Please tell me if I‘m missing something!

I’m writing this because of an Instagram post I came across earlier today. It was your typical clickbait post about “top 4 characters in Marvel who can defeat God Loki.” Most on the list were correct: they listed Franklin Richards, the Living Tribunal, the Beyonder and the One Above All. I agree with the beings that exist outside of time, but I didn’t completely agree with Franklin Richards and I’ll tell you why soon. The main reason for writing this is the comments. A lot of MCU fans don’t really realize how truly powerful Loki is now. I think even some comic book fans aren’t aware. In the Instagram comments some people said Wanda would beat Loki and ridiculous things like that.

So let me actually break this down properly, because most of these arguments are missing something huge.

What Loki actually becomes at the end of Season 2

He doesn’t just “get strong.” He tears apart the Temporal Loom, absorbs the energy of every branching timeline, and becomes the living Yggdrasil holding the entire multiverse together. He’s not a fighter anymore. He’s a structural force of reality. He’s infrastructure.

The other thing people sleep on is where his time manipulation comes from. The TVA exists outside of time entirely, and Loki could still time travel from there. To understand why that’s broken, think about The Sims. The Sims living in the game experience time as it flows in their world, and they exist within the reality of that game, its rules, its physics, everything that defines their existence. But you, the player, exist completely outside of both. The game’s time doesn’t affect you. The game’s rules don’t apply to you. You can pause their time, rewind it, jump to any point in their save file, and nothing that happens inside that game, no matter how powerful a Sim gets, can ever touch you. That’s the TVA. What makes Loki’s ability broken is that he could time travel from that position, reaching into the game from somewhere the game can never reach back. That’s not a better version of time travel. It’s a fundamentally different category of existence.

Timelines vs realities, and why Loki is outside both

A lot of people use these terms interchangeably but they’re actually different things and understanding the difference matters for this debate.

A reality is a complete self-contained universe. Its own space, matter, physical laws, everything that defines what exists and what’s possible. Earth-616 is a reality. The MCU is a reality.

A timeline is the sequence of events running through a reality. The causal chain of what happens in what order. The flow of cause and effect.

You might assume that Loki having authority over timelines means he can rewind events within a universe but can’t affect the universe itself. That would be a reasonable ceiling for his power. Except the Marvel Fandom wiki explicitly describes the TVA as an infinitely vast bureaucracy that exists outside of time AND reality in the Null-Time Zone. Not just outside of time. Outside of reality too.

If the TVA exists outside of both, and Loki is now the structural engine holding the TVA together, then Loki exists outside of both time and reality entirely. He’s not rewinding events within a universe. He’s not even outside a universe looking in. He’s outside the concept of universes altogether.

One honest caveat worth mentioning: the same source says the TVA governed “a sizeable number of the infinite realities.” Not all of them. That implies some boundary exists at the absolute edges of Marvel cosmology. But within the scope of the Marvel multiverse as we know it, Loki’s position is outside of the entire framework.

The part that actually changes everything

In 2024 Marvel released a TVA comic series written by Katharyn Blair, who actually wrote Loki Season 2. The series is set directly after Season 2 and Marvel officially described it as the comics TVA being “blended with its MCU counterpart.” The Marvel wiki now treats them as the same evolving organization.

Here’s why that matters. The comics TVA has jurisdiction over a sizeable number of realities across the Marvel multiverse, including Earth-616. She-Hulk was literally put on trial by them. The Fantastic Four dealt with them. There is, according to the comics, only ONE TVA across all of Marvel.

So Loki, as the structural engine of that single TVA, exists outside of time and reality in a position that encompasses a sizeable portion of the entire Marvel multiverse. Earth-616, Franklin Richards, Scarlet Witch, all of it falls within the framework he exists outside of.

What this does to the Franklin Richards argument

Some people say “b-but Franklin Richards is one of the most powerful beings in Marvel!” Yes, but only if he gets to exist. Franklin is immune to reality warping, this means he’s immune against Wanda for example. But Loki isn’t warping reality. If Loki erases the timeline before Franklin was born, Franklin doesn’t even exist.

Franklin’s immunity triggers when someone reaches into existence and changes what IS. Temporal erasure removes the cause upstream before Franklin exists to be immune to anything. The future version of Franklin that could counter this never comes into being in the first place. You can’t use your powers to stop something that prevents you from ever having powers.

Yes Franklin can create new universes. But that only works if he already exists and already has his powers. If Loki erases the timeline before his birth, there is no Franklin to create anything. The argument defeats itself.

And before anyone brings up the one story that connects Franklin to the TVA, it actually makes this argument stronger, not weaker. In Marvel Knights 4, the TVA contacted Reed Richards directly because eight minutes of time had gone missing from Earth-616. Franklin helped defeat Ramades, son of Kang, by using those missing minutes against him, after which the TVA cleaned up and repaired the timeline themselves. Franklin wasn’t controlling the TVA in that story. He was operating inside their jurisdiction helping them fix a problem they were already monitoring. That’s the opposite of being above them. It’s a Sim helping the player debug the game while still being inside it.

At the most fundamental level, Franklin exists inside a reality and inside a timeline. Both of those things are inside the framework that Loki exists outside of. Franklin isn’t even playing the same game. He’s a Sim. Loki is outside the computer.

Wanda doesn’t even come close

This one genuinely baffled me in the comments. Scarlet Witch at any version is a comfortable loss against Season 2 Loki. She exists inside a reality and inside a timeline, which means she exists entirely within the framework that Loki is outside of. House of M Wanda reshaping reality is insane, but reshaping something you exist inside of is completely different from existing outside of it altogether. The fact that the Living Tribunal had to respond to House of M tells you she’s below his level, not equal to it. She has no demonstrated ability to exist outside of time or reality. This isn’t a debate.

What actually remains uncertain, and why

Now that we’ve established Loki exists outside of both time and reality, the list of things that can genuinely challenge him gets much shorter.

First, a lot of people get the Phoenix debate wrong because they don’t know the difference between the Phoenix Force and the White Phoenix of the Crown. They’re the same entity but at completely different levels of realization. The Phoenix Force manifesting through a host is still operating within the system and Loki wins that comfortably. Dark Phoenix is the force at a dangerous uncontrolled level, universe destroying but still a being operating inside the framework. The White Phoenix of the Crown is the Phoenix Force at its absolute maximum, completely awakened, operating outside of time and space entirely. Jean Grey reached this state in the “Here Comes Tomorrow” storyline. That’s the only version of Phoenix worth discussing against Loki.

The White Phoenix of the Crown is described as predating the universe itself, existing before reality and the timeline structure were even a thing. Both Loki and the WPotC make a claim to existing outside the system. Neither clearly contains the other. This one genuinely stays unresolved.

Now here’s where a lot of people will push back. What about abstract entities like Eternity, Death and Oblivion? The common argument is that Eternity IS the universe as a conscious entity and therefore transcends anything within reality. But that argument only works if Loki is operating within reality. He isn’t. Loki exists outside of reality. If Eternity IS a reality, then Eternity is inside the framework that Loki exists outside of. The same applies to Death and Oblivion. They are fundamental forces of existence, but existence itself is inside the framework. That’s a significant downgrade for all of them in this specific matchup.

Hickman’s Beyonders are probably still above Loki, and it’s important to note these are completely different from the classic Beyonder. They killed the Living Tribunal and destroyed the entire multiverse as an experiment. They don’t just exist outside of time and reality, they exist outside of the system that contains time and reality. That distinction is what keeps them above Loki.

The Living Tribunal, the pre-retcon Beyonder and the One Above All are still clearly above him. They don’t just exist outside of reality, they exist above the concept of existence itself. That’s a different category entirely and no amount of TVA scaling changes that.

TL;DR:

Loki went from “guy holding one multiverse together” to a being that exists outside of time and reality entirely, as the structural engine of the only TVA that spans all of Marvel. He beats Franklin, he beats Wanda, abstract entities like Eternity are inside the framework he exists outside of, and the only things clearly above him are beings that transcend the concept of existence itself rather than just existing outside of it.

Most people arguing against him are using the wrong framework. He’s not a fighter you beat in a conventional sense anymore. He exists outside the game entirely. And the gap between that and where people think he sits is much bigger than almost anyone in those Instagram comments or people in general realized.

Hey True Believers,

I was planning to post one of these per week, but I'm out of town next week, so I'll go ahead and leave 1962 a bit early. I'm hoping these posts can spark some good conversation and highlight some of the excellent silver age books that some may overlook. I'm not at all versed in the history of Marvel or creator backstories, just want to share my thoughts. I feel like I should explain my rating system in case any of these seem a bit too high/low as everyone has their own strategy for rating, so please check out the bottom of the post for an explanation.

1962 Marvel Book Ratings

After a 1961 Marvel Universe debut with 3 , stellar Fantastic Four issues, we get 4 classic debuts, some better than others.

I'll start listing the average scores for the creators, but it is a bit difficult to pull good data with the anthology books having so many authors on them, so it may not be as accurate as I'd like until later in the decade.

Creator Scores

Favorite Books

While none of these earned a 5/5 for me, these were all 4/5 or 4.5/5

• Amazing Spider-Man #1
• Amazing Fantasy #15
• Fantastic Four #5
• Fantastic Four #6
• Fantastic Four #8
• Fantastic Four #10
• The Incredible Hulk #1

Least Favorite Books - These earned 2.5/5

• Journey Into Mystery #84
• The Incredible Hulk #4
• The Incredible Hulk #5

Brief notes on this year's books

Fantastic Four - Building off the great intro from last year, we see the introductions of Doom, Alicia, Puppetmaster, and financial problems

Amazing Fantasy/Amazing Spider-Man - One of the greatest origins in comics, we get some fantastic story telling and a relatable teenage hero with a dash of concerning nerd rage. The Chameleon is introduced, Spidey immediately is connected to the Marvel Universe by meeting the FF, and JJJ begins his long run as one of the best antagonists in comics.

Journey Into Mystery - A strange and confusing origin for Thor with some rough plots, these early issues aren't great, but we do get Jane, Loki, Odin, and Heimdall. This run gets much better in coming years, and they eventually explain the origin.

The Incredible Hulk - I enjoyed the first issue, but the short-lived horror solo book never finds it's footing. We do get Thunderbolt Ross, Betty, Rick Jones, and introductions to the Circus of Crime as well as the seldom used Tyrannus.

Tales of Suspense - Issue #39 introduces Tony as Iron Man, but this wasn't a well-written debut, and it certainly doesn't stand the test of time. Big "red scare" vibes here and Tony's manufacturing plants are the only thing that can keep the "commies" from winning.

I read Spidey, FF, Thor when I first started this project three years ago, and Iron Man and Hulk more recently. Most of these comics get stronger in the next few years in my opinion.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on 1962 Marvel!

• Did I miss any excellent books?
• Am I being too negative about early Thor?
• Is Spidey overrated?
• Is Iron Man's silver armor going to scare children?
• How many "R's" does Thor have in his name?
• Post any favorite panels you might have in the comments.

Previous Years

1961

Scoring System

5/5 Great comic - Excellent art and storytelling, compelling me to spend more time rereading panels and enjoying the art. I do think I may have ranked a bit too many X-Men and Spider-Man books this high, but I'll let you judge as I post my reviews.

4.5/5 A very, very good comic - Writing and art are both exceptional and the plot is interesting. These are books that will still be good a decade from now.

4/5 A good comic - Writing and art are both strong and the comic tells a good story. For me, this is where creators like Roger Stern live. These aren't my favorite comics, but they are worth rereading and I tend to buy these in collected editions.

3.5/5 Above-average - Either writing OR art is strong here. This could also be a book that is average but has one amazing panel that gets a bump up. When I think of 3.5, I think of writers like Steve Englehart. These are solid books that have a good idea or move the character forward in some way.

3/5 Average comic - Inoffensive, but with a good pace. I don't want to reread these any time soon, but I'm certainly not angry I read them.

2.5/5 Below-average comic - These are either have poor art OR poor writing. Confusing plots, or inadvertently offensive. I wouldn't want to reread this if I could avoid it.

2/5 A bad comic - Comics that seem pointless. The plot is confusing or adds nothing to the character.

1.5/5 and below Awful comic - These books for make me angry with the editor for allowing them to be published. They're either promoting horrible view points, extremely lazy, or maybe I was having a disagreement with my partner and took it out on an average comic. Either way, we definitely talked things through in the end and we're doing great, but I couldn't be bothered to go back and edit my ratings.

I started Krakoa A couple months ago and read each series up to X of Swords, then read the whole event. I'm doing the same thing again, reading all the issues of one series up to the next event before moving on to the next series but man... X-Force didn't really hold my interest in Dawn of X And I'm not exactly looking forward to reading more of it.

Am I missing anything good if I choose to skip it at least until Hellfire Gala?