u/Happy_Ad_9976

Joel felt the first hit before he even understood what was happening.

A flash of white.
A crack like thunder inside his skull.
The world tilting sideways.
Ellie screaming his name — begging — the way she did in the lodge.

Then nothing.

Then—

He gasped awake like a drowning man breaking the surface.

He was on his couch. His own couch. His boots were still on. His head wasn’t split open. There was no blood, no snow, no Abby, no WLF. Just the familiar smell of old wood, coffee grounds, and the faint lavender soap Ellie insisted on using.

Joel sat up so fast the room spun.

Tommy and Maria were standing in front of him like he’d just walked in from patrol.

“Jesus, Joel,” Tommy muttered. “You look like you seen a ghost.”

Joel stared at him, breath shaking. “Tommy… you were with me. We were in a blizzard. We saved a girl. She— she hit me. I died. I heard Ellie beggin’ for me. I— I died.”

Before Tommy could respond, a door creaked open.

Ellie stepped out of her room, rubbing her eyes, wearing one of his old flannels.

“Hey Joel,” she said softly. “You’re back. I missed you.”

Joel froze.

He had seen her. Right before he died. He had heard her scream. He had heard her break.

But this Ellie...
She looked at him with warmth.
With love.
With relief.

And that’s when he broke.

“Ellie…” His voice cracked. “I saw you. I told you the truth. And you… you avoided me for two years.”

Ellie blinked, confused. “Two… years?”

Joel nodded, haunted. “You avoided me for that long. Didn't even try to look at me. You just… sat as far away from me as you could. Every time.”

Ellie’s eyebrows knit. “What do you mean?”

Joel swallowed. “Thanksgiving dinner… you sat at the opposite end of the table. Dina and Jesse were talkin’, laughin’, and you didn’t even glance my way. Not once. I was sittin’ in the corner alone. Like I wasn’t even part o’ the family.”

Ellie stared at him, horrified. “Joel… what? No. No, that— that makes no sense.”

She shook her head, almost offended.

“You think I’d sit across the room from you on purpose? You think I’d pretend you weren’t there? Joel, don’t be silly. I would never do that to you.”

Joel’s voice trembled. “But you did.”

“No,” Ellie said immediately, firmly. “I didn’t. That wasn’t me. That wasn’t even close to me.”

She scooted closer, voice rising with emotion.

“Joel, listen. I love you. You’re the one person I trust more than anyone. You think I’d let you sit alone in a corner? You think I’d look everywhere but at you? You think I’d laugh with other people while you sat there hurting?”

Her voice cracked.

“That’s not me. That’s not who I am with you. Remember what I said at the ranch, my fear of being alone? Why would I do that to you, when I said you were the one that didn't leave me all those years, and that I begged you to stay with me before we left for the university?”

Tommy stepped in. “She’s right, brother. Real Ellie wouldn’t do that. Not in a million damn years.”

Maria nodded. “That sounds like someone else entirely. Someone cold. Someone ungrateful.”

Joel swallowed. “There was… the dance.”

Ellie tilted her head. “What about it?”

Joel’s voice shook. “When Seth said those things to you… I pushed him. I defended you. And you turned to me and said… ‘I don’t need your help, Joel.’”

Ellie’s face twisted in pure confusion — then disbelief — then heartbreak.

“What?” she whispered. “Joel… why would I ever say that? That doesn’t even make sense.”

She scooted closer, voice rising.

“Joel… you defending me? You stepping in when someone insulted me? That’s who you are. That’s what you’ve always done. And I’ve always been grateful for it. I would never snap at you for protecting me. Never.”

Her voice cracked.

“I don’t care how old I get — I’ll always want you in my corner.”

She paused for a moment then said, "We need each other Joel, and no matter what I will always want your help."

Joel’s breath shook. “There was… the porch.”

Ellie blinked. “What porch?”

Joel’s eyes filled. “You told me… your life would’ve mattered if I’d let you die. You said I took that from you. You said you didn’t know if you could forgive me… but you’d like to try.”

Ellie recoiled like she’d been stabbed. “Joel… I would never say that to you. Never.”

Joel wiped his eyes. “But you did.”

“No,” Ellie said, voice trembling. “That wasn’t me. That was the darker Ellie. The corrupted one. The one Neil twisted.”

Joel looked up, confused. “Neil…?”

Ellie nodded, expression darkening.

“Joel… you were trapped in another timeline. A darker one. A timeline created by an evil man named Neil Druckmann — someone who wanted to destroy our bond. He wanted to rewrite us. Twist us. Break what we have.”

"That's why they had you act stupid. Say your name in front of a bunch of strangers. That's not the Joel I know. That's not the Joel that recognized an ambush before it happened. That's not a person who survived over 20 yrs.

Joel stared at her, stunned.

Ellie continued, voice fierce.

“Bruce Straley and Amy Hennig saw it coming before they left. They saw who Neil was. They built this world — the real canon — to protect us. To save our story. To save us.”

Joel’s breath shook. “Ellie… there’s more. After I told you the truth… you ran away. Back to the hospital. I followed you. I tried to hug you. And you pushed me away. You said… ‘Don’t touch me. I’ll go back… but we’re done.’”

Ellie’s face went white.

“Joel… I could never say that. After everything we’ve been through? After everything you did to protect me? I would never tell you we were done. I couldn’t. I wouldn’t survive losing you.”

She grabbed his hands, squeezing them tight.

“That wasn’t me. That was the darkest version of me. The one Neil twisted into something cruel and unrecognizable.”

She leaned her forehead against his.

“You’re home now. With the real me. The one who cares about you. The one who loves you. The one who would never, ever push you away.”

Joel’s voice cracked. “But you avoided me too… didn’t you?”

Ellie nodded slowly. “Yeah. For a month. And I hated myself for it. I wasn’t angry at you — I was scared. I didn’t know how to talk to you. I didn’t know how to face what I learned. I was hurting. But I never stopped loving you. I never stopped wanting you in my life.”

Joel stared at her, stunned.

Ellie squeezed his hands tighter.

“And Joel… I forgave you a long time ago.”

Joel’s head snapped up. “You… what?”

Ellie nodded, eyes soft and full of truth.

“When you told me the truth — the real truth — about what happened in Salt Lake… everything clicked. You told me the Fireflies never woke me up. That they didn’t ask me. That they didn’t even try to find another way. That they were going to cut into my brain while I was unconscious.”

Her voice trembled.

“And then you told me about Marlene. How she lied to me. Lied to you. Betrayed me, betrayed us."

Ellie swallowed hard.

“I realized the Fireflies weren’t who I thought they were. They weren’t heroes. They weren’t saviors. They were desperate people willing to kill a kid who never got to speak for herself.”

She looked Joel dead in the eyes.

“They weren’t good people, Joel. They weren’t going to save the world. They were going to kill me. And they didn’t care.”

Joel’s breath hitched.

Ellie leaned closer, voice soft but fierce.

“You saved me from people who didn’t value my life. You saved me from dying without ever waking up. You saved me from being used.”

Her eyes filled.

“And I understood why you did it. I understood you couldn’t lose me. I understood you chose me. And I forgave you. Because I would’ve chosen you too.”

Joel’s breath shuddered. “A month… versus two years…”

Ellie cupped his cheek.

“Joel… our bond is unbreakable. Nothing could make me stop loving you. Not Salt Lake. Not fear. Not confusion. And definitely not some twisted alternate version of me.”

She pulled him into a tight hug.

“And Joel… I wish I pulled you out of there sooner.”

Joel froze.

Ellie’s voice broke.

“I wish I found you earlier. I wish I dragged you out of that nightmare the second you fell into it. I hate that you were stuck there alone. I hate that you thought that was me. I hate that you suffered because of her.”

She pressed her forehead to his.

“I’m so sorry I didn’t reach you sooner. I’m so sorry you had to live through that.”

Joel’s eyes filled.

Ellie held him tighter.

“You didn’t lose me,” she whispered. “You never will.”

That night, Ellie refused to leave his side.

She sat next to him on the couch, not leaving him. When he stood to get water, she stood too. When he sat, she sat. When he went to bed, she followed him into his room to check on him

“Ellie,” he murmured, “you don’t gotta—”

“I’m not leaving you,” she said simply. “Not tonight. Not tomorrow. Not for a while.”

She fell asleep with her head on his shoulder, one hand gripping his shirt like an anchor.

For the next three days, she barely left the house.

She cooked with him. Ate with him. Talked with him. Sat on the porch with him. Checked on him every time he shifted or sighed.

Whenever he looked at her, she looked back — immediately, warmly, like she was making up for every moment the dark‑timeline Ellie refused to.

Whenever he seemed distant, she touched his arm or leaned her head on his shoulder.

Whenever he woke up from nightmares, she was already there, whispering:

“You’re safe. I’m here. I’m not going anywhere.”

On the third night, Ellie sat across from him at the kitchen table.

“Joel… can you tell me more about her?” she asked quietly.

“Who?”

“The other me. The dark one.”

Joel hesitated. “Ellie… I don’t wanna hurt you.”

“You won’t,” she said softly. “I need to know what she did. So I can show you who I really am.”

Joel told her everything.

The coldness.
The distance.
The anger.
The rejection.
The way she looked at him like he was a stranger.

Ellie listened, jaw clenched, eyes wet.

When he finished, she whispered:

“That wasn’t me. That was a version of me built to hurt you. To punish you. To break you. And I hate her for what she did to you.”

Joel looked up, surprised.

Ellie reached across the table, taking his hand.

“I’m not her. I’ll never be her. And I’m going to spend the rest of my life proving that to you.”

Over the next week, Joel slowly began to believe it.

He started to notice the small things:

Ellie always looked at him when he spoke.
She laughed at his jokes again.
She hummed while cooking like she used to.
She sat close — always close.
She touched his arm when she walked by.
She checked on him when he was quiet.
She said “dad” more often, like she was reminding him she was real.

One night, he woke from a nightmare — the lodge, the golf club, Ellie screaming — and Ellie was already there, holding his face, whispering:

“It’s okay. I’m here. I’m real. I’m not leaving.”

And for the first time, Joel believed her.

On the eighth night, Joel sat on the porch, staring at the stars.

Ellie stepped outside and sat beside him, shoulder to shoulder.

“You okay?” she asked softly.

Joel nodded. “Gettin’ there.”

Ellie leaned her head on his arm.

“You’re home now, dad,” she whispered. “And I’m never leaving you again.”

Joel closed his eyes, letting the truth sink in.

For the first time since Salt Lake, he felt whole.

There was no sequel for The Last of Us, it was a standalone game. Joel and Ellie are living happily in Jackson together, loving each other with warmth like the duo we knew him to be.

At the beggining of pt II, where we see Ellie lives in Joel's backyard in a converted garage/shed when she is 15/16 yrs old but something is really off about that. At 19 yrs old, I kinda get it altough I think she would still live in Joel's house but even if she wanted to go off and be independent which makes sense at 19, it would probably be very close to Joel's house.

Let's go back to what Ellie said at the cabin where "everybody that I have either cared for has either died or left me, everybody except for you joel." I think the Ellie from pt I would want to live in Joel's house together because she wants to be with him after everything they went through together, she is scared to be alone and she finally has the one person that gave the world for her and she wants to distance herself from him by living in a shed? We see that Joel is living alone, and apparantly for 2 years he ate by himself and did his hobbies by himself.

I just dont buy ellie not living under the same roof as Joel and choosing to distance herself in a shed outside Joel's house. At 19 yeah it makes slightly more sense but when she was 15? Idk i just dont buy it

In my head canon, ellie lives under the same roof as Joel, has a bedroom in Joel's house, they eat their meals together at the same table, tell each other jokes, watch tv together in the living room, ellie watching joel do his hobbies, playing guitar

Like they did joel so dirty, at least have ellie live inside Joel's house so he doesnt feel as lonely and it would also make sense to ellies character as well.​

Did anybody else feel this way? Question why Ellie distanced herself from Joel and didnt live under the same roof?

Snow hammered against Ellie’s face as she sprinted through the trees, lungs burning, boots slipping on ice. She didn’t know how she got here — only that Joel was ahead of her, in danger, and she was already too late.

Shouting echoed through the storm.

Then a scream.

Then silence.

Ellie’s heart lurched. “Joel! JOEL!”

She burst through the lodge doors just in time to see them shove him to the ground. His face was bloody, dazed, his breath ragged. Abby stood over him, golf club in hand, her expression carved from fury and grief.

“No,” Ellie whispered, stumbling forward. “No, no, no—”

Someone grabbed her from behind, wrenching her arms back. She kicked, clawed, screamed, but she couldn’t break free.

Joel lifted his head, eyes searching, unfocused. “Ellie…?”

“Joel, I’m here! I’m right here!”

Abby didn’t look at her.

She swung.

The crack echoed through the room — a sickening, hollow sound that made Ellie’s stomach drop. Joel collapsed onto his side, coughing blood.

“STOP!” Ellie screamed, her voice shredding. “STOP! PLEASE!”

Another swing.

Ellie thrashed so violently the person holding her nearly lost their grip. Tears blurred her vision. Her throat burned. Her chest felt like it was collapsing.

“Joel, look at me!” she sobbed. “Please look at me!”

Joel’s eyes fluttered open, barely. He tried to lift his hand toward her, fingers trembling.

The club came down again.

Ellie screamed so loud her voice broke. She felt something inside her tear open — something she knew she’d never get back.

“Please,” she begged, voice cracking. “Please don’t take him from me. I can’t… I can’t be alone. I can’t.”

Abby raised the club one last time.

“No—NO—NO—!”

The world snapped to black.

Seattle swallowed her next.

Rain. Blood. Screams.
Jesse dying.
Tommy falling.
Dina crying.
Bodies everywhere — some she recognized, some she didn’t.

Ellie kept going.

Every kill felt like she was carving pieces out of herself. Every step forward felt like she was running from a void that wanted to swallow her whole.

“If I stop, he’s really gone.”

Then the beach.

Santa Barbara.
Salt in the air.
Blood in the water.

Ellie’s fingers were bitten off. Abby’s hands were around her throat. Ellie forced her under the waves, screaming inside her own skull:

“This will fix it. This will fix it. This will FIX IT.”

But it didn’t.

She let Abby go.

And the ocean roared like it was mocking her.

The farmhouse.

Quiet. Empty.
Joel’s guitar sitting in her lap.

Ellie tried to play.

The chord came out wrong.

She tried again.

Wrong.

Again.

Wrong.

Her breath hitched. Her vision blurred. She pressed her forehead to the guitar, tears dripping onto the wood.

“I wasted it,” she whispered. “I wasted all the time I had with you. I miss you so much, Joel. And now you’re gone. And I’m alone. I’m so alone.”

The room dimmed.

Her chest tightened.

The world collapsed around her.

“Ellie.”

A voice cut through the darkness.

“Ellie, hey. Wake up.”

Her eyes flew open.

She was in her bed in Jackson. Her heart hammered against her ribs. Her hands shook violently. She gasped for air, tears already streaming down her face.

And Joel was sitting beside her.

Alive.

Warm.

Real.

“Hey, hey,” Joel said softly, reaching out but giving her space. “Easy now. You’re alright.”

Ellie stared at him like she was seeing a miracle. Her lips trembled. “Joel…?”

“Yeah, kiddo. I’m right here.”

Ellie made a broken sound — half sob, half relief — and threw herself into his arms. Joel caught her instantly, pulling her tight against his chest.

She clung to him with both hands, fingers digging into his shirt like she was terrified he’d disappear.

“I saw you die,” she choked out. “I saw you die and I couldn’t stop it. I couldn’t do anything.”

Joel’s breath hitched. He wrapped one hand around the back of her head, the other around her shoulders, holding her like she was something precious.

“Shh,” he murmured. “It was just a nightmare.”

Ellie shook her head against his chest. “It felt real. It felt so real. You were gone. And I was alone. I was so alone.”

Joel closed his eyes, pained. “You’re not alone. You hear me? You’re not.”

Ellie pulled back enough to look at him, her face streaked with tears. “I wasted time. I wasted so much time being mad at you. And then you were gone and I couldn’t fix it. I couldn’t tell you I—”

Her voice broke.

Joel cupped her cheek gently. “Ellie… you didn’t waste anything. Not with me.”

Ellie swallowed hard. “I don’t want to lose you.”

“You’re not gonna,” Joel said, brushing a tear from her cheek with his thumb. “Not if I have anything to say about it.”

Ellie leaned into his touch, trembling. “Can you… stay? Just for a little?”

Joel didn’t hesitate. “’Course I can.”

He stayed until she fell asleep against his shoulder.

The next morning, Ellie followed him to the kitchen like a shadow. She watched him make coffee, watched him move, watched him breathe.

“You’re starin’ holes through me,” Joel said gently.

Ellie looked down. “Sorry.”

“Don’t be. Just makin’ sure you’re alright.”

“I’m not,” she whispered. “Not really.”

Joel set the mug down and crouched beside her chair. “You wanna talk about it?”

Ellie shook her head. “Not yet.”

Joel nodded. “Whenever you’re ready.”

Over the next days, she stayed close.

On patrol, she rode beside him instead of ahead.
In town, she walked at his pace.
At night, she sat on his porch while he played guitar.

Joel noticed.

He didn’t push.

He just stayed.

One evening, Ellie finally said, “I saw you die. I saw everything. I saw what I became after.”

Joel’s face softened. “Ellie…”

“I hurt people. I lost people. I lost myself. And at the end, I couldn’t even play your guitar.”

Joel swallowed hard. “Ellie, look at me.”

She did.

“You’re here,” he said. “I’m here. And we got time to figure this out.”

Ellie blinked fast. “I don’t want to waste it.”

Joel smiled — small, warm, proud. “Then we won’t.”

A week later, Ellie knocked on his door holding his guitar.

“Can I… play something for you?”

Joel stepped aside. “I’d love that.”

Ellie sat, hands trembling, and played a soft, aching melody. Not perfect — but real.

Joel wiped his eyes. “That was beautiful, Ellie.”

“I couldn’t play it in the nightmare,” she whispered.

“Well,” Joel said, voice thick, “you played the hell out of it now.”

On patrol, a clicker lunged at Joel from behind a collapsed wall. He shoved Ellie out of the way and took the hit himself.

Ellie’s vision tunneled.

Not again. Not again. NOT AGAIN.

She fired twice. The clicker fell.

Joel rolled onto his back, panting. “Well… that was somethin’.”

Ellie dropped to her knees beside him, shaking. “Joel, are you hurt? Are you bit? Let me see—”

“Ellie,” he said gently, “I’m fine.”

“You’re not fine!” she snapped, tears spilling over. “You scared the shit out of me!”

Joel sat up slowly. “I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to—”

“I can’t lose you,” Ellie whispered. “I can’t.”

Joel pulled her into a tight hug. “You’re not gonna.”

Ellie clung to him, sobbing. “Promise me.”

Joel held her even tighter. “I promise.”

A few days later, while fixing a gate, Joel dropped a board and nearly crushed his hand.

“Dad, I swear to god—”

Ellie froze.

Joel froze.

The world went quiet.

Ellie’s face flushed. “I… I didn’t mean—”

Joel’s voice was barely a whisper. “Say it again.”

Ellie swallowed. “Dad.”

Joel’s eyes glistened. He pulled her into a trembling hug.

“I missed hearin’ that,” he murmured.

Ellie closed her eyes. “I missed saying it.”

Years passed.

Jackson grew.
Ellie grew.
Joel grew older, softer, lighter.

They played music on the porch at sunset.
They patrolled together.
They laughed more.
They talked more.
They healed.

One evening, Ellie leaned her head on Joel’s shoulder as he hummed a tune.

“You ever think about Salt Lake?” she asked.

“Sometimes,” Joel said.

“You regret it?”

Joel thought for a long moment. “I regret hurtin’ you. But I don’t regret savin’ you.”

Ellie smiled softly. “I’m glad you did.”

Joel kissed the top of her head. “You turned out pretty damn good, kiddo.”

Ellie nudged him. “You too, old man.”

They watched the sun dip behind the mountains, warm light washing over them.

Ellie looked at him — really looked — and felt something settle in her chest.

She didn’t lose him.
She didn’t waste time.
She didn’t end up alone.

She got her dad back.

And she wasn’t letting go.

In multiple events of TLOU2, Ellie and Joel underwent character assassination (more towards Ellie). This refers to the deliberate destruction of a character's established personality, motivations, or reputation by the writer (ahem Neil). This occurs when a character acts in ways directly contradicting their established nature making them unlikeable usually to force a plot point or boost other characters. This whole entire game was literally just a retcon from the first game, it completely ignores or contradicts the events of TLOU Pt I.

Character Assassination Event #1: Joel Tells Ellie the truth

Now Joel notices Ellie is gone and only left a note, so he chases her and confronts her and says "What the hell were you thinking, you don't just run off like that with just a note. You talk to me." Then they share a very tense hug, and Ellie pushes Joel away and says "tell me the truth or we are done". This is where the stem of the problem starts, Ellie saying "we are done" is very off compared to the "everyone I have either cared for has either died or left me, everyone except for you". Ok, Neil, ok. Ellie would have said, "I know you lied to me Joel, on top of that hill in front of Jackson. That's why I have been distant to you. But I don't want to run anymore, I want to get this over with. No matter what you have done, I'm so scared of losing you, so please tell me the truth." This still connects to the events of the first game regarding when Ellie says that she is "scared of losing Joel, no matter what he has done". And Joel would have told the full story, instead of just saying "making a vaccine would have killed you, so I stopped them." He would have said that he woke up unconcious on a hospital bed, and that they were going to kill you without waking you up to give you a choice, and that it is also in Marlene's recorder that they were going to kill him as well, and that he made a choice to save her because he couldn't afford to lose another daughter. And then Ellie would break into tears, and would need time alone to process this (maximum 2 months), but saying that we're done? Yeah, that is character assassination and retconning the events of the first game because no way a person who was begging Joel to stay would so easily say that they are done. Her true thoughts would be that she would be "scared to lose Joel", because it was the one person who cared for her and loved her unconditionally so much, and was there for her.

Character Assassination Event #2: Winter Dance Scene

We see here that after Ellie kisses Dina, she gets confronted by Seth, and called some type of slur, in which the moment she starts confronting Seth, Joel pushes Seth and checks on Ellie to see if she is okay, but then Ellie says "I don't need your fucking help, Joel". Just straight out embarassing him through the whole crowd and he just leaves with an "okay". First off, what the literal hell? This is definitely not Ellie. I mean the fact Jesse said "so let me get this straight, you kissed Dina, then Seth called you a not so nice word, and Joel pushed him, then you got mad at him? That part confused me." And indeed it did Jesse, indeed it did. A major point of the first game is that Ellie and Joel needed each other, that is what made their relationship/bond so special. Ellie saved Joel after he fell into a stake, he took care of his wounds, she cared for him and even slept by his side. Joel went to save Ellie from david, confronting her, calling her "baby girl" and also saved her life at the hospital. Don't need help, my ass. Their whole bond was fostering on helping and supporting each other, and nothing would have changed that. The true Ellie would have said "thanks for having my back, I appreciate it Joel." Or if she really did say that, big IF, she would of immediately went to Joel after, and said "Look Joel, I was out of line there, I didn't mean what I said back there. Truth is I always needed your help, and I'm sorry for embarrasing you". This whole entire scene makes no sense, and I think it was just a means of Neil spitting on Joel

Character Assassination Event #3: "Bigot Sandwiches"

This is the scene where Jesse tells Ellie to wake up, and that Maria wants to talk to Ellie. She goes into the bar, and Seth wants to apologize of what happened saying "Look, last night, I was drinking too much, and I am trying to say I'm sorry." So Seth gave her a sandwich, and she just gives it to Jesse and calls it "bigot sandwiches". What an asshole. The man is trying to say he is sorry, gave his limited resources to create a sandwich for you, and you just throw it away and give it to Jesse. No, this isn't Ellie. Ellie might have despised Seth a little bit after that, but she would take the sandwich and say "It's alright, Seth". Maybe she would even ask her why he got so triggered at what happened at the dance. You know, a youtuber explained this point pretty well, what if Seth had a daughter he loved who was a lesbian, but her lover abandoned her or something, and Seth saw glimpses about the terrible past he lived, and that's why. Ellie just acted like a complete asshole in this scene, and it pisses me off. And then shortly after Maria asks what is going on with her and Joel, and she says "you know the man really cares about you". It seems as if Ellie didn't really care that much about what Maria said that Joel really cares about Ellie, which should make her rethink things about how much she's been avoiding Joel, although they would of reconciled way before this event happened because this is shortly before Joel died.

Character Assassination Event #4: The Porch Scene

Ok before I get into this scene fully, when this flashback happened, correct me if I am wrong, it was the night before Joel died right? And then the day Joel died was the same day "Character Assassination Event #3" happened, where after Seth apologized to Ellie, they went on patrol, got stuck in a blizzard, smoked pot and weed (the scene that I felt was very unneccessary, because it didn't really add to the plot) and then Joel died shortly after. So why am I explaining this, well because these two events are only seperated by a day but something doesn't add up. When we see what happened right after Maria tells whats going on with her and Joel and she says "everythings fine", but it still feels like she is still severly avoiding Joel. Why didn't Ellie tell her "we are starting to reconcile, and I am trying to forgive him (although ellie would have forgave him way before)." Why does it still seem like she hates Joel. That's the thing with these flashbacks in this game, they just don't flow very well, and in turn are very negative to the story. Alright, now to the porch scene, where Ellie comes up to Joel and checks on him for probabaly the first time in this game, and it was very tense. She asks what Joel is drinking in which he responds "coffee", but shortly after she says "I was supposed to die in that hospital." Tf you talking about Ellie, you did not know you were going to be sacrificed. Why did you say "After all this is done, we can go wherever you want". She also agreed for Joel teaching her to play guitar and swim and earlier in the game she asks if the test samples would "hurt". Then she says "My life would have fucking mattered and you took that from me". *sighs* How do you know your life would have mattered? Let's say IF a BIG IF somehow the vaccine is created, what's going to stop the fireflies from being tyrannical as using this vaccine as a power tool? And what about the hunters? The bandits? People like David's Group? You think they are going to say "oh we will stop fighting/doing these horrible things because a vaccine is shown in their face? Hell NO. They are going to try to take it forcefully for themselves. And just because you get a vaccine, does not mean you will survive. A vaccine doesn't prevent you from being ripped to shreds by a bloater or any other infected out there. It doesn't prevent you from being killed by all the horrible people in this world. And do the fireflies even have a means to mass produce this said vaccine? I don't think they do. They were already in a war with FEDRA that exhausted their resources and Marlene also mentioned that they lost a big portion of her men. And Ellie should have questioned if the fireflies intentions were actually good, because I don't know, they tried to kill Joel, the one person who sacrificed so much to get you there? And the "I'll try to forgive you", really? Ellie would have realized that they have been through too much, sacrificed too much, loved each other too much to take this long just to say "I'll try to forgive you". Like I said, Ellie would have forgave Joel in 2 months maximum, and not saying "I don't think I can forgive you, but I'd like to try."

Final Verdict

Neil despised Joel and Ellie, there is no other explanation. This is just 4 character assassination events, but there is more in this game and it just hurts to see my favorite characters ruined like that. It's wasteful. But, this isn't Joel and Ellie. It's Neil's ego and himself projecting himself as Joel and Ellie. The way they treated Joel in this game was straight miserable, disrespectful, and one of the reasons why I can't touch this absolute garbage fire of a game ever again. This game was 5/10 for me, and only because of the amazing visuals/graphics/AI, gameplay was alright, wasn't really innovative, but story was straight garbage. It makes me really sad that Joel cared for her, but it never seemed like Ellie cared for him back in this game. Joel checked on Ellie multiple times, but Ellie never checked on Joel. How I view it is that Joel and Ellie are living under the same roof, living a happy life, and their fates are sealed as soon as Bruce Straley left. Unless, Neil leaves, and someone competent who cares about these characters somehow brings them back, but that's probabaly not gonna happen anytime soon. So, TLOU2 is not canon and yeah, it was just a really bad fanfiction proven by all the retcons and character assassinations. Neil never understood these characters, Bruce did.

*long rant incoming*

For me video games are supposed to be something that relieves stress, not contributes to even more stress. They are supposed to be fun, so when people like Neil say "we don't use the word fun here", what the hell is the point? Video games are supposed to be FUN, that's the whole point, that is why we play games in the first place. And for me, the first time I played the Last of Us pt II, will be the last time. I am currently in college, but after a really stressful day (which happens a lot), I look to play story games that can relieve my stress like Witcher 3, Uncharted, Last of Us, etc. And now, now, now, I'm not saying I want a happy sunflowers and daisies game, no I don't want that. I'm okay with dark themes, characters dying. But Last of Us had dark themes, but balanced it out with one of the best moments I have ever seen in video games. The cabin scene in pt I, after I got through that I was like "That is cinema", and the jokes Ellie tells Joel, especially the funny comics and trying to ragebait Joel, that was funny. And Ellie's beef with Bill, I found that super funny too. And when Ellie saves Joel getting the medications, and staying by his side and where Joel calls Ellie "baby girl" and hugs her, that melted my heart. So yes, there were moments of sadness, like Sarah's death, Sam and Henry's death, Tess's death, etc, but it balanced it out with these well written characters, the bond they formed with each other, something I can empathize with, and that relieves my stress. That makes the game "fun".

Well, there is NONE OF THAT SHIT IN THE SEQUEL. We had a good opening of Joel telling Tommy what happened, and Joel playing guitar to Ellie, and then the musuem flashbacks, but THAT's IT. I come back from a stressful day to see Joel being treated like garbage, and then he dies in the most contrived way possible. Ellie does something Ellie would never do, and it's just straight miserable to watch. WTF is this sadistic shit, Neil? Oh you think it gets better from here, no TF IT DOES NOT. I am already feeling more stressful than my stressful day at school and that is really saying something (when I played TLOU2 I was in high school). I have to play as Abby for 12 hours, and I am like HELL NO. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing they can do to make me like Abby. The same person who brutually tortured the person that saved you, and doesn't show any remorse. It's like they are shoving something I don't want, like they are trying to make Abby a protaganist, when she is NOT. There are so many better antagonists written better than Abby. Like David who says "get this, a crazy man traveling with a little girl. See, everything happens for a reason." This guy gave me literal chills. The main villain Wild Hunt in Witcher 3 is also way better written. Darth Vader in Star Wars. Voldemort in HP. The Joker from The Dark Knight. Shall I go on? Thing is I could not give a shit about Abby. And you know the one character I kinda liked? Jesse. He was such a good friend to Ellie, but Ellie doesn't treat her like a friend? He dies in shot in the face, BRUH. Like that??? And then Ellie is like "whatever, he died". Oh no, no, no, you'd think the misery ends there. No, Neil wants the player to SUFFER as much as possible. You have to beat up Ellie as Abby, oh fuck off. I had to drop the controller, and I swear tg I was going to punch something, because I was so pissed off. And not to mention the stress I was feeling as well.

Oh and Tommy gets shot in the head, and somehow doesn't die and everybody just teleports to Jackson. Ok so we are at the farmhouse, and I am thinking finally this misery is ending, this is so far a piece of shit game, and then we get a glimpse of Ellie being happy and living a normal life, basically the first time in the game where it isn't just straight depression in misery porn (other than flashbacks). I was thinking, ok we can end here, because I want this to be over, RIGHT. RIGHT????? Well, nope. Because you have to suffer more, more and more. So ellie gets this PTSD dream, then Tommy goes over, and then Ellie goes off for "revenge" again. *sighs of stress, dissapointment, agony*. Okay and we get to the Santa Barbara section, where gameplay was I guess the most fun, because you had an assault rifle and one of the best guns in the game, and then we see Abby at the stake? Shoot her, Ellie, shoot her???? No, we can't shoot her. Why? Because Neil needs to protect his "golden character". So we let her go, watch her free Lev, and then we force Abby to fight us because she shows remorse in killing Joel, when Ellie confronts her. NOW? at THE END OF THE GAME? AW HELL NO. Then we get to this boss fight okay, Ellie loses her two fingers, and then she lets her live because of a flashback she got of Joel? yeah we killed like 300+ people and now, its RIGHT THERE and you won't kill Abby. John Wick wouldn't have hesitated. Now I am telling myself to breathe in and out, don't destroy your controller, don't destroy your TV, and I swear tg I was going to slap everyone who contributed to this TOTAL DUMPSTER FIRE OF A STORY. Yeah and abby gets the brighter ending, of course you get the brighter ending if you are the golden child of Neil. Oh yeah (for the third time), you think you are suffering enough from the total destruction and massacre of Joel and Ellie? Nah, neil says you have to SUFFER EVEN MORE for "rEvEngE Is BaD", when we again teleport to Jackson, Ellie can't even relive the memory of Joel, and leaves his guitar behind. Then we get to the porch scene, where she says "I'll try to forgive you?" And Ellie wouldn't wait for 2 GOD DAMN YEARS to forgive Joel, they were so close that it would have been 2 months maximum. Perhaps the cringiest line was back in the hospital where she says "don't touch me", and I got totally pissed when she says "I don't need your fucking help" at the dance.

So in summary this game was just straight sadistic, and a miserable game to play. I was too emotionally tired at the end, and caused me more stress than studying for a midterm or final that is worth like 60% of my grade and that means there is something severely wrong. Games are meant to be fun and relieve stress, and this game brings more stress into my life. Where's the hopeful and charismatic Ellie? nowhere to be seen. You know what this feels like? To anyone who watched back to the future, this is like falling into a darker alternate universe. I waited multiple years to reconnect with these characters, and they are not themselves, they are darker, and broken. In fact, I still have PTSD with this game. And I was so sick of Ellie this game, because Joel loved her, and she never returned the favor in this game, she didn't act like she returned the unconditional love Joel gave her. And what makes it worse, is the absolute shitty reviews by journalists (who have been getting that money from ND to glaze the shit out of the game), and say its the best game of the century and is a masterpiece. Except Polygon and Forbes, you guys are good. It's not a masterpiece if it divides the fanbase in half and shits on the most beloved characters in gaming. It's more like a "mastershitpiece". I've effectively wasted almost 30 hours of my time and there was no point in this game. Neil ruined this experience fully, and he doesn't give a shit about The Last of Us franchise, and it is evident when they keep making remasters of remasters. The true heroes are the leakers, and maybe I should have listened to them. You know your game is ass when your own employees seek to expose you. And that is when I realized, Neil never knew how to write the bond between Joel and Ellie, it was Bruce Straley. The stark difference in writing quality is laughable. And yes grapics was excellent, although gameplay wasn't that innovative. I'd rather play something with a great story and decent gameplay/graphics rather than play a shitty story with excellent graphics and visuals. This quote perfectly explains this game "it's something about right and wrong, written by people who think they are always right". I just wish Ellie showed more love and treated Joel better in this game, but yeah whatever. Fuck Neil and ND. Just fuck this game as a whole. As Jeff Goldblum from Jurrasic Park says, "That is one big pile of shit". This sequel was probabaly THE WORST GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED PERIOD. We never got to even watch Ellie and Joel watch a movie together. That is the end of my rant.

Why does abby get the happier ending? She cheated with her friends baby daddy, who happened to be her ex. She betrayed people who had known her for years, people who probably called her their friend. Yet she switches sides and kills them with zero remorse at the drop of a hat to save two random kids she has known for 5 minutes. She is a flip flopping psychopath with no consistent morals. The only person she was mad about dying is Owen, the rest she simply did not care at all. She is a villain who somehow gets the happy ending, riding off into the sunset to reunite with her firefly friends, lev by her side, and she suffers no permanent injury or consequences of her revenge or her betrayal. She has next level plot armor the whole game.

Meanwhile, Ellie never gets her revenge, and yet is completely forsaken. Broken mentally and physically, nobody left by her side, and as one last middle finger to her character she loses her fingers and can no longer play guitar, her last connection to Joel now gone.

Tommy never gets his revenge, yet he now has a permanent limp, blinded in one eye, his wife left him, and he is now a bitter lonely man.

So, let me ask you this, why does Ellie and Tommy lose more in pursuit of revenge than Abby loses after getting revenge AND betraying her former group? What message is that supposed to send? If the message is that revenge is bad, then why does Abby more or less get away with no consequences, besides her ex-boyfriend dying, and losing her unrealistically big muscles. She still has the more hopeful ending. She is a villain propped up as a hero by a game writer that doesn't understand how to make relatable characters.

There is a blatant and giant narrative bias against every character except Abby. The game pulls extremely emotionally manipulative methods out to try and make you like her. Ellie is shown doing countless horrible things on her way to get revenge, killing dogs, random people, etc. The game never shows all the horrible things Abby probably did on her way to get revenge, instead the game only shows Abby at her best, and Ellie at her worst. It's unbelievably biased storytelling. Abby is seen petting dogs, playing fetch with dogs, saving some random kids, etc. Ellie bad cause Ellie kill dogs and never plays fetch with them! How people fall for this blatant manipulation and bias is beyond me.

It took Joel and Ellie a year to bond, they travelled across the country together, and by the end you understand why Joel did what he did to save her, whether it was right or wrong. Abby has zero justification to do what she did, she saved those kids out of her own selfish guilt and nothing else. Imagine if Joel had only known Ellie for one day, and then proceeded to wipe out the fireflies to save her, it would make no sense and feel rushed. Which is exactly how they wrote Abbys sorry excuse for a story, they tried desperately to make her a parallel to Joel by showing her saving some kids and standing against a group to do so, but they rushed it so hard it felt unearned and not genuine at all. If anything, it makes her look even worse as a person who acts without thought or remorse.

And this isn't even taking into account the countless actions and decisions that the characters make that nobody with half a brain would ever make. These characters do things that make no sense, stuff the characters would never do. The plot relies on the characters making consistent wrong choices, and convenient coincidences to drive the plot forward. Druckman forced them to do last minute rewrites, and it's painfully obvious at some parts in the plot that barely make sense if at all.
The last minute rewrites to make the game more "inclusive" as Druckman was self admittedly inspired by anita sarkesian and wanted to make changes to reflect her views. Sarkesian believes all games are sexist, racist, and not inclusive enough.

Because in the zombie apocalypse the truly important thing is two lesbians, gender confused children, biology defying muscular women, pregnant women fighting frontline combat, and a male character whose only purpose in the story was to be a sperm donor and then was killed off because his usefulness as a male character was gone. All father figures are killed or taken out of the picture like Jesse, and Joel. The game released on fathers day weekend. Surely just a coincidence right?

You know a game is bad when their own employees leak the plot changes before release in an effort to warn actual fans.

Ellie comes up to Joel one night and says "Hey Joel. I know you lied to me about the vaccine and I understand why because of what happened with Sarah but please tell me what happened at the hospital. I am mad at you, but I know you love me, so I know there has to be more to this story, so please tell me what happened.

Joel sighs and after a moment of struggle, he speaks. You were unconscious and I tried to save you, but next thing I know I was knocked out and woke up on a bed in the hospital. I was told by Marlene that they could make a vaccine and that they were going to harvest your brain while you were still unconscious. She was talking about the "sacrifice for the greater good" and ordered a soldier to march me out without my gear, no weapons, nothing. They were going to kill you, without asking you, so I made a choice. I stopped them, and saved you.

There is a long moment of silence, as Ellie is heartbroken and then Ellie finally speaks, "Marlene was there, and she didn't wake me up? She didn't even let me know or let me say goodbye to you? Did she just see me as a resource? Did she just see me as a package? Did she ever truly care about me?

Ellie breaks down, crying. Joel comes to comfort her, and hugs her but Ellie pushes Joel away and then they don't say anything else for the rest of the evening. She kept thinking she would have given her life for the cure, but with Marlene not waking her up and she kept questioning whether the Fireflies intentions were good or not. Ellie walks off, and for a month she is just silent. Doesn't really talk much to Joel, actually avoiding him a lot.

But then during this month, she goes into deep reflection. She thinks about the pain Joel felt losing Sarah, the good times they had on their adventure together, and back to what happened in the cabin where she said "everybody else that ever cared about her has either died or left her, everyone except for Joel". She reflected on this fear of "being alone" in this world, and thought of the oppurtunities that Joel gave her. She has a life in Jackson, a safe life, with a job she likes, friends, and overall a safe community, and starts to think to herself "maybe this was better than dying for the cure". Ellie goes to sleep later that night, but has a nightmare where she was pinned down and had to watch Joel die, and all of her friends die, and she lost everything and the fear of being alone became true. Ellie then violently woke up and planned on confronting Joel the next night.

She walked up to his porch, finding Joel play the guitar. He looked a bit down, sad and depressed. Once Joel noticed Ellie come up, he became a little more hopeful and said "Hey, kiddo." Ellie starts her conversation by saying she understood fully now, with the fireflies and the fireflies not waking her up, and Marlene selling her out. She says, "Hey Joel, I now understand fully why you did it. I would have done the same, and I am still mad at you, but I'm more mad at what Marlene did and her betrayal."

Ellie continues by saying, "I've just had so much trauma over the years, and you gave me purpose, to live a better life and I had this nightmare last night where I lost you, and I couldn't do anything, and I was so hopeless. Thing is Joel, I don't think I can avoid you any longer, I want to spend as much time with you while you are still here. You're the one who cared for me for who I are, not just because of my immunity. I can't be alone again, it would destroy me..." And before Ellie can go on, Joel hugs Ellie again in a heartwarming way and says "I'm not going nowhere, kiddo. Ellie then says, "I forgive you, dad." Joel's eyes tear up and their bond is repaired.

In this sub, hating the game is a big reason why we gather but it is not the only big reason. We gather because we loved Joel and Ellie so much in our hearts enough to grieve what Neil took from them and all of Bruce Straley's work. Our community is a place where dissapointment becomes connection and where shared hurt becomes shared feeling.

I came to this sub after the devastating events of TLOU2, the absolute terrible story with the same ache in my chest, that somehow made the weight easier to carry. Only a community that cared about these characters, obviously more than Neil and we care so much to express our criticisms in the way we do.

And yes we laugh, rant, rewrite stories, and tell ourselves pt II is not Canon, but the important part is we do it together​ and thats what makes this place feel like home.

I will forever hate neil for causing me misery and destroying my favorite duo in all of games. Joel and Ellie was written so well (thanks Bruce straley) and they care for each other so much which is why part II doesnt make sense. No I dont buy Ellie avoiding joel for 2 years, and becoming the pissy teen she was in whatever the hell pt 2 was. The real Joel and Ellie bond was so heartwarming and just flat out beautiful. Joel and Ellie wasnt just "fictional characters" to me. They were family. They brought me happiness. And without this sub, I wouldn't be able to rant on all the game's issues the way I do now, and I feel like I have a support group around me when I grieve about the character assassination of Joel and Ellie

In my mind, Joel and Ellie are living happily together on the same roof and have accepted each other as father and daughter. Oh yeah and fuck neil and fuck Abby.