u/Glum_Caterpillar_345

Two different reactions to a fat woman from the same sub. First is from a year ago and second is a few months ago. I know I shouldn’t expect any better from a disgusting normie subreddit like SipsTea; but it’s massively depressing because of how many people frequent that sub and talk like this. Fat women are only acceptable to them if they’re “fuckable”. “Body positivity is only positive if she makes me horny”. Otherwise us fat women are disgusting lumps of meat to them who shouldn’t be allowed to think better of ourselves. I don’t want to live on a planet with these guys, I wish there was another universe I could leave to. Their minds are fucking porn-rotten to the core. They think they’re entitled to our bodies, constantly judge and critique them. Then later, they whine about being lonely and unappreciated.

I know that the entire point of Game of Thrones is that everybody is a terrible person, and it’s okay to like terrible people while condoning their actions if it was done IRL; but I hate how this show and similar media can make characters who are literal rapists seem like lovable underdogs. I know this is less obvious sexism, but with the normalization of phrases like “bros before hoes (women)” it’s irritating with how random women just saying “I’m tired of men” or “men are trash” is enough for guys to call it “misandry” and say that we have an anti-male problem in society while there’s a ton of regular lingo that subtly puts down women. IDK, I don’t care if it’s joking because as a woman I’m already used to feeling like second-best and less-than; so I’m tired of seeing people, especially dudes, talk like this. And then of course there’s the cisnormative aspect which puts the cherry on top. Not all men have dicks and not all women have vaginas bro. Your sword ain’t special.

Even before House of the Dragon, regular Game of Thrones has so much horrible misogyny-specific shit happening to women to a point where it feels more like shock value than actual commentary. Even characters we’re supposed to see as good people or want to see succeed will casually talk about rape & shit. Tons of nasty-ass men on that show who get to be seen as honorable just for doing the bare minimum of not acting out on their cruel desires. Icks me tf out 🫩

Not all, but SO MANY of the highest-rated classic animes/mangas/movies/tv shows/cartoons/etc have blatant or subtle misogyny. For instance, some of the most iconic animes that people rave about and say that they’re a “must watch” will center around men surrounded by objectified women and female minors. Also, a lot will have certain tropes for women that just start to feel repetitive for me as I see more of them. Even media that isn’t really misogynistic will just show a pattern of having the token sexy woman who uses it skillfully or cute-sy/timid supportive side character; and it just gets tiring after seeing the same thing over & over again even if it isn’t standalone bad.

Another thing that, for some reason, makes me upset is that I notice how some of the most talked-about/referenced media always seems to be around stuff with buff male protags fighting or having to commit extreme, frequent violence (a couple of especially iconic & loved characters, mainly from older media, are stoic and merciless). I’m not saying that those kinds of stories are bad as a lot of them show that their protags demeanor comes from deep trauma or can still show tenderness; but what draws people in, especially dudes I think, is how hardcore they feel. I guess in this particular case, I’m more so complaining about audiences than the media themselves. I know there’s more media with goofier, light-hearted protags; but then even media with those guys will also have problems with treating female characters weirdly. I still want to try out some of these stories and attempt to ignore/not let the stuff I don’t like prevent me from finding stuff in it that I do like. But, I still struggle with feeling the same hype for popular stuff that most people seem to like. I want to feel shared excitement and understanding of what’s “in” in our culture; but I usually find myself not vibing with most fandoms or certain media that gets praised.

At this point, it’s hard for me to enjoy most stuff—to find something I truly relate to. There’s no abundance of sexy men in bold outfits to swoon over, and media that shows women being imperfect, messed up, goofy, etcetera are rare gems. Average-looking women in media are even more scarce.

I’m going off on a tangent here, but even trying to find good fictional erotic content is difficult. There were a few good porn art subs that were made for women, but they all get taken down eventually. I make sure I regulate myself and yes, I know that I don’t want to become a porn addict who only knows how to objectify; but I want to be horny too. From time to time I like looking at fictional art whose only purpose is to have sexual fantasies about. There’s so much art made for guys while I gotta search for scraps of art that show off a fictional man’s chest or butt.

I’m just tired.

While I’m not trying to say that a person should be reduced to when they have been assaulted or sexually exploited by an abuser(s) and therefore can’t still explore their sexuality or want to be sexy; I still find it strange and annoying how quick some people are to sexualize Freaky Nikki’s body as she’s a version of Nikki that is under the control of Bear’s wish and is subjected to Bear’s objectification of her. While it may be unfair to argue this because this is just my and others’ interpretation of the clothing choices in the film; her outfits seem to get progressively more revealing AFTER she is influenced by the wish because she’s trying to appeal to Bear’s gaze to get him to love her. Even if the outfit is fine on its own, it’s not Nikki’s actual preference; she’s trying to appease Bear’s lust for her. So, it feels off to reduce her to a hot waifu when she’s a representation of objectification, loss of bodily autonomy, and how the male gaze reflects what men like Bear want a woman to be for them.

The first image is more obviously weird and was created by a pin-up artist who draws the same exaggerated body type, but I’m I bit on the fence about the second one. The art style is cool, but with the bold shine effect on the boobs it feels like it’s supposed to subtly draw my attention to them as it does for me with the shoulders, kneecaps, etc. And I get that it’s stylized but the proportions don’t even feel very accurate to what her body looks like in the movie. She does have a large chest, but she didn’t really have a large pear shape figure like that. It feels like it was done to make her more “hot”. The fact that they just sum her up as a Yandere goth waifu makes the art feel like it has sexual intentions to me; and I just feel kinda icked. I don’t know…i’m tired of shit like this 🫩

Apologies for the crappy images. It’s easier to show the full comments on a bigger screen than snapshot from my phone, but I’m terrible at transferring images from my laptop to my phone and I just wanted to quickly vent. I’m not talking about the obviously misogynistic Alex Myers since the entire internet is already aware of how bad how review was. I’m specifically talking about the kinds of videos that more subtle defend Bear in a more convincing, pleasantly-toned manner. I have this video a watch, and essentially he argues that the movie is actually about the uncertainty of love, something that we all experience when we like someone but aren’t sure if they like us back. While I like the basic interpretation, I don’t think that it means that automatically means that the interpretation of Obsession is “shallow” or invalid as this video accuses said interpretation of being.

The video starts to really upset me when it gets to Part 4 and onward. Additionally, one of his main points is that because most of us have related to the feelings of unrequited affection that Bear has; that means we could also easily end up like Bear so we shouldn’t label him as evil. He also says that he thinks people are “reducing” him to an incel because it makes it easier for them to distance themselves from Bear, denying that they haven’t had guilty thoughts like Bear of wishing they could know for sure or guarantee that someone loved them. I just…don’t like this at all. Yes, while a lot of us understand the feeling of unrequited love; that doesn’t mean the majority of us think that we’re entitled to it and would take the chance to force someone into it. But then he also argues that Bear isn’t an incel and thinks he’s entitled to Nikki because when he gets on the phone call he asks if her love is real; and the YouTuber argues that if he wasn’t an incel he would be content with the situation and wouldn’t ask such a question. Dude even said he thinks other people & reviewers are “too harsh” on Bear, I’m not kidding. I just don’t think that argument erases anything else that Bear has done. He sexually assaulted Nikki even when he just thought that she was mentally unwell and influenced by heavy drugs.

Some other comments that appearances under this video besides the ones I’m showing in the images ticked me off too. They read so ignorant & haughty.

One reads, “Anyone who thinks this is just about incels is terrible narrow minded. It obviously just a morality tale that could literally apply to anyone.”

Another: “I used to think that demonizing or otherwise ridiculing “incels” was punching down. Then I realized that people who hate on incels are generally ugos who have sex with other ugos. That’s when I realized that they are actually punching up”

“Calling it incel horror film is way too reductive. The film is far deeper than that. If that’s all you get out of it, you’re missing out”

“I haven’t watched the full review, but this take is already so refreshing! Reducing the film to a criticism against incels is just so disgustingly plebeian”

I do believe that many of us could become Bear, but that doesn’t mean that Bear isn’t a bad person. Combining both, I think this film can be interpreted as how normalized misogyny fuels men who start from a more innocent position of just wanting to be loved to be obsessed with a woman (to fulfill his romantic & sexual desires) without truly loving her. We can be hard on Bear and reflect on ourselves to make sure we don’t become like him. I’m so fucking tired of misogyny being minimized or people saying that misogyny isn’t a theme present in this film at all. Even if one doesn’t think he’s specifically an incel he’s still misogynistic. Why do these guys like to prop themselves up as smarter and “less shallow” than those who are analyzing the themes of misogyny? Both a philosophical dilemma and misogyny can be present in a film.

I’ve seen different people on this subreddit lightly debate various cases of exaggerated proportions or if a character is sexualized a certain way (I.e. some will feel it crosses into objectification/over-sexualization while others feel it’s just casual sexiness given to a character). I put up some images of small comment discussions or quick takes I’ve seen from people with different perspectives around this topic that I took into account in my thought process or am just using as examples of arguments from various sides, but DO NOT FEEL OBLIGATED to look at all of them, most of them you do not need to look at.

(Image #1) I feel like it’s important to think about this stuff because a lot of us (regardless of gender) like to explore sexuality through characters and art sometimes, but it becomes muddy as the female body is sexualized so much more than the male body; and is used to attract audiences, sell products, influence women, & more in a way that feels exploitative. I think this subreddit is a good place to talk about it bc/ it recognizes that the issue is nuanced.

When it comes to character eyes with unrealistic bodies or exaggerated proportions (images #2-5):

There are shows like Total Drama and Dexter’s Laboratory where all of the characters have cartoonishly unrealistic bodies to communicate the vibe of the character. In one of the images there’s a conversation about One Piece, and while I haven’t read or watched One Piece yet, I initially thought that people were uncomfy with its portrayal of women bc/ the hot characters all have the same body type, while the ugly women are the only ones who stray from that; but I that was only my own takeaway from looking at a few conversations about it by others. I need to hear more from people who’ve watched the show or read the manga.

While on one hand reasonable people know that exaggerated proportions aren’t meant to be found sexy or replicated IRL, if a character’s body type is portrayed with certain proportions to symbolize them being conventionally attractive (especially more so than other types of bodies) then it’s inevitably going to influence many people’s perception of what’s attractive. We still have weirdos out there who will call skinny women ‘fat’ for not having a snatched waist or showing a little bit of puffed skin. Even if something is obvious stylized it’s important to consider what the intention behind said stylization is and how it influences the way we view people’s (especially women’s) bodies. So, where do we find the balance? My first guess is just diversifying bodies in fiction and not over-sexualizing the characters who have hyper-exaggerated yet conventionally attractive body designs.

There’s also body movements, clothing, camera shots, poses, clothing, etcetera that affect how a character is sexualized and perceived. I understand that there are times when utilizing conventionally sexy traits for a character is good if the goal is to reveal personality traits like campiness or confidence, or show how they are or how they’re able to seduce others; but sometimes there can be deeper investigation on why the author(s) wanted to include a very sexualized character in the first place (is their sexiness significant to the plot development or did they just want to make a sexy character).

(Images #6-8) I’m bringing up Chel from “The Road to El Dorado” because the story of her depiction is complicated. She is intentionally written to be seductive and enticing as she uses it to manipulate the guys; but it still brought up conversations about the way we perceive sexuality in women. When I watched it myself, her portrayal is not as exaggerated as some other examples of sexualized fictional women I’ve seen, and she still has a distinct personality & goals of her own; but I’m aware that there used to be a lot of back-and-forth debates about her in the past. I find the movie interesting because Tulio and Miguel are presented to the audience as handsome & desirable men as well, but they and Chel don’t do the same things to be perceived as sexy (I.e. Chel sometimes has a more swaying walk cycle than the guys and makes certain hand movements; while the guys’ sexiness is conveyed by how they stand out against other men and are desired by lots of women); so it makes me think about how men & women are sexualized differently. Although it makes sense for characters like her to be a charmer in order to get what she wants; is there ever a point where her characters’ writing/animation still goes too far and steps into objectification territory?

Lastly, I notice small but frequent discussions online considering when it’s appropriate to just want to design a character that you find hot just for the fun of it (hence the image #9, idolomantises is pretty diverse w/ their OCs so I they’re talking about giving a character certain features that they personally find hot) I’m thinking that maybe it starts to feel objectifying if solely the women are designed to be hyper-stylized & sexualized for the sake of horniness in an author’s work. Regarding images #12-14 (a conversation under a post a few months ago about the skeleton monster who’s ribcage was drawn similarly to boobies), I agree that exploring sexuality in art is interesting and not inherently bad, and shaming anything that is horny is unfair; but I still think that there’s importance to critiquing noticeable trends and how they influence what we perceive to be sexy/attractive (I.e. who’s allowed to be sexy, what body types are allowed to be “sexy”, what behavior must a woman versus a man display to be “sexy”, etcetera). But, I want to hear other people’s takes.

So, I saw this post on another subreddit where women post about a things that happened to them alongside a picture of a meal they’re having. One girl posted about how she experimented with different clothing and makeup, and was able to wow her date. The part that bothers me is one of the comment threads referencing the iconic makeover trope, where a girl who is either gender non-conforming or unconventionally attractive gets a makeover and only then finds her own confidence. I haven’t seen the movie with Sandra Bullock yet, but I watched a good video discussing the makeover trope by a woman who goes by verilybitchie on YouTube and it seems to be about a tomboyish secret agent who has to enter a beauty pageant to go undercover (I think?) and by the end of the movie she stops being a messy, unkempt tomboy with no bitches (men) and transforms into a conventionally feminine woman who’s got a guy interested in her. I have seen “She’s All That” a long time ago and remember how the male lead transforms Laney from an art nerd in overalls to a sexy babe by the end of the movie.

Why can’t these movies have any of the women go back to their original style if they were “hot the entire time”? Why do they have to change to fit into the norm to find their confidence? In other discussions I’ve seen around the trope, some people interpret the trope as a self love journey. AKA, she was a tomboy because she didn’t love herself enough (didn’t think she was pretty enough to dress conventionally feminine) and therefore didn’t care about her appearance or embrace her true beauty. What I especially hate about this interpretation is that we never bat an eye at men who look like the don’t at least maintain an organized skin care routine, never wear makeup, and are always wearing the most basic-ass outfit in comparison to what a woman wears to feel pretty. Why is a tomboy or nerdy woman a flaw that needs to be fixed? Men are given a pass to do less while women are questioned if they truly love themselves if they god-forbid don’t look appealing to others. Men being messy and not taking care of themselves is “natural”, otherwise, they’re a vain metrosexual. Women, however, have to do everything under the sun to make it seem like they are putting in reasonable effort into their appearance. Men have to do the bare minimum to be seen as good-looking, and are never questioned for their demeanor or appearance.

What if one simply doesn’t like makeup and like to dress more casual, is she a “plain Jane” now? I’m so fucking tired of this shite. It hurts the most that so many other women love this trope or don’t see anything wrong with it or any possible qualms non conventional women may have with what it implies.

A few days ago I came across this video on a popular subreddit. It was a skit of a guy on a bench press while a girl with weights was slowly walking backwards and was about to accidentally squat on his face, but another guy comes in and stops her while the original dude is staring at him like he ruined his opportunity to have the girl sit on his face. Some people in the comments were jokingly going “villain origin story” and stuff like that.

A few days ago I was looking at this post of someone with their cat with his butt out, and someone in the comments mentioned the “girl, you’re thicker than a bowl of oatmeal meme”. And it’s still a funny meme, in which a prosecutor was reading a pickup line that the defendant said to an undercover female cop while he was selling her weed. Idk, I feel like using flirtatious sexual comments towards someone you barely know is kinda weird; I feel like it’s more appropriate doing it to people you know better who like those kinds of compliments. Seeing the way the commenters admired his horniness just kind of made me feel weird, like maybe I’m just being sensitive because of how women’s bodies and booties are gawked at or sexualized more than men’s? It just irks me for some reason. I hate how I can’t tell if I’m right or just oversensitive because of how normal the sexualization of women’s bodies is.

Male horniness is received as comical, relatable, and iconic. But when it comes to stuff like Heated Rivalry, Love and Deepspace, Tumblr Sexy Men, etc; women’s expression of horniness is viewed as pathetic or obsessive. I mean, there’s always that trope of “ravenous fangirls” shared around certain spaces. One time, I saw this comic someone made on Twitter poking fun at men who whine about video game women not being sexy enough while women get horny over inhuman characters like Sans, and the a bunch of men got salty and attacked the poster. I saw one guy making fun of women who liked the ghoul character from the Fallout TV show because he “looked like a rotting corpse” in response to the comic.

I’m new to this subreddit, so I’m sorry if I seem out of place. I just need to vent, and this has been itching at my brain and making feel upset. I feel like this is the only safe space I can just vent about being a woman in this world and the type of patterns I see.

If you’re chronically online like me and really into discussing fictional media, there’s a chance you’ve seen people talking about the modern girlboss trope and how they portray their idea of a strong woman. People specifically bring up movies like Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman as examples, and say that the issue with the modern version of a strong woman is that they are portrayed as perfect, are rude in a way that is rewarded by the narrative, and assume that softness is inherently “weaker”. I haven’t watched these movies for myself so I can’t judge them yet, but I’ve seen some people say that the problem is that they act like a stereotypical toxic male action hero (I saw one video by a woman use James Bond or Indiana Jones as an example). On the contrary, there has also been a rise of defensive arguments for older Disney princesses like Cinderella, Snow White, and Belle who were previously seen as weak and as “bad” role models for women by some critiques. I do agree that the strength of gentleness is usually not noticed, and it’s bad to think that patriarchal ideas of strength such as physical muscle or aggression are the only form of strength or are “superior”. However, I feel like when I see some people (not all) critique the idea of the modern girlboss, I feel like they miss the mark sometimes by blaming it purely on feminism, or think that feminists don’t understand “true femininity” (whatever that means). Sometimes they just completely misunderstand what most feminists actually want or maybe why some misguided feminists have poor analysis of gentle female characters in the first place.

I stumbled on a video by a YouTuber, which was a defense of Cinderella and also an analysis of how her femininity contrasts with Lady Tremaine’s. I had seen one of her videos before, but I had no clue this woman was an anti-feminist until she goes off on feminism as a whole at the very end of her video. Apparently this video was a sort of response to critique articles about Cinderella made by feminists. In this one part she claims that some feminists who speak more positively of Cinderella has pointed to a scene where she wakes up and acts frustrated and angry to prove that she’s a good role model for young girls. She then says that while Cinderella expressing frustration is valid due to her situation, “It’s really weird to call it a stubborn streak and a good role model” and that feminists are “not making feminism look good” if “they think bad character makes one a good role model”. She keeps going, saying that “looking for moments like these and holding them in high regard, and saying that young girls could emulate this is disgusting” and then she transitioned into another discussion by saying “why do we put down soft and quiet women?” As a mostly soft and quiet woman myself, I agree that softness should be seen as just as strong and feminist as aggressiveness; but her words immediately gave me an icky vibe bc/ I could *hear* the condescending tone towards feminists 🫩

This is just me spitballing as a naive 21 year old woman who is a baby feminist, but I think feminists may have liked to see representation of women being angry, frustrated, or “unpleasant” because of a lot of history women have a pressure placed onto them to be docile, agreeable, and tolerant of terrible situations; so I can understand the want for little girls to see that it’s okay to be angry (especially with how little girls are expected & taught to mature faster than boys, I think many girls & young women have pent up frustration).

She claims that Western media “demonizes” softness and gentleness while upholding rude women; which I just…don’t agree with. Maybe a few movies & tv shows who have a misguided view of feminism and what makes a great female character do that, but most movies and tv shows don’t really do that. She makes the argument that anyone can look up to Cinderella and find her inspirational even if they’re not exactly like her, look different, or aren’t even a woman; which I agree with. However, I think the real problem isn’t Cinderella herself, I think she’s great in terms of her kindness and resilience. I think the issue is that Disney is not very good with showing different types of female experiences (in my humble opinion). I think most feminists just want to see more diverse representations of women, especially in a world where women are pressured to shrink themselves and fit a narrow expectation.

Anyway, I just find it annoying that a lot of commentary and critique on the modern girlboss is never nuanced. The blame is solely placed on feminists or “mean women” who “think they’re superior to women who want to get married & have babies”. (No joke, she literally says something like this, I can put quote in a comment below). The comment section is just as bad, complaining about feminists and “leftist society”; and I just feel so exhausted because a lot of these people are also women. Women degrading feminism and generalizing feminists feels like a punch to the heart. I’m just…tired of feminists being demonized. Maybe those feminist articles the YouTuber read were extreme and ignorant, but the way that some people will use that as an excuse to stay narrow-minded is upsetting. Someone was even saying that Dreamwork’s female characters are inherently bad because they’re “all girlbosses or tomboys”, like you’re no better than regressive women who stigmatize soft women if you think tomboys or women who get physical are a threat or anti-femininity.

Why does no one bring up how the patriarchy is the system that undermines femininity in the first place, deeming crying or gentleness as weaknesses? The patriarchy is the system that decided that strength is measured by muscle and hostility.