u/General-Teacher5865

I can definitely see John utilizing the Goblin Formula really well.

If he was bit by a radioactive spider, he'd definitely be more like Kaine than Peter Parker.

Gamma Radiation would probably be a game changer for him too.

Comment if you have anything else that might suit his character.

Sometimes I see fics that have me wanting more of his character complexity but they almost never get continued or I see ones where it just makes me hate how he's treated both in and out of Universe even more.

That's only MCU John I'm talking about; I can't remember the last time I saw an ao3 of Comic John or if I ever have to be honest, he deserves stories for himself too in my opinion.

I know there's other websites for this stuff but the one I use the most is archive of our own and there's a few decent ones on there lately but nothing that really has me constantly checking to see if it's been updated or not.

I just wanted to hear what other people's pitches would be for his fan written stories because both the MCU and the comics will only do so much with a character like him.

I know it's out of character for him because a major part of John's character development is not letting himself become a villain even when the entire world tells him he's not meant to be a hero but I would really love a story about him deciding to give into those doubts, fears and insecurities and him making the choice to turn his back on both the government and the superhero community.

If it was to happen, I think he'd still be more of an antagonist than pure villain in the end because he'd probably only go after people that he feels has wronged him like Bucky or Sam, or he would have to be mind controlled or brainwashed. I remember that Thunderbolts* had scrapped plans of him being a Hulk villain but Brave New World already had Red Hulk so they switched to Sentry.

I think it would be a nice what-if scenario because in both comics and live action, many characters don't give him all that much respect, trust or decency and even less try to see the best in him rather than the worst. Idk what the premise would be for comic John but I can see MCU John turning on the Thunderbolts, assuming that they treated him more like an outcast instead of learning to accept him like the movie was implying. I think he would still be redeemable but it would be a matter of if the team saw it that way and if John was enough of a competent threat to put them on defense, making himself an Avengers level threat.

This feels like an ao3 fic waiting to happen but anyways, what is your take on John giving into the hatred he receives and deciding to become a threat to his fellow heroes?

The Comics often forget that John's power broker enhancement made him stronger than Steve and that John has been trained by Taskmaster in Steve's style of fighting, he was also a superhuman wrestler, has military training and has probably trained with many people on all the teams he's been on. Obviously this doesn't guarantee that John is better because Steve still has more experience overall and he's faced far more powerful and skilled enemies. It's a shame that John has become more of a punching bag for pretty much any character that can be deemed more heroic than him though.

In the case of the MCU, he definitely felt like a character who's supposed to be formidable but the plot needed him to lose to show his inadequacy as Captain America first and then he got his moments to shine after becoming a super soldier. He went up against Sam and Bucky while he was mentally and emotionally broken and was out for blood. Obviously Sam and Bucky weren't trying to kill him but you would think their combined skill would be enough to take him down easily. Then the Flagsmashers were practically obstacles in his way in the Finale. Fast forward to Thunderbolts*, he's tossing Yelena and Taskmaster around in the Vault, jumping almost like the Hulk and he temporarily held up a piece of rubble that Spider-Man could probably lift on his own. You could only imagine how much better he's gotten after the 14 month time-skip.

I would like to think that John is the strongest base super soldier in the MCU so far but people are very protective over Steve's status as the only perfected serum user. There's also no doubt that Steve has had much better fight scenes and more wins throughout all his appearances while John is either getting humbled or putting up a challenge and then either losing or not getting to finish the fight. I do like to think that John is one of those soldiers that would practice even outside the military, so he wouldn't have to always be rushing to get a weapon just to win a fight. He was more than willing to fight Sam without the shield before the Dora Milaje walked in that one time, but maybe I'm just overestimating his capabilities, I don't know.

Also, what would you need from Avengers: Doomsday to feel satisfied with his arc by the end of the film?

And what type of relation do you want them to have with him? Could be enemies, rivals, allies, friends or even potential love interests if that's how far you would like it to go. Personally, I think he deserves more interaction with people that actually understand him as a person.

Obviously with TFATWS, Thunderbolts* and eventually, Avengers: Doomsday, MCU John is going to get a lot more spotlight in terms of Fanfiction but at the same time, it's not like Comic John has no stories to tell. Is he really so controversial that people just downright refuse to write about him or is he just forgotten in favor of using elements of his character whilst writing MCU John?

It's not that I hate seeing MCU John get stories dedicated to him, I just think it's weird how people are aware of his comic roots, judging from how they incorporate it into numerous fics, but never actually use that specific version of the character. Plus I would really like to see a lot of POV stories surrounding certain comics where he ends up being mischaracterized. Or stories explaining the aftermath of adventures where he was properly characterized. And maybe just random ones that put him in some of the most ridiculous or compelling positions for such a complex and interesting character.

I know this is probably not a shared gripe but I felt the need to voice it in the hopes that more people give comic John his flowers.

Obviously you want Peter and Felicia to be together and you probably hope someday the writers will actually go down that route to make them a cohesive pairing and give them a truly healthy relationship.

But with that being said, in full honesty, what are things the writers would have to change about Felicia to actually sell it to you?

(In terms of past or even modern writing choices, character traits you want to get rid of or maybe add on, things you want retconned out of existence or even story beats you think could have gone very differently, etc.)

Does anyone sometimes disagree with his direction in the MCU?

Just to clarify, I don't think the writers want John to be a unsympathetic character nor a character that does nothing wrong because his flaws and mistakes are what make him interesting, especially when he's trying to do the right thing, and I feel like the MCU has the right idea about the character but sometimes I can't really get behind the execution.

This post specifically touches on The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.

I think this show really set the tone for his character from start to finish, especially highlighting him as a morally grey anti-hero and also a very complex character and flawed man that just wants to do right by his country. With that being said, I think it was in character for John to put aside his revenge to save those hostages in the armored truck and help stop the Flagsmashers in the Finale but at the same time why is he quipping and smiling with Bucky, a man that fought him with almost no hesitation and helped break his arm the previous episode? I mean I don't want them to be enemies obviously but cmon Bucky was treating him like he shot his dog almost every scene they had.

Then another thing was Sam showing way more sympathy for the likes of Karli, a super soldier that knowingly killed innocent people on purpose, than John, a guy that he didn't like sure, but was just trying to do his job to the best of his ability. When John kills that flagsmasher with the shield, Sam does try to talk to him yes, but at the same time doesn't afford him the same patience he gave to Karli, instead demanding that he hands over a shield that Sam gave up on his own accord. I thought Captain America is supposed to be way more than just the shield anyways (Steve literally threw it away in both WS and CW, Bucky says carrying that shield doesn't make John Captain America) but this show seemed to think otherwise.

Then in the warehouse fight, the moment Bucky charges John, does Sam try to stop them? No he charges right alongside him like fighting John was the only option left. Now you can argue that they needed to make sure the shield didn't go back to government because they might pick a much worse option than John but it doesn't change the fact that John didn't want to fight and only started trying to kill AFTER they started coming at him. Some people probably thought he was a danger to himself or others after the execution but I honestly think he just wanted space and time to breathe and collect himself before figuring out the next step.

Another scene I didn't really think made sense was the fight scene with the Dora Milaje. I didn't have an issue with John losing or doubting his capabilities to the point he had to take the serum to make up for it but these women came for one thing and one thing only: ZEMO. Yet, just because he put a hand on their shoulder they completely throw that objective out the window just for the sake of trying to kill John which allows Zemo to escape no problem, which was very over the top for a hand on the shoulder, they could have just kicked him away and left it at that. It just seems like a scene fully dedicated to humiliating the antagonist more than moving his development forward. Also a lot of the audience seems to think it's ok for the Dora to disrespect jurisdiction but when the American characters do it, well now it's a big deal all of a sudden.

The last thing I wanted to mention was John's combat skill was completely dependent on the plot, one moment he's going toe to toe with super soldiers with no serum, another moment he can't land a single hit on the Dora Milaje despite his combat experience and then finally once he gets the serum, he starts fighting like he actually knows how to fight, especially when it came time for Sam and Bucky to come get the shield, he actually seemed like a seasoned special forces operator at that point despite losing and then by the Finale he's struggling to get a handle on Karli of all people.

It was definitely a missed opportunity when they didn't actually show us what John's military experience was like and why he got three medals of honor that he doesn't feel proud of at all. Not to mention all we get in terms of him, Bucky and Sam confronting their issues is a short nod and they go their separate ways.

I just wanted to know if I was the only one that saw it this way and if you have anymore scenes that you didn't really agree with on the direction of John's character, then please comment down below.

I also have a post about his role in Thunderbolts*/*The New Avengers if you're interested.

Link to original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/USAgent/s/l5WjAsB8y2

For anyone unaware, this is a post criticizing John's direction as a character in the MCU. This time we're talking about Thunderbolts*/*The New Avengers and I actually rewatched the whole movie today so it's fresh in my mind.

First, I'd like to state that I don't hate the movie and I also don't hate John's arc in it either but this post is to voice any grievances we have about his role in the movie. I will say that I think it's one of the better MCU Movies since Endgame but not up there with GOTG or Avengers in my opinion.

My biggest complaint was probably screentime and character development. The movie felt more like a Black Widow sequel than a Avengers Movie disguised as a Thunderbolts Movie. I don't have a problem with Yelena or Bob being the centre of the film but my god it felt like every other character could have used a lot more fleshing out. We're talking about John here but honestly Ava probably had it worst, leaving out Taskmaster of course, then Bucky and then Red Guardian but he had the advantage of being the main character's parental figure.

We get to see John's shame room early on in the film and we do get a glimpse at how he feels about it at the elevator scene and the gas station scene and obviously when Yelena threw it in his face after fighting Bob but we never truly hear how he feels about it or even a scene where he talks about it with another character, which could have probably benefited his character tremendously. Also, we get a scene of his murder as Captain America being brought up but we never get more context other than "Define Innocent". This movie requires us to do homework to know a lot of the characters so why were they so hesitant to bring up stuff from TFATWS, AM&TW and even Black Widow to some extent. We get to know about John's time as Captain America but not Lemar, the whole reason he went berserk and lost the title in the first place.

Next, I wanted to talk about John's personality in this film. I had no problem with him being the one to stir up conflict because let's be honest his character is made for that but I felt there was moments where the script was making him out to be dumber and even crueler than he's supposed to be. John has been burned by the government before and yet he can't believe that someone like Valentina would send him to his death just to tie up loose ends and then later on we had the scene where he was interrogating Bob and threatened to throw him back into the fire of the Vault, I understand he might not trust Bob but that's overkill for John because he never seemed like someone that would kill a civilian on a whim.

Then we have the scene where he tries to take charge of the group to plan the escape from facility which they shut down, understandably, because John should have been more cooperative not assertive but then the moment Yelena starts making the plan, everyone is automatically on board like she was the better pick when she literally did nothing to prove that at this point and also didn't want someone in charge but she then puts herself in charge without question. Now her plan failed yes and John was the one that told her how it might fail and he still came back despite them believing he would leave them on their own to save himself but I still think the film was forcing Yelena's leadership role here instead of letting come naturally. We also had the scene where they're driving out and John says he'll handle the checkpoint and then Yelena and Ava react negatively, which was right, but they didn't come up with any other solutions to the problem.

Then we have the desert scenes and the limo scenes as well. I think those were pretty decent because it's mainly just the characters getting familiar with each other. We then see them get kidnapped by Bucky and they're trying their best to tell them what happened with Valentina and he keeps shutting them down. John makes a small, mocking comment about his position as a Congressman. Bucky then walks over, John tells him that he knows him as a way to convince him that he should trust them, which is fair he did help him with the Flagsmashers in the end, but then out of nowhere Bucky brings up John's estranged Family Life in front of everybody. I honestly can't tell if he did that to Embarrass John, which is nothing new, or if he just wanted to tell him that he knows he's struggling just like everyone else so there's no point in hiding it. Either way, I felt the truth about his family coming out could have been handled better, even if it did give us a nice scene between Yelena and John where they look each other in the eye with a silent understanding.

Also I felt his dynamic with Bucky was completely wasted because these two have the 2nd most history on the team and yet we have literally nothing where these two characters are actively confronting that history. We have no clue how they feel about one another, if they hate each other, respect each other, want to forgive each other, etc.

The Truck scene was something I felt could have had more deeper scenes apart from the usual banter and making John look stupid because his gun has a long barrel and his helmet is being called a hat and he thinks it's cool.

Then we have the scene where Yelena throws his shame of his family leaving him in his face. It's obviously not a scene to laugh at but I don't really count on the audience being that mature because it also felt like something people would laugh at instead of show concern for.

Everything after was pretty great all the way up to when they became the new avengers. The Post-Credit scene has me split honestly. You would think the team would be acting a lot closer than they did in this scene, also I want John's helmet back with his shield fixed because he honestly looks stupid to me but that's my opinion. Then he makes the space joke which I'm not sure if that's in character or just another attempt at making him look dumber than everyone else and someone the team shouldn't take seriously.

Sorry for the extremely long post but to summarize there's things I like about his arc in thunderbolts* and things I don't.

1. If John wasn't a super soldier, what powerset would you give him instead and how would he attain those powers?

2. What areas of expertise should John's skillset specialize in/comprise of and where exactly do you think his skill level should be at in terms of his hand-to-hand/martial arts training?

Side Note: Answers Can apply to both Comic or MCU John.

Just to clarify, I don't think the writers want John to be a unsympathetic character nor a character that does nothing wrong because his flaws and mistakes are what make him interesting, especially when he's trying to do the right thing, and I feel like the MCU has the right idea about the character but sometimes I can't really get behind the execution.

TFATWS:

I think this show really set the tone for his character from start to finish, especially highlighting him as a morally grey anti-hero and also a very complex and flawed man that just wants to do right by his country. With that being said, I think it was in character for John to put aside his revenge to save those hostages in the armored truck and help stop the Flagsmashers in the Finale but at the same time why is he quipping and smiling with Bucky, a man that fought him with almost no hesitation and helped break his arm the previous episode? I mean I don't want them to be enemies obviously but cmon Bucky was treating him like he shot his dog almost every scene they had.

Then another thing was Sam showing way more sympathy for the likes of Karli, a super soldier that killed innocent people on purpose, than John, a guy that he didn't like sure but was just trying to do his job. When John kills that flagsmasher with the shield, Sam does try to talk to him yes but at the same time doesn't afford him the same patience he gave Karli, instead demanding that he hands over a shield that Sam gave up on his own accord and besides, Captain America is way more than just the shield but this show seemed to think otherwise.

Then the moment Bucky charges John, does Sam try to stop them? No he charges right alongside him like fighting John was the only option left. Now you can argue that they needed to make sure the shield didn't go back to government because they might pick a much worse option than John but it doesn't change the fact that John didn't want to fight and only started trying to kill AFTER they started coming at him.

Another scene I didn't really think made sense was the fight scene with the Dora Milaje. I didn't have an issue with John losing or doubting his capabilities to the point he had to take the serum to make up for it but these women came for one thing and one thing only: ZEMO. Yet, just because he put a hand on their shoulder they completely throw that objective out the window just for the sake of trying to kill John which allows Zemo to escape no problem, which was very over the top for a hand on the shoulder, they could have just kicked him away and left it at that. It just seems like a scene fully dedicated to humiliating the antagonist more than moving his development forward.

Also I feel like there was a real missed opportunity to showcase John's time in the military so we could see what he did to earn three medals of honor and why he regrets it so much.

I just wanted to know if I was the only one that saw it this way and if you have anymore scenes that you didn't really agree with the direction of John's character, then please comment down below.

Let me know if you want me to do a post about his role in Thunderbolts*/The New Avengers.