▲ 74 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Tyrion will drive Victarion insane

Tyrion is repeatedly associated with monkeys. He tells Young Griff

> Your false father is a great lord, and I am just some twisted little monkey man.

Recalling Tywin

> Lord Tywin was not pleased. "The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey."

And the preacher in King's Landing says

> We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon.

Meanwhile, Victarion absolutely despises monkeys during his voyage

> The monkeys, though … the monkeys were a plague. Victarion had forbidden his men to bring any of the demonic creatures aboard ship, yet somehow half his fleet was now infested with them, even his own Iron Victory. He could see some now, swinging from spar to spar and ship to ship. Would that I had a crossbow.

Maybe a Tywin-Tyrion reference there at the end

Then there's this passage, where Victarion connects mockery and laughter directly to monkeys

> Victarion Greyjoy mistrusted laughter. The sound of it always left him with the uneasy feeling that he was the butt of some jape he did not understand. Euron Crow's Eye had oft made mock of him when they were boys. So had Aeron, before he had become the Damphair. Their mockery oft came disguised as praise, and sometimes Victarion had not even realized he was being mocked. Not until he heard the laughter. Then came the anger, boiling up in the back of his throat until he was like to choke upon the taste. That was how he felt about the monkeys. Their antics never brought so much as a smile to the captain's face, though his crew would roar and hoot and whistle.

With Tyrion and Victarion together in Meereen, I think George is going to have an incredible amount of fun with their dynamic

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▲ 601 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) D&D knew where Lady Stoneheart's story was going

A common reason people say Lady Stoneheart was cut was because D&D hated magical aspects of the story. But I think there's something more interesting in what they actually said

From Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon in 2020

> DAVID BENIOFF: "There was never really much debate about including Lady Stoneheart. There is that one great scene."

> DAN WEISS: "That was the only debate. The scene where she first shows up is one of the best 'holy shit' moments in the books. I think that scene is where the public response came from. But then...."

> DAVID BENIOFF: "We can't go into detail. Part of the reason we didn't want to put it in had to do with things coming up in George's books that we don't want to spoil by discussing them. Part of it too was we knew we had Jon Snow's resurrection coming up. Too many resurrections start to diminish the impact of characters' dying."

This sentence before is the more revealing one

> "Part of the reason we didn't want to put it in had to do with things coming up in George's books that we don't want to spoil."

That makes me think Lady Stoneheart is unique among the major cuts. Most characters seem to have been removed because of streamlining. But here they're saying they knew enough about her future role to make a conscious decision not to adapt it

My interpretation is that this is a polite way of saying they knew where Stoneheart's story was heading and weren't fans

How do you see her story ending?

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▲ 168 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Aegon III is a first draft of A Dream of Spring

The parallels between the Fire and Blood (and TWOIAF) and the main books have been commented on before, but they still bear mentioning

  • A queen having three bastard children whose hair color marks their suspected true parentage and helps start a civil war

  • A spymaster called Larys

  • A Queen rumored to have slept with her Kingsguard brother and had a child who'd eventually be King, and whose husband is a formerly attractive fat lecher with a lot of bastard children

One parallel that deserves more discussion, however, is Aegon III. He is referred to as the Broken King

> The smallfolk of the Seven Kingdoms speak of King Aegon III Targaryen as Aegon the Unlucky. Grand Maester Munkun, who served him for a good part of his reign, calls him the Broken King, which fits.

There is also explicit imagery connecting the epithet "Broken" with Bran sitting on a throne

> Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

Aegon III also ascended to the throne at a very young age and required a regency. He was only nine years old, which is around the same age Bran is.

Aegon, however, was deeply depressed and didn't feel worthy of the Iron Throne because he couldn't save his mother or brother. It's easy to imagine Bran feeling something similar.

> Though only nine at the time, Aegon came from a long line of warriors and heroes and had been raised on stories of their bold deeds and daring exploits, none of which included fleeing from a battle whilst abandoning your little brother to death. Down deep, the Broken King felt himself unworthy to sit the Iron Throne. He had not been able to save his brother, his mother, or his little queen from grisly deaths. How could he presume to save a kingdom?

Of course, there are differences. Aegon was physically healthy but "broken" emotionally and psychologically, whereas Bran is physically crippled but may ultimately be mentally whole.

Another interesting parallel is that Daemon Targaryen, despite the Iron Throne eluding him would end up fathering two kings, while Ned, who Robert and Cersei note should have taken the Iron Throne, would father two kings in Robb and Bran.

What I think is under discussed, though, is Rickon's place in the endgame

When Bran becomes king, he certainly won't have children in the books (and whether he even can is an open question). If Rickon survives, he would become Bran's heir. I think there may be another yet another parallel here with Aegon III

> Lord Unwin Peake could no longer contain himself. “Who is this?” he demanded, pushing forward. “Who are you?” The boy threw back his cowl. As the sunlight glittered on the silver-gold hair beneath, King Aegon III began to weep, throwing himself upon this boy in a fierce embrace. Oakenfist’s “treasure” was Viserys Targaryen, the king’s lost brother, the youngest son of Queen Rhaenyra and Prince Daemon, presumed dead since the Battle of the Gullet, and missing for nigh unto five years.

Viserys is found by Oakenfist, a renowned sailor who is coded as one of the more morally "good" characters in the story. Similarly, Davos, a sailor and smuggler who is likewise one of the books genuinely good men is sent to Skagos to retrieve Rickon

It's also worth noting that throughout the series, whenever characters clearly lay out their plans, something usually goes wrong. Wyman Manderly is unusually explicit about what he wants Davos to do

> Roose Bolton has Lord Eddard's daughter. To thwart him White Harbor must have Ned's son … and the direwolf. The wolf will prove the boy is who we say he is, should the Dreadfort attempt to deny him. That is my price, Lord Davos. Smuggle me back my liege lord, and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king.

That makes me think the plan won't unfold as intended. Perhaps Davos doesn't find Rickon immediately, or perhaps the journey simply takes much longer than expected. It's also possible that one of the autumn storms, which are already becoming a factor in the story...

> "The sea is hazardous," replied Illyrio. "Autumn is a season rife with storms."

...causes Davos and Rickon to be presumed dead after their ship is lost. Whatever happens, I suspect Manderly's straightforward plan doesn't play out the way he expects.

By the end of the series, Stannis, Myrcella, Aegon, Tommen, Daenerys, and Jon will either be dead or no longer contenders for the throne. The overall mood after the Long Night and the war for the throne will likely resemble the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons of being exhausted and deeply depressing.

Bran also left Rickon to pursue the three eyed crow, which meant he had to go to Skagos. If Bran comes to believe that something terrible happened to Rickon because of that decision, it's easy to imagine him carrying a similar sense of guilt Aegon did

> The return of his brother from the dead worked a wondrous change in Aegon III, Munkun tells us. His Grace had never truly forgiven himself for leaving Viserys to his fate when he fled the Gay Abandon on dragonback before the Battle of the Gullet.

Rickon unexpectedly returning alive at the very end of the story could therefore mirror Viserys's return, bringing Bran an overwhelming sense of relief and joy after everything that has been lost. That would leave the series ending on a note of hope

> King Aegon III began to weep, throwing himself upon this boy in a fierce embrace.

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 2 days ago

HotD will be a reverse Game of Thrones

One unintended benefit of moving what was originally planned for Season 2's ending into Season 3 is that it gives Season 3 immediate momentum. It definitely hurt Season 2, which ended without the kind of climactic payoff but it also means Season 3 should hit the ground running.

Since the season opens with the major battles that were originally meant to conclude Season 2 and builds toward the First Battle of Tumbleton as its penultimate or final episode, it'll have both a very strong opening and a strong finish. Anything inbetween will get given a lot more grace

Season 4 is then packed

  • Moondancer vs Sunfyre

  • Battle Above the Gods Eye

  • Storming of the Dragonpit

  • Second Battle of Tumbleton

  • Hour of the Wolf

  • The deaths of Rhaenyra and Aegon

That's an enormous amount of material for just eight episodes. And the budget per episode will be massive.

The show will likely end up being the reverse of Game of Thrones. Whereas GoT is remembered for its strongest early seasons, House of the Dragon will ultimately be remembered for peaking in its final two seasons

u/Expensive-Country801 — 4 days ago

There's a trick with Jon’s eyes

> "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

When Cat reminisces on the Brandon and Petyr duel, she describes the Stark look in terms of cool grey eyes

We see a description with Benjen

> His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain-crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes.

When Bran is noticing his father

> Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day

...it is immediately followed up by Jon, who has eyes so dark they appear Black

> Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black but there was little they did not see. 

Now we never get any mention of Lyanna’s eyes in the books, nor any indication that Jon would inherit distinctly darker grey than Lyanna’s siblings from her.

It's possible GRRM is pulling with Jon a similar trick he's done with Egg, and Jon has actually had purple eyes this whole time

While Egg is hiding his identity, his eyes, despite being purple, can appear black depending on lighting

> Egg had big eyes, and somehow his shaven head made them look even larger. In the dimness of the lamplit cellar they looked black, but in better light their true color could be seen: deep and dark and purple.

We see a similar effect with Darkstar, where purple eyes are initially perceived as black

> His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple

This establishes a precedent in that very dark purple eyes can easily read as black or near black by others

Another notable point is how rarely Jon’s eye color is mentioned at all. Across the entire series, his eyes are described only a few times. All but one of those references come from other POV characters. Despite Jon having 42 POV chapters, his eye color is mentioned only ONCE in his own chapters. His eyes are virtually always described by others

There are as more references to Jon’s eyes in Mel's single chapter as there are in all of Jon’s POV chapters combined. This is a big contrast with characters like Tyrion and Dany, whose eye colors are mentioned more repeatedly in their chapters

The relevant mentions;

Arya

> Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his.

Melisandre (x2)

> Jon Snow's grey eyes grew wider. "Mance?"

Sam

> Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.

The only description in Jon’s own POV comes in a passage focused on his appearance in Night’s Watch attire

> All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

The context matters here. The description is explicitly tied to how Jon appears dressed entirely in black, which could influence how his features are perceived

We see a similar perceptual effect with Young Griff. Tyrion notes that altered hair color changes how eye color is perceived

> The dwarf ignored him. "The blue hair makes your eyes seem blue, that's good."

Since its established blue hair can shift perception to eyes looking blue, then it follows that Jon’s dark hair (combined with his black Night’s Watch clothing) could make very dark indigo appear dark grey or nearly black

This becomes especially interesting when considering Rhaegar’s eye color, which is described as darker than Viserys or Dany

> The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

Dark indigo is a shade that could reasonably be interpreted as dark grey or nearly black

This also aligns with the longstanding rumor that Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother. Ashara’s defining physical trait is consistently her violet eyes

> The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

If Ned had returned from the war with a child possessing purple eyes, it is easy to see why the household at Winterfell might connect Jon to Ashara.

Finally, Jon’s appearance at Winterfell is implied to evolved over time. Early on, he may not have resembled a Stark so greatly

> Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 6 days ago
▲ 59 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) The perception trick with Jon's eyes

> "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

When Cat reminisces on the Brandon and Petyr duel, she describes the Stark look in terms of cool grey eyes

We see a description with Benjen

> His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain-crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes.

When Bran is noticing his father

> Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day

...it is immediately followed up by Jon, who has eyes so dark they appear Black

> Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black but there was little they did not see. 

Now we never get any mention of Lyanna’s eyes in the books, nor any indication that Jon would inherit distinctly darker grey than Lyanna’s siblings from her.

It's possible GRRM is pulling with Jon a similar trick he's done with Egg, and Jon has actually had purple eyes this whole time

While Egg is hiding his identity, his eyes, despite being purple, can appear black depending on lighting

> Egg had big eyes, and somehow his shaven head made them look even larger. In the dimness of the lamplit cellar they looked black, but in better light their true color could be seen: deep and dark and purple.

We see a similar effect with Darkstar, where purple eyes are initially perceived as black

> His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple

This establishes a precedent in that very dark purple eyes can easily read as black or near black by others

Another notable point is how rarely Jon’s eye color is mentioned at all. Across the entire series, his eyes are described only a few times. All but one of those references come from other POV characters. Despite Jon having 42 POV chapters, his eye color is mentioned only ONCE in his own chapters. His eyes are virtually always described by others

There are as more references to Jon’s eyes in Mel's single chapter as there are in all of Jon’s POV chapters combined. This is a big contrast with characters like Tyrion and Dany, whose eye colors are mentioned more repeatedly in their chapters

The relevant mentions;

Arya

> Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his.

Melisandre (x2)

> Jon Snow's grey eyes grew wider. "Mance?"

Sam

> Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.

The only description in Jon’s own POV comes in a passage focused on his appearance in Night’s Watch attire

> All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

The context matters here. The description is explicitly tied to how Jon appears dressed entirely in black, which could influence how his features are perceived

We see a similar perceptual effect with Young Griff. Tyrion notes that altered hair color changes how eye color is perceived

> The dwarf ignored him. "The blue hair makes your eyes seem blue, that's good."

Since its established blue hair can shift perception to eyes looking blue, then it follows that Jon’s dark hair (combined with his black Night’s Watch clothing) could make very dark indigo appear dark grey or nearly black

This becomes especially interesting when considering Rhaegar’s eye color, which is described as darker than Viserys or Dany

> The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

Dark indigo is a shade that could reasonably be interpreted as dark grey or nearly black under dim lighting

This also aligns with the longstanding rumor that Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother. Ashara’s defining physical trait is consistently her violet eyes

> The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

If Ned had returned from the war with a child possessing purple eyes, it is easy to see why the household at Winterfell might connect Jon to Ashara.

Finally, Jon’s appearance at Winterfell is implied to evolved over time. Early on, he may not have resembled a Stark so greatly

> Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 6 days ago
▲ 0 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Psst... want to know where Ashara Dayne is?

So, Ashara Dayne. Sister to the Sword of the Morning in Arthur Dayne. Extremely beautiful and had haunting violet eyes. She threw herself into the sea after the loss of her stillborn child, yet no body was ever found. As a result, she has remained one of the oldest mysteries in the series

I think I can tell you exactly where she is

Ready?

#Ashara Dayne is Wylla

First, let's recall who Ned claims Jon's mother is

> Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?

> "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

Then we have the 12 year old Edric Dayne, who claims Wylla is Jon's mother and also his milk brother

> Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

> "Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

> Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

> "Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

> "Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."

> "Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

GRRM later clarified that Jon was nursed by Wylla years before Edric was

> How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch, or perhaps did Wylla have a(nother) kid of her own when Edric was born? Or if Edric was lying, and why didn't Arya call him on it?

> GRRM: Edric is stretching the term a little... "milk brothers" more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along.

Edric is 12. We never get Wylla's age, but she was clearly old enough to nurse Jon at the end of the Rebellion, remained at Starfall, and later nursed Edric as well

Then we learn where Edric gets his information about Ned and Ashara

> “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”

This is interesting because Allyria is Ashara's younger sister. Since she is only betrothed, not yet married, yet is old enough to tell Edric romantic stories, putting her at 14, around the same age as Jon and Robb at the start of A Game of Thrones adds up

Barristan also remembers Ashara looking to a Stark at Harrenhal

> If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Brandon encouraged Ned and Ashara to dance together. It would be wildly out of character (not to mention incredibly cruel) for Brandon to then sleep with and impregnate her afterward. It's also something Ned would likely resent Brandon for, yet we never get any hint of that from Ned's POV

So I think the Stark was always Ned

He developed feelings for Ashara during the Tourney at Harrenhal, and vice versa. He may even have hoped to marry her, then Rhaegar and Lyanna happened, the rebellion broke out, and duty forced Ned to marry Catelyn instead

So what happened?

Ned arrived at Starfall after the war

Ashara gave birth to their daughter, Allyria

Jon was nursed by Ashara at Starfall

Allyria was passed off as Ashara's younger sister, while Ashara assumed the identity of "Wylla." Her supposed suicide became the cover story

That solves several problems at once:

  • Allyria avoids the stigma of bastardy and is raised as a trueborn Dayne, greatly improving her life prospects

  • Ashara avoids public dishonor

  • Ashara remains at Starfall with her family and is able to raise her daughter

Historically, this sort of arrangement was not uncommon. Illegitimate children were sometimes passed off as younger siblings and raised by their grandparents as if they were their own children

Finally, I think the books may still be setting up this reveal. Areo Hotah is currently heading toward High Hermitage

> If he is the man I judge, Swann will not be able to refuse. Obara, you will lead him to High Hermitage to beard Darkstar in his den.

High Hermitage is close to Starfall. That makes a return to the Daynes quite likely. If so, I think we'll finally meet "Wylla," learn that she is Ashara Dayne, and perhaps get confirmation of R+L through her, and that's how it goes public

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 8 days ago
▲ 424 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Serra's Hands will expose an epic conspiracy

Necklace of linked hands, by Yulia Startsev

> “Storm’s End is ours. The Hand awaits you there.”

> “There is an army descending on Storm’s End from King’s Landing. You will want to be safe inside the walls before the battle.”

> “Battle,” Halden said firmly. “Prince Aegon means to smash his enemies in the field.”

The last time we see the Golden Company, they have taken Storm's End and are preparing to fight the royal army. If they win, the road to King's Landing is wide open.

At the same time, JonCons greyscale is advancing rapidly, and he is absolutely determined that nobody can ever discover his condition.

> The nails on all four fingers were black now, though not yet on his thumb. On the middle finger, the grey had crept up past the second knuckle. I should hack them off, he thought, but how would I explain two missing fingers? He dare not let the greyscale become known. Queer as it seemed, men who would cheerfully face battle and risk death to rescue a companion would abandon that same companion in a heartbeat if he were known to have greyscale.

The other day I made a post arguing that Fire & Blood foreshadows Illyrio's fate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/AcfvCf9nXd

The basic idea is that Rego Draz, a Pentoshi merchant who rose to become Master of Coin, is an echo of Illyrio. Illyrio promises that he will come to Westeros, just as Rego did, and Rego ultimately died at the hands of a mob in King's Landing after winter and plague. I think Illyrio is headed for the same fate.

One detail about Rego stood out to me.

> He was said to be godless, for he did not worship the Seven. Many a queer god is worshipped in Pentos, but Draz was known to keep but one, a small household idol like unto a woman great with child, with swollen breasts and a bat’s head. “She is all the god I need,” was all he would say upon the matter.

Rego possessed a strange, deeply personal artifact that naturally attracted suspicion.

Does Illyrio have an equivalent? I think he does.

His equivalent is Serra's hands

Serra is said to have died during the Grey Plague.

> A Braavosi trading galley called at Pentos on her way back from the Jade Sea. The Treasure carried cloves and saffron, jet and jade, scarlet samite, green silk … and the grey death. We slew her oarsmen as they came ashore and burned the ship at anchor, but the rats crept down the oars and paddled to the quay on cold stone feet. The plague took two thousand before it ran its course." Magister Illyrio closed the locket. "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft …"

Now think about where the story is heading.

Jon Connington is bringing greyscale toward King's Landing.

Illyrio is coming to Westeros likely carrying his most treasured possession. He frequently swears by her hands. The petrified hands of a woman supposedly killed by greyscale during the Grey Plague in Pentos.

If a greyscale epidemic breaks out in King's Landing, those hands immediately become an object of suspicion, and similar to Rego, contribute to the brutal murder of Illyrio by a mob

> When his lordship raised his hands to ward off the blows raining down on him, gold and gemstones glittered on every finger

There's another issue. Serra's hands are fake.

Notice how Illyrio tells the story. He talks about the Grey Plague, never actually says Serra died from it, and then immediately pivots to saying he keeps her hands in his bedchamber.

It's a lie by omission. There's another detail that becomes interesting in hindsight. Illyrio reminisces about sculptor who worked for him when he was young.

> I was near as poor, a bravo in soiled silks, living by my blade. Perhaps you chanced to glimpse the statue by my pool? Pytho Malanon carved that when I was six-and-ten. A lovely thing, though now I weep to see it."

Illyrio is long time associated with an exceptionally talented sculptor. Then later he tells us

> "We slew her oarsmen as they came ashore and burned the ship at anchor, but the rats crept down the oars and paddled to the quay on cold stone feet. The plague took two thousand before it ran its course." Magister Illyrio closed the locket. "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft …"

Pytho Malanon sculpted Serra's hands in stone. Illyrio passes them off as the genuine article, allowing everyone to assume Serra succumbed to greyscale while never actually saying so.

Later we meet a mysterious septa within Illyrio's association. She is about Serra's age. She hides her identity. And Tyrion notices something else.

> Lemore was not near as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth.

That immediately reminded me of Rego's idol.

> A small household idol like unto a woman great with child, with swollen breasts and a bat’s head. “She is all the god I need,” was all he would say upon the matter.

Rego treasured an image of a pregnant woman.

Illyrio treasures the "hands" of a woman who, if Lemore is Serra, also bore a child in Young Griff.

Now consider the story structure. We have:

  • A Hand of the King POV.

  • A false king.

  • A conspiracy hidden beneath the surface.

  • King's Landing as the setting.

That's almost exactly the setup of A Game of Thrones. Ned's investigation begins with a seemingly ordinary object.

> "One thing," Ned told him. "I should be curious to examine the book that you lent Jon the day before he fell ill."

> "I fear you would find it of little interest," Pycelle said. "It was a ponderous tome by Grand Maester Malleon on the lineages of the great houses."

> "Still, I should like to see it."

That book became the thread that unraveled the truth about Joffrey. What serves that role for Jon Connington?

It's Serra's Hands

JonCon already has greyscale that will progress as the story moves

> The nails on all four fingers were black now, though not yet on his thumb. On the middle finger, the grey had crept up past the second knuckle.

He knows exactly what greyscale looks like. When he sees Serra's "petrified" hands, he'll naturally compare them to his own.

And he'll realize they're fake and were carved.

That discovery becomes the first loose thread. Why would Illyrio lie about Serra's death? If she didn't die, where is she? Who was she really?

Those questions eventually lead him to Septa Lemore, to Varys, and finally to the Blackfyre conspiracy.

Just as Ned uncovered that Joffrey was a false Baratheon, Jon Connington will discover that Aegon is a false Targaryen.

JonCon will have to conduct his own investigation while hiding a secret that would destroy him if anyone discovered it: his greyscale, and the inciting incident will be stone hands, as JonCon wears a necklace of linked hands as Hand of the King.

And once he finally learns the truth, I think he'll attempt to send word to Daenerys on Dragonstone and offer her the Iron Throne as she's the true Targaryen claimant, just as Ned tried to pass the throne to Stannis, the true Baratheon claimant

u/Expensive-Country801 — 8 days ago
▲ 1.0k r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Did Fire & Blood reveal Illyrio's fate?

Rego Draz, by Lopata 4 ©

The final time we see Illyrio, he leaves with a promise

> Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra's hands.

If Illyrio makes it to Westeros, there may already be a historical template for what happens next. I've been wondering whether Fire & Blood foreshadows this through the story of Rego Draz.

Rego Draz only appears briefly in Fire & Blood, but his biography overlaps with Illyrio's in a few striking ways. Both men are Pentoshi who climb from humble beginnings to immense wealth. Rego is introduced as;

> No lord, no knight, not even a magister, Rego Draz was a merchant, trader, and money-changer who had risen from nothing to become the richest man in Pentos only to find himself shunned by his fellow Pentoshi and denied a seat in the council of magisters because of his low birth.

Illyrio gives Tyrion a similar account of his own rise

> I was near as poor, a bravo in soiled silks, living by my blade.

They're both self made merchants from Pentos whose fortunes are built on commerce. Both are also wealthy, enormously fat, and happy to flaunt their success

Rego's appearance later in life is described as

> After ten years in service to the Iron Throne, Lord Rego had grown quite stout, and no longer chose to ride. Instead he moved from manse to castle and back again in an ornate gilded palanquin

His critics reduce him to nothing more than an upjumped foreign merchant

> Lord Rego was a godless Pentoshi and an upjumped spicemonger, and his birth was, if anything, even lower

That language immediately reminded me of the insults directed at Illyrio

> Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate

The similarities continue once politics enter the picture. Rego becomes Jaehaerys's Master of Coin during a economic crisis. His experience with the Free Cities allows him to secure desperately needed funding for the Iron Throne

> The immediate need for gold was resolved by Rego Draz, the new master of coin, who reached out to the Iron Bank of Braavos and its rivals in Tyrosh and Myr to arrange not one but three substantial loans.

Interestingly, Illyrio was promised exactly that office if Viserys had taken the throne

> "Are we back to that again? You are a persistent little man." Illyrio gave a laugh and slapped his belly. "As you will. The Beggar King swore that I should be his master of coin, and a lordly lord as well. Once he wore his golden crown, I should have my choice of castles … even Casterly Rock, if I desired."

Illyrio is coming to Westeros. If Aegon establishes himself in King's Landing, Illyrio seems like a natural candidate for Master of Coin. The crown is effectively bankrupt, while Illyrio has both enormous wealth and financial connections across the Free Cities.

Harys Swyft describes the situation near the end of A Dance with Dragons

> Aye, if we had gold," Ser Harys Swyft said. "Alas, my lords, our vaults contain only rats and roaches. I have written again to the Myrish bankers. If they will agree to make good the crown's debt to the Braavosi and extend us a new loan, mayhaps we will not have to raise the taxes. Elsewise—

An Illyrio appointment would solve exactly the sort of problem Rego solved earlier for Jaehaerys by helping secure funding and loans for the Crown. Tyrion also realizes Illyrio's commitment to Aegon is deep, so Illyrio will pull out all the stops here to prop up his regime

> Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles

Where the comparison becomes more interesting, though, is Rego's downfall. His tenure coincides with winter, followed by plague spreading into King's Landing

> In the winter of 59 AC, the Shivers entered from the east, and moved across Blackwater Bay and up the Blackwater Rush. Even before King’s Landing, the islands off the crownlands felt the chill. Edwell Celtigar, Maegor’s one-time Hand and the much despised master of coin, was the first lord to die. His son and heir followed him to grave three days later. Lord Staunton died at Rook’s Rest, and then his wife. Their children, frightened, sealed themselves inside their bedchambers and barred the doors, but it did not save them.

The smallfolk eventually direct their anger toward Rego, who is both wealthy and foreign.

That scenario feels quite plausible for Aegon's storyline. Westeros is heading into a harsh winter, food shortages are already developing, and JonCon is carrying greyscale. If disease spreads after Aegon's invasion, it's easy to imagine hungry frightened people associating the epidemic with the foreign regime arriving from across the Narrow Sea and the most ostentatious ones like Illyrio being targeted first

Rego's death is described as

> When his lordship raised his hands to ward off the blows raining down on him, gold and gemstones glittered on every finger, and the attack grew more frenzied still. A woman shouted, “He’s Pentoshi. Them’s the bastards brung the Shivers here.”

And finally

> Before they ran, they ripped off his fine clothes and cut off all his fingers to lay claim to his rings.

The emphasis on his ring covered fingers reminded me of Tyrion's observations about Illyrio's hands. Note the last sentence

> Illyrio was reclining on a padded couch, gobbling hot peppers and pearl onions from a wooden bowl. His brow was dotted with beads of sweat, his pig's eyes shining above his fat cheeks. Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger's eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I'd need a cleaver to claim them.

If Tyrion thinks that, it's easy to imagine smallfolk in Flea Bottom coming to the same conclusion during a plague and winter.

u/Expensive-Country801 — 9 days ago
▲ 197 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) The Green Men points to who Coldhands is

One of the most interesting additions in HotD is the appearance of the Green Men. They were first mentioned very early in A Game of Thrones, but have barely been referenced since beyond a rumor Addam went to the Isle of Faces

For years, people have theorized that Daemon survived the Battle Above the Gods Eye because no body was ever recovered, but there was never much evidence beyond that.

Now, with the show's emphasis on Daemon's visions of a Green Man and actually showing us them (before Addam even goes to the Isle of Faces for his final battle), it feels like they're laying the groundwork for something

Most likely, after his duel with Aemond, Daemon's body is recovered from the Gods Eye by the Green Men. We know GRRM quite likes the character.

If the show goes in that direction, I wonder if they're setting him up to become Coldhands. By that point, he'd have been dead long enough to meet Leaf's descriptions of him.

u/Expensive-Country801 — 11 days ago
▲ 32 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Benjen Stark is Jon's Final Quest

> Will shared his unease. He had been four years on the Wall. The first time he had been sent beyond, all the old stories had come rushing back, and his bowels had turned to water. He had laughed about it afterward. He was a veteran of a hundred rangings by now, and the endless dark wilderness that the southron called the haunted forest had no more terrors for him.

At the start of the books, Will, Gared, and Ser Waymar Royce are in the Haunted Forest on a ranging. Gared makes it out, but we obviously know the other two were killed by an Other and turned

It's notable that the last place Benjen was seen was also the Haunted Forest. As Jon notes in ADwD

> but his uncle Benjen and his rangers had been seasoned men as well, and the haunted forest had swallowed them up without a trace. When two of them finally came straggling back to the Wall, it had been as wights. Not for the first time, or the last, Jon Snow found himself wondering what had become of Benjen Stark. Perhaps the rangers will come upon some sign of them, he told himself, never truly believing it.

For a long time, Benjen = Coldhands was the common assumption. However George's editor had asked if Coldhands is Benjen, and George had simply replied

> "NO."

That's a problem because Benjen is brought up repeatedly after AGoT, and his disappearance is important enough to cause the Great Ranging. If he's not Coldhands, where is he?

An interesting thing about Jon and Benjen's relationship is that it's the only 'true' relationship Jon has with his family. His siblings are actually his cousins. Catelyn is his aunt by marriage, etc. Benjen is actually his uncle, however. On top of their close relationship, Catelyn notes that Benjen would treat Jon like the son he never had. The point is they're close. And Benjen as a character is entirely a part of Jon's narrative.

Jon also promises to go find him in the first book

> Far off to the north, a wolf began to howl. Another voice picked up the call, then another. Ghost cocked his head and listened. “If he doesn’t come back,” Jon Snow promised, “Ghost and I will go find him.” He put his hand on the direwolf’s head

Note Tyrion's reply

> “I believe you,” Tyrion said, but what he thought was, And who will go find you? He shivered.

So, to note

  • Waymar and Will still haven't been seen since the Prologue, despite dying in the Haunted Forest.

  • Benjen is not Coldhands.

  • He's brought up regularly after AGoT, and his disappearance remains a mystery and a Chekhov's gun.

  • He disappeared in the same place that Will and Waymar Royce did in the Prologue.

My theory is that Benjen's disappearance will never be solved. We will never learn exactly what happened to him.

However, I think he will be the focus of the Epilogue of A Dream of Spring.

After the Long Night, after the political aftermath, and after Jon has grown into a man after Winter as Maester Aemon asked, he will lead a ranging into the Haunted Forest, a direct callback to the Prologue.

Now, Daniel Abraham (one half of James S. A. Corey and writer of the Game of Thrones graphic novels) said this about the adaptation

> Have you collaborated at all with George R.R. Martin in the process of adapting the novel to comics? If so, what’s the creative process there?

> I’ve spoken to George a lot in the process. The biggest issues we have are continuity questions. There are things about this story that only he knows, and they aren’t all obvious. "There was one scene I had to rework because there's a particular line of dialog -- and you wouldn't know it to look at -- that's important in the last scene of "A Dream of Spring."

It has to be from AGoT. And it has to be important in the last scene of A Dream of Spring, not just the ending.

I would suggest, in the Epilogue, while in the Haunted Forest, Jon hears a distant howl from a Direwolf and remembers what Benjen told him all the way back in the first book

> "There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings"

However, similarly to how the prologue built up more and more ominous signs prior to the Other arriving, the Epilogue will do the same, with the general vibe being Jon isn't going to return from the Haunted Forest.

The end.

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 12 days ago
▲ 10 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) The Protagonists of the Second Dance of Dragons

> "They are of your body."

> "So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."

When we're introduced to Euron, he has a determined desire to wed Dany. From his perspective, it is a completely understandable obsession. She has dragons, she is beautiful, and she is a queen, making her effectively the most desirable woman in the world.

But does he actually have a chance?

According to the A Feast for Crows drafts...yeah. The intention at one point was indeed a Euron-Dany marriage. In an draft chapter, (draft) Dany spells out her ideal husband

> As they ate, Missandei looked at her with eyes like molten gold and said, "If the Sons of the Harpy lay down their knives for the noble Hizdahr, what will you demand of him for your second gift?"

> "I will ask for peace on the waters," Dany said as she nibbled on an olive. "I will tell him to sink the Qartheen fleet, or puff up his cheeks and blow them home."

> "And if he should do that too, will you ask him for peace on the land? For peace with Yunkai and New Ghis?"

> "I might." She smiled. "Or not. Perhaps I will ask him to sail to Westeros and bring me back the Iron Throne. Or I could send him to Valyria in search of a sorcerer's tomes and magic swords. Or maybe I'll just demand he ride a dragon."

> Missandei said, "This one thinks you do not mean to wed."

> "I do. I will. So long as he gives me my three gifts." Child of three, they'd called her. "I am just a young girl," Dany said, giggling, "and a young girl must have her gifts."

We know from GRRM that Euron has actually been to Valyria, is heavily associated with dragonriding as the owner of Dragonbinder, and Aeron sees him seated upon the Iron Throne in a vision. He matches her impossible criteria.

Furthermore, because this marriage was being set up during the writing of the fourth book, its worth looking back at the House of the Undying segment in A Clash of Kings to see what GRRM's intentions were. Specifically, the segment concerning who Dany is the "bride of"

> Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

"Grey lips smiling sadly" is a clear nod to a Greyjoy. It is highly likely that Euron = Daario became a popular fan theory because, conceptually, those characters serve a similar purpose in being a roguish love interest who indulges Dany's more violent impulses.

Is this still on the cards? In The Forsaken, we see this

> He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

Recall what Varys told Tyrion about the nature of power

> "So power is a mummer's trick?"

> "A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

Daenerys, fully embracing her fire and blood persona, would undoubtedly cast a pretty tall and terrible shadow. Marrying Euron would certainly make her faction a lot less sympathetic to Westeros and a lot of readers. Perhaps that is the narrative intent.

In 2006, after publishing Feast, GRRM dropped a crucial hint on how the 2nd Dance would look

> The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion. George stopped himself short and said he shouldn't say anymore.

My opinion is that GRRM couldn't wrap up Dany's story in Essos quickly enough, so he split the Greyjoy brothers. Sending Victarion to help in Meereen, while keeping Euron in Westeros to deal with the opening the Second Dance as a sort of proxy for Dany against Young Griff.

By the time Dany finishes her Essos arc and arrives at Dragonstone, a Euron-Aegon conflict will likely have wrapped up, with Euron winning by virtue of actually possessing a dragon. Aegon, taking Tyrion's bait actually abandoned the Dragons and confidently told the Golden Company

> "Then put your hopes on me," he said. "Daenerys is Prince Rhaegar's sister, but I am Rhaegar's son. I am the only dragon that you need."

Instead of pursuing real dragons, Aegon and The Golden Company chose to rely entirely on conventional warfare, with Lysono Maar arguing to Arianne in the Winds Sample

> "As for these purported dragons, I have not seen them. In cyvasse, it is true, the dragon is mightier than the elephant. On the battlefield, give me elephants I can see and touch and send against my foes, not dragons made of words and wishes."

Logistically and thematically, Aegon isn't meant to get a dragon. He put himself in a position where claiming one is impossible, rejecting trying to get to Dany out of a desire for the quick kill in Westeros. Tyrion demonstrated during their cyvasse game, a hasty driven decision like that has a lethal price

> Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four."

> The prince stared at the playing board. "My dragon—"

> "—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle."

> "But you said—"

> "I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close."

Aegon should have listened.

Ultimately, Aegon represents the power of a good narrative and Varys's fundamental belief that power is merely a trick. In contrast, Dragons represent power in its primal sense. Having Euron take out the dragonless Aegon highlights this, which after a Cersei and Lannister retreat to Casterly Rock, leaves Euron holding the Iron Throne, ready to offer it to Daenerys for a price; Marriage.

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 13 days ago
▲ 1 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Is GRRM's silence around HotD notable?

For Seasons 1 and 2, George made several blog posts in the lead up to release, discussed episodes, and generally helped build hype.

This time, with Season 3 reportedly costing around $20 million per episode and being probably the biggest project in the franchise post GoT, theres been TOTAL radio silence. He also hasn't spoken about AKotsK since it aired..

I genuinely can't remember a period where multiple major ASOIAF projects were happening simultaneously and GRRM was this absent publicly.

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 16 days ago

(Spoilers All) I think we can tell where the writers are going with Rhaena

With the recent leak suggesting that Rhaena will be responsible for Jace's death, I think it's worth asking why the writers made that change.

By cutting Nettles, they've removed the part of the Dance where Daemon abandons Rhaenyra over her treatment of Nettles. That conflict no longer exists, so they need another reason for Daemon and Corlys to break with Rhaenyra.

One way to replace it is by making Rhaena responsible for Jace's death. Rhaenyra will hate Rhaena for this.

Rhaena is Daemon's daughter and Corlys's grandchild. If Rhaenyra turns against her or tries to punish her, both Daemon and Corlys would have strong personal reasons to turn against Rhaenyra. Corlys in the books got thrown in jail both due to Addam's treatment and for saying Nettles fought well in the Gullet. Since its Rhaena in the show, he'll defend her due to being her grandfather

It recreates the same fracture in the Black faction, just through a different chain of events.

This is exactly the kind of butterfly effect GRRM talked about in his blog post. Remove one character, and eventually you have to create entirely new motivations and plotlines to fill the gaps.

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 16 days ago
▲ 362 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Cersei will eat Ser Pounce and cause a plague

Cersei has a peculiar habit. Eating and tasting become expressions of triumph. The first example is Robert. After his death, Cersei develops a fondness for boar

> The rest was hippocras and buttered beets, hot-baked bread, herb-crusted pike, and ribs of wild boar. Cersei had become very fond of boar since Robert's death

The pleasure isn't just in the taste. The boar represents Robert's defeat. She's literally devouring the thing that killed him.

Then there is this iconic line

> "Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs"

Robert's seed is his future children. In her mind she is consuming the children he will never have from her. Again, by eating his seed, she got total victory over him.

Later, after Loras is wounded, Cersei delights in Margaery's grief. That night she reflects

> The queen smiled as she lay her head upon the pillow. When I kissed her cheek I could taste her tears

Tommen is living on borrowed time

The Sand Snakes made their original intentions clear

> Four lives will suffice for me. Lord Tywin's golden twins, as payment for Elia's children. The old lion, for Elia herself. And last of all the little king, for my father.

Nymeria and Tyene left for King's Landing believing Gregor's head had truly been sent to Dorne. Yet Nym herself notes that if Cersei lied, eventually the truth will out

> "Tar would have ruined the box," suggested Lady Nym, as Maester Caleotte scurried off. "No one saw the Mountain die, and no one saw his head removed. That troubles me, I confess, but what could the bitch queen hope to accomplish by deceiving us? If Gregor Clegane is alive, soon or late the truth will out. The man was eight feet tall, there is not another like him in all of Westeros. If any such appears again, Cersei Lannister will be exposed as a liar before all the Seven Kingdoms. She would be an utter fool to risk that. What could she hope to gain?"

Because Cersei is a fool, when Robert Strong eventually exposes the deception, their original instinct that Tommen needs to die as vengeance for Oberyn will likely return.

Method

Arya learns about basilisk blood at the House of Black and White

> “This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood.

> Arya chewed her lip. “Would it work on dogs?”

> “On any animal with warm blood.” The waif slapped her.

Jaqen used it at Harrenhal to make Weese's dog kill its master. It works on animals. And Pycelle conveniently possessed some

> The maester's medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle's precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon's dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow's blood.

Pycelle is dead and a replacement Grand Maester has yet to arrive. A poison going missing may not be noticed immediately.

Tommen is well guarded and protected by food tasters. An indirect method makes more sense. And Tommen keeps a few cats in his room

Tommen isn't Joff

It's important to remember that Tommen is nothing like his brother

> Prince Tommen spoke up. “Do you have news of Bran, Uncle?”

> “I stopped by the sickroom last night,” Tyrion announced. “There was no change. The maester thought that a hopeful sign.”

> “I don’t want Brandon to die,” Tommen said timorously. He was a sweet boy. Not like his brother, but then Jaime and Tyrion were somewhat less than peas in a pod themselves.

His death won't simply clear the board for a glorious happy conquest for Aegon or Dorne. There will be narrative consequences for child murder. And what if he dies because the cats he loves are driven into a frenzy?

We're reminded that the cats keep down the rats

> “The bad cat?” Ser Kevan said, amused. “He is a sweet boy.”

> “An old black tomcat with a torn ear,” Cersei told him. “A filthy thing, and foul-tempered. He clawed Joff’s hand once.” She made a face. “The cats keep the rats down, I know, but that one… he’s been known to attack ravens in the rookery.”

Imagine Cersei's last son, the King of the Seven Kingdoms, dying because his throat got torn apart by a few frenzied cats who he kept in his room. Her grief and rage would be immense. She would likely order every cat in the Red Keep killed, perhaps even every cat in King's Landing.

And knowing Cersei's fixation with consuming symbols of victory, I think she may even eat Ser Pounce in a act of vengeance.

Plague

With the cats gone, the rats multiply. In a city already filthy, overcrowded and chaotic, disease becomes inevitable. Which brings us to Jon Connington

> Alone in the tent, as the gold and scarlet rays of the setting sun shone through the open flap, Jon Connington shrugged off his wolfskin cloak, slipped his mail shirt off over his head, settled on a camp stool, and peeled the glove from his right hand. The nail on his middle finger had turned as black as jet, he saw, and the grey had crept up almost to the first knuckle. The tip of his ring finger had begun to darken too, and when he touched it with the point of his dagger, he felt nothing.

After defeating Mace Tyrell and opening the road to King's Landing, Jon Connington will arrive carrying greyscale. We know that rats are a vector for the disease

> A Braavosi trading galley called at Pentos on her way back from the Jade Sea. The Treasure carried cloves and saffron, jet and jade, scarlet samite, green silk … and the grey death. We slew her oarsmen as they came ashore and burned the ship at anchor, but the rats crept down the oars and paddled to the quay on cold stone feet.

The exploding rat population due to Cersei killing the cats will help spread greyscale and doom King's Landing.

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 17 days ago
▲ 585 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) The solution to the Long Night is Guest Right

> "I do not know how you observe guest right on your mountain, ser. In the north we hold it sacred. Wun Wun is a guest here."

> Ser Patrek smiled. "Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?"

Over the years there have been countless theories about defeating the Others. Classic fantasy battle, Heart of Winter hivemind, time travel, and so on.

But one possibility that I've never really seen explored is that Ser Patrek's sarcastic question might actually be serious foreshadowing.

What if the Others are dealt with through guest right?

Guest right is probably the most sacred customs in the series. Bread and salt are shared, host and guest are bound, and neither may harm the other. Gilly mentions you being bound to the Host.

> "Black brothers are sworn never to take wives, don't you know that? And we're guests in your father's hall besides."

> "Not you," she said. "I watched. You never ate at his board, nor slept by his fire. He never gave you guest-right, so you're not bound to him."

The principle isn't just a south of the Wall custom. It's universal among the First Men. Even the supposedly savage wildlings hold it dearly sacred. Why wouldn't that extend to the Others?

Mance says to Jon;

> "Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree."

And we know The Others are capable of some kind of negotiation. Craster has maintained a relationship with them for a long time now.

An underrated detail is that they probably eat as well. Craster's wives suggest that the boys are not being consumed, since they say they come back. Instead, they mention livestock being taken

> "For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

So we have:

  • A social mechanism in guest right that forbids host and guest from harming one another.

  • A sarcastic line directly asking Jon if he'd offer hospitality to the Others.

  • A custom held sacred by the North and beyond the Wall.

  • Evidence that the Others can bargain, through Craster, and likely eat too

  • Constant reminders that Westeros is unprepared for the Long Night.

And then there's Jon himself. His entire story is about expanding his horizons. He begins seeing the wildlings as enemies, lives among them, and eventually realizes they are simply people. Perhaps that journey isn't finished and will just continue

There's another passage that stands out

> Septon Cellador paled. "Seven save us." Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. "Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?"

> "Can they talk?" asked Jon Snow. "I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him." Maester Aemon would have grasped his purpose, Jon did not doubt; Sam Tarly would have been terrified, but he would have understood as well. "My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn."

Jon is already willing to contemplate understanding the enemy when everyone around him is horrified by the idea. And if his death and resurrection change him as we think, perhaps he'll expand his empathy one step further and seriously offer them Guest Right

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 17 days ago
▲ 43 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) You have to tell the story using 5 POVs. Who do you choose?

GRRM appears at your door in the dead of night, clutching a stack of manuscript pages and holding a lighter.

He points directly at YOU. Yes, YOU

And says

> "The original POVs are gone. Ned, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, etc. You get five minor characters, and they must carry the story from A Game of Thrones to A Dance with Dragons. Choose wisely. Otherwise I'll burn this manuscript of A Dream of Spring."

Then he disappears into the night before you can ask what happened to Winds

Rules:

  • Maximum of five POVs

  • No existing POVs

  • No major players like Tywin, Robert, Stannis, Littlefinger, Varys, etc

You should be able to piece together the broad story and ideally get some coverage of

  • The North

  • The Riverlands

  • King's Landing

  • Essos

Bonus points if your choices intersect with other areas, are very minor characters, or just work surprisingly well

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 19 days ago
▲ 56 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) The King's Mother

The other day I made a post speculating on who Lemore could be

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/5OmmoMC7cc

To do a TLDR summary, Lemore is Serra, Illyrio's wife, and Aegon's mom. She's from the female Blackfyre line. Illyrio had a sculptor who previously made a statue of him create a stone pair of hands modeled after Serra's, then used the grey plague, a disease that turns flesh to stone, as an excuse for her disappearance.

There were two questions about the whole thing;

Why the Septa facade?

Lemore is seemingly devout and doesn't tolerate blasphemous remarks

> Lemore was always pleasant company, despite her penchant for scolding him whenever he said something rude about the gods

How and why does a former prostitute, married to a slave owning Merchant, become devout enough to dedicate her life and live as a septa? She could have lived in luxury as Illyrio's wife

Why do this at all?

Remember Varys's comments on how Aegon was raised

> "Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid.

That language implies he was earmarked for kingship from infancy. If Aegon is Illyrio's son, he'd be legitimate since he was wed to Serra. Illyrio is extremely rich, and Aegon would have lived a very comfortable life as the son of a Magister.

Tyrion even notes how enormous his manse is.

> Tyrion Lannister had lived all his life in a world that was too big for him, but in the manse of Illyrio Mopatis the sense of disproportion assumed grotesque dimensions

It seems extraordinarily cruel to force a child, essentially from birth, to falsely believe he was Aegon Targaryen, son of Elia and Rhaegar, and have him live a life poorer and more dangerous than he otherwise would have, or to deny him a relationship with his actual parents.

Why the devotion to this? How could a mother lie to her child about who he is without any real urgent need to? I think there's an angle here that explains this, Aegon's upbringing and ties it in to the Blackfyres

John the Fiddler (no, really)

While we know some Targaryens are dreamers who have prophetic visions and dreams, this ability is not limited to the main branch

In The Mystery Knight, Daemon II Blackfyre is disguised as John the Fiddler. He correctly dreamed that his brothers Aegon and Aemon would die, and that Dunk would become a knight of the Kingsguard.

As Bloodraven put it

> "There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong."

With Serra most likely being a Blackfyre, as Illyrio implies the female line is still around

> When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre." The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard.

Serra having this ability would not be strange.

Griff and co's parallel

In the broad strokes, you can point to inspirations. Jon Connington is the Jasper Tudor of the story

  • Jasper was the steadfast supporter who carried the Lancastrian cause across long years of exile, much as JonCon bears the Targaryen cause. His army was made up of mercenaries, and he brought a disease (sweating sickness), similarly JonCon brings greyscale.

  • Henry Tudor was raised under Jasper's protection. Likewise, Aegon is raised under Jon's care, with Jon functioning as a surrogate father. Both heirs receive the support of a foreign backer across a narrow sea. Henry found shelter with Francis II, Duke of Brittany, while Aegon has Illyrio.

  • Henry VII was descended from the (legitimized) bastard female line of the Plantagenets. Aegon is would be descended from the (legitimized) bastard female line of the Targaryens.

But we're missing one major figure from this broad strokes version of Team Henry VII. His mother, Margaret Beaufort. A highly religious woman who helped her son become king

In pop history, Margaret raised her son believing he would be king. Philippa Gregory's novels are the most widely known portrayal of the period, and GRRM has said he read and enjoyed her books.

A quote from one of them

> This baby must be a son – this is what my vision is telling me. My son will inherit the throne of England. The horror of war with France will be ended by the rule of my son. The unrest in our country will be turned into peace by my son. I shall bring him into the world, and I shall put him on the throne, and I shall guide him in the ways of God that I shall teach him.

(The Red Queen)

3. Piecing the Puzzle

Putting it together;

  • Lemore is Serra, and the mother of Aegon

  • Lemore is a Blackfyre, and they can also obtain visions and Dragon dreams like the Targaryens

  • Aegon from before he could walk was raised to falsely be someone else and was groomed for Kingship

  • All of this despite Aegon being the legitimate son of Illyrio, a very rich man who had no other children, and loved Serra so much he angered a Prince of Pentos

I believe, while pregnant with Aegon, Lemore had a prophetic dream or vision that her son would become King, sit the Iron Throne and rule Westeros.

She gave up her relationship with her son, her luxurious life as the wife of a Magister of Pentos, and by all accounts, a loving marriage, all in pursuit of that vision.

This is how someone who was found in a pillow house

> "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra."

Suddenly became devout enough to spend over a decade living as a septa. Her ironclad faith in that vision.

u/Expensive-Country801 — 21 days ago
▲ 300 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) What's a minor line you'd retcon out of ASOIAF?

(Excluding stuff like Tyrion's acrobatics or the gold dragons, etc)

> "Yes," Septa Scolera echoed, "and you must feel so much lighter now, clean and innocent as a maid on the morning of her wedding."

> I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled. "I do," she said, "I feel reborn, as if a festering boil has been lanced and now at last I can begin to heal. I could almost fly."

While funny, I really dislike this AFfC line. The reveal that Cersei slept with Jaime on the morning of her wedding basically nullifies her confession to Ned in AGoT about when and why her resentment of Robert began, which I thought was one of the books strongest moments

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 22 days ago
▲ 774 r/asoiaf

(Spoilers Extended) Lemore's identity is staring us in the face

When GRRM does secret identities, they're usually not subtle. It's stuff a cartoon character would think was a brilliant disguise

  • Barristan becomes Arstan Whitebeard

  • Alleras = Sarella

  • Mance becomes Abel the Bard

Etc. The point is that the answer should feel obvious in retrospect. On a reread, you should be kicking yourself for missing it

Theories of Lemore being Ashara, Wenda the White Fawn or Tyene's mom have always felt off to me. They're disconnected from the story that there's no realistic way for readers to arrive at them, and even after a reread you'd never think, "Ohh of course, duh"

Lemore being Serra, Illyrio's wife, is different. Reading Tyrion's ADwD chapters showed its kinda obvious

First, Lemore definitely has a hidden identity

Tyrion figures out everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, but not her

> "he had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?"

Lemore herself says;

> "She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Serra is introduced immediately before Lemore starts standing out

In Tyrion II, Illyrio tells us about Serra

> "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her."

Two chapters later, we're introduced to a septa who is remarkably unconcerned with modesty. She bathes naked and casually chats with Tyrion afterward.

> When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye. Being randy is the next best thing to being drunk, he decided. It made him feel as if he was still alive. "Did you see the turtle, Hugor?" the septa asked him, wringing water from her hair. "The big ridgeback?"

If Serra came from a pillow house, her not caring much about modesty makes sense.

And notice how close these scenes are. We're given Serra's backstory in a pillow house, just two chapters later, see a woman associated with Illyrio's friends, around Serra's age, comfortable with nudity

Lemore had a child

> There was something wonderfully wicked about the thought of peeling the septa out of those chaste white robes and spreading her legs. Innocence despoiled, he thought … though Lemore was not near as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth.

So she had a child. And Aegon being her son provides a straightforward explanation for why this woman has spent years hiding with him and tutoring him.

We also know there's something deeper motivating Illyrio as Tyrion points out

> Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles.

If Aegon is pretending to be Rhaegar and Elia's son, then naturally she can't tell him who his real parents are. And if Serra is from the female Blackfyre line, her knowledge of Westeros and the Targaryens wouldn't be strange either

Merchant's wife

When Lemore changes clothes in Volantis, note the wording

> Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant.

Well, Illyrio is a prosperous merchant, and he did wed Serra

>"Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her

Illyrio never actually says Serra died

Tyrion assumes she did

> How did she die?" Tyrion knew that she was dead; no man spoke so fondly of a woman who had abandoned him.

But look carefully at Illyrio's answer

> "A Braavosi trading galley called at Pentos on her way back from the Jade Sea. The Treasure carried cloves and saffron, jet and jade, scarlet samite, green silk … and the grey death. We slew her oarsmen as they came ashore and burned the ship at anchor, but the rats crept down the oars and paddled to the quay on cold stone feet. The plague took two thousand before it ran its course." Magister Illyrio closed the locket. "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft …"

He never says Serra died. All he says is that the Grey Death came to Pentos, killed two thousand people, and that he keeps her hands in his bedchamber

That's it. And we know from Jaime that cast hands can be made;

> "Ser Jaime is at his armorer's being fitted for a hand. I know we were all tired of that ugly stump.

It's tricky, but technically not a lie. Illyrio would need some explanation for why his wife suddenly vanished. If anyone asks where's Serra's buried or what happened to her? Talk about the Grey Plague and offer to show the fake hands modeled after hers.

Aegon’s features

Serra is described as:

> Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver

Adds up to where Aegon gets his features from. And hair dye is everywhere in this story. Griff and Young Griff are already using it, so Lemore having brown hair isn't much of a mystery. She's literally on a boat full of people using it

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u/Expensive-Country801 — 23 days ago