u/Affectionate_Edge472

These are the two excerpts we get about NCR High Command

"You will not be assigned replacements until High Command can figure out where the hell to pull replacements from. You have my sympathies, Major. Signed, Scheppman, Andy Assignments Office." - Forlorn Hope Mandate

"I've seen the reports of this so-called "Caesar's Legion". It sounds like they're just another bunch of raiders, but the higher-ups back west seem to think they're a serious threat." - NCRF Terminals

With these combined we can see the NCR High Command is both afraid of the Legion and is struggling to find men to send to Forlorn Hope. I also think the implication that the higher ups are struggling to find men to send to Forlorn Hope is also an implication they cannot find men for the Mojave. I also think it is important to consider that if the NCR army was quite large in the home territories the NCR high command would have no reason for fear.

That is not to say they couldn't raise more men, but I believe the current army size is constrained by the senate. Just like the real U.S Government.

"He mustered the troops as many as his senate would allow and sent them in. All the right reasons, done all the wrong ways." - Caesar

But where is the rest of the NCR army? I believe they are controlling the other 300 miles down the Colorado river across from Legion territory, Baja, other territories, and the rest of NCR territory.

Let me know what you think of this interpretation if you believe it is the intended one by the developers or if there is evidence of large NCR reserves elsewhere.

Obviously, there is a decent amount of speculation. I got the battalion numbers from in game. Elements from 5 are stationed in Primm. 14 is in the NCR emergency radio. 452 is in the dogtag fist. This has enough speculation that its not a real lore post. Just for fun to fill out the blanks as i see it.

Hsu - in charge of the 452nd battalion stationed across the Mojave.

Moore- in charge of a battalion (number unknown) at Hoover Dam.

Royez - (potentially) in charge of battalion 14 (comprising Oliver Heavy Troopers and additional trooper support)

Unknown Colonel - Battalion 5 (California garrison battalion with its garrison extended to the surrounding area, including Primm, and Mojave Outpost.)

So at the second battle of Hoover Dam with my interpretation

-3 battalions (partially supplemented by Heavy Troopers).

- rangers and veteran rangers

- support from a California Garrison Battalion (Primm, Mojave Outpost)

- other NCR supporting staff

Let me know if you agree or disagree with my interpretation

I assume Royez is supervising his battalions movement across the long 15. A giant undertaking which would take a long time. I also assume priority is given to the heavy troopers going first to the Mojave. With the rest of the battalion only arriving around the time the second battle is actively underway.

Reasoning: I think this makes sense since 452nd battalion must be Hsu's. Moore must not have battalion 14 since it is being commanded to the southwestern flank. So a third battalion with a third colonel and battalion must be in play. Royez seems to be leading the heavy troopers and is probably attached to a battalion since he is a colonel.

Battalion 5 is probably a California Garrison battalion since the troops do not seem attached to any other battalion. They also muster troops from a major gerard. The only unseen major in game. Also mustering additional troops to attack the prison from somewhere.

Side note: i do think another colonel is present at Long 15 (aka Baker California IMO) he just dies during the nuke like all the regular troopers.

Let me know what you think

I'm going to start with a quote from Jsawyer and then establish why I agree with him.

Jsawyer: "NCR's strategy was focused on pushing Caesar's Legion out. Pursuing them and engaging in skirmishes along the eastern banks of the Colorado would have been haphazard and served no great benefit."

When you examine the first battle in detail you can see why this makes sense. (Sources listed at the end)

Causalities: the NCR suffered 108 KIA during the battle, and additionally enough wounded to keep the doctors "hands full for weeks" The number of wounded in particular leaves a much smaller force left to pursue with.

Reinforcements: if the NCR was properly reinforced, they could more easily pursue. Unfortunately, several NCR companies acting as Hoover Dam's reinforcements were killed in the divide explosion according to Joshua Graham. Since this wasn't the case, they didn't have the means to pursue.

The status of legion forces: Legion forces were routed from the dam itself but not routed from their defensive positions. You can see this in the game guide and in the intro cinematic. This left the still large legionary force in defensive positions that would be difficult to take with the condition of the NCR army.

This is why I think it strategically doesn't make sense to pursue the Legion after the first battle.

I decided to make this post because over the years I had always seen the question "why did they not pursue?" and I wanted to give a complete answer. Even recently I had seen several comments about how it was a blunder to not pursue, and I wanted to answer that interpretation with evidence as to why I disagreed.

Sources:

"Caesar’s forces were pushed back but not routed." - game guide

Boulder City Memorial Dead Count: 108

"Anyone with medical training had their hands full for weeks after the battle was finally over." - Dr. Alex Richards on the first battle of Hoover Dam

"Despite heavy casualties, the NCR's victory is celebrated back home." - game guide

"Terrible storms ripped entire companies apart before they even got to Nevada soil. The aftermath of Hoover Dam could have been even worse for Caesar." - Graham

I'm going to start with a quote from Jsawyer and then establish why I agree with him.

Jsawyer: "NCR's strategy was focused on pushing Caesar's Legion out. Pursuing them and engaging in skirmishes along the eastern banks of the Colorado would have been haphazard and served no great benefit."

When you examine the first battle in detail you can see why this makes sense. (Sources listed at the end)

Causalities: the NCR suffered 108 KIA during the battle, and additionally enough wounded to keep the doctors "hands full for weeks" The number of wounded in particular leaves a much smaller force left to pursue with.

Reinforcements: if the NCR was properly reinforced, they could more easily pursue. Unfortunately, several NCR companies acting as Hoover Dam's reinforcements were killed in the divide explosion according to Joshua Graham. Since this wasn't the case, they didn't have the means to pursue.

The status of legion forces: Legion forces were routed from the dam itself but not routed from their defensive positions. You can see this in the game guide and in the intro cinematic. This left the still large legionary force in defensive positions that would be difficult to take with the condition of the NCR army.

This is why I think it strategically doesn't make sense to pursue the Legion after the first battle.

I decided to make this post because over the years I had always seen the question "why did they not pursue?" and I wanted to give a complete answer. Even recently I had seen several comments about how it was a blunder to not pursue, and I wanted to answer that interpretation with evidence as to why I disagreed.

Sources:

"Caesar’s forces were pushed back but not routed." - game guide

Boulder City Memorial Dead Count: 108

"Anyone with medical training had their hands full for weeks after the battle was finally over." - Dr. Alex Richards on the first battle of Hoover Dam

"Despite heavy casualties, the NCR's victory is celebrated back home." - game guide

"Terrible storms ripped entire companies apart before they even got to Nevada soil. The aftermath of Hoover Dam could have been even worse for Caesar." - Graham

Joshua Graham- Labienus Caesar's real life second in command who defected after Caesar's march on Rome. Just like Graham he helped conquer "Gaul" since the very beginning.

Lanius - Mark Antony who replaced Labienus as second in command. The politically unintelligent warlord. With Denver serving as a mirror to Antony's campaign in Parthia.

Far less evidence for the ones below, but they are my picks.

Lucius - Lepidus

Vulpes- Octavian

Aurelius - Agrippa

I am not an expert on roman history if you have any other ideas or corrections let me know. When I say mirrors of course its only a rough similarity, I don't expect an exact 1:1 model.

Obviously Caesar is Caesar
And Marcus L Crassus is Marcus L Crassus

"How is it that Joshua Graham doesn't know Lanius and has only heard rumors about him?"- Formspring Question

"... even if there was some overlap between their time in the Legion, they weren't in close contact." - Jsawyer

Just getting the argument out of the way for the below Graham dialogue because ultimately it is a discussion killing misinterpretation.

"I don't know Lanius, but from what I've heard, he has no interest in leading anyone unless it's in battle." - Joshua Graham

Here Jsawyer elaborates that the Joshua Graham dialogue is supposed to denote that he didn't know him personally.

End of Counterarguement:

"Those Marked Men in Hopeville - some had strange masks and blades I'd never seen before." - Courier

"Crude, effective - like the blades they carry, distant mirrors of their Legate. A symbol they can hold on to - while the Divide tears at them." - Ulysses (on marked men wearing Lanius masks)

Here you can that the Marked Men make divide masks of legate lanius because he was their legate. Since the divide was destroyed pre-hoover dam that must mean that Lanius was already a legate. Therefore, with this and Sawyer's comment Joshua Graham simply meant he didn't know him personally, and Lanius was indeed a pre-hoover dam legate.

Auxiliary Sources:

"I can say that we were both lucky that NCR's supply lines and land routes north of Mojave Outpost were destroyed before the Battle of Hoover Dam." - Joshua Graham (source for the divides destruction before Hoover Dam.)

"They bear false versions of Legate Lanius' mask, the one Caesar fashioned for him. Thought it was an insult at first.... {to himself} know better now.{No sound file}" - Ulyesses (source for the Men imitating their legate by wearing imitating masks.)

"How is it that Joshua Graham doesn't know Lanius and has only heard rumors about him?"- Formspring Question

"... even if there was some overlap between their time in the Legion, they weren't in close contact." - Jsawyer

Just getting the argument out of the way for the below Graham dialogue because ultimately it is a discussion killing misinterpretation.

"I don't know Lanius, but from what I've heard, he has no interest in leading anyone unless it's in battle." - Joshua Graham

Here Jsawyer elaborates that the Joshua Graham dialogue is supposed to denote that he didn't know him personally.

End of Counterarguement:

"Those Marked Men in Hopeville - some had strange masks and blades I'd never seen before." - Courier

"Crude, effective - like the blades they carry, distant mirrors of their Legate. A symbol they can hold on to - while the Divide tears at them." - Ulysses (on marked men wearing Lanius masks)

Here you can that the Marked Men make divide masks of legate lanius because he was their legate. Since the divide was destroyed pre-hoover dam that must mean that Lanius was already a legate. Therefore, with this and Sawyer's comment Joshua Graham simply meant he didn't know him personally, and Lanius was indeed a pre-hoover dam legate.

Auxiliary Sources:

"I can say that we were both lucky that NCR's supply lines and land routes north of Mojave Outpost were destroyed before the Battle of Hoover Dam." - Joshua Graham (source for the divides destruction before Hoover Dam.)

"They bear false versions of Legate Lanius' mask, the one Caesar fashioned for him. Thought it was an insult at first.... {to himself} know better now.{No sound file}" - Ulyesses (source for the Men imitating their legate by wearing imitating masks.)

I have never seen a post on this before, but the fiend's recruitment network is massive. Spanning several Mojave gangs and stretching into Utah and California itself. The Fiends have a huge network of recruitment.

In the Mojave the Greasers of North Vegas and Scorpions of West Side have both lost many of their men to the fiend's recruitment. From Utah Driver Nephi's group has joined them coming all the way from New Canaan. Chem addicts from California also seem to make their way into the fiends.

It makes a lot more sense how the fiends are getting daily reinforcements and gaining in size with this in mind. Really surprised to see this info wasn't on the wiki so i decided to post it here.

Sources:

"two much more pitiful gangs, who have lost their brethren (both in violence, or by recruitment) to the Fiends; the stinking Greaser Gang who terrorize the North Vegas Sewers, and the Scorpion Gang, who fight intermittent skirmishes with Westside residents" - game guide

"I hear you came from Utah. A friend of yours asked me to check on you. Bert?" - courier to Driver Nephi

"Psycho! The big red one! I used to run with the Fiends, I still got the hookups. Smuggle some in and you'll see an improvement." - razz (razz is from the boneyard)

Gaius Magnus is very interesting for a few reasons , but what really confused me is it’s so hard to tell what his role is in the legion. Is he a legate or a regular centurion?

I saw that he is mentioned as a Centurion twice in the GECK. Along with his centurion helmet I think it’s a safe bet he actually isn’t a legate.

Instead I think he serves a different role. The primus pilus is a Roman rank it’s the most senior centurion in a legion. He outranks every other centurion.

They lead the first cohort (which is double in size to all other cohorts. It is also comprised entirely of veterans). That is 800 men.

I think Gaius Magnus is this man. The leader of the legions veterans in Caesar’s forces in the Mojave. Basically he is in Dry Wells supervising the Veteran cores entrance into the Mojave. I also believe that Colonel Royez is doing the same thing, but with the heavy troopers.

Speculation:

It is also interesting that the only known primus pilus of the real 10th legion is named Gaius. (The 10th legion is the legion Caesar’s legion is based off of.)

This is considering that sometimes Caesar does indeed give people themed names based on roman history like his legionary consul Marcus L Crassus who was a real consul

I believe Oliver isn’t actually that bad of a general. Most critiques of him are out of his control or false.

1. For instance he actually does reinforce his flanks.
2. In 2281 he sets up Ranger Station Echo, Camp Guardian, and Nelson all to reinforce his flanks.

Unfortunately Nelson and Camp Guardian are immediately destroyed.

He also diverts men from the prison to patrol the river. This does result in a bad outcome, but with Oliver’s intent to reinforce the river you can not say he didn’t attempt to reinforce his flanks.

2. Oliver isn’t supplying his outposts. This isn’t exactly the case. The supply situation is already terrible, but he does try to fix it as mentioned here.

“McCarran has requested more frequent supply runs to their outlying outposts.” - Crimson Caravan Terminal

These supply issues are also entirely out of his control.
- the NCR sharecropper farms output is dropping due to irradiated water
- New Canaan has been destroyed
-NCR caravans are also being slaughtered by the Crimson Caravan and Van Graffs
-when Oliver does supply his outposts the legion interdicts the supplies. For instance at Forlorn Hope supplies diverted from Helios are taken by the legion. And supplies diverted to Searchlight are also taken by Frumentari.
-Supplies are also stolen by NCR personnel. For instance Private Stone and Contreras are stealing vital supplies.

3. Oliver is acting on the intelligence he has. We have the ability to know everything since we play the game.

Oliver is already getting bad intelligence from Hanlon and his map of the Mojave is very different from the situation.

For example he has no idea Ranger Station Charlie, Nipton, and Camp Guardian are gone.

That’s a whole town and two NCR military bases that he still thinks exist due to lack of intel.

4. His strategy at the Dam is however bad, but the situation is also quite bad I do not think many generals could withstand the Rube Goldberg machine plan the legion has at the second battle of Hoover Dam

I believe Oliver isn’t actually that bad of a general. Most critiques of him are out of his control or false.

1. For instance he actually does reinforce his flanks.
   In 2281 he sets up Ranger Station Echo, Camp Guardian, and Nelson all to reinforce his flanks.

Unfortunately Nelson and Camp Guardian are immediately destroyed.

He also diverts men from the prison to patrol the river. This does result in a bad outcome, but with Oliver’s intent to reinforce the river you can not say he didn’t attempt to reinforce his flanks.

2. Oliver isn’t supplying his outposts. This isn’t exactly the case. The supply situation is already terrible, but he does try to fix it as mentioned here.

“McCarran has requested more frequent supply runs to their outlying outposts.” - Crimson Caravan Terminal

These supply issues are also entirely out of his control.
- the NCR sharecropper farms output is dropping due to irradiated water
- New Canaan has been destroyed
-NCR caravans are also being slaughtered by the Crimson Caravan and Van Graffs
-when Oliver does supply his outposts the legion interdicts the supplies. For instance at Forlorn Hope supplies diverted from Helios are taken by the legion. And supplies diverted to Searchlight are also taken by Frumentari.
-Supplies are also stolen by NCR personnel. For instance Private Stone and Contreras are stealing vital supplies.

3. Oliver is acting on the intelligence he has. We have the ability to know everything since we play the game.

Oliver is already getting bad intelligence from Hanlon and his map of the Mojave is very different from the situation.

For example he has no idea Ranger Station Charlie, Nipton, and Camp Guardian are gone.

That’s a whole town and two NCR military bases that he still thinks exist due to lack of intel.

4. His strategy at the Dam is however bad, but the situation is also quite bad I do not think many generals could withstand the Rube Goldberg machine plan the legion has at the second battle of Hoover Dam

Dead Sea: "I am a loyal servant of Caesar, and I thank my good fortune for the day that he plucked me as a babe from the shore of the Great Salt Lake."

Now you may think it is possible that instead of the Occom's Razor solution of being a white leg child there is another solution. However Jsawyer elaborates on formspring in an interview associated with Honest Hearts. (Jsawyer wrote dead sea and directed Honest Hearts along with creating the white legs).

Dead Sea "plucked from the shores of the great salt lake" and Vulpes are from Utah. How is this so?

Jsaywer: If Dead Sea were a tribal plucked from the shores of the Great Salt Lake and raised by the Legion, what would that make his parents?

Jsawyer gives us a few details here. 1. Dead Sea came from a tribal community from the Great Salt Lake. 2. Jsawyer believes it is quite obvious what group he originated from.
The conclusion here is that indeed the White Legs have been allies with the legion for a while at least long enough for Dead Sea to grow up.

Secondly it appears the Legion has been ordering around the white legs for a while.

"Couldn't let NCR stay in the Divide. Trade route, road the military could use... can't have two roads into the Mojave. Not after the work we'd done to cut off New Canaan, other routes, killing caravans... all we'd done to make the West bleed." - Ulyesses

"Used to be they raided northeast of Caliente, time to time. But then the Desert Rangers fell apart ten years ago, absorbed into the NCR. Eventually the White Legs destroyed the bridges across the Virgin River, over in Arizona. End of discussion." - Stella

With these two combined we can tell that the Legion had taken actions to cut off New Canaan before 2277. We also see the White Legs (who prey on travelers to survive) destroy New Canaan's roadways towards the NCR. This seems to be what Ulysses's is referring to as we never see the Legion cut off New Canaan themselves, and limiting traffic in their territory is directly against the White Leg's own interests.

Many of you may be asking why the legion and white legs would be early allies? They shared enemies particularly the desert rangers who engaged in combat with both factions. They also shared another enemy which was the NCR considering that the NCR Rangers used to fend off White Leg attacks on Interstate 80. They are natural allies.

I decided to make this post since some people didn't seem to think Dead Sea was a white leg or that the white legs and legion interacted before 2277.

Lucius is the only legionary who has a different origin story for Lanius from the Hidebark origin. With the only other variation in stories coming from Antony (who joined far after Lanius and who only slightly deviates from the Hidebark story).

Lucius however is Caesar’s head Praetorian and has been in the legion a long time. Shouldn’t he have been with Caesar during the campaign?

This reasoning is flawed.

“Lucius has been the head of my guard for five years now. He was a subordinate guard for eight before that.” - Caesar

We know the legion conquered Arizona between 2274-2275 so if Lucius became head praetorian in 2276 he wouldn’t have had to be with Caesar during the campaign.

Secondly We know the legions second is also assigned Praetorians. And that Lucius has been assigned to guard Graham over Caesar before. For instance Lucius was assigned to guard Graham during the second battle of Hoover Dam.

My reasoning is Lucius was a praetorian who was assigned to guard Graham during the time of the Hidebarks campaign. So he was not present. Years later he challenged the head of the guard and won.

Lucius is the only legionary who has a different origin story for Lanius from the Hidebark origin. With the only other variation in stories coming from Antony (who joined far after Lanius and who only slightly deviates from the Hidebark story).

Lucius however is Caesar’s head Praetorian and has been in the legion a long time. Shouldn’t he have been with Caesar during the campaign?

This reasoning is flawed.

“Lucius has been the head of my guard for five years now. He was a subordinate guard for eight before that.” - Caesar

We know the legion conquered Arizona between 2274-2275 so if Lucius became head praetorian in 2276 he wouldn’t have had to be with Caesar during the campaign.

Secondly We know the legions second is also assigned Praetorians. And that Lucius has been assigned to guard Graham over Caesar before. For instance Lucius was assigned to guard Graham during the second battle of Hoover Dam.

My reasoning is Lucius was a praetorian who was assigned to guard Graham during the time of the Hidebarks campaign. So he was not present. Years later he challenged the head of the guard and won.

Wendell Peterson was the fourth NCR president he served three terms and was elected a fourth before being immediately ousted 2 months later for an unspecified reason in 2273.

I think that the political turmoil around the BOS destroying the NCR gold reserves is what caused the ousting of Wendell Peterson so early into his term.

This is of course what put the NCR dollar off the gold standard according to Jsawyer’s elaboration on the BOS attacks on the gold reserves. This would be the only thing large enough to immediately make the NCR senate who elected Wendell Peterson immediately reject him just two months later.

Let me know what you think of my theory

Legion
- let us look across the river and see the other legion camps that are mentioned in game. Like Malpais camp for example. We don’t have to be able to go there but it would be cool to see.

- give the legion the Denver Hounds. These stronger hound variants are mentioned a few times, but never found in game. For example Lanius has a skill check for having his hounds stand down but he doesn’t have any hounds. Give him these hounds and that would fix that problem. Also replace the hounds in Caesar’s tent with these stronger hound variants

- make the legion soldiers more lore accurate. Using service rifles, not retreating, etc.

- add back the cut legates camp walkway. It was a winding walkway leading up to the legates camp from the dam you would have to fight through or
march through. Very cool wish they would add it.

-Make Nelson a stronghold. For example give Dead Sea and Alexus the veteran armor they have in their trading cards. There is just no way Dead Sea is a recruit after being a decanus for 5 years. Also make it so Nelson just has more legion troops. It is just far too easy to take in game.

- add in Willow beach because right now Cursor Lucullus tells you your going upstream right now their is no possible place to land. So add in willow beach and just make an impassable gate and say a walkway to get up that you cannot actually use. This way that dialogue actually makes sense.

-also let us buy get tribals spears from the legion safe house and drop box. Because it sucks to get them and this is the faction that actually uses them.

Let me know if these are realistic expectations or if there is anything you would add

Wendell Peterson was the fourth NCR president he served three terms and was elected a fourth before being immediately ousted 2 months later for an unspecified reason in 2273.

I think that the political turmoil around the BOS destroying the NCR gold reserves is what caused the ousting of Wendell Peterson so early into his term.

This is of course what put the NCR dollar off the gold standard according to Jsawyer’s elaboration on the BOS attacks on the gold reserves. This would be the only thing large enough to immediately make the NCR senate who elected Wendell Peterson immediately reject him just two months later.

Let me know what you think of my theory

The legion has roughly 4 other ways of recruiting.

1. Children being born into the legion

The legion actually has a mandatory child count quota for each legionary for this purpose.

“as long as men meet obligations and the child count” - jimmy on the legion child quota

2. They recruit any young male slaves into the legion

“There's a boy, too old to be trained as a Legionary. Normally they have to die, but he's too frail to make trouble.” - canyon runner implies here that young male slaves would be inducted into the legion

3. They purchase or are gifted children by outside sources

“I thank my good fortune for the day that he plucked me as a babe from the shore of the Great Salt Lake.” - Dead Sea on his origin

4. The legion rarely recruits cooperative specialists into their ranks. You can see this with fantastic who joins the legion after Helios One is taken. This does not seem to apply to the followers of the apocalypse for obvious reasons.

Just wanted to make this because I often see the legion portrayed in fnv circles as just composed of assimilated tribals and treating that as the only way the legion can increase its numbers or recruit.