u/ElectionNecessary966

Loads of arguments about what the definition of free will is on here. But with plenty of compatibilists rejecting basic desert (retributive punishment, and deep desert, eg "they deserve.....") their position seems exactly the same as many hard incompatibilists, the only difference is literally semantics in these cases.

The divide is compatibilists who believe their definition of free will is enough to ground basic desert.

For those who do, what's your justification?

I'm not asking if people make choices although I'm sure this thread will end up as if I did.

I'm asking what bridges the gap from "the organism acted according to its nature" to "therefore the person deeply deserves blame/praise in the basic desert sense?"

Your mind is like a meeting taking place in a room.

Different processes are the people in the meeting - eg impulses, fears, desires, habits, memories, values etc etc

One part argues for comfort and another for discipline, another focuses on consequences, another remembers past regret etc.

I think most people believe there's a seperate "self" also sitting in the room - listening to all of this and then making the final call.

But I'd argue there is no seperate listener inside the meeting at all - the self is the meeting.

The conscious experience of being "me" is what it feels like when all of these processes are integrated into a single perspective.

Multiple processes are attempting to pull behaviour in different directions - which makes deliberation feel effortful. When a decision is finally made consciousness experiences "I decided."

So you experience the outcome of the meeting from the inside, but you don't stand outside the meeting designing every participant, assigning motivational strengths, or choosing which arguments feel most persuasive in that moment.

Has anyone watched Craig Biddles interview with Kevin Mitchell?

https://youtu.be/VLpCz-NE\_rA?si=hesFsUUwh3gN4UAM

The biggest problem I have is the constant sliding between "you" phenomenologically, ie "I weigh reasons," and then "you" as the whole organism when pressed on it.

It feels like he's trying to balance the neuroscience with almost agent causal free will. I'm sure he'd identify as some kind of emergence compatibilist, but it's like he tries to sell it almost as libertarian free will.

Granted when pressed his position clearly collapses into compatibilism, and he does have some good points, but often attacks a strawman of the free will skeptic position.

And Craig is desperate to keep pushing him in the direction of confirming that there's something else at work aside from determinism and probability or randomness. This just confuses a lot of what he's trying to say even more to me.

How many people have had a strong position on free will in the past but now have a different one? Eg strong belief in lib free will and now a compatibilist etc

One of the big objections to the denial of basic desert responsibility is from the praise side, perhaps even more than the blame side from what ive seen.

Getting rid of the notion of basic desert would mean people don't "deserve" praise for their actions.

An often used example seems to be someone like a surgeon - they sacrifice a great deal. In the UK you're looking at 13-16 years of training. Super long, unsociable, hours without an immediate pay off, plus a great deal of stress. Saving lives along the way.

How could they not be deserving of praise??

Because what someone does is a representation of the system they are.

I'd push back against the framing of "they could have sacrificed but chose not to" (ie more than one live option available in any moment in a metaphysical sense).

Instead I'd frame it as something like "their action revealed what this particular causal system produced under those conditions."

The attitude that everyone could be equally virtuous, but some decide not to be, assumes the very thing in question.

Ie if character, motivation, valuation, impulse strength, reasoning style, and all other relevant traits are causally produced, then the capacity to sacrifice etc is just part of the system unfolding.

Take 2 people witnessing danger. One runs in and helps, the other freezes. We may say that they both had the capacity, but only one chose courage. But that smuggles in the idea of multiple live possibilities inside the same person at the same moment.

Rather than an expression of the system they are in that moment. They don't control what happens biologically or otherwise in that moment, adrenaline, threat perception, cortisol, prior training, prior trauma, pain tolerance, aggression, baseline anxiety, etc etc. Whether competing internal systems override the fear is not within the person's conscious control. So the actions were different because the systems were different in relevant ways.

In any specific moment your action emerges from the totality of what you are right then in that moment. I sometimes see arguments, even from conpatibilists, saying they could have made better choices up to that moment. Then they might have acted differently.

But that would imply there are multiple live possibilities inside the same person in the same moment in some situations, but then this has to be explained.

"You'll do what you do" - but that doesn't imply fatalism or passivity. Just that given the totality of causes, action emerges from what the organism is in that moment.

We can still be changed. Deliberation still matters, effort and sacrifice are still real. We can still admire and want to emulate courageous people or those who sacrifice- the inspiration can itself be a cause.

We can still say the sacrifice the surgeon made matters enormously. Saved lives, shaped lives, reflects compassion, discipline etc and is a moral good. It's the jump from "I'm a force for moral good in the world" to "therefore I'm deeply deserving in a contra-causal sense" that's the issue.

Removing basic desert doesn't remove morality with it. Harm, protection, reducing suffering etc still matters.

Not saying people are helpless either - you are the process, but being the process isn't the same as being the ultimate author. Eg deliberation doesn't prove an uncaused self outside the process, but your brain weighing options is real. But you don't control digestion by willing enzymes into existence, just as many thoughts and motives arise before conscious ownership.

We can talk about the instrumental use of praise and how/where that can be useful. But that's not the same thing as being deserving of it.

My Compatibilist Fire Department

(a play in one act)

Dramatis personae

Derek: a worried homeowner whose house is currently on fire.

Blaine: chief of the Compatibilist Fire Response Unit.

Scene 1

Derek stands outside his burning house in panic. Flames rise from the kitchen window. Blaine approaches calmly, clipboard in hand.

Derek: Thank God. My house is on fire.

Blaine: That depends what you mean by “on fire.”

Derek: …What?

Blaine: Well, if by “fire” you mean uncontrolled combustion threatening your home, then yes.

But if by “fire” you mean something metaphysically uncaused, independent of oxygen, fuel, and heat—then no, obviously not.

Derek: I don’t care about metaphysics. I need you to put it out.

Blaine: And we shall. But first we must be precise.

This fire is entirely compatible with the laws of chemistry.

Derek: Fine. Put it out.

Blaine: We prefer not to say “put out.” That language implies suppression.

We call it “guiding thermal expression into more socially constructive pathways.”

Derek: My kitchen is melting!

Blaine: Yes, but notice—your house is not burning because it was forced to by another fire holding a gun to its head.

Derek: What?

Blaine: The flames are emerging from the internal properties of your house under specific conditions.

In that sense, this is your house’s fire.

Derek: I don’t think that helps.

Blaine: On the contrary—it preserves meaningful distinctions.

Arson, lightning strike, faulty wiring… these are all different forms of fire participation.

Derek: Are you going to spray water or not?

Blaine: Of course. We fully believe in accountability.

Derek: Accountability for who?!

Blaine: Primarily the curtains. They were highly flammable and failed to regulate themselves appropriately.

Derek: You’re blaming my curtains?

Blaine: Not blame exactly. More… reasons-responsive fabric assessment.

Derek: THEY’RE CURTAINS.

Blaine: Exactly. And yet under the right incentives, different curtains behave differently.

Derek: So your solution?

Blaine: We remove the curtains, extinguish the flames, install better materials, and encourage future fire-avoidant tendencies.

Derek: That’s just firefighting.

Blaine: Yes—but compatibilist firefighting.

We save the house without denying that it was always governed by physical law.

Derek: Then why all this semantic nonsense?

Blaine: Because Derek, once you understand that “freedom from causation” was never required, you stop demanding magical fireproofing and start appreciating functional fire management.

Derek: My dog is still inside.

Blaine: Ah. Immediate practical concern.

See? You’re already thinking like a compatibilist.

Blaine signals the firefighters.

Blaine: Proceed with intervention.

Exeunt.

Why do many libertarians seem to treat free will as the default, requiring no independent evidence, while treating determinism as the only view that carries a burden of proof?

Is this just intuition + phenomenology (ie “it feels like I choose”), or is there a stronger argument I’m missing??