u/Dengru

What do you about this speech of Ahabs?

Along side "To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee" the most famous thing Ahab says is "Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me."

This is nested within a broader speech Ahab is giving. I was wondering, what are your impression of what he says throughout this speech? What do you think Ahab, as character, is conveying here? What is Melville?

If it's your first time reading it, what are your impressions?

What triggers the speech is Starbuck saying this:

>"Vengeance on a dumb brute!" cried Starbuck, "that simply smote thee from blindest instinct! Madness! To be enraged with a dumb thing, Captain Ahab, seems blasphemous."

To which Ahab responds:

>"Hark ye yet again—the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event—in the living act, the undoubted deed—there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. But not my master, man, is even that fair play. Who's over me? Truth hath no confines"

Though a lot of these lines are famous, the context around might be less understood, and have taken on different meaning in culture.

For instance the very concept of "White Whale" as something illusive you spend of energy chasing or trying to master. Additionally, this understanding often has a component of time, as in something spend a long time, or even a lifetime chasing.

Whereas, Ahab is attacked by Moby Dick on his previous voyage, recovers, and finds him on his very next voyage. They find Moby Dick within a year of setting out. It is an obsession but a fairly recent one. Some more details about this timeline. I think for some people, the whales legendary reputation, which precedes the events of the novel, is conflated into how long Ahab has personally been invested in it.

There's also a bit more nuance to what Ahab thinks in regards to Moby Dick, as he demonstrates in his speech. It's often seen as entirely vengeance, at this specific whale, for attacking him. Reading it, you can see Ahab is speaking on a pretty sophisticated level, about what Moby Dick represents to him.

So, yes, what are your thoughts?

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u/Dengru — 1 day ago

Question to young guys

Over the year that's this forum has been around,I have been surprised at how inhibited and self-loathing some of the younger members of this community are.

I'm just wondering, what is this? The needle shifted for so much for being gay, like in 2007, when a lot of you are quite young still, and just gets more and more normalized as time goes. It even got pretty 'woke'. Aren't these social conditions that would produce a generation that can more positively integrate their sexuality? Or at least more relaxed.

Like, someones internal world or immediate environment, isn't entirely improved just on how many gay couples are on TV, or how popular this or that singer is, but it still surprises me the things people say.

The way some of you talk, I'd think you were millennials, but then you'll be like 'yeah I just turned 21'. I also understand that not every zoomer in the world is how the ones are here. It's still that I wonder how these attitudes even began to be formed in a culture that seemed to defanged rhetoric like when you guys were kids and teenagers. Where did you internalize these things?

Being neurotic or uncomfortable with sex with one thing, but very specifically developed complexes about ones sexuality, masculinity and etc I'm not sure.

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u/Dengru — 4 days ago

Quotes about Proust from various writers

Gabriel Marcel, Metaphysical Journal

>November 6th, 1920
I am my body; but I am also my habitual surrounding. This is demonstrated by the laceration, the division with myself that accompanies exile from my home (this is an order of experience that Proust has expressed incomparably). Am I my body in a more essential way than I am my habitual surrounding? If this question is answered in the negative, then death can only be a supreme exile, not an annihilation: This way of stating the problem may at first sight seem childish. But that, I think, is mistaken. We must take in their strictest interpretation words such as belong to (a town, a house, etc.): and the word laceration. It is as though adhesions are broken. Can all this be defined more exactly? I can see clearly that the value of the copula (in I am my body) is uncertain.

Hermann Burger, Brenner

>I cannot avoid suspecting, as you may read in my diary entry of April 17, 1982, a distant relation between the Counts of Leoncebourg and Proust’s Ducs de Guermantes. And Proust says of novel-reading that it is magical like a deep dream, I have just found the place again in the first volume of the Recherche – the 1919 edition with an inscription, dated 12 December 1925, by the Marquise de Villeparisis – it is standing directly beside Grand Duke Wilhelm Ernst’s edition of Goethe’s Works, significantly in coquelicot leather – did he know, I tried to interject, that Unsld had reissued an edition in red goatskin and Feincanvas with the spine stitched at the Lachenmaier bindery in Reutlingen, but I couldn’t get a word in, and settled for a drag from the Rey del Mundo – the place where Proust speaks of the George Sand novels given him by his grandmother, and from this youthful reading during the Easter holidays in Combray the author embarks upon a series of reflections on the relation between novelistic and real experience, touching on that magic we mentioned before, he says more or less – naturally one must refer to the French original – that when we plunge intensely into a book, each of our emotions is multiplied by ten, so that a great work of literature shakes us like a dream, but with far greater clarity than the dreams of nighttime, which last only for fragments of a second in the torpid end-stages of sleep.

Annie Ernaux, Getting Lost

>Sunday 17
Soon, tomorrow, it will be a year since I took off for Moscow, and all that
followed, that thing called destiny, which is nothing but a series of acts whereby we press on in the same direction. To understand the genius of Proust, you must have experienced Albertine Gone. I am truly reliving The Prisoner and Albertine Gone (I like The Fugitive less as a title). No one yet has said, “SB has gone,” but I know that this is what awaits me if I call the embassy or go to Soviet cinema night on September 28. I am in a state close to the one I was in after my mother died. I understand those years of my life, ’58–’59–’60, their unspeakable pain, but not the madness, then, the dreaming of a man— no more than I understand the strength of my attachment to S. Except as a way of getting closer to the return to nothingness, aspiring to primordial fusion with the cosmos..

Jack Kerouac, Some of The Dharma

>Proust and Joyce are slowmotion cameras…

>The delicate spiderwebs of your brain’s arrangements, so Proustian, fine,
rainbowy, shattered by drunkenness?
I’ve been drinking like a fiend; twice in August I passed out like a man
hit over the head; several times in July. I drink to destroy myself---’twere
better to recognize the fickleness of life by constant recollection.

Anne Carson, The Albertine Workout

>Knowledge of other people is unendurable. Japanese kimonos were in style in Paris in the 20's. They had been redesigned for the European market, with less sleeve and more pocket. Albertine keeps all her letters in the pocket of the kimono that she so carelessly tosses over a chair in Marcel's room just before falling asleep. The truth about Albertine is that close. Marcel does not investigate. Knowledge of people is unendurable.

Samuel Beckett, Proust

>It is a tiring style, but it does not tire the mind. The clarity of the phrase is cumulative and explosive. One’s fatigue is a fatigue of the heart, a blood fatigue. One is exhausted and angry after an hour, submerged, dominated by the crest and break of metaphor after metaphor: but never stupefied. The complaint that it is an involved style, full of periphrasis, obscure and impossible to follow, has no foundation whatsoever.

Jean Améry, On Aging

>I may try to find comfort by whispering to myself how anything that now seems to fall to the destruction of time is still preserved by just this same time. What was fulfilling and held me together for a few decades, from Dehmel to Benn, from Hesse to Proust, from Cezanne to Francis Bacon, fulfilled the demand of those days belonging to me and was still pulled on by the wheel of time, even as it was being run over: nothing is ever completely lost. Comfort, a play of the mind. The notion of preservation in destruction is a construction of the philosophy of history without any significance in the field of the existential. To ferret out the passages where traces of Proust run through the work of Nathalie Sarraute is an occupation for literary historians. My Proust, whom I read for the first time in a definite time span, in a space connected only for me with this author, enclosed in a fragrance of being only still to be roused by my own memory-I cannot find it again in the books of Madame Sarraute. As a part of my existence it has been overtaken and left behind by this writer. What remains for me to do? I can try to catch up with myself by taking up Sarraute and with that involvement break the pact of life I once made with Proust.

Flannery O'Connor, Prayer Journal

>Freud, Proust, Lawrence have located love inside the human & there is no need to question their location; however, there is no need either to define love as they do—only as desire, since this precludes Divine Love, which, while it too may be desire, is a different kind of desire—Divine desire—and is outside of man and capable of lifting him up to itself. Man’s desire for God is bedded in his unconscious & seeks to satisfy itself in a passing, fading attachment in its sensuous aspects since it is a poor substitute for what the unconscious is after. The more conscious the desire for God becomes the more successful union with another becomes because the intelligence realizes the relation in its relation to a greater desire & if this intelligence is in both parties the motive power in the desire for God becomes double & gains in becoming God-like.

>The modern man isolated from faith, from raising his desire for God into a conscious desire, is sunk into the position of seeing physical love as an end in itself. Thus his romanticizing it, wallowing in it, & then cynicizing it. Or in the case of the artist like Proust of his realizing that it is the only thing worth life but seeing it without purpose, accidental, and unsatisfying after desire has been fulfilled. Proust’s conception of desire could only be that way since he makes it the highest point of existence—which it is—but with nothing supernatural to end in. It sinks lower & lower in the unconscious, to the very pit of it, which is Hell.

François Mauriac, Proust's Way

>As soon as he feels assured that she has not tried to join a friend at the Trocadero or the Verdurins Marcel himself has no longer any other desire than to be alone. He is no longer hungry for that flesh as soon as he believes no one is stealing it from him and that it is not escaping his desire. Albertine takes a great deal of trouble to hide her betrayals, and she does not under' stand that they are the only thing that hold her lover and that, hardly has he been re assured, when there he is indifferent. The one who has suffered so much because this body belonged to others, now that all that is released to him without sharing it, seems to lose even the instinct of that possession, even at the moment of pleasure itself. To be sure he knows how to steal from that sleeping body a clandestine partial plea^ sure, but the nightly caress is only the appeasement of his suspicions; it takes its stand between the sedative and the soporific. He does not seem to conceive of pleasure as an effort to lose ourselves in the cherished object, to become one with it, and finally to render vain its supreme and involuntary treason of being another than ourselves. Does he try to bring that soul close to him?

>Fortuny's pearls and precious materials are only rude means of making the cage bearable for the poor bird. For want of being able to possess Albertine in her past and her future, in all the intervals of space and time that she has occupied and will occupy, for want of realizng an impossible possession, this lover loses interest in the only possible possession, and sends up that admirable and forlorn cry: "How does any one have the courage to want to live, how can any one make a movement to preserve himself from death in a world where love is provoked only by falsehood, and consists only of our need to see our sufferings appeased by the being who has made us suffer?''

Evelyn Waugh, Letters

>I am reading Proust for the first time. Very poor stuff. I think he was mentally defective. I remember how small I used to feel when people talked about him & didn’t dare admit I couldn't get through him. Well I can get through him now - in English of course - because I can read anything that isn’t about politics. Well the chap was plain barmy. He never tells you the age of the hero and on one page he is being taken to the wc in the Champs Elysées by his nurse & the next page he is going to a brothel. Such a lot of nonsense.

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u/Dengru — 5 days ago

My June Reading Wrap up

Here are my thoughts of what I raed in June:

Private Devotions/Preces Private by Lancelot Andrewes

Lancelot Andrewes was an incredibly influential Bishop and Scholar. He was one of the Caroline Divines. He was one of the leaders in the King James translation of the bible.

This book are his collection of prayers and devotions. They all heavily drawn on scripture, re-arranging thematically resonant scriptures. They also have very interesting enjambment and line breaks Reddit is not capable of rendering. Someone being so incredibly familar with scripture to where their mind can find these thematic and poetic associations, across hundreds of pages, is incredible.

one of my favorites:

>"Take away, o Lord, the veil of my heart, while I read the Scripture.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord; o teach me thy statutes:
give me a word, o Word of the Father:
touch my heart:
enlighten the understandings of my heart"

There is a essay by TS Eliot that was included in this version as a forward. The essay was both insightful to Lancelot, other prominent Anglican figures, and Eliot himself.

For example, where he writes:

>“It is an additional advantage that these sermons are all on the same subject, the Incarnation; they are the Christmas Day sermons preached before King James between 1605 and 1624. And in the sermons preached before King James, himself a theologian, Andrewes was not hampered as he sometimes was in addressing more popular audiences. His erudition had full play, and his erudition is essential to his originality.”

To me, this is very interesting . Its almost arrogant how this clearly is about Eliots feelings about his own writing , and it's reception into the public.

You see it again:

>“when the language of theology itself, under the influence of an undisciplined mysticism of popular philosophy, tends to become a language of tergiversation—Andrewes may seem pedantic and verbal. It is only when we have saturated ourselves in his prose, followed the movement of his thought, that we find his examination of words terminating in the ecstasy of assent. Andrewes takes a word and derives the world from it; squeezing and squeezing the word until it yields a full juice of meaning which we should never have supposed any word to possess. In this process the qualities which we have mentioned, of ordonnance and precision, are exercised.”

This sort of meta thing doesn't go away, but he does have some pretty interesting insights about Andrewes:

>“Andrewes’s emotion is purely contemplative; it is not personal, it is wholly evoked by the object of contemplation, to which it is adequate; his emotions wholly contained in and explained by its object.”

Further on he continues and contrasts Andrewes against John Donne:

>“his sermons, one feels, are a “means of self-expression.” He is constantly finding an object which shall be adequate to his feelings; Andrewes is wholly absorbed in the object and therefore responds with the adequate emotion. Andrewes has the gout pour la vie spirituelle, which is not native to Donne. On the other hand, it would be a great mistake to remember only that Donne was called to the priesthood by King James against his will, and that he accepted a benefice because he had no other way of making a living. Donne had a genuine taste both for theology and for religious emotion; but he belonged to that class of persons, of which there are always one or two examples in the modern world, who seek refuge in religion from the tumults of a strong emotional temperament which can find no complete satisfaction elsewhere.”

This part really jumped out to me because it both continues this dual conversation about writing but also becomes much more nakedly religious. It's such a sharp distinction that could easily be misconstrued. With more context about Eliots beliefs than I fully express here, it is clear he thought "no complete satisfaction elsewhere" was a pretty fundamental. That isn't unique to Donne, but what the world is like.

So then what is the distinction?

In my opinion, essentially, It seems Eliot values something so intimate with itself that, the reader, is pulled out of their subjectivity into it.  For him, if something isn't 'complete' it's a consequence of writers weaknesses.
Eliot famously criticized Hamlet for this exact logic:

>“...probably more people have thought Hamlet a work of art because they found it interesting, than have found it interesting because it is a work of art. It is the "Mona Lisa" of literature"

and:

>“Hamlet, like the sonnets, is full of some stuff that the writer could not drag to light, contemplate, or manipulate into art. And when we search for this feeling we find it, as in the sonnets, very difficult to localize. You cannot' point to it in the speeches...

If you'd like to read more about this, you can here. The full text is linked in that page, also.

These are obviously pretty interesting and controversial remarks but with religion, this becomes much more an understandable distinction to draw, especially when the modern age he revolted against reveled in such ambiguities and passions.

Basically, if you regard Christianity as true, then how you organize yourself in regards to it becomes pretty important. Something being true doesn't really change our status as imperfect, flailing beings, though. But the balance between these things, its something really interesting to reflect on.

From the way he phrased it, it is easy to view Donne and Andrewes on opposite ends of some sort of emotional spectrum, but when you read Preces Private you see the majority of them are of a pretty 'tumultuous' register: 

>''Out of the deep my soul calleth unto Thee,
as a thirsty land unto Thee;
and all my bones
and all that is within me:
Lord, hear my voice"

__

>"There are many lurkingplaces in the mind and many nooks.
You must detect yourself or ever you amend yourself.
A sore unknown waxeth worse and worse and getteth past
cure.
The heart is deceitful above all things:
the heart is deep and full of windings:
the old man is covered up in a thousand wrappings.
Therefore take heed to thyself."

___

>"Prayer is colloquy with God."

__

>"Open Thou mine eyes
and I shall see:
incline my heart
and I shall fervently desire:
straighten my steps
and I shall walk in the way of thy commandments."

___

>"shameful falls,
often relapses,
daily wallowings"

What Donne cannot resolve is also something Andrewes struggled with. In some ways, it's more intense, as the failures are anticipated: even someone of this level of erudition and faith feels they are incapable of really staying unerringly on the path. It positions a world view where Donnes issues are not because of his individual personality, but what people fundamentally are, before whatever individuates them.

So again surely the distinction isn't chaotic emotional tumultuous individual personality and can be better expressed. I think what is really being expressed is deeper Lancelots immersion is. To read these prayers is to be brought into scripture. How he does not need his own words to express himself; how scripture anticipates every aspect of his turmoil, I think is something Eliot is very impressed by on artistic and theological levels (as am I). In terms of, for lack of better term, a role model, Anderewes represents a more appealing figure for Eliots temperament. More disciplined. He over extends that a bit, but its very insightful, his essay.

This sense of finding oneself anticipated by something meaningfully mysterious, with all that entails in terms of faith vs (in Eliots opinion) something ambiguous relating to your fleeting passions.

We see this sentiment expressed by Eliot in the poem Ash Wednesday:

>"Teach us to care and not care
Teach us to sit still
Even among these rocks.
Our Peace in His will
And even among these rocks
Sister, mother
And spirit of the river, spirit of the sea,
Suffer me not to be separated

>And let my cry come unto Thee."

Thinking so much about this increased my understanding and feeling of intimacy with Andrewes, Eliot and Donne.

There are multiple translations of these devotions. Some are 'selections'. This would probably be best for most people. The structure of what Andrewes is doing is something that would be pretty overwhelming and perhaps redundant without familiarity with Book of Common Prayer and such practices.
The essay by TS Eliot referenced is often paired general anthologies of his prose writings.

___

Pierre by Herman Melville

One of the strongest quotes from it to me was:

>Silence is the general consecration of the universe. Silence is the invisible laying on of the Divine Pontiff's hands upon the world. Silence is at once the most harmless and the most awful thing in all nature. It speaks of the Reserved Forces of Fate. Silence is the only Voice of our God. Nor is this so august Silence confined to things simply touching or grand.
Like the air, Silence permeates all things...

This is a sentiment repeated throughout Melville. One of his best renderings of it.

Something that has struck me lately about Melville is he sits in an interesting spot in regards to how he handles this silence.

He doesn't really dwell so much contradictions of man in terms of like vice or such. Passionate stuff like that is generally absent from Melville. When you compare him to Dostoyevsky, who has so much to say about these exact things.
Additionally, Melville despite living through Great awakenings and clearly understanding the power of more Methodist and charismatic preaching (I'm thinking of Father Mapple from Moby Dick) doesn't really write about that moment of elevated spirituality. In general, he comes off as suspicious of that sort of thing. Direct, unmediated contact with God.
Yet, you get the idea that God's Silence is the absolute most significant thing to Melville, but what exactly would happen if there was some contact? What would change? How long would that change remain? What would it look like?

Additionally, Melvilles writings specifically revolve how things constantly change; he frequently questions if anything from the past can re emerge after said changes. Not so much as lionizing the past, but any desire to pull something from the past exposes some sort of fault in the present. He traveled quite a lot and saw many beautiful displays in nature, but doesn't really revere them are see them entirely as immations of God.

For instance, Here you can read on Melvilles impressions of the Pyramids.

So, when Melville writes "Silence is at once the most harmless and the most awful thing in all nature." I am really struck by the paradox of it. How essentially unresolvable this was for him because he's rejecting all other things except an answer. Whatever would satisfy him was not within himself, nature, or the structure of society.

There is a fundamental loneliness that is the issue, I think. That comes through very strongly reading:

>"... his very soul was forced to wear a mask..."

___

>"When the substance is gone, men to cling to the shadow."

___

>"Deep, deep, and still deep and deeper must we go, if we would find out the heart of a man descending into which is as descending a spiral stair in a shaft, without any end, and where that endlessness is only concealed by the spiralness of the stair, and the blackness of the shaft."

and:

>

>"I can not identify that thing which is called happiness; that thing whose token is a laugh, or a smile, or a silent serenity on the lip. I may have been happy, but it is not in my conscious memory now. Nor do I feel a longing for it, as though I had never had it; my spirit seeks different food from happiness; for I think I have a suspicion of what it is."

Experimenting with an Amen by RS Thomas

Part of why I love RS Thomas, is how he echoes this mindset of Melville and drills into. If the abscence is the prescence and Silence actually is God, what does this feel like? Because sounds it's quite a torturous thing.

Here, from the poem Questions:

>The priest lies down alone
face to face with the darkness
that is the nothing from which nothing
comes. ‘Love’ he protests, ‘love’
in spiritual copulation
with a non-body, hearing the echoes
dying away, languishing under the owl’s curse.

>What is a bed for? Is there no repose
in the small hours? No proofing of sleep’s
stuff against the fretting of stars, thoughts?
Tell me, then, after the night’s toil
of loving or praying, is there nothing
to do but to rise tired and be made
away with, yawning, into the day’s dream?

I tend to view RS Thomas through this sort of Melville logic. Here's someone who's made much more definitive efforts to be intimate with and sensitive to this Silence, but the result is quite similar. Fundamentally, he can't see darkness as meaningless. Additionally, if it were meaningless, it would not be liberating.

Another one:

>God, it is not your reflections
we seek,wonderful as they are
 in the live fibre; it is the possibility 
of your presence at the cone’s
 point towards which we soar 
in hope to arrive at the still
 centre, where love operates
 on all those frequencies
 that are set up by the spinning
 of two minds, the one on the other.

 I once read an interesting analysis about Thomas Hardys poetry by Delmore Schwartz. It also strongly appplies to RS Thomas and Melville:

>It is the belief and disbelief in Christ’s resurrection which not only make this poem possible, but make its details so moving. They are not only moving; the weary wain which plods forward heavily and the dead men in the graveyard are envisaged fully as particular things and yet become significant of the whole experience of suffering and evil just because the belief exists for Hardy and provides a light which makes these particular things symbols. Without the belief, it is only another rainy morning in March or April. In passing, it should be noted that both belief and disbelief are necessary; the belief is necessary to the disbelief. And both are responsible here as elsewhere for that quality of language..

This sort of belief is very essential to Melville and Thomas, I think.

You Don't Love Yourself by Nathalie Sarraute

This one is the hardest to talk about. Don't see any discussions about this online.

It's a long experimental piece on what happens after an unnamed person is told "You don't love yourself". The following 200 or so pages interrogate, reel from and process this.

Some of the stand out quotes from it:

>“But it must be delightful to love oneself... Is there any sort of love that is more reliable, more constant, comforting, than that.”

This one in particular really brought to mind Beckett. There is a section in Waiting for Godot very much of this mind. Sarraute and Beckett were friends. She gave refuge to him during WW2, even. The quote:

>“I think I shall get there, I shall rediscover that
sensation of Happiness, now, this moment, while I’m searching... I’m putting everything I’ve got into it... I’d give anything to experience it... I’m going to get it... I’ve got it... no, I haven’t got it... this isn’t it... not Happiness…”

What's also interesting,a natural consideration, hearing ““I love you’’ doesn't occur until half though the novel. Which is very fitting.

My favorite part was this:

>“But now we feel really wounded... the wound is
becoming deeper... enlarged... it hurts... Can’t we try to get another answer?
Why be content with that one?

>Perpetually menaced... We had to keep a constant
watch on it, keep it under surveillance... The thing that had always been there has disappeared, perhaps it’s been moved, no, it’s been removed, it’s been annihilated, and there, there’s a vacuum in its place now, but here, it’s cracked, it’s fissured, torn...
And we are cracked, fissured, torn... In an instant we have left all that, and how much
more than that—we could go on describing it for ever— we have left it behind us...
We’ve been dragged out of it, not proud of having
lived in it, rather ashamed of having been so softened, submissive, scared.

I don't generally to say things are too long (in more than one context), but this went on a bit more than it needed to. I first started reading this after quite a challenging break up, so it was incredibly resonant. But even disposed to the subject matter and writer I got a bit exhausted toward the end. That isn't to say it actually dips in quality. For example, that last block is near the end. It is just somewhat tiring. If i'm not mistaken, this is her third longest novel. I do very much recommend it. Pretty unique experience. I would recommend reading it faster than I did. Maybe, as fast as you can, so it washes over more.

The Falcon and The Foe by AJ Truman

Not as much to say. I enjoyed it. Who doesn't like having sex in the woods? Especially hot bears. Hell yeah. This is my second book by this author. I like the cover.

u/Dengru — 8 days ago

Inaugural Recommendation Thread

This is the thread where you can make recommendations. As discussed here, this is what we'll be doing going forward, along with some other changes. Largely, this is to promote activity outside of recommendations, which have been notably dominant on this forum. Any new recommendation threads after this post was made will be deleted. If you have something to say about the aforementioned forums changes, the state of Sub thread is still active, still responding to people there; the thread is pinned to top of forum and a link has been posted here.

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u/Dengru — 25 days ago

State of Sub/Feedback thread

There have been lots of comments on the year about a perceived drop in quality in the forum. A repeatedly announced desire for months about the need for stronger "gatekeeping". I've reflected a lot on this and have a lot to say, although this thread isn't only about what I think.

 I bring these up not to defend our moderating practices.. But I do think, overall, the  result  people expect from 'Gatekeeping' wouldn't  just be solved by pushing people out, or even more aggressively deleting threads (and a lot are, already). It's often framed that people exterior in some way are trespassing diluting something. It is more complicated than that. To me, this is the recurring theme but it's not clear actually what people value and feel is being loss. Hopefully, this thread acts a good place for everyone to share what they feel are the issues and what can address them, as a community.

I have some questions to help guide the discussion..

So, here are the questions with my answers following.

  • What exactly do you like about rsbc?
  • Is the forum declining?  Why is that and what do you think would help fix it?
  •   What exactly do people think should be here? What is the vibe?
  • Have you contributed these things;  would you consider contributing more of what you want to see?

 

My answer: Vibrant and diverse community with passionate readers.

A good example is the  Moby Dick Read-along. It was active and stimulating.

While We-belong-dead, who has since deleted that account obviously,  created  these wonderful threads with pictures and talking-points laid out. The discussion was pretty lovely, week to week.   I found myself thinking of what I was gonna say all week. Throughout, it would lead on different tangents, research.  So many different perspectives, things I had never thought before, even with being pretty familiar with Moby Dick.

It was a really fulfilling experience that I still reflect on.  There’s also just the sheer pleasure of someone caring about what I have to say and caring about what they say, using what I know to make things more clear. That sort of mutual and sustained investment is not very common on the internet.

In addition to that thread, I've been exposed to different books and ideas I would not have encountered elsewhere. It is impressive how well-read and insightful some people are here.  I appreciate the seemingly higher average age (in my observation of the more active posters)  in this community along with a notable amount of non-anglophones, too. Notably high number of prominent women, too.

Second question:

  • Is the forum declining?  Why is that and what do you think would help fix it?

In regards to fixing it, something that’s important to consider is that Reddit is social media.  As we all know, social media does not really demand a lot from you and really lulls you into hours of scrolling. It puts you into a bad mood. So, anytime you are here, unless there is some intent, it very easily becomes that.  Unlike a physical location, where we get into a certain headspace to go to,  this forum falls within the regular rhythm of our lives.  After your job, school or whatever.. throughout the various frustrations and joys of your day-to-day life, do you feel like posting something?
For someone's personal feed on social media, ‘liking’ or even engaging with a thing with an action taken, feeds more of that to you.  Additionally,   ‘disliking’ it temporarily removes it and similar things; in this process, you curate your algorithm. So perhaps, on some level,  there's this idea of "because no one's saying this is bad, more of this is coming"  and "I'm doing something good, by saying this doesn't belong here" is tantamount to pressing a dislike button, which has a notable effect.  It doesn’t really accomplish anything like that.. Rsbc is  not someone's personal feed and  it is not a magazine( in the sense that it’s a product actively designed and the people can be replaced). 

At the same time Reddit is structurally designed against long-term cohesion (as all social media essentially is). The search features are terrible, on Reddit.  I say all this to point out that, although I've used the word forum a lot, this is not a forum: this is reddit. And just as the same you have to be realistic and to what sort of environment  that twitter cultivates, the same applies here.  On forums, we had access to multiple sections such as general discussions, off-topic, etc which housed threads accordingly.  Another thing  very significant was the ability to bump threads. Reddit does not bump a thread to the top of the page nor  notify all users when a reply has been posted, to drive them back into it. It’s clearly designed around constantly creating new  threads. Everything that allowed a forum in the 00’s and 90s to maintain some identity (including the naturally small user count) are deliberately absent here.
  So, really to have something good, it needs to constantly be maintained. It is not enough to “gatekeep” in the sense of calling out other users or posts. We all need to share things that cultivate the vibe we wish to see, rather than treating it as a feed that can be  influenced through dislikes, or like magazine,

  • With all this in mind, there are a few coming changes

Recommendations  have been a pretty common complaint. Starting next week, they will  be contained to a thread. Perhaps that can change in some manner in the  future. But the vibe around here seems to be that,at least initially,  people want a hard-reset of it it?

Posts from now on  need to be more than just the title. Write something in the body, give the conversation more than just a slight prompt. Express yourself.

Additionally,  an attempt to push against the lack of focus and continuity reddit imposes, there will occasionally be  sticked threads to spark more focused conversation.   Stuff like this.  Here is  another example. But again these really only thrive when people respond.. Again, can change according to community response and such. Feedback desired and appreciated.

Considering that one of the most common complaints, the huge amount of recommendations, is being addressed  it leads to the last question:

  •   What exactly do people think should be here? What is the vibe?

For this, I think it's important to consider how literature is kinda unique in comparison to, say, movies, which have million dollar budgets just for advertisement.   You can discuss not just the movie itself but the director, cast, etc. Awards seasons, 4k remasterings, interviews, screenings it goes on and on.  Basically, movies, sports and such things create daily things to talk about, on their own, which is  the expectation of social media: that something interesting will be there every time you choose to look at it.   Literature is quite different. There isn’t really anything driving a day-to-day discussion in that same sense.  It is not easy to coordinate a vibe around literature, when everyone is on a different page, reacting to different things. There are just so many books. Even the most famous ones, do you really know what they are? If you haven't seen cape fear, you essentially know what its about and can say something about it (the acting, the cultural impact, director, etc). But what about Moby Dick? It's famous of course. But what do you say about something you haven't read?
Not that contemporary literature needs to drive discussion, it's even more notable how differently people are attuned to recent and upcoming movie releases in comparison to literature. All this means: It is up to the community to continually push things out.  The ratio of people who post vs just reply or lurk needs to be higher. The recommendation threads are very prominent, but they are not literally blocking anything. Something else better won't just appear (and consistently  reappear) without effort.

One thing I've realized is that often people say "the discussions used to be better here" they mean "I used to read such interesting things here".  Within the above mentioned limitations,   reading something without replying   is very different from actively participating, or, better yet, creating said discussions. I think more than anything, this is the true issue here, which circles back to Gatekeeping:    The essence of something isn't maintained  just by  keeping people out. It’s not that it’s wrong to note “this isn’t the vibe”, but that alone doesn’t really improve anything.  Deleting a thread doesn't immediately  make people post something better, it just removes those threads. Whatever you desire to be here, needs to be put here by   What actually does help tremendously is to post things that  cultivate the  desired  vibe.  

 Some of you might disagree with me and that there has been a clear decline .  A good example are these comments. Although I will only link those two, this sentiment expressed by a lot of people, but I don't think that's really representative of the situation.    Interestingly if you actually look at the recommendations, almost all of them are pretty cool, such as  Rikki Ducornet, Violette Leduc, Hilda Hilst, Izumi Suzuki, Nelly Arcan and many others.  This is kinda how i've always seen the recommendation threads play out. A person asks something and you get a smattering of recommendations For sure these threads have gotten annoying, and turned into something else, as this thread expressed very well.   It’s just that, although changes to address how prominent recommendations are coming, it is important to realize  this dynamic has always been here. So it's not really returning to how things were before, it is doing something almost entirely new.

  If you don't believe me,  well, you can see for yourself (it will load soon at the bottom). This community started  May 27, 2021. If you look at the thing, you can see initially it was just read-a-longs and recommendations.  Essentially, the same pattern as you see today: Recommendation threads and more off-the-cuff So, I just  read this,  and  What do you think of so & so?   posts getting the most engagement. Till 2021 to 2023, that's basically what the vibe was.

Early  Feb to  March 2024 is when posting memes, Twitter ragebait and  images of  books/bookshelves  reached a peak and were turned off later that month. If you don't recall,  or weren't present, this was the initial issue within the community.  The following month  is when recommendations really  started to become prominent not just in how frequent they were, but how they seemed incredibly specific, almost stylized.  This was quite a notable shift, that would kind of develop over time.  An interesting thread from about a year later about this phenomena, but the “great discussions” I think people are generally referencing occur concurrently with this pivot to recommendation spam.  July 2024 is when the forum was private for a couple of months.

I guess one of the main takeaways, there is nothing occurring in those years that is like, out of this world, once in life, unrepeatable. Furthermore, the more notable and ‘good’ posters generally appeared in 2023-24 (and many strong ones have arrived in 2025) and are still active.  Essentially, it remains up to us to continually create the atmosphere we desire. Nothing is actually as good as you remember; everything changes, etc etc. To continue to have the community we all like, whatever that is, we all have to contribute. Even in cases of just asking someone to elaborate on an interesting comment can go a long way. Even better, instead of asking someone like “what do you like about X?”  give a more leading question, to get them rolling.  A discussion after all is a back and forth. We’re all here to have a good time, so let's really get out of our shells.   I have gotten a lot of pleasure here over the years and look forward to more.

If you've read all that, thank you.  Interested to hear everyone's thoughts. Again, the questions  for  you:

  • What exactly do you like about rsbc?
  • Is the forum declining?  Why is that and what do you think would help fix it?
  •   What exactly do people think should be here? What is the vibe?
  • Have you contributed these things;  would you consider contributing more of what you want to see?

 

reddit.com
u/Dengru — 1 month ago

Psalms Translations by David R. Slavitt

David R. Slavitt was a writer, poet and translator. I am big fan of his translations, they tend to have a pretty strong energy to them.

Most relevant to this post, he has translated the Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, a collection of "minor prophets" in "The Book of the Twelve Prophets and also "Sixty-One Psalms of David", which is where the below quotes will be drawn from.

To learn more of Slavitt, here is an obituary from the New York Times.

Being that today is Pentecost Sunday, I thought it would be nice to share some of these. Again, Slavitt's translations are very warm and striking. They aren't always one-to-one translations. Moreso flourishes, inspirations. Strongly recommended for interested in reading literary translations of scripture.

6

>In righteous anger, Lord, do not
chastise me, but be gracious to
a man in torment. What I've got
is pain that goes from the bone right through
to the soul. You are my only cure.
How long, O Lord, can I endure?

>Deliver me, dear Lord, and save
my life not for my sake but Yours.
There is only silence in the grave:
no chorus of praise and gratitude pours
from the house of the dead. All night I weep
in woe and longing, never sleep,
but toss and turn while my tears soak
my pillow sodden. My eyes are red . . .
But my complaint may yet provoke
the Lords attention, so those who'd shed
my blood may learn to fear His name
and turn away their heads in shame.

39

>I will behave myself and watch
my tongue, whenever I am in
the presence of some evil wretch,
lest it betray me into sin.

>Let me not wish him ill, let me
keep quiet, even though I see
him thrive and prosper. Let me not
compare what he and I have got.
My heart's banked embers smoulder, then
will blaze up on occasion. When
this happens I turn to God to seek
His help. I feel abandoned, weak, afraid.
And then I pray: "Lord, you
have given me an inch or two,
but tell me how long is my span,
or rather how short. What is a man?
No more than a puff of wind? And is
the wealth and power he thinks is his
a shadow merely? Will a gust
of the breeze disperse it like all dust?
My hope — what hope I have, O Lord
must be in You, and I turn toward
my God for protection. Idiots, knaves,
insult me. I am mute. God saves
me anyway, forgives my many
faults He has corrected, when He
acted as strict parents should
who'd make their children wise and good.
Jehovah, hear the fervent prayer
of a nomad in dry desert air.
Over the endless lifeless dunes
my voice resounds in plaintive tunes
my father's fathers sang. We're here
for only a moment. Lord, give ear

51

>Mercy, Lord, have mercy! Show
how great Your love can be. My sin
forgive, and again forgive, although
transgression is what I wallow in.
Against Your laws and You, I have
offended mightily. You are right
to turn away from me, but save
one who adores Your name, despite
my failings and corruption. I,
conceived in sin and thus brought forth,
dream nonetheless of purity.
Remind me of my spirits worth.
Purge me with hyssop, and asperse
my soul to the whiteness of new snow
and hear as blessings every curse
I've uttered. Iniquitous, I know,
I'm not yet irredeemable. Make
me clean, revive my hopes, uphold
me for Your greater glory's sake.
My transformation may be told
among transgressors, who will turn
to You, as I did. I shall sing
Your praise. The flesh of sheep may burn,
but better by far is the offering
of a broken spirit, healed and restored
to what it always should have been,
obedient to Your holy word
contrite, and cleansed of every sin.

>Likewise, repair Mount Zion, too;
rebuild once more Jerusalem.
What You have done for me, then do
for Abraham s children — all of them.

63

>O God, you are my God! My whole
being longs for You. My soul
thirsts, and my flesh faints in yearning.
I am in a desert, dry and burning,
and in the distance, see a shimmer . . .
Mirage? Oasis? It is a glimmer
of what Your love is like. Sunstruck,
I stand erect to bless my luck.
In prayer I shall raise my outstretched hands
to praise Your name to the endless sands.

>My soul reclines at a banquet table,
happy and sated, where I am able
to thank and bless You with my dry
and cracked lips. Or else I stretch out late,
as if in bed to meditate
how in the darkness You will keep
watch and protect me as I sleep.

>My lids grow heavy and close, but I
continue, in dreams, to magnify
and sanctify my God. But those
who look to hurt me, or suppose
I am defenseless, let them be brought
abruptly low, as You know they ought.
Let them become the jackals' prey.
Stop up their lying mouths, I say
who shall testify to the endless glory
of God and recite His splendid story.

77

>My cries of pain disturb the gloom
of night: I stretch forth an upturned palm
to a pitying God who I assume
attends not only to prayer and psalm

>but inarticulate whimper and groan
or to those with sufferings so acute
that they are altogether mute,
desperate, beleaguered, bereft, and alone.

>Long ago, in happier days,
I lived in the Lord and with Him, but He
has averted His unblinking gaze
and forgotten what He promised me.

>It cannot be, and yet it is
precisely so: His river of
compassion has run dry; in His
wrath He now withholds His love.

>I will turn my thoughts to bygone days
to His holy works of word and deed,
and perseverate my songs of praise
for having, in our times of need,

>redeemed the sons of Jacob. Wave
upon wave breaks on the shore. The wind
howls. The thunder crashes. Save
your people, God, though we have sinned.

>Calm the gales and bid the sea
subside and part for us again.
Moses and Aaron's desperate men
and women You saved. O God, save me.

88

>O Lord, I call on You by day
and through the night. Hear what I say.
Let my groans and prayers arise
to You. Give ear to one who dies,
feeling his end upon him. It
is giddy here at the yawning pit.
My knees are weak; all strength is gone,
like corpses they heap dirt upon
and leave to moulder in their graves.
Your anger overwhelms me. Waves
break over me: I cannot draw
a breath. I founder, pitch, and yaw.
My friends desert me as I waste
away — they cant conceal distaste
and have exhausted pity. I
call out to You, my God. I cry
in fear and desperation. Do
the shades of the dead still pray to You?

>Do breathless voices whisper out
of Sheol and Abaddon devout
blessings upon Your name? Do they
remember language and how to pray?
All night, like a small child, IVe cried
to You in need, and yet You hide,
as if my helplessness and fear
were somehow pleasing to Your ear.
I lie in darkness and feel my life
ebbing away, as children, wife,
and friends near me dissolve — as I
shall do, when, presently, I die.

144

>I bless the Lord who is my rock,
who hardens me and trains me for
the ordeal I must face, the shock
of combat in the coming war.
He is my protecting shield
and ally on the battlefield.
What is a man, O Lord, that You
look down on? He is like a breath;
his days are the fleeting shadows You
scarcely notice before his death.
Nevertheless, the heavens take
account of us, for Your name's sake.

>You touch the mountain top with fire.
Lightning and thunder roll through the skies
for men to fear, if they cannot admire.
Save me from unbelievers' lies.
me, O God, and with Your hand
keep me from drowning. Bring me to land

>and I will sing a new paean
in praise of You.
My harp will ring to celebrate Your triumphs. On
deliverance and reckoning
I shall endeavor to rhapsodize.
Those who do evil and utter lies

>will gnash their teeth to hear me. You
will bless us with prosperity:
our sons will thrive and daughters, too;
our herds and flocks will multiply.
With glistening eyes, we shall turn towards
Your heaven, rejoicing to be the Lord's.

150

>Hallelujah! Praise God, you
in His earthly temple. Angels, too,
in their heavenly congregation, praise
His might and the justice of His ways.
Praise Him for what he does and is.
Praise with the trumpets' fanfares His
magnificence. With harp and lyre
praise! In your song and dance, admire
and praise! With cymbal and snare drum,
with every twangle, flourish and thrum,
praise Him. And let each living thing
praise Him with every breath and sing:
Hallelujah!

u/Dengru — 1 month ago

The Journal begins in the late 40's and ends in the early 80's. The quality of writing within is very high. Like, approaching the level of writers primarily known for this style such as Annie Ernaux, Michel Leiris and Witold Gombrowicz. Considering that these Journals were first published in 1991, it's surprising that within this span they haven't formed a higher reputation, something to be read even without an interest in Cheevers novels/short stories. Similar to how Kafka's Diaries are treated.

In addition to his sexuality, depression, family, the world as it changes around him, and such things, Cheever has quite a few passages commenting on his own writing and others. In general, he is quite negative about his own writing, but pretty aware of the strengths of contemporaries and influences, along with the wider context of their style or notoriety in general. Here are some of the most interesting comments:

Katherine Anne Porter

>So here is the day. What do you make of it? A brilliant morning, the light dealt out over the mountainous banks of the river. Cool. As I eat breakfast on the porch, my coffee smokes, the china cup is cold to touch. Last night I read Katherine Anne. How well she catches the essence of herself, the wit, the didactic style, the attractions of elegance. She fastens her slippers, shakes out the folds of her silvery dress, and fastens the belt as she goes out on a note of asperity and command. It is highly feminine, but a solid style. In some of the emotional scenes she strikes with exceptional accuracy that balance between the ritard of observation and the flow of feeling.

Truman Capote

>Lunch at the Plaza. Truman Capote is in the men’s bar. His bangs are dyed yellow, his voice is girlish, his laughter is baritone, and he seems to be a conspicuous male cocotte. This must take some doing, but on the other hand it must be a very limited way of moving through life. He seems to excite more curiosity than intolerance. Almost everyone these days drinks a special brand of gin— Beefeater, House of Lords, Lamplighter—and vodka. I hear the orders come over the bar. The bartender calls to a handsome Italian waiter and they disappear into a broom closet, to straighten out their racetrack bets, I hope. But to someone familiar with a rigorous and a simple way of life these scenes might seem decadent and final, like those lavish and vulgar death throes of the Roman Empire that we see in the movies.

Jack Kerouac

>My first feelings about the Kerouac book were: that it was not good; that most of its accents or effects were derived from some of the real explorers, like Saul; and that the apocalyptic imagery was not good enough—was never lighted by true talent, or deep feeling, vision. It pleased me to catch him at a disadvantage, to sum up the facts, which could reflect on my lack of innocence. Here is a man of thirty who lives with his hard-working mother, cooks supper for her when she gets home from the store, has a shabby affair with a poor Negress—who knows so little about herself that she is easy prey— wrestles, very suspiciously, with his pals, weeps in a train yard where his mother’s image appears to him, discovers that he is deceived, and writes a book. The style has the advantages, to make a rough comparison, of abstract painting. When we give up lucidity we have, from time to time, the power of broader associations. Life is chaotic, and so we can state this in chaotic terms. In trying to catch him at a disadvantage, I find him vulgar, meaning perhaps unsophisticated—his sexual identity, his prowess, is not much. He is a writer and wants to be a famous writer, a rich writer, and a successful writer, but the question of excellence never seems to cross his mind. The question of the greatest depth of feeling, of speaking with the greatest urgency. My life is very different from what he describes. There is almost no point where our emotions and affairs correspond. I am most deeply and continuously involved in the love of my wife and my children. It is my passion to present to my children the opportunity of life. That this love, this passion, has not reformed my nature is well known. But there is some wonderful seriousness to the business of living, and one is not exempted by being a poet. You have to take some precautions with your health. You have to manage your money intelligently and respect your emotional obligations. There is another world—I see this—there is chaos, and we are suspended above it by a thread. But the thread holds. People who seek, who are driven to seek, love in urinals, do not deserve the best of our attention. They will be forgiven, and, anyhow, sometimes they are not seeking love; they are seeking a means to express their hatred and suspicion of the world. Sometimes.

Ernest Hemingway

>The dog days go on. I read the Hemingway book. This arouses those mixed feelings we endure when some intact part of adolescence clashes with the men we have become. When I was a young man, my absorption in his work was complete. I imitated his person and his style. He writes with the galvanic distortion that gives the illusion of a particular vision; that is, he breaks and reforms the habitual rhythms of introspection. I think I think his remarks about Scott’s cock are in bad taste, as may be the quarrel between Stein and her friend. I am for some reason embarrassed by his references to walking home on the dry snow and making love.

____

>Hemingway shot himself yesterday morning. There was a great man. I remember walking down a street in Boston after reading a book of his, and finding the color of the sky, the faces of strangers, and the smells of the city heightened and dramatized. The most important thing he did for me was to legitimatize manly courage, a quality that I had heard, until I came on his work, extolled by Scoutmasters and others who made it seem a fraud. He put down an immense vision of love and friendship, swallows and the sound of rain. There was never, in my time, anyone to compare with him.

____

>A story by Hemingway, most of which involves a young man’s four-hour fight with a thousand-pound broadbill. Just as they try to gaff the catch the line breaks. There is courage, endurance, and blood, and the young man’s character is formed in the rigors of the contest. There is the old four-stress cadence—“We lived that year in a house on a hill”—sometimes beautiful and sometimes monotonous. I remain mystified by his suicide.

Vladimir Nabokov

>I open Nabokov and am charmed by this spectrum of ambiguities, this marvellous atmosphere of untruth; and I am interested in his methods and find them very sympathetic, but his imagery—the shadow of a magician against a shimmery curtain, and all those sugared violets—is not mine. The house I was raised in had its charms, but my father hung his underwear from a nail he had driven into the back of the bathroom door, and while I know something about the Riviera I am not a Russian aristocrat polished in Paris. My prose style will always be to a degree matter-of-fact.

Norman Mailer

>Very pleased and excited by Mailer’s book “The Naked and the Dead.” Impressed particularly with its size. Despaired, while reading it, of my own confined talents. I seem, with my autumn roses and my winter twilights, not to be in the big league. Particularly impressed with his description of one man, an Italian, watching Red, an old soldier, and thinking first, This man is comical; then, This man is brave and knowing; then that this man is stupid, reflecting perfectly, clearly a responsive and immature spirit.

____

>Read “The Deer Park” and tossed it into the fire. Much better than most of what I’ve been reading, although I think he imitates Saul or I imitate Saul or he imitates me. I have written first-person slang long before “Augie March” appeared and I’m not sure who began it but there has been enough of this carefree fellow. Of the principal character Elena, I know only that she is sloppy and depraved. This is not enough. I don’t necessarily hold with my kind of old-fashioned fiction, but if you throw it out you have to pick up something else. The candor does not concern me, but I sometimes wonder where he stands—as a participant or as a voyeur. There is this danger. The climactic writing seems to me not eloquent enough. But he seems to me an estimable man.

Saul Bellow

>Dec. 5th. Partly at my wife’s suggestion I’ve given the Saul Bellow novel a thorough reading. Here is the blend of French and Russian that I like, the cockroach and the peeling wallpaper described with precision and loathing. The principal force of the work I think is poetic. Some of it (“I stand upon bones,” etc.) is bad poetry. I think some of it is very good. I have always been pleased with light and I am always pleased with descriptions of it. Through the desperate choices of my own unhappy mind I have developed, and struggled to discard, a detailed method, but I find Bellow’s detail impressive. It comes back to trying to find justification for the sentiment, carnality, and melodrama in my own work.

__

>Every time I read a review of Saul Bellow I get the heaves. Oh this big, wild, rowdy country, full of whores and prizefighters, and here I am stuck with an old river in the twilight and the deterioration of the middle-aged businessman.

Philip Roth

>I have a drink, go to meet Philip Roth at the station with the two dogs on leads. He is unmistakable, and I give him an Army whoop from the top of the stairs. Young, supple, gifted, intelligent, he has the young man’s air of regarding most things as if they generated an intolerable heat. I don’t mean fastidiousness, but he holds his head back from his plate of roast beef as if it were a conflagration. He is divorced from a girl I thought delectable. “She won’t even give me back my ice skates.” The conversation hews to a sexual line—cock and balls, Genet, Rechy—but he speaks, I think, with grace, subtlety, wit.

___

>I read Roth’s continued accounts of jacking off in Jersey and elsewhere, and there is something intensely interesting about the three-finger squeeze, the full-fisted yank, the four-hundred-stroke orgasm, etc. His accounts of his youth are a universe apart from my limpid record of an artistic aunt and a cousin who played Beethoven. My parents were not Jewish, and our house was large and well appointed. In self-defense, and there is much of that in my thinking, I observe how my curiosity leaps, but that my best interest soon lags. F., sitting in the front row of a vaudeville show, noticed that the man beside him was yanking his prick. F. asked politely what he was doing, and the man explained that if you pulled it long enough white stuff squirted out of the end, and you had a wonderful feeling. F. went home and gave it a try and told me about it at school. Lying in bed that night I jacked off while listening to a philosophical radio commentator. The orgasm was racking; my remorse was crushing. I felt that I had betrayed the fatherly voice on the radio. F. and I used to pull one another off in theatres, rub one another off in the golf club shower. One rainy day at camp when the administration had broken down and we had nothing to do we all doubled up in bed. I first got an Irishman named Burke with a big prick and a very fatherly embrace. Then I switched over to F. for the second trip, but when we had come we dressed and, standing in the rain outside the tent, decided to swear off jerking off. I don’t remember how long this resolve lasted, but my jacking off was mostly a genuine extension of love. Roth is always alone, and there is never any question in his mind about his maleness, although he does say that he missed being a faggot by luck. So I come back to the bitter mystery, bitter and legitimate. I claim to enjoy some invincible maleness, and if I am mistaken I will stick to my claim. But I am frightened of colorlessness, the thought of being a homosexual terrifies me, and I am frightened and ashamed to recall that G. sucked me off, that P. doesn’t want to marry and have sons and a home, and I flatly deny that mine was a guise of sexual cowardice—that I didn’t have the courage to pit my homosexual instinct against the censure of the world. I didn’t find the world that contemptible.

u/Dengru — 2 months ago

Great Performance by Harold Pinter. In a play about the regret and loneliness of an older man, Pinters voice and presence ads quite a lot of to the performance. He would die a year later, at 78 years old.

A part that stands out to me:

>The new light above my table is a great improvement. With all this darkness round me I feel less alone. In a way.I love to get up and move about in it, then back here to ... me. Krapp.
The grain, now what I wonder do I mean by that, I mean . . . I suppose I mean those things worth having when all the dust has-when all my dust has settled.
I close my eyes and try and imagine them.
Extraordinary silence this evening, I strain my ears and do not hear a sound. Old Miss McGlome always sings at this hour. But not tonight. Songs of her girlhood , she says. Hard to think of her as a girl. Wonderful woman though. Connaught, I fancy. Shall I sing when I am her age, if I ever am? No. Did I sing as a boy? No. Did I ever sing? No.

Also this part:

>My face in her breasts. and my hand on her. We lay there without moving. But under us all moved, and moved us, gently, up and down, and from side to side. Past midnight. Never knew such silence. The earth might be uninhabited. Here I end [KRAPP switches off, winds tape back, switches on again. ] -upper lake, with the punt, bathed off the bank, then pushed out into the stream and drifted. She lay stretched out on the floorboards with her hands under her head and her eyes closed . Sun blazing down, bit of a breeze, water nice and lively. I noticed a scratch on her thigh and asked her how she came by it. Picking gooseberries, she said. I said again I thought it was hopeless and no good going on and she agreed, without opening her eyes. I asked her to look at me and after a few moments--after a few moments she did , but the eyes just slits, because of the glare. I bent over her to get them in the shadow and they opened. Let me in. We drifted in among the flags and stuck . The way they went down, sighing, before the stem! I lay down across her with my face in her breasts and my hand on her. We lay there without moving. But under us all moved , and moved us, gently, up and down , and from side to side. Past midnight. Never knew-

u/Dengru — 2 months ago