begins here in earnest: the true yang hidden inside water, inside the kidneys and the essence, is drawn out and used to restore the yang that the ordinary fire of the heart has lost, the broken halves moving back toward wholeness. The stage closes with recognised signs, the three appearances of the yang light, yang guang san xian 陽光三現, and the trembling of the six senses, after which the fire is stopped and the great medicine is complete.

Stage Three: refining qi into spirit

The third stage, refining qi into spirit, lianqi huashen 煉氣化神, takes the greater medicine and raises it to a higher seat, where it is joined with the original spirit to form an embryo. This is the stage of the holy embryo, sheng tai 聖胎, also called the spirit embryo: the union of the great medicine and the original spirit, conceived and then nurtured to fullness over the indicative span called the ten months, shi yue 十月.

Where it happens is the middle dantian, the chamber in the chest the texts name the yellow court, huang ting 黃庭, or the crimson palace, jiang gong 絳宮. The great medicine is carried up from the lower field to this middle one, where the embryo forms and is nurtured; the lower dantian remains below as the furnace, and qi suffuses the space between the two fields during the nurturing. How it is done is mostly sitting meditation, with the attention resting on the middle and lower dantian, through quiet practices of warm nurturing and embryonic breathing rather than any vigorous method; deliberate effort gives way here to a more passive tending. The yin continues to fall away: the embryo is refined toward pure yang, and the yin part of the soul, the yin po 陰魄, is steadily transformed. The stage completes when the ten months are full, the embryo round and whole, and the yin exhausted enough that a yang spirit can appear.

Stage Four: refining spirit into emptiness

The fourth and final stage, refining spirit into emptiness, lianshen huanxu 煉神還虛, brings the matured spirit to the summit of the body, lets it emerge, rears it, and then returns it to the emptiness from which everything came. The product here is the yang spirit, yang shen 陽神: the completed spirit, which is raised to the head, brought forth from the crown as what the texts call a body outside the body, and reared over the indicative three years until it is stable. After this the spirit is returned to emptiness across the long stillness named the nine years of facing the wall, and the path culminates in the merging with the Dao described in the previous chapter.

Where it happens is the upper dantian, the niwan 泥丸, deep in the head, and at the last beyond the body altogether. This is where the three flowers gather at the crown and the five qi return to the origin. How it is done is sitting, with the attention raised to the upper dantian, in the purest non-doing of the whole path, the deep stillness the old texts call sitting in forgetfulness. Here the last of the yin falls away. With the yin of the heart and spirit finally stripped, the practitioner becomes pure yang, chun yang 純陽, yin wholly flaked away and yang wholly whole, which is exactly what the gathering of the three flowers at the crown signifies: the pure yang drawn out of essence, qi and spirit, assembled at the summit with nothing impure left below.

The thread that runs through all of it

Three things run unbroken through the four stages, and holding them is worth more than memorising any list of names.

The first is that the centre of the work rises through the body. It is built in the lower dantian, the medicine is made in the lower dantian, the embryo is formed in the middle dantian, the spirit is matured in the upper dantian, and at the end it passes beyond the body. The seat of the work climbs from belly to chest to head to emptiness, and each stage hands its finished product up to the next height.

The second is that something is produced and renamed at each step, and the renaming is not the tradition being obscure for its own sake but the same current taking a new form as it is refined. In order: the foundation is restored, then the lesser medicine and the greater medicine are gathered in the lower belly, then the holy embryo is formed in the chest, then the yang spirit is brought forth from the head. Foundation, medicine, embryo, spirit: four names for four states of one refining thing.

The third is that yin falls away at every stage until only yang remains. This is the engine beneath the whole process. The ordinary person is a mixture of yang and the acquired yin that has crept in since birth, and the entire path is the patient separating out and discarding of that yin and the recovery of the original yang. Essence is refined and its yin let go, then qi, then spirit, each conversion shedding a yin part and raising a pure yang part, until at the end the practitioner is wholly yang. The classical image for this is precise: each of the three treasures has a yin and a yang aspect, and the three conversions strip away the yin of water, then of metal, then of fire, raising the three pure yang that gather as the three flowers at the crown. The path begins with a body that has been leaking its yang and ends with one that has become nothing but yang, returned to the source.

Everything else in the literature, every furnace and firing time and trigram and alias, is detail hung on these three simple facts. A beginner who keeps them in view can read the densest of the old texts without losing the thread.

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 6 hours ago

Vegetarianism and Neigong

What are people’s thoughts/experiences regarding progressing with neigong without eating meat? I notice a fair number of teachers say you can’t really progress with neigong without eating some meat at least.

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What the classics say the medicine feels like when it forms

There are two events the neidan texts describe, the forming of the small medicine and the forming of the great medicine and the physical descriptions are surprisingly specific.

The small medicine is the quieter of the two. The sources describe warmth gathering in the dantian, light behind the closed eyelids, the whole body becoming soft and tingling, wind heard behind the ears , and white light appearing in the empty chamber. These come on gradually during the foundation and small orbit work.

The great medicine is a different thing entirely. Wu Shouyang's Xianfo hezong gives the classical list under the heading of the six roots shaking:

the dantian blazing with fire
both kidneys boiling like soup
eyes emitting golden light
wind rising behind the ears
eagle crying behind the brain
body surging, nose twitching

Zhang Sanfeng's describes it as a thunderclap shaking heaven. Shao Kangjie: Suddenly at midnight a clap of thunder, and ten thousand gates open one after another. Zhong Liquan: The accomplished one gathers the precelestial qi, and one night the thunder does not stop.

The Wuzhen pian uses the character for lightning directly: the lightning of Kan roasts and thunders in the place of metal and water.

A practitioner account from Zhao Bichen's lineage describes the experience as: the whole body like ants crawling, then suddenly the dantian heats up and the whole body goes tingling and numb.

What stands out to me is how physical and violent the great medicine descriptions are. Thunder, lightning, boiling, fire, the whole body surging. These are not gentle meditative experiences. The term su ma, tingling and numbing is the closest the classical vocabulary comes to what a modern person would probably describe as a strong electric current.

The small medicine is warm, quiet, gradual. The great medicine is sudden, forceful, and unmistakable.

Did anyone experience these crazy sensations at the end of stage 2 of neidan / internal alchemy?

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 2 days ago

The Complete Path of Internal Alchemy According to the Classics - One of the best books on Neigong and Neidan.

For anyone interested in Neigong, Neidan, or Daoist internal alchemy, my new book lays out the complete path according to the classical sources, without filtering it through personal lineage claims, modern invention, or school politics. It follows the path from building the foundation, through refining essence into qi, refining qi into spirit, and returning spirit to emptiness, giving the theory, methods, warnings, mistakes, and markers at each stage.

Throughout the book, the key points are supported with quoted passages from the Chinese classics, with translations and explanations, so the reader can see where the teachings come from rather than simply being asked to believe them. My aim was simple: to put the full classical path in one place, clearly, practically, and honestly.

I speak Chinese, lived in China for almost a decade, am an indoor student of Yuanmen Pai, and hold a five-year degree in Chinese Medicine from Shanghai.

Available on Amazon Kindle and paperback in all regions. Here is the US Kindle/paperback link for ease: https://a.co/d/08WpXOEp

PS. I wrote the book I wish I had when I first started nearly twenty years ago. The whole path is laid out in sequence, with the theory, methods, warnings, and markers given from the classics. No claims of personal attainment, no lineage politics, and no demand that the reader believe me. The first twenty-five chapters stay close to the sources. My own experience and opinion are kept separate at the end, in a short three-chapter section.

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 2 days ago

List of Electric Qi Practitioners/Doctors

Is there a list of practitioners worldwide that run seminars/treatment sessions where they use electric qi?

There's Zhou in China, Jiang in Malaysia, Luo in Thailand, but perhaps putting together a directory will help a lot of people interested in experiencing/learning this specific form of neigong.

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u/Current-Regret-5831 — 4 days ago
▲ 8 r/Qigong_Neigong+1 crossposts

The small orbit turning is the halfway mark, not the finish line

There is a passage attributed to Zhang Sanfeng that I think more people should know about:

神炁相守,息息相依,河車之路通矣。功夫到此,築基之效,已得一半矣。

Spirit and qi guard one another; breath by breath they depend on one another, and the path of the River Chariot opens. When the work has reached this point, the effect of laying the foundation is only half attained.

The turning of the orbit, the thing many schools present as the goal of the foundation, is described here as the halfway mark. Everything before it is one half. Everything after it, the further filling, stabilising, and consolidating, is the other.

The Taiyi jinhua zongzhi says something similar about the famous hundred days:

百日立基,非百日也。

To establish the foundation in a hundred days is not a matter of a literal hundred days.

None of this is obscure. It is in the texts. It just does not get quoted very often because it is not what people want to hear.

Were you told this when you started, does it even matter?

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 3 days ago

How Do You Practice In The Heat?

With heatwaves striking many places around the world right now, how is everyone managing their practice around it? Lots of people like to practice outdoors on grass in the summer but are you still doing that this year?

Personally I have been doing it indoors with air conditioning (not directly blowing on me), especially when doing neigong as it tends to heat up my body and make me sweat under 20 degrees celcius already.

What about you guys?

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u/thecyberpunkmonk — 7 days ago

The true and false Dantian

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding the concepts of the true dantian and the false dantian.

What is the actual difference between the two, both in theory and in practice? Are they simply different methods of training, or are they referring to entirely different energetic structures or developmental stages?

Does one have any advantages over the other in terms of internal development, martial application, health, or longevity? Can someone who trains using a "false dantian" eventually reach the same level as someone training the "true dantian," or are the outcomes fundamentally different?

I'd also be interested in hearing which Nei Gong schools or lineages are generally considered to teach , purely so people can compare methods and philosophies—not to criticize any particular school.

Thanks!

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u/Own_Appointment_8529 — 11 days ago
▲ 15 r/Qigong_Neigong+1 crossposts

How Much Lying Should a Qigong Teacher Be Allowed To Get Away With?

When do we start holding Qigong, Neigong, and/or meditation teachers accountable?

When do we start name-dropping people who lie, cheat, omit information, or make up systems to make money?

I have come across so many so-called "Chinese masters" who are lovely and kind while you are paying them, but catch them doing something dodgy, question them, and the rage comes out.

I know people teaching in the Neigong and Chigong community now who were my students for years, yet they simply leave that out because the truth doesn't fit their specially made-up background.

What about the ones who claim extensive time in China learning from named teachers, yet they can't even pronounce basic Chinese words correctly? Should this not be called out?

Making up credentials, making up systems, lying about the origin of their methods. I mean, I see people claiming Chinese masters taught them methods that I personally taught them, and I know for a fact they never learned a single thing directly from this particular Chinese teacher.

They can delete comments. They can block you from their socials. Other forums protect them because they don't want arguments. How does this help sincere seekers?

What about the ones who visit Chinese teachers for a couple of days and then, the following week, post fake Faqi videos? Do we call them out? The ones who make up stories and tell biased versions of events that omit their own wrongdoing? Should we not call them out?

People who travel to Wudang for 3–6 months, do a short Taiji course, film tons of videos, hit social media hard, then come back and start teaching a supposed complete system of Qigong or Neigong. Why do we let people get away with this? It hurts people wanting to learn more than you realize.

This is how we let misguided people get away with doing bad things. Accountability must matter.

You only have so much time to devote to internal development. Having years wasted by someone purposely lying, or by someone who is teaching what they were taught without realizing they were being scammed, hurts everyone. It wastes valuable time and money.

I say "us" because I have run into so many known teachers who are pulling stunts, sleight of hand, elaborate setups with machines and wiring that you cannot easily spot. I have also met plenty of teachers who I know are lying about much of what they are saying, just to seem special or to have something unique to offer.

This is how I feel about it. How do you guys feel?

Btw, I am a teacher too. Hold me accountable in the same way.

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 12 days ago

Top Down or Bottom Up - Which Method or Way Is Better?

Researching this topic, I came across some information I was not expecting. Firstly, I expected to find that most famous top-down Neidan masters had started training as children. This wasn't really the case, with Wang Liping being the exception.

The famous Neidan teachers that came up repeatedly during my research were Wang Liping, Liu Huayang, Wang Chongyang, Zhang Boduan and Liu Yiming. Of these, only two were distinctly associated with a top-down approach - Wang Liping and Liu Huayang.

I also looked at modern meditation teachers such as S. N. Goenka and Sayagyi U Ba Khin because their methods also emphasise a top-down progression through the body, even though they come from the Buddhist Vipassana tradition rather than Daoist Neidan.

What was also interesting to find was that none of them were famous for being able to demonstrate any sort of supernatural or healing ability. Instead, they became famous for writing influential works, being promoted by the government, establishing or preserving lineages, or founding well-known and influential schools. Quite mundane and relatively neutral reasons. None of the supernatural abilities you might expect from a famous Neidan, Neigong, or Qigong master.

As a side note, this was also common for famous doctors in China. They became famous for publishing books and papers, not necessarily for being capable doctors.

Now, onto the top-down approach.

In TCM, it's an accepted fact that the Du meridian (Governing Vessel) flows upwards and the Ren meridian (Conception Vessel) also flows upwards. The MCO (Microcosmic Orbit) does not exist in adults. It exists in children, but when puberty hits, the Ren meridian reverses its flow from top-down to bottom-up.

Well-known books all describe the origin, direction and flow in exactly the same way. This isn't my opinion.

  • Giovanni Maciocia – The Treatment of the Du, Ren and Chong Mai
  • A Manual of Acupuncture (Peter Deadman, Mazin Al-Khafaji & Kevin Baker)
  • Huangdi Neijing (Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic)

This sends a lot of energy into the brain and that may be the reason for it, to aid the development of mental faculties. For internal training, however, this is a bit of an issue.

A really important downward pathway for energy does not exist for the countless numbers of people who expect it does. This results in many people running into problems with meditative practices that start at the top.

Energy follows intention. Over time, the amount of energy flowing upwards becomes more than the downward flow is able to handle and problems occur. This isn't even considering a person's starting health or whether blockages are present that might further reduce downward flow. In my experience of working with thousands of people over the past 15 years, the Middle Jiao is blocked in a great many individuals.

How many threads do we see from people struggling immensely with deviations from practice, such as Kundalini syndrome, mental health issues, headaches or sleep problems? They were all doing Shen work, meditating somewhere in the head or pulling energy into the brain itself, just as various systems teach.

In contrast, starting from the bottom up requires you to know how to effectively establish both the Lower Dantian and the MCO, two things which then help to act as an overflow valve and storage area for excess energy, making the process much safer. Excess energy in the brain is diverted downwards and stored safely in the Lower Dantian where it cannot cause harm.

This sadly does not account for a person's starting health and any blockages, which can stop the process from happening and result in years being wasted. That aside, the number of issues that can develop is significantly lower and any blockages usually show up as breathing difficulties or palpitations, which stop the practitioner from practising but do not result in the mental health issues that are commonly reported with the top-down approach.

In conclusion, there is no definitive answer as to which method is more effective, but there certainly is an argument as to which method is safer.

In today's day and age, with the sheer number of blockages and health issues that people already have in their late teens and early twenties, the bottom-up approach is the safest and is also the more commonly taught approach.

What do you think and what is your preference?

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 11 days ago

looking for neidan help!

whats up everybody. i want to learn about your school's phases of cultivation in neidan. like what do you do first to make the dantian, and fill it to make the elixir. what is your method?

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u/FrostyTry308 — 11 days ago

How Did You Start On This Journey?

For me it all started when I visited my wife's family. We were heading to the countryside to stay with her grandparents and there would be no wifi so I had to find a book to keep entertained. My father in law was cleaning his office and put two books on the kitchen table, The Magus of Java and Opening The Dragon Gate. If you don't know already, the first is about Master John Chang of Mo Pai and the second is Master Wang Liping of Longmen Pai.

I brought The Magus of Java with me and was completely mindblown by what I read. All these stories of qi cultivation and his healing abilities sounded so unbelievable to me so I set off to find out if it was all real, which led me to my current teachers.

What about you guys?

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u/thecyberpunkmonk — 9 days ago

Does Lineage Matter At All Or Is It A Complete Waste Of Time?

In Chinese martial arts traditions, lineage is considered a very important aspect in a teacher. You would normally check the credentials of your potential teacher, which school do they teach from, who are their teachers? Who are their teacher's teachers?

More importantly they have to be able to prove what they are teaching, show the direct line from them to the source of their teachings. For example in Wing Chun, if you claim to be teaching from Ip Man, you have to show that you learned from one of his disciples and then their disciples, for example Sifu Wong Shun Leung, and Sifu Gary Lam under him.

In qigong, neigong and neidan this is equally as important. If a teacher is claiming to teach practices belonging to a specific lineage, they have to be able to prove that they learned it from a lineage holder, and have permission to teach it themselves.

In my opinion, this is a very important thing to look out for when looking for a teacher. Can they prove they are who they say they are? Do they personally know the teacher that they claim to have learned from, and can that teacher verify their claim?

What are your thoughts on this? Is lineage still important today or is it a relic of the past?

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u/thecyberpunkmonk — 10 days ago

What Does Your Current Practice Look Like?

What are you currently practicing?

• Qigong?

• Neigong?

• Meditation?

• Martial Arts?

• Internal Alchemy?

How often do you train and what does a typical session look like?

Feel free to share your routine and experiences.

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 13 days ago

ASD in TCM

I'm wondering how Autism is understood through the perspective of TCM and Daoist cultivation.

A student of Wuliupai described it as the disharmony of the Shen and Xin, whatever that means. From what I've seen online, the predominant view is that it's an issue of the yuan/prenatal jing, or a more classical idea of the "five delays" - which likely means that there's not a great deal that can be helped.

I'm curious if I have a shot of addressing this through this path? Maybe diet is the biggest factor, or acupuncture and herbs, maybe it's slowly improving function over time through Neigong practice, maybe the ultimate answer is "it depends on you, and your patterns" - I guess ultimately I'm looking for some encouragement that maybe if I eat flavorless food for the rest of my life I can improve my mental faculties a bit.

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u/Background-Donkey-59 — 11 days ago

Introduce Yourself

Introduce Yourself

Welcome to r/Qigong_Neigong.

Whether you're completely new to internal training or have been practicing for decades, feel free to introduce yourself.

A few things you might like to share:

  • Where are you from?
  • What brought you to Qigong, Neigong, Meditation, or Internal Alchemy?
  • How long have you been practicing?
  • Do you currently follow a particular teacher, lineage, or system?
  • What are your goals for practice?

There is no right or wrong answer. Some members may be complete beginners, while others may have many years of experience.

Feel free to share as much or as little as you'd like.

Welcome to the community.

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 13 days ago

Ask Any Qigong, Neigong or Meditation Question

Whether you're completely new to internal training or have decades of experience, feel free to ask questions here.

Also feel free to answer any question you can help with.

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u/Rudolf_3090 — 13 days ago