Comparison of Shakespeare and Contemporaries and Sitcoms

Something that stuck with me from what I believe was an episode of The History of European Theatre podcast with Kay Daly.

There was a comparison made between Shakespeare and Jonson and how the former is like Northern Exposure and the latter like Seinfeld.

I can kind of see what the comparison is going for (feel good character-driven romantic comedy versus "no hugging, no learning").

But I think this runs into the obvious issue that Seinfeld is way more popular than Northern Exposure, but Shakespeare is (at least for the past few centuries) way more popular than Jonson.

I feel like the comparison might work better if Shakespeare is Friends and Jonson is Seinfeld.

But I also think that Jonson is distinctly edgy/alienating and has a very political satire bent.

So, I'm going to put it out there that Jonson is more like South Park.

And I think Middleton might be more of the Seinfeld, since his city comedies have vibrant if not necessarily well-rounded characters.

Or maybe Middleton is Community (working in similar territory as Shakespeare but more meta and with a sharper edge)?

My last thought is that while obviously it's a different era of tv, I wonder if Shakespeare might be better compared to like Parks and Recreation or The Good Place - both because of the feel good character-based comedy. But also because it is seen as having intellectual value.

Thoughts?

reddit.com
u/KaiLung — 9 days ago

Trying to figure out the meaning of Oior / Parallels to Fifth Head of Cerberus?

I'm currently reading the Latro books and was intrigued by Oior's introduction warning Latro about sorcerous werewolves ("Neurians") and how they have hidden themselves among the Cimmerians but then turns out to be one himself.

I recently read Fifth Head of Cerberus, and this strongly reminded me of how that novel uses werewolves as a metaphor for a possible or implied twist in which alien shapeshifters have taken over a society and they no longer realize it and so hunt for themselves.

Is there something more it than Wolfe seemingly finding a theme that he liked (presumably partly because of his own name)?

For what it's worth, I also suspected that Wolfe might be partly drawing from the soldier/werewolf in The Satyricon, which is one of the first recorded literary examples, and you can see how it influenced both the Medieval "werewolf as sorcerer" idea and the modern conception of "lycanthropy as a dissociative identity disorder curse".

reddit.com
u/KaiLung — 3 months ago

Question about Helen's face post-Trojan War

I haven't seen the Nolan Odyssey film yet but I've heard there's some detail that Helen has facial scars that are supposed to imply that she was beaten by the Greeks (possibly Menelaus specifically) at some point after the Trojan War ended.

And while that seems out of left field, I recently got the graphic novel adaptation of The Odyssey by Gareth Hinds, and in his version, Helen wears a veil over her face, and as far as I can tell, she's the only woman depicted as styled like that.

So, I was curious whether there was some classical source that said that Helen covered her face (to avoid launching further ships?) or was disfigured in some way after the Trojan War.

Edit - Just to clarify, I am aware that this is not an element of Homer's Odyssey. When I say "classical source", I'm using that in a very broad way to mean anything Ancient Greek / Ancient Roman / Byzantine.

reddit.com
u/KaiLung — 3 months ago
▲ 11 r/asoiaf

[Spoilers TWOW] Edward Brampton as an inspiration in the Young Griff plotline?

Through some various history podcasts (most relevantly Tudoriferous) and the like I've learned about Edward Brampton. As suggested by the rather short Wikipedia page, he's kind of a shadowy figure in the historical record.

But basically, he was this Portuguese Jewish merchant who moved to England and converted and somehow along the way became some kind of friend/associate of Edward IV and has a rumored role in educating and promoting Perkin Warbeck during the timeframe when he had fled to the Continent. And an earlier rumored connection to the "Princes in the Tower" (either with murdering them or spiriting them away, depending on who you ask).

I realize this is kind of a stupid question in so far as Young Griff is pretty obviously inspired by Perkin Warbeck/Lambert Simnel plus the oddly parallel case of Guccio Baglioni in France, but Brampton seems to me a lot like Illyrio, but with some Jon Connington thrown in, in terms of him having a friendly connection with the overthrown dynasty.

And needless to say, I can see parallels with Varys' supposed baby switch in the ambiguity of Brampton's conduct towards the Princes in the Tower.

Lastly, as a side note, based on reading about Brampton and Thomas Cromwell (at least Hillary Mantel's version of him), I can kind of buy Bronn ending up on the Small Council, since Brampton and Cromwell had this similar thing of "past as a lovable scoundrel/cut throat" (which nobles presumably found entertaining) turned statesman.

Edit - Also, at least in John Ford's Perkin Warbeck play (and I guess in some historical counts), there's the suggestion that Perkin was actually Jewish, which I assume was leveled based on antisemitism (since being Jewish would be viewed as a bad thing), but I would guess also had something to do with Brampton.

Which makes me think about the fan theories about Young Griff being Illyrio's son.

reddit.com
u/KaiLung — 5 months ago

Is there a historical basis or inspiration for Kipling's antisemitic poem in the novel "The Burglar Who Liked to Quote Kipling"?

I started reading the Bernie Rhodenbar series of mystery/heist novels by Lawrence Block and I'm at the beginning of the third one, titled The Burglar Who Liked to Quote Kipling.

The MacGuffin in the story is a fictional Kipling poem called "The Ballad of Fort Bucklow", which is an antisemitic screed.

In the historical background provided in the novel, they discuss Kipling's (historical) participation in the anti-Bolshevik Liberty League then go onto say that he had a brief flirtation with being an antisemitic conspiracy theorist and wrote the (again fictional) poem at this time.

Is there a historical basis for this? I'm not so much asking whether there was any moments of anti-semitism in his writings, but more so about the specific idea that there was a brief time where he went all in (and then disavowed it).

I did see from a "wikiwalk" that one of the members of the Liberty League, George Clarke did adopt the kind of views the novel attributes to Kipling.

u/KaiLung — 5 months ago