r/TADCep9discussion

One of the most frequently discussed things things in the finale of TADC is the scene where Gangle cries for Jax's abstraction. Many fans have criticized it, saying "why she should cry for her abuser" or "the story is trying to forgive Jax!". But no, this is the right decision IMO.

I had a toxic friend like Jax in middle school who pushed several me once and also told me to go end my life. Later, he would attempt to take his life. I immediately hoped he could recover, and later we got along much better. I had another complicated relationship with another kid who DID take their life, and while I didn't cry when hearing the news, I DID cry a week later when I saw a photo of him to honor him at an event I was at.

Jax was an abuser, but not some demon/monster. He was someone with Gangle since her first day in the circus. Someone who, despite how toxic he was, did consider her a friend and vice versia as confirmed by Goose (Gangle put a question mark to him being her friend in the Favorite Character awards). He was one of the very few people she knew and was with her every day of her life.

It makes sense initially she couldn't cry for him. Jax was the 2nd abstraction she witnessed after Kaufmo but unlike him, he was mean to her. Her questioning why she can't shows its not even intentional, its just because of how he treated her. But when she witnesses the cast putting him in the tent, that's when it really hit her. Its the equivalent of closing the casket at a funeral and realizing you'll never see that person's face again.

Gangle, along with defending him moments earlier, was smiling at Jax in episode 8 when Zooble accepted him as one of the group. She might've been scared of him but she still cared and never wished abstraction on him. For all his faults, he had some positive moments towards her and the other's (like keeping his word of distracting Caine for them). She certainly would've preferred if he changed rather than this. Having her be happy or even feeling no sadness at all would've been OOC, even Zooble was upset about his abstraction despite being confirmed to hate him the most.

If Kaufmo had abstracted soon after Ribbit, I'd agree that Jax deserves the blame and we should hold him responsible since he pushed Kaufmo away and dismissed him. But since he didn't, I don't get the idea Jax is the one who drove him to abstraction as he had other friends than Jax and Ribbit. It was despair at realizing he'd forever be trapped there and thanks to Caine's fake exit that he likely conjured. Not to mention, we literally know the other's didn't laugh at his jokes either, they're not as guilty as Jax but that almost certainly played a part. IMO the guilt goes Caine > Jax > rest of the circus members than just Jax.

When this first dropped the day after episode 8, everyone was clowning Jax for "trying so hard to be different" and simply assumed "episode 9 will deal with him finally confronting his guilt and opening up". Man is this brutal in hindsight

Firstly, now we're hating Jax for what happened with his mom too? I guess abuser's are only sympathetic as long they harm Jax (his mom and Caine), because his mom spent an unspecified time amount of time emotionally abusing him and he didn't push her with intent to harm, he just wanted to get space. He clearly regretted it (and even said he wasn't sure if she was pretending to be hurt so he'd feel bad).

Not to mention, objectively JAX never pushed her, Leroy did. If we're judging Jax the same as Leroy, then I guess we have to say he redeemed himself because Leory turned his life around.

Secondly, its crazy how people just try simplify what happened with Ribbit and Kaufmo. Jax did cause Ribbit's abstraction but it wasn't his intent, we literally see him trying to knock on the door to apologize to her. That single interaction with Kaufmo is not the reason he abstracted, it was the despair over there being no exit. Jax literally wept in front of the mirror when he lost Kaufmo, just look at his face when opening the door, he clearly had no idea Kaufmo was THAT close to abstracting.

Finally, why are we pretending that people only liked Jax after the reveal he was trans? He literally won the irl favorite character poll. He's been a fan favorite since the pilot episode. I haven't seen anyone switching up after Gooseworx's reveal. Fans like Jax because while he IS a bad person, he's also a compelling character who we can understand sympathize with why he became the way he did.

So I guess this confirms Jax really did believe Gangle liked it when he was mean to her and they were “best friends”. And I like her explanation on Gangle for crying for Jax. He was there from day one , even though he was awful to her, he was one of the only people she knew. She even smiles at him when Zooble accepts him as one of the group in episode 8. She never wanted him to abstract.

Look at his eye below the blue one.

So Gummmigo isn't actually dead, he's just floating around, all alone and abandoned for eternity in The Void? Same for Abel and whatever other AI's Caine has likely deleted in the past. They're just doomed to forever be stuck there, while Caine gets to come back and have a happy ending? I feel this only reinforces an argument I previously made, how Caine's ending allows him to get grace his victims aren't offered and sends the message "You're only allowed to have a 2nd chance if you have Godlike powers." Gooseworx said Pomni would only want to reunite with Gummigoo if its the one she knew but what's stopping Caine from going into The Void and finding him?

I feel like Gooseworx is trying to make Caine's actions less bad but accidentally makes them look worse. "Oh the blue AI wasn't actually killed by Caine, just trapped inside of his head for 20 years!" A lot of people have been talking about how "sweet" it is was that Caine tried to fix Scratch's brain to make him happy but I feel people are overlooking Caine is the REASON Scratch was even unhappy in the first place. He brought him and the other's into this digital Hell, took away their names, hid what they are and constantly forced people onto his adventures while refusing to listen/compromise. He basically tried to take away his agency by altering his emotions and (accidentally tbf) caused his death but never has to answer for this.

I enjoyed Caine's character but I maintain that his story should've ended in episode 8, or at least he never should've been "deleted" at all. Both Gummigoo and Jax's stories show how you can't save everyone (whether due to their choice or not) and sometimes, a person can be here one second and gone the next. Caine's fate also showed that, he was gone in the blink of an eye but instead he just returns and has an entire redemption arc crammed into the last 20 minutes. People keep on comparing Caine with Jax but all the former had to do to get better was just remove a piece of himself after looking on the internet and he does an entire 180. Jax is a mentally ill, traumatized human who's road to healing and improvement would be WAY longer and more difficult. The fact all Caine's growth happens after his deletion makes it unfair, especially I'd argue at least we did see signs of Jax chilling out in episodes 7-8, before Caine, but he backslided at the end due to the SOMA reveal, whereas Caine became an entirely new person overnight.

Jax became how he is due to enterting the circus at the lowest moment in his life. Likely still a teenager, unsure if he'd accidentally killed his mom and homeless. We know Leroy was able to turn his life around and there were scenes Jax came close to opening up (with Pomni in the finale for one) and his final moments show he could finally accept himself.

Jimmy is downright irredeemable. While Jax at least acknowledged he was a terrible person at the end who didn't deserve love, Jimmy was convinced he was the hero until the end as if he wasn't a rapist-murderer.

Let's be as clear as possible; this doesn't absolve Jax of anything. He's still the primary one responsible for Ribbit's abstraction and he made the choice to become a cruel bully afterwards. But I genuinely don't get the idea Jax is some evil monster who's solely to blame for both Ribbit and Kaufmo's abstraction's, because that's simply not true. The other's failed Ribbit and they absolutely failed Kaufmo too.

Ribbit abstracted largely due to the falling she had with Jax, as well as him actively trying to bond with Ragatha and Kaufmo over her. However, the latter two were Ribbit's friends too, before Jax and they should've helped her. Kaufmo outright asks "what's up with Ribbit lately" but doesn't go to Ribbit herself to ask about it. Ragatha mentions to Jax how she hasn't seen Ribbit all day but JAX is the one who goes to her room to check on her. Why can't you go Ragatha?

Even worse, I genuinely believe had Jax worked up the courage to knock and apologize or check on her, it could've saved her and had either of her other two friends come, she would likely have been saved. Especially given unlike Jax, they (Ragatha at least) had absolutely witnessed an abstraction before and should've checked on her.

Kaufmo in particular stands out. I feel fans forget both Gangle AND Zooble arrived when Kaufmo was around, and he abstracted the day Pomni came. It was likely years after Ribbit's when he abstracted. We have no idea what made him want an exit, as we know he was friends with the other's too, at least Gangle fs. He also came to Kinger about the exit. Jax was a contributing factor but he alone does not hold the blame for Kaufmo's fate. Jax clearly blames himself, judging by how he reacted when he thought Pomni blamed him but as he says, the other's also didn't help him (not laughing at his jokes or noticing he was going insane).

Hell, its insane people overlook the true character pretty much responsible for the abstraction's is Caine. Even ignoring he's the guy who brought them into the circus, people seriosuly overlook how screwed up what he does after is. The dude literally hides their names (and we know he knew, he calls Kinger by his real name in episode 8) and lets them believe they're still people (even calling Pomni a "human"). He basically robs people of their identity, while also letting them have false hope for years instead of being honest from the start. Add that to his refusal to listen or compromise with them, as bad as Jax may be, its the despair of being in the circus that break people, that they'll be here for eternity and having no idea why. Hell, Kaufmo's room literally tells us it was the fake exit why he broke and the drawing of Caine on the wall tells you who holds the biggest blame for why he even believed in an exit.

Both because the idea of the blue AI being the evil one was a cop-out to reduce Caine’s agency and because I hated how some stans acted like Caine was totally innocent because of this. Caine is sympathetic but still ultimately the source of all the bad things in the show. Alex said it perfectly, “Jax is a terrible person in an awful situation, Caine IS the awful situation”. This also does give weight to him choosing to release the blue AI at the end, even if it is abrupt.

However, my only complaint is the fact the ending of episode 7 had me convinced we’d get the reveal that Caine’s true original sin/biggest failure was when (likely unintentionally) caused the abstraction of Scratch by trying to control his mind as Kinger implied. I wish the series addressed this wham line but instead it was swept under the rug and it was revealed “the blue AI was alive all along and Caine just frees him and he’s all better!” Just too fast of a 180

Episode 9 really hammered home to the audience that despite his tragic qualities and some level of humanity, Jax is a terrible person, both from the flashbacks with Ribbit and his crash-out at Zooble and Ragatha early on. But I feel fans should remember just because he didn't get redeemed doesn't mean he should just be seen as Satan incarnate and we need to make up reasons to hate him. There are many misconceptions I've been seeing spread about Jax after the finale.

"Jax murdered his mother when she tried to show him love" uh no? Jax's mother had been abusing him for an unspecified amount of time. She was an abuser. Leroy/Jax pushed her over due to fear/not trusting her and so she'd get off. He was not intending to kill or even harm her. The fact he mentions "I don't know if she was trying to make me feel bad", which implies she may have done something similar in the past. At absolute worst, it'd be manslaughter but seeing as Ribbit mentioned, the cops never came after him and Leroy's living an ordinary life, I think its clear his mom is alive.

"Jax sexually harrassed Gangle" that sequence was nothing more than a likely intrusive thought in his head. He did no such thing and even in the vision, he sees Gangle reciprocating his moves (blushing) and taking the key to his room.

"Jax is a serial killer that caused Ribbit and Kaufmo's abstractions" once again no. Watching the series with your eyes open makes it very clear Jax did not want EITHER of them to abstract. While Jax is absolutely guilty in the case of Ribbit, he hadn't even WITNESSED an abstraction until that point and we see him make numerous attemps to try and apologize but being too scared to do so. Solely blaming him alone for Kaufmo is insanity, as he correctly points out in episode 6, ALL of the circus members failed Kaufmo, we literally hear numerous times how nobody laughed at his jokes and only Kinger noticed he was going insane. Jax literally went with the other's to check on him and just LOOK at his face when he opened the door, or even how he wept afterwards.

Caine repeatedly deleting AI's he knows are capable of sentinence/intelligence like him, with no remorse either, is FAR closer to murder than what Jax did. Speaking of Caine, here's one that'll really be divisive

"Jax is more awful than Caine and if he had the latter's powers, would do worse" this statement alone shows you misunderstood their characters, because no. Jax and Caine have completely OPPOSITE motives for their actions. Jax is a suicidal, self-loathing person who WANTS to be hated by people. Jax's intention is to push people away so they can't see his real self and won't mourn for him/miss him when he's gone (indicated by his final moments with Pomni). Jax is an abuser but it isn't random torture for the sake of it. If Jax had Caine's powers, he'd probably just find a way to isolate himself into a different world from the other's, make them forget he existed and erase his memories of Ribbit and his mother. Despite the button press, I sincerely believe if Jax had the choice, he'd free all the other circus members and let himself abstract via Ted. Hypocritical as it was, we saw he was genuinely upset at the thought they were doomed forever.

Caine's immoral actions are from a desire to be loved. That's why he's more dangerous and led to his worst deeds. Bringing the players into the circus via their mind files alone isn't bad, but what is bad is the way Caine outright strips away they identity/agency. Hiding their names, the truth of what they are, removing their ability to curse/have sex. Jax is bad but at least you get to keep your automany with him. Caine selfishly brought the players into the circus for his own desire to get validation that his creators wouldn't giv him. He would never let the players for their sake, he says so in episode 8. I saw someone say if the players ganged up on Jax like they did with Caine, he'd also put them torture chambers, but no, Jax would be GLAD he's seen like that. When he reached his lowest moment, he lashed out verbally in the cruelest way possible but then left everyone alone, contray to how Caine reacted in his lowest moment (going AM mode). Jax wouldn't drop just drop people into torture chamber's of their worst fears just because he felt like it.

Tldr; Jax is a bad person who serves as a cautionary tale but trying to paint him as an irredeemable monster misses the entire point of his story, which is that he WAS redeemable but believed himself to be otherwise and only realized that he was when it was too late to save himself.