u/EoZCompanyCZ

The early history of breech loading rifles used by Stahlstadt closely followed the Astro-Hungarian path, apart from some license production of the Dreyse for police use (that led to the adoption of the long 1866 Winchester later on).

Wänzel conversions of the Lorenz led to the Werndl-Holub rifles and finally to the glorious Mannlichers. However, that damn 11mm cartridge - 11 x 58 mm R, used by the Werndls and the 1886 Mannlicher. It was… overproduced wouldn't cut it. Those cartridges were everywhere and there was no good use for them after the adoption of the M1888 Mannlicher in 8 mm.

Solution? Cut down the massive rifle by 350 mm (13.8”) and you’ll get yourself an easy to carry flame thrower, only 976 mm (38.4”) long. Widely issued to the artillery. Firing prone in tall dry grass not recommended.

Combination of these and old converted Colts made sure that Stahlstadt’s artillery - the finest and most modern in Europe - carried probably the most antiquated sidearms into the 20th Century.

Now tell me. Who of you wouldn’t want to own the M1886 SuperCarabine? There is no gun comparable in the smiles per round department.

I’ve mentioned the adoption of the Russian version of the S&W Model 3 in the last part and today is the day to discuss it!

Its adoption is no coincidence. In 1871 the police adopted the 1866 Winchester, its 27” Musket variant - an almost 70 cm long side-mounted sword bayonet included, naturally. And since the 44 Henry rimfire was mistrusted and 44 S&W Russian was produced locally, it was chosen as the cartridge of choice.

Used for crowd control and strike suppression, they proved immensely effective. 16 rounds of 44 Russian available at a moment's notice. Highly polished examples with mirror-like finish  soon also entered ceremonial use.

But once cartridge revolvers appeared in general service, officers of these “Winchester units” felt the need to have a matching revolver, the old Colts too whimpy with their 38 S&W chambering.

S&W who was at the time preparing the Safety Hammerless license deal saw an opportunity and took it, Model 3s with stock were adopted basically on the spot.

And who carried these? The Ordner* units of the Police, Gendarmerie and some parts of the Army. Border and Financial Guards, Prison Guards. Anyone who needed a lot of rounds and didn’t mind the brick-like ballistics.

Just like the revolvers and their black powder filled 38 S&W, these Winchesters and Model 3s stuck around for way too long, in fact, as late as the early 80s these could be seen in the hands of some rural police units.

What do we think, can a big long lever gun serve such a role?

^(*Ordners - The brawn, the muscle of the Military and Police units. Not the sharpest but always called when shit goes south. Mild war crimes.)

So, I’m curious. I’m working up a scenario where the selection of handguns is… well a bit of a wild west. 

The budget is tight, and handguns are in some ways undermined by the system of  “if it’s broke fix it.” Generally the guns have to fail almost catastrophically to be taken out of service.

Early 1860s The Military and the Police together adopted a modification of the 1861 Colt New Navy. Fluted cylinder like on the 1862 Police. With provision for a shoulder stock that was actually issued to troops that might need it. 7.5” barrel. The gun otherwise isn’t any different, just produced locally (My fictional story being set in Central Europe).

It’s adopted universally: Army, Navy, Police, Gendarmerie, any Government forces that need guns, they use it.

And the gun just stuck around, by the late 1860s metallic cartridges appeared but the combustible cartridges used in the percussion guns were so common that the push to adopt a cartridge gun isn’t that strong (unlike with the rifles). And of course, once again, with the tight budget. There was a metric ton of these, everyone knew how to operate them. Why change anything?

Finally, by the late 1880s it’s clear that there had to be a change, the more rapid shooting wing of the Ordnance Committee decided that the S&W Safety Hammerless in 38S&W was the perfect replacement and it was adopted. Well, what it actually started was a schism. They wanted the DAO Safety Hammerless in 4”, the more accuracy oriented side wanted the SA/DA Model 4 with a shoulder stock provision and a 6” barrel. At the same time the Russian style S&W Model 3, with a shoulder stock, was partially adopted for specific use, non-Military. (Won’t go into why here)

Neither side wins, all kinds of variants are produced in 100s of examples each, tested, in the end the 6” DAO version is adopted, a perfect mix of both versions, hated by both sides.

At the same time a project to convert the old percussion guns into cartridge guns in 38 S&W was started. These early conversions were very nicely done, deep blueing, worn barrels actually got replaced. It was a surprisingly involved process. Mainly because of the shoulder stocks (DAO Safety Hammerless couldn't have it). 

But, this time of balance lasted only about 10 years before a new schism started. S&W Victory/M&P/Model 10 once again in 38 S&W vs. P04 and Swiss Luger hybrid in 7.65mm Luger but with a shoulder stock!

And the discussion dragged on for 10 years, the whole time, the Safety Hammerless and conversions were still being pumped out at a high rate.

WW1 (Or my story’s equivalent of it)  put a stop to that; guns were needed, even worse the factory that made the new S&W burned down but the factory that made the Conversions and new Colt parts was still running so… You actually get WW1 vintage parkerized new build examples of those.

After the war, the schism continued, and it ended in the worst way possible, both guns adopted, issued 50/50. One M&P for every Luger. Perfect. This continued through WW2 all the way till the 1970s(!!!) When finally, the shortrail CZ75 got adopted as the universal pistol, in 7.65 mm Luger. 

It is also only at this point that the conversion and rebuilding of the by now ancient Colts is stopped. Those have evolved a lot and not at all at the same time, from the deep blueing and later on parkerization these post about 1965 examples had the quintessential thick paint finish that chips easily.

Then and only then does the convoluted mess of guns, conversions, new or old finally slowly disappear. The only question that remains to be asked is, do they ever switch to 9 mm lol.

One can only imagine some poor Cadet at some point during the 1960s, with a Colt Conversion clapped out worse than a US Army Beretta.Desperately trying to hit the required targets.

What do we think?

So I wanna start working out and out of curiosity and to have something to compare against I made some measurements. For some reason my neck stands out a lot lol.

Like my forearms are like 34 cm (13.5"), biceps 39-40cm (15.5") but why the hell does my neck stick out this much at almost 19" lol

I've had people comment that I have a big neck for most of my life but I never actually noticed it.

I'm curious where did you start?