u/CasualCouchZen

Yesterday I was listening to an UG Krishnamurti interview on a loop, hoping that subjecting myself to his words over and over might lead to a minor intellectual revelation while I was cooking dinner. But my mind started drifting and questioning if this person is enlightenend at all. Just because you have a well prepared answer to every question and tell people you've reached a more advanced level of understanding doesn't necessarily mean you do, obviously.

I didn't particularly care though, because I don't know a lot about UG and am not attached to him being "real" or a phony, but then a flood of realizations came crashing down on me. What if all those gurus, "anti-gurus" and especially, the teachers I was following, the "zen masters" got it all wrong and are living in a (shared) delusional state.

All the hallmarks are there:

• They mostly secluded themselves for extensive periods, which one could argue actually puts them out of touch with reality (I know we in the "ND cult" think they are in fact the ones who experience reality)
• They are ignoring a lot of warning signs when their bodies and minds tell them not to go down this extreme road of radical spiritual awakening, which is not natural for us to do (I know some zen masters would argue that sitting in zazen is the most natural state we could be in) and could very well lead to some "psychological damage"
• They are reinforcing their strange behavior through authority figures, strict rules and groupthink
• A lot of them are (kind of) grifting, because they do not work and are living, at least partly, off donations or income FROM now teaching others their questionable philosophy
• When you start criticizing them they will tell you that your whole perception is fundamentally flawed, and even if all your points are rational, that they have risen above rationality and logic so they can never really "lose" any argument(!)
• They spread their "wisdom" to vulnerable followers, who are in the search for something that they can't articulate and are looking for any excuse to find something that "finally makes sense", but who don't want to admit that they are trying to make sense of things either because it sounds too mundane , and for that reason choose a seemingly more sophisticated and paradoxical philosophy
• Once you adopt and practice nondualism some of your problems magically disappear and you feel better, in this comfy, non-judgemental, nothing-is-as-it-seems-to-be, carefree style of living (I know we tell ourselves that it was really hard to get there though)

Since I stepped back and cynically looked at it like that I cannot unsee it anymore. My parents are devout christians and took me to church every week. I was in christian youth groups, had a lot of friends there and thought of myself as a christian. But after broadening my world view through education and life experience I came to the conclusion that I had inadvertently been brainwashed and that this "cult" had indoctrinated me with some really weird ideas that couldn't hold up to thorough scrutiny. Not all of it was bad of course, some great and profound stuff in there, but not what I was looking for or could identify with anymore.

This nonduality movement, school of thought, subculture or whatever you want to call it suddenly feels eerily similar to me. A lot of good intentions, good people striving to better themselves and the world around them - but perhaps ultimately based on a delusion.

And I can hear the counter arguments already: "You just haven't reached the level of understanding of oneness yet, and clinging to your dualistic world view causes your confusion." Guess what, same thing the church people told me just wrapped in different terminology: "You need to have and practice faith to ulimately understand what Gods plan is and it'll all fall into place." Which reads to me "You really have to buy into the delusion and once you're deluded enough you won't care anymore." But now to me the first one sounds like that too.

Are there perhaps others that have been deep inside this cult for decades and then realized it's sort of a hoax?

Enter Jason Shulman, who wrote:

"It has occurred to me, after a lifetime of studying the perspective of nonduality, that this precious gift which has meant so much to me, must be carefully laid down to rest.

As it turns out, many of the elements I had associated with a nondual perspective, such as the co-arising of subject and object, of this and that, of the personal self and the impersonal self, of the continuity and density, began to feel less and less important. I had in many ways, depended upon this level of consciousness because—I see now—it lowered the level of conflict within me and my perception of the world, and thus, allowed me to exist and teach in it with less strain and judgement and more spaciousness. That said, I began to notice a soft glow of nondual consciousness, of some subtle work I had to do on a moment by moment basis in order to maintain this awareness. Whether that was because this awareness was not deeply settled enough in my soul or for some other, unknown reason, I began to both be aware of this level of effort and the co-arising of my decision to end this type of relationship."

I'm not sure whether I'm ultimately done with all of this. Zen has given me a lot of purpose and joy over the last couple of years. And I could turn this revelation around and frame it as an obstacle on my way to enlightenment and grow from it. But all the discussions within myself and among others about the subject have become a shallow string of words.

But what about meditation? What about raw experience, that should ultimately lead to the "truth" right? Might just be another delusion, our monkey brain and ego feeding us sweet morsels telling us we're on a very, very meaningful and amazing path. We're here to survive and reproduce. Maybe evolution didn't turn us into a being that is capable of experiencing the true nature of things, and everyone who claims they do have been thoroughly mislead.

..Or what if what I'm going through at the moment IS englightenment. It took the whole journey to arrive back at the beginning, a rewarding full-circle story like in a Christopher Nolan movie.

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." I think wood and water just might be all there really is.

Edit: Thanks for all the great comments and discussions. Love this sub!