u/InTheChairAgain

There's a whole myriad of rivers and streams in Beleriand .Is there any good map that includes all the crossings?

How do you get from Tol Sirion to Eglarest for instance? (Let's assume this is before Nargothrond build their bridge). You'd need to cross the Narog, the Ginglith and the Nenning (Edit: I guess you could do that at Eglarest though). Where are the logical places to do that?

On most Maps you have the ford of Brithiach, and the crossings of Teiglin, both close to Brethil. These appear to the main passage that a larger force can take to get down into Talath Dirnen. Where do you go after that? Do you have to find some way over the Narog and then go all the way north to the Nuath around Ginglith?

Morgoth send forces against the Havens two times. First time is arond the time of the First Battle of Beleriand. It's then said they went west in the plains between Sirion and Narog they plundered far and wide, and it's to be understood I guess that from there, they somehow crossed over Ginglith to reach the Sea, since, the orc-host in the west was victorious and had driven Cirdan to the rim of the Sea.

The other time is after the Nirnaeth. At that time they are said to have passed south through Hithlum and Nevrast. (There's the question how that was possible also, but it belong perhaps not to this topic.)

So how do they do it the first time? Do they have to head north-west after Teiglin, and across near the pools of Ivrin? Then along the southern feet of the Ered Wethrin, westwards, and then south between Nenning and Brithon?

Then there is the Battle of Tumhalad. It's said in the Children of Hurin that Orcs assualt Brethil, seeking to secure the Crossings of Teiglin for their further advance. So I'm guessing that's the way they take down to Talath Dirnen.

Also though, Glaurung came into the north vales of Sirion under the shadows of Ered Wethrin he defiled the Eithel Ivrin and thence passed into the realm of Nargothrond and burned the Talath Dirnen. Glaurung perhaps is large enough to cross most rivers without a bridge?

So does he pass down near the Ered Wethrin, while his troops head over to the crossings of Teiglin? Or does he have troops with him on the more western path? They'd have to cross several streams, including Lithir, Malduin, Glithui and Teiglin up north.

There are known to be passes over the Ered Wethrin, near Lithir and Glithui (These are used by Hurin and Turin), but I don't know if those passes emerge on the north or south side of their respective stream? Also they wouldn't help someone traveling east of the mountains going southwards. Are these streams smaller and therefore easier to cross?

After battle starts the Elves are driven back to the field of Tumhalad, so I assume this means they're driven across the Narog somewhere? They are then penned between the Narog and Ginglith, suggesting there was no way across the Ginglith for them? There seems to be a way across for Turin though, since he speeds back to Nargothrond.

There's also the stream Rivil, which I assume can be crossed somewhere since there are mentions of Orc hosts coming up from South being driven into the fens of Serech. Or do they cross the Sirion near Tol Sirion, and then head north under the feet of the Ered Wethrin, since Celegorm is coming down on them from Eithel Sirion?

While there are plenty of candidates to throw around for the Nine Rings, as discussed in the Khamûl thread https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1tb9omo/regarding_the_origin_of_kham%C3%BBl/

It got me wondering about the more rarely asked question. Where did Sauron scrounge up Seven (or Six if you accept the alternative story for Thrors Rings) Dwarf-lords to hand out Rings to? And in the Second Age too.

Especially assuming he probably couldn't go to the Blue Mountains after he was driven back from Eriador in the War of Sauron and the Elves, but for the sake of it let's say he turned up at the Centennial Dwarf October Gathering or something, who would be there to receive them?

There's Moria, but they just fought against him in the War. The Dwarves of Nogrod were all but eradicated in the War of the Jewels. The Dwarves of Belegost might perhaps still be around in the Blue Mountains, so there could be one. Gundabad perhaps at this time another? So two. Were there Dwarf halls in the Grey Mountains and the Iron Hills? Three, four. Then we start running out of Mountains on the Map. Unless there Dwarves down by the White Mountains maybe.

There's the Mountains of Rhun, but I've never heard anything about Dwarves there.

Still there were Seven houses of the Dwarves. Assuming The People of Durin is one, the the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod two more, that leaves us with four more further East, or else to the North or to the South. (Disregarding Mim and his family.) There is also mention of Dwarves fighting for Sauron in the Last Alliance. (Just not of Durins house.)

Then there are other curious references, like the the Seven great hoards of the Dwarves, whatever those were?

We also know that before the year 2845 of the Third Age, 3 or 4 of the Dwarf rings had been destroyed by Dragon fire (possibly pointing to locations far North up towards the Withered Heath?), and the other 2 or 3 had been reclaimed by Sauron.

So what are peoples thoughts on these Rings?

Which Dwarf lords got them?
Why is one of them called Thrors Ring? (Is this the Ring of the House of Durin?)
Did one go to a former Lord of Belegost, and one to a former Lord of Nogrod? When, where and how did they lose them?
Did others go to Dwarf lords of other Kingdoms in the North, near where Dragons live?
Did others go to Dwarf lords in the far East that just don't enter these stories?
Did Sauron make war on them to regain the Rings?
Did each Dwarf-lord with a Ring gather riches into a huge hoard?
How many Rings were left unreclaimed or not destroyed by the beginning of the Third Age?

Those are probably some of the areas where there is the least information around.

As presented on this page
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Heraldry

It's suggested that because Finwë's design is a winged Sun, that they were made with the later cosmogony in mind, although doesn't it seem equally possible that the device could represent a fruit or flower of Laurelin, since the Noldor are said to make their devices while the Trees are still in bloom?

It's not said why they made one for Elwë (Assuming it was the Noldor in Eldamar who made this device?), though it's suggested that the winged Moon, (or possibly the winged fruit or flower of Telperion?) is made to pair or complement the device of Finwë. Is it right that Elwë should have only half the points of Finwë?

Notably missing (on that assumption) is a device for Ingwë. With the fruits of both Trees, or the Sun and the Moon already taken, what would have been a suitable device for him? Something like the top of Taniquetil as drawn in this image? https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Taniquetil
Or perhaps something else associated with the Vanyar or the High King of all Elves?

Moving down one generation

The device of Fëanor is reasonably easy to interpret. It has the eight pointed star of Fëanor in the middle, (probably representing a Silmaril) giving out light of many colors, and the flames reaching out to the points are also explainable. What do you make of the two rings? There is an inner blue one, and an outer black one. Not sure if these have a meaning or if they're only borders for the yellow shine(?)/field(?) between them? What does that yellow represent?

Fingolfin's device is a little more difficult. It has the similar two rings as Fëanor's does, with the same yellow shine(?)/field(?) in between, only the inner one is light red with white highlights and the outer light blue (I think?) with white highlights. I also has the same flames that Fëanor's does, why is this? Then it also have some very red flames in the center. What do you make of those?

Then there's Finarfins, which has the same two rings that Fingolfin does, light blue and light red, only without they yellow shine(?)/field(?) in between. (And so close together they almost could be considered one ring.) What do you think Finarfin missing the yellow shine(?)/field(?) signifies? The colors of his device look like they might be something closely fitting the Vanyar, which I guess makes sense, since he shared their appearance.

The blue star device which is instead used for Eärendil and Elrond, is also appeatently considered as a possible device for Finarfin, and if one accepts the parentage of Gil-Galad as being of the House of Finarfin, it's notable that his device is also blue and white. Would it have been better to keep the Blue star for Finarfin? On his ring that Felagund gives Barahir, there are golden flowers and green gems.

Finally some thoughts in the Womens devices. Both of Luthien's look quite good, and Idril's blue one especially seem to work very well. The page mentions the blue cornflowers from the golden harvest, which I'm not sure what that refers to? The blue and green colors might pehaps fit with the green Elessar stone that she was said to have carried?

Melian's device is perhaps not as effective. It's mentioned to perhaps represent a single flower of Telperion, but I don't know. The lozenge in it especially make it seem a bit harsh, and the contrasting colors almost reminds of chinaware. Did she have any special connection with the White Tree? Perhaps her device works better for you?

Edit: Sorry title should have said, The Would they come back list?

Tried to make a list of Elves known to have died, and order them in likelihood to come back to life in Valinor order, based on what little information is available, and trying to avoid too much speculation.

Such a list is by necessity highly subjective, (and pointless), but needing some kin d of sounding board, I post it here, to hear arguments of where I am off, or who I forgot to include?

Two or three of the ones in category F might perhaps be controversial.

A. Said to have come back to life.

01 Glorfindel (Died in battle with Balrog while defending the unarmed. Body lost. Known to have come back with a new body. We meet him near Rivendell after all)

02 Finrod (Died in battle with Werewolves in defence of Beren. Body devoured. Said to have come back, to walk with his father Finarfin in Eldamar)

03 Míriel (Died from unbearable exhaustion. Body preserved. Said to have come back to life, and perhaps the first to do so, though probably not in a new body)

B. Likely to be allowed to come back if they heeded the summons of Mandos, and desired it, and if they did no evil

04 Gil Galad (Died in combat with Sauron. Body burned. Born in Beleriand. Led the main opposition against Sauron in the second age)

05 Beleg (Died by the sword under unfortunate circustances. Body buried. Performed many heroic deeds and was a friend of Men)

06 Denethor (Died defending at Amon Ereb. Body buried? Led his people over the Misty Mountains to join up with Thingol.)

07 Mablung (Died defending the treausry of Doritah. Body buried? Performed many heroic deeds. Perhaps some regret there for his part in the Turin saga)

08 Amroth (And perhaps Nimrodel?) (Died by drowning. Body drowned. Some regret there for the loss of Nimrodel, though if she also died they might be reunited in Valinor)

09 Amdir (Died in battle by the Dead Marshes. Body rotting in the Dead Mashes? If the foul arts of the Dead Marshes are no obstacle he might return in Valinor)

10 Oropher (Died in hasty charge at the Black Gates. Body discarded? Perhaps some regret on not cooperating with Gil Galad, but no major obstacle to returning in Valinor)

C. Defied the Prophecy of the North (Though so did Glorfindel and Finrod), but still likely to be allowed to comeback if desired

11 Elenwë (Died in the Crossing of Helcaraxë. Body drowned and frozen. Wife of Turgon. The only Vanya to defy the Prophecy of the North)

12 (Enerdhil (Most likeley died in the fall of Gondolin. Body lost. After Fëanors death the greatest craftsman of the Noldor. Maker of the Elessar) Note! Not stated to have died)

14 Gelmir (Put to death by Morgoths forces in front of Barad Eithel. Body mutilated. Fought in the Bragollach. Suffered in Captivity in Angband)

15 Angrod (Died in the Bragollach. Body burned? Took no part in the kinslaying. One of Morgoths staunchest enemies)

16 Ecthelion (Died in the fall of Gondolin. Body drowned. Fought Gothmog to death, One the most valiant of the Noldor)

17 Egalmoth (Died at the Third Kinslaying. Body buried? One of the most valiant of the Noldor)

18 Penlod (Died in the fall of Gondolin. Body lost. Valiant defender of Gondolin)

19 Duilin (Died in the fall of Gondolin. Body lost. Valiant defender of Gondolin)

20 Talagand (Salgant) (Most likely died in the Fall of Gondolin. Body lost. Not valiant in the defence of Gondolin) (Note! Possbly survives for a while as the buffoon of Morgoth?)

21 Turgon (Died in the fall of Gondolin. Body broken? One of the leaders of the Exiles. May regret his pride when he would not leave Gondolin)

D. Unwillingly did acts that might have caused evil, requiring a longer period of waiting, correction and healing

22 Celebrimbor (Died in the fall of Ost-in-Edhil. Body tortured, and used as a banner. Part maker of several Rings that would give Sauron dominance over people. May have been present at first kinsalying?)

23 Fingon (Died at the Nirnaeth. Body trodden into the mire. Rescued Maidros. Drove back Glaurung. King of the Noldor in Beleriand. Took part in the first Kinslaying)

24 Argon (Arakáno) (Died in the Battle of the Lammoth. Body buried? In the Vanguard of the Noldor in Beleriand. Took part in the first Kinslaying)

E. Willingly did acts of evil, requiring a very long time of waiting, correction and healing

25 Saeros (Died while attempting to leap a deep cleft of a tributary to Esgaduin. Body broken. One of Thingols counselors. Attempted to murder Turin)

26 Eöl (Died when bring cast off a Precipe from Gondolin. Body buried? Renowned blacksmith. Maker of Anglachel and Anguriel. Attempted to murder Maeglin. Caused the death of Aredhel)

27 Maegln (Died thrown of the walls of Gondolin by Tuor. Body broken? Fought in the Nirnaeth. Made the Gate of Steel. Attempted to sieze Idril. Betrayed Gondolin)

F. Most likely would not want to come back to life, due to loss of loved ones or other reasons

28 Orodreth (Died in the Battle of Tumhalad. Body burned? King of Nargothrond. One of the Lambengolmor. Would not want to come back unless Finduilas does, or his wife arrives in Valinor)

29 Gwindor (Died in the Battle of Tumhalad. Body burned? Fought in the Nirnaeth. Captive in Angband. Loved Finduilas, and would not want to come back unless she does. Perhaps not even then)

30 Aredhel (Died in Gondolin from a poisoned javelin thrown by Eöl. Body buried White Lady of the Noldor. Would not want to come back unless Maeglin (and perhaps Eöl) does)

31 Finduilas (Died pinned to a tree by an Orc spear near the Crossings of Teiglin. Body buried. Loved Turin, and would not want to come back since he can't)

32 Fingolfin (Died at the Gates of Angband. Body buried. High King. Key player in the Unrest of the Noldor. Took on Morgoth in rage, wrath and despair. Would not want to come back. Finarfin is now King of the Noldor)

33 Thingol (Died before the Sack of Menegroth. Body buried. Married to Melian. Sent Beren on the quest for a Silmaril. Would not want to come back because Luthien can't and Melian forsook her body)

G. Would not want to come back to life and willingly did acts of evil

34 Amras (Died in the burning of the ships at Losgar. Body burned. Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Perhaps intended to repent? Took part in the first Kinslaying)

35 Caranthir (Died in the Second Kinslaying. Body buried? Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Took part in the first and second Kinslaying)

36 Celegorm (Died in the Second Kinslaying. Body buried? Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Took part in the first and second Kinslaying. Attempted to murder Beren)

37 Curufin (Died in the Second Kinslaying. Body buried? Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Took part in the first and second Kinslaying. Attempted to murder Luthien)

38 Damrod (Died in the Third Kinslaying. Body buried? Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Took part in the first, second and third Kinslaying)

39 Maidros (Died casting himself into a fiery chasm. Body lost. Swore the Oar Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Took part in the first, and led the second and third Kinslaying. Wilfully took his life over giving up the Silmaril)

H. Known to not want to or be allowed come back to life

40 Fëanor (Died in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath. Body consumed by his spirit. Key player in the Unrest of the Noldor. Swore the Oar Swore the Oath of Fëanor. Led the first Kinslaying. His spirit remains in the Halls of Mandos)

41 Finwë (Died at Formenos smote down by Morgoth. Body destroyed. First King of the Noldor. Abides in the Halls of Mandos, so that Miriel could be released)

42 Aegnor (Died in the Bragollach. Body burned? Remained unwed for Andreths sake, and even after death, would forever remain in the Halls of Waiting)

43 Luthien (Died when her spirit fled her body. Body buried. She was allowed the fate of Men and has left the World, and can't come back)

Edit: 2026-04-28 Small update, and Elenwë added.