"Did Lord Randyll command you to follow me again?"
"He commanded me to stay away from you. Lord Randyll is of the view that you might benefit from a good hard raping."
"Then why would you come with me?"
Ned didn't want a bounty on Dany because she was just a child. Robert didn't want to sit around and let a Targaryen rule over a Dothraki army. So why not put a bounty on Khal Drogo? He definitely wasn't innocent, so Ned would be happy. And it would mean the Khalasar would no longer have any desires on Westeros, so Dany lives out her days in Vaes Dothrak, posing no threat to Robert's rule.
The idea of Young Griff/fAegon is something GRRM set up a very long time ago, certainly in 1998 during A Clash of Kings
> A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"
> "A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."
And in 2000, GRRM basically gave it away;
> "I was wondering if you could answer (or take the "fifth") one teeny little question I've been dying to ask for the past year: Are Aegon and Rhaenys, Elia's children, well and truly dead?"
> GRRM: "All I have to say is that there is absolutely no doubt that little Princess Rhaenys was dragged from beneath her father's bed and slain."
So, Aegon surviving was a part of the plan for a long time. However....
Whats the point?
The central mystery of the series is R+L=J and Jon being Rhaegar’s son, and therefore being able to ride a dragon, play some magical role in the Long Night, and possess a plausible claim to the Iron Throne.
So why did GRRM feel the need to introduce another surviving "son of Rhaegar" plotline? Why spend so much narrative energy on "Aha! Rhaegar’s other son is (most likely not) alive, but this other guy is impersonating him"?
It just feels a bit weird. Why couldn't Jon simply do the story beats Young Griff is being set up to do? Then it hit me.
When the show said Jon's birth name was Aegon, a lot of people thought it was totally ridiculous and D&D just made it up. Two Aegons? But I think the books may make that duplication very meaningful.
I made a post about this before, but a theory that's been out there for a while is that Lyanna named Jon, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar probably believed the child would be a girl, which is why after Aegon is born, he looks at Dany and says;
> He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."
A girl completing the original three heads of the dragon alongside Rhaenys and Aegon. That’s why his first two children were named after the Conqueror siblings.
Now try to imagine Lyanna's position at the Tower of Joy after Jon is born;
Rhaegar is dead.
Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon are dead.
The child expected to be a girl is instead a boy.
So Lyanna just chooses the quintessential male Targaryen royal name for her son, and the one Rhaegar associated with prophecy, kingship, and the PtwP;
> "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
> "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
> "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."
I think Young Griff needs to appear first as "Aegon VI," a term which GRRM himself uses when discussing characters from the books who never appeared in the show.
> There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.
Young Griff will appear as the returned son of Rhaegar. He introduces to Westeros the idea that a son of Rhaegar survived and is here to deliver them from disaster
But he is a false savior, since we know he is one of the "lies" Dany will slay. And, so after his fall, Westeros will descend even further into chaos due to figures like Euron, and with the Long Night arriving, the real hidden heir emerges;
Jon as Aegon VII.
Seven Kingdoms, Seven Gods and a Seventh Aegon to fight in the Long Night. I think that's why GRRM always have needed both plotlines simultaneously, and two sons of Rhaegar
Jon in the books is remarkably different to Jon in the show. He is very smart, exceedingly fair and dutiful, he is cunning and sarcastic, sometimes a bit ruthless and he is very ambitious. He doesn’t know about his parentage yet, but will soon. Taking his book character into account, I’m thinking about what it will do to his perception of Ned Stark. Will he forgive his uncle never telling him about his mother and father, trusting him so little in this? Or only wanting to tell him once he can’t be a danger to Robert Baratheon? Not even telling him that his mother had loved him? Taking away his chance to get to know Aemon as family, a great-great-great uncle? To choose to go to Essos instead of the Wall, to look for the other side of his family? Will Jon feel betrayed? Will he question the love of his 'father' Ned Stark?
I know that Ned chose all this to protect Jon, but purely from Jon’s perspective, what was too much? What will he be thankful for and what will he resent? Especially as he has always suffered under the thought of being a bastard, a stain on Lord Starks honour.
I quite enjoyed the portrayal of the Dragonseeds in Season 2 of HotD, in particular the portrayal of Hugh Hammer is quite intriguing as I would argue it is the strongest improvement of the source material in making him the son of Saera Targaryen. That makes Hugh riding Vermithor both more fitting and ironic simultaneously. Fitting that Jaehaerys grandson is Vermithor's rider. But ironic that Vermithor went with the grandson of Jaehaerys that Jaehaerys refused to acknowledge.
But going beyond that I also speculate that this season we will get more into Hugh's parentage and that slight entitlement which makes more sense for why he had delusions of the Crown than in Fire & Blood. A distant relative of some Targaryen is a long shot for the crown even with the biggest dragon, but the grandson of Jaehaerys riding Jaehaerys' dragon? It still is crazy, but I can more understand Hugh's ambition.
But what prompted me to speculate is this, we know that Hugh will betray Rhaenyra, but his teaser poster is Burn Love. So does Hugh accidentally kill his wife, and does that drive him to betray the Blacks, or does she die and that very fact cause him to snap and pull a Bells on Tumbleton?
Jaime Lannister might genuinely be the most overrated “deep” character I’ve ever seen in TV. People talk about his redemption arc like it’s Breaking Bad level writing but he spends 8 seasons being obsessed with his sister, says one sad speech in a bath, then immediately runs back to her and dies.
I genuinely think fans saw “attractive man with trauma” and convinced themselves he was morally complex. Half his development is basically headcanon at this point.
It's described as the largest castle ever built, so it definitely has the space inside to fit a town or even just a village. It makes logical sense as well, the Riverlands is constantly raveged by war, and I'd bet that the average smallfolk would rather live inside the walls of Harrenhal than out in an exposed village. It's at the crossroads of Westeros as well so it's not like it's some place far out of the way that no one would want to live. I can see how people wouldn't want to live there because they think it's haunted, however I find it hard to believe that no one at all would be willing to move there if given the opportunity. If anything the Lord/Lady of Harrenhal should promote this as well, because if there is people living inside that they can tax, then that would help fund the upkeep of the huge castle. I know George isn't the best at working out the economics and logistics of his worldbuilding, but I just feel like this is such a missed opportunity to have a small town inside these giant oversized ruins of a castle.
I'll start with Rhaegar hes really not as bad as people try to fit there headcannon to make him out to be. I usually see these two blends “tragic flawed romantic prince” which is what George seems to be intending with what hes said and the “selfish monster.” The books themselves are much more conflicted than either version.
I just checked out Preston Jacob's fanfic project and, evenot though he's 35 chapters in (the book with the most chapter has 82) and he's advancing the plot much more in his chapter that George has in the previews, he's still nowere near half of the book, it all feels like the begining. I'm generally an optimist, but I see no way for George to finish the book if he insists on only having seven books in the series.
Barristan has a nickname/epithet as does Jaime, if the other five Kingsguard members had nicknames what would you give them?
Barristan the Bold
Jaime Lannister The Kingslayer
Boros Blount...
Meryn Trant...
Arys Oakheart...
Preston Greenfield...
Mandon Moore...
I kinda feel like he is overhated due to his supposed religious zealotry.....Most of the criticism against him seems to be made by the nobility propaganda to tarnish his image yet their opinions are contradicted by his deeds
It was said that he wanted to have crusade against the north yet he never showed any desire toward violence and conflict he was pacifist who walked barefoot like Jesus in the desert to dorne the ancestral ennemy just to rescue his brother peacefully, and even initiated the right step to peace with dorne that daeron will later conclude. It shows that baelor was actually a able ruler who could think and had a political instinct. He was not a idiot
burning erotic books and imprisoning his sister in a tower when he was in a very weak state already to malnutrition shows that he had rigid religious beliefs but can we call him mad for that? It shows his coherence with his religious belief
we call it "zealotry" There is no record of him showing prejudice or violence doesn't share his faith like melisandre. Baelor seemed like a pacifist. No other kings did more for the betterment of the smallfolk than him
Many kings in real history were extremely zealous like saint Louis or Edward the confessor were zealous and far harsher than baelor but were actually called great stateman
I mean if daeron name his firstborn son after him surely he cannot be as crazy as people think?
People know that the pitch for ASOIAF was a trilogy covering three major arcs of story: The War of the Five Kings, Daenerys' Invasion, and the Others' Invasion. But the story ballooned and the first three books cover the War of the Five Kings.
The fourth book stalled, a time jump was axed, and eventually was split geographically and even then ADWD was gutted without an end to many of the stories. These two massive books don't cover the story GRRM planned to tell in one...And while there is a lot to love in AFFC and ADWD, I feel like a lot of it could've been released as supplementary novellas.
One thing I love in the first three books is that GRRM does not feel the need to tell us every little thing that happens directly, there is a lot to the stories but the books are lean. Robb wins battles and we learn of it from other people having the news delivered. GRRM says if there is one thing he would add to the first three books, it would have been Robb as a POV character which, while potentially interesting, would have tanked the pacing and bloated the story.
Why did he start to focus on relatively inconsequential details in Books 4 & 5? Why not gut some fluff that could be released in a collection later down the line, focus a few books on Dany's invasion, and leave a few more books for a good conclusion if there's that much story?
Imo prince baelor.
Bloodraven was effective and ruled for many years as hand but I think baelor during the 10 or so years he was hand, he helped the country recover from the first blackfyre rebellion. Given how bloody the first one was it's no doubt that he must have been good at ruling and we all know how good of a person he is.
George literally made the perfect heir just to kill him off
As the title say, I genuinely can’t fathom how this is everyone’s least favorite book in the series! I just finished my reread and it does so much for the world building and expanding the scope of the characters. Can you guys explain why you dislike it so?
!>The Maid Of Tarth is my favorite character in the series so I am a little biased>!
I have a question about hair color dominance within the universe. So within the marrige between Alicent and Viserys i they only have blond children together, which would show blond is the dominate hair color in the relationship. But when Daeron the good and Myriah have 4 children, and they have 3 blond kids and one brunette, which would show brunette is dominant over ginger... right? but in the case of the starks eddard only has 5 trueborn childern with Catelyn and 4 of the 5 are ginger ..?????????????? Can someone that actually understands biology beyond a high school understanding explain what hair color is considered dominate.
Just got to this part on wiki, which used to evade me.
"At the age of sixteen, Oberyn was found in bed with the lover of Lord Edgar Yronwood, so the lord challenged him to a duel. The duel was to first blood, given the prince's youth and high birth, and both took cuts. Edgar's wounds festered and killed him. Oberyn has been known as the "Red Viper" ever since by friends and foes alike, due to rumors that he fought the duel with a poisoned blade. Afterward, Oberyn was sent to Oldtown and then to Lys in temporary exile (though none called it such) in order for House Martell to make peace with House Yronwood, and Prince Quentin Martell was sent as a ward to Yronwood."
...
I am sorry, what? A prince of Martell fought on a duel head of primary vassal House over a lover (fine so far). Duel was to first blood. Prince abused the rules and used poison to kill the lord.
This is, by every legal definition:
Murder with intent - House Martell, suzerain, murdered one of principle vassals using poison
Sacrilege - before the duel each party gives oaths, and he broke them by intentionally breaking the "first blood" part, with full intent
In larger westeros, this is Prince Joffrey challenging Ned Stark to a duel to first blood, poisoning him with a scratch and having him die right after. Or prince Maekar poisoning the Laughing Storm on a duel.
And the result was, instead of immediate rebellion or appeal to royal justice - which at the time Targarien provided not terribly, mad king wasn't mad yet - they just... got a hostage and ate open murder of their lord? Just like that? Without even forcing Oberyn to take the black for duel oath breaking?
House Yronwood are either the biggest bitches in Dorne, or Martells paid royal ransom and water rights for half the river on top of that. I've no idea how this didn't immediately escalated to blood feud war to kill Oberyn by sons of Edgar. If they let Martells to just murder their lords casually, everyone will start doing it.
Rhaegar leaving three kingsguard to guard his mistress and his bastard that's he's not even sure will survive over his 2 trueborn children and he believes Aegon to be ptwtp but knowingly endangers him
What exactly is “dutiful lovemaking”? A lack of passion?
I find that odd considering they had like five kids, does this mean anything?
I wanted to see what everyone else thought Dany’s arc would be in TWOW. I’ve been wondering about it after my reread of ADWD.
I think it’s pretty obvious that she will be returning to Vaes Dothrak because of the Quaithe prophecy (to go forward, you must go back) and because it’s not like Drogon is letting her return to Meereen any time soon. But how will she go back? Will it be as a captive like in the show or will she go of her own accord to try and unite the Dothraki behind her? If she does unite the Dothraki as the Khal of Khals, how will she do it?
After her arc with the Dothraki, she will need to go back to Meereen because she has unfinished business there and once again because of the Quaithe prophecy (to go west, you must go east). What will she do once she gets there? I’m guessing she will rain fire down on the masters since peace failed, but does she just stop with Meereen or does she take back Yunkai and Astapor too on her way to Westeros? Will she also destroy the masters of New Ghis (this would be a bit out of her way, but they would pose a threat to her liberated people)? Volantis feels like a Chekhov’s Gun since it is so well known for slavery, is in the path to Westeros, is already established as one of Dany’s enemies, and has slaves there waiting for her coming. She has to do something about it, but what? Could she also go after the other free cities like Lys and Tyrosh since they also practice slavery?
How will she handle Hizdahr? Will he even still be alive when she gets there? Victarion certainly has no objections to killing him, and if Daario is still alive after the Battle of Fire, he would also want Hizdahr dead, if not out of jealousy, then for the poisoning (whether that was truly Hizdahr or not).
If Hizdahr is no longer in the picture, will Dany marry Victarion Greyjoy? She will need the Iron Fleet if she means to take her army to Westeros, but is she willing to pay his price for them? She’s already done the political alliance marriage with Hizdahr, and her arc is clearly moving away from such diplomatic approaches with her Fire and Blood revelations in the Dothraki Sea. Will she take the Iron Fleet from him by force? How will she react to the Dragonbinder horn? Will the Dragonbinder horn even work as intended?
How will she react to the return of Jorah and will she like his gift of Tyrion, or will she have his head off?
How will she react to Tyrion in general? He did win the Second Sons back to her side, and he killed his father who was responsible for the sack of KL and the death of her brother’s children. But then again, he is a Lannister. Will we see a similar situation as the show where Tyrion helps to rule Meereen in her absence?
And most importantly to me, when will she put a saddle on her dragon? Because I will not accept the idea that she just rawdogs dragon riding for the rest of the story like she did in the show.
If y’all have any other ideas or theories for what happens or other questions, I would love to hear them!
I made a video analyzing how Arya Stark’s storyline with Jaqen H’ghar and the Faceless Men is structured like a fairy tale, but one George R. R. Martin deliberately twists and deconstructs.
The video explores:
* Arya’s “three deaths” bargain as a Three Wishes story
* How she traps Jaqen using his own oath
* The role of names and magical rules in Braavos
* The House of Black and White as a system built on identity and exchange
* Why Arya repeatedly unsettles the supernatural figures around her
* Needle as memory, identity, and resistance
One thing I found especially interesting is that Arya survives less through physical strength and more through understanding systems faster than the people around her expect her to.
Even when dealing with magical bargains, assassins, and face-changing cults, the pattern stays the same:
Arya adapts.
And unlike a traditional fairy tale, outsmarting the supernatural doesn’t fix the world. It just keeps her alive long enough to keep moving through it.