u/KazuyaProta

I'm thinking a while about this.

SCP articles that are just so big, influential, and popular that they're almost always treated as the official answer in any fan question or new writers.

Series I is full of those, as its the foundational (heh) lore of the SCP Foundation, but I'm sure there are others.

I'm just really wondering, which ones are the cases where we almost always resort to a old article for the answers , or a article changing the perception of a entire organization?

I think SCP 4231 was pretty much this? It normalized the Ichabod Campaign as a core GOC backstory element , and the nature goddess element of SCP 166 is now replaced with the Lore of Lilly (meaning the entry is also a bit weird, given the clear Natural-pagan motifs of 166 in contrast to her clearly Demonic origins now). Its also Dr. Clef's most popular backstory by far, as it keeps his other traits like his skill as the ultimate Type Green hunter.

EDIT: I now realized the 166 which exists in 4231, because it was written in 2018, its actually for the SCP 0166 , the infamous succubus, which...actually makes a lot of sense and provides some really tragic and grotesque ironies worth analyzing (ie. The poor Succubus is always tied to Sexual violence since her conception)

I'm wondering for similar SCP articles or tales that exist, and are so influential that the whole "there is no canon" starts to crumble a bit.

New Job is another one, SCP 999 as a kid of the Scarlet King is a beloved concept for the inherent Titanomachia concept it provides.

Extra: Bonus point if one of those actually features something you don't like or want to consider to the others entries. IE. Djoric actually strongly disliked New Job for diluting the tragedy and horror inherent to the situation of SCP 231 where 6 woman already died after being sexually abused and a 7th one was put into constant experimentation, and made clear his personal SCPs didn't count it at all.

The Sports Festival Arc, the obligatory Tournament Arc of any shonen worth its salt.

Most commonly remembered for the introduction of Todoroki and Endeavor, there is a character's arc here that I find deeply fascinating...in a bad way.

Because it actually started good.

Bakugo vs Uraraka was a good fight that established something that Bakugo as a character clearly needed, a clear VIRTUE that he has unambiguously. In his case, its a sense of sportsmanship, to take the competition seriously, to respect Ochako for giving everything she had and viceversa.

Really, it was a good moment from both. It would have been easy to write it off as "Bakugo vents by beating Deku's best friend/girlfriend", but that is written as the in universe misconception, a product of people understimating Uraraka and , maybe accidentally (in a good way), in-universe sexism who refuses to see her as a person with her own ambitions and write her off as "the girl".

Its good for both.

Then, come Todoroki vs Bakugo, Bakugo wants to fight seriously, Todoroki refuses to use his true power, loses, Bakugo is livid and grabs him, getting violent and having to be dragged away.

...by getting sedated?

Then, he gets to the podium of First place...completely chained and muzzled? Its clearly meant to be absurd, the characters themselves poke fun at this.

....

I'm confused, as, genuinely confused. For starters, this inmediately trigger three questions.

1. The characters in MHA hit each other worse that Bakugo grabbing a collar, a adult Pro Hero CAN grab Bakugo as a normal student and take him away without sedating him

2. If its that bad, why its not a disqualification . This is the standard criticism to the scene, that isn't without meric, Bakugo's acts would be grounds for a disqualification in a IRL sports context, but clearly not for the UA festival. I actually think this last part is the intended reading.

3. If its ok, why they muzzle him and not just let scream or run away from the cameras?

I see a lot of people calling this a case of "Bakugo favoritism where Horikoshi doesn't punish him for his bad actions", but the entire writing of the scene is so bizarre.

Narratively, Horikoshi actually punished Bakugo terribly, he explicitly got a win because his rival didn't went serious on him, he himself hates that and has his pride wounded over it. This is a very understandable feeling, actually, for someone as competitive as him.

But then his anger is treated as a gag about him being treated like a rabid animal in a muzzle.

...What?

This is not favoritism, dude is explicitly a loser in his own character's arc. But at the same time, its about him being punished for demanding the exact same virtue he showed to Uraraka.

....I'm just bewildered. What Kohei Horikoshi wanted to say in Bakugo's subplot in the UA Sports festival

Quick context: Maji de Watashi ni Koishinasai!, better known as Majikoi, is a Visual Novel following the Kazama Family, a tight group of childhood friends in the fictional Kawakami City, a place with supernatural artists that include effectively all the girls in the series, leading to the English subtitle: "Oh Samurai girls" , and especifically, protagonist Yamato Naoe's personal life and relationships.

Its a wacky comedy about friendship, and very long. In fact, I'm still reading it.

But for what I've read of it... Christiane Friedrich as a heroine is utterly bizarre. Why? Because there is genuinely no reason for her to be there.

Majikoi as a plot is kicked out for Kazama, the leader of the group, deciding to add new members to the friend's group, which are the newly arrived Chris and Yukie.

Yukie is actually nice, probably too shy to the level of self sabotage, which the group constantly criticizes her for that, but that's fine

But Chris?

Her first day in school is she getting up into a fight with Kazuko Kawakami aka Wanko. In all fairness, this was actually a result of Wanko wanting a fight with her to test her strenght and this ending in she receiving a bad defeat. This is fine, Chris did not start the fire.

Then she literally tells Kazuko that she doesn't belong to the Kawakami Family, in front of the family's temple.

Kazuko is really hurt for this and Chris only regrets when she heards that she was adopted, which made it worse. But...even if she wasn't, why the heck you would say that to her anyway.

Chris is popular for being the token European girl in a Japanese highschool, and she is quite new and likes to talk to the cast in school, so Kazama wants to add her because his openness and Momoyo wants her because she is attracted to her. Wanko is fine with it because she has forgiven the insult.

But in the friend's group, Miyako and Morooka (aka Moro), outright disagree harshly, saying she directly has insulted their friend and that she is going to be a source of friction , as Chris is a over-the-top rules follower with a self declared self righterousness which she calls sense of justice.

The player gets the choice for Yamato to say No, but its irrelevant, she joins anyway.

And... this goes exactly as bad as Miyako and Moro predicted.

When Chris finally goes to the "secret base" of the Kazama family, which is a abandoned apartment which they have taken over and made inhabitable using a literal robot to provide electricity for it. Chris, straight up says that she is confused about why they prefer to do this rather than hang out in someone's house.

Valid, she is a homesick girl who prefers familiarity and doesn't get this weird arrangement taking advantage of a small city in the 2000s

Then she directly says the building should be demolished, as a moral good.

This causes the group to fight, with Miyako having to be grabbed to avoid her from punching Chris, and Moro politely expulsing Chris from the friend's group, only for Momoyo, Yamato and Kazama to override his will.

I am very fascinated for Moro's answer. He says "Fine, its ok. Leave this apartment, we wouldn't hang out a friend group, but I promise we will talk to you in school as normally". I'm not saying it word-by-word, but he set up a pretty clear boundary.

Chris just gets more self righterous.

This eventually leads to Kazama solving this by...distracting everyone with tickets, Yamato makes Chris admit that you cannot insult's someone's beloved possesions out of nowhere, and she apologizes. Fine.

Then, the trip arc and...yeah, Chris does some petty bad things there too, but those aren't that bad. Everyone in Majikoi has those moments, its a raunchy comedy after all.

Then the Prologue ends, opening sound and its time to start pulling the choices to get romances.

It was a LONG prologue, 10 hours. Chris' arc is one of many that are there.

I'm going to made it clear, I don't think Chris is a bad person, or even a bad character. But I'm genuinely fascinated (in a bad way) about her role as a romantic interest.

This is probably a case of re-alignements, where my personal values are much closer to Miyako and Moro that I actually feel they're just...completely correct about Chris.

She is a self righterous girl who has to be taught basic social courtesy from 0. Because that is what Yamato just actually does.

Meaning I can't understand why they group in-universe added her, or better said, that Momoyo and Kazama overrade everyone's else authority (including my first-run Yamato who voted No).

I can't find a way how Yamato realistically can feel attracted to her, at least at this point of the game. Sure, technically you can hang out with her until you unlock her route post Prologue.

But why I would do that?

This is something I was thinking about a lot.

I see a lot of takes talking about Korra making bending to be a genetic condition to be a retcon that was against ATLA making bending spiritual...

Except that nothing in ATLA says bending is purely spiritual?

"But the animals taught the elements" , and it was a in-universe myth, whose closer equivalent is the Badger moles taughting Toph, a native born Bender how to hone her skills from zero. The different animals are great masters of the elements, but they only are teachers who teach newbies how to be better, no animal in ATLA is shown giving bending to someone.

In ATLA, Appa, a Flying Bison, is traveling with Sokka, a non-bender, and nobody says "If Sokka wanted, he could be a airbender". Same with the Moon Spirit, as Sokka is the lover of the woman who became the new Moon Spirit, yet he never learned any waterbending despite constantly being close to water bodies.

"But he doesn't have the personality to master bending"

And every Avatar, including Aang himself, lack the personality for certain bending types yet can bend them. A huge part of Book 2 and Book 3 is about how Aang lack the psychological traits for Earthbending , he is too much of a fluid guy to master solid rock. And he quickly developed a mental lock against Firebending when he accidentally burned Katara under Jeong Jeong's tutelage.

A bender who cannot master his own element because their own psychological traits is a common thing in this world.

This is using ATLA alone.

And of course, the Air Nomads themselves. A ethnic group attuned to nature and mythicism that were so attuned that they were all Nomads...

And that is impossible because they had diverse ranges of mentality as sapient humanoids, meaning not all of them were free spirits like Aang. We do not have a full psychological profile of all of them because they're mostly flashback characters under Aang's limited POV.

But by sheer stadistics and how societies work, someone like Tenzin, a Airbender who is a rigid person who follows the rules by every letter, limits freedoms and imposes order, is unavoidable. In fact, they are a faceless Council of Monks, but those who voted to tell Aang that he was the avatar and start his training young were very eager to take away Aang's freedom for the sake of the collective.

(sorry for bringing a TLOK character, but Aang's descendents like Tenzin and his kids are the first Airbenders shows to the audience outside of Aang himself who we know enough to develop a full mental map of them as three dimensional characters).

Then, Jinora and Bumi are treated narratively as the descendants who inherited Aang's personality, yet, until the Harmonic Convergence, Bumi was a non-bender. Amusingly, it seems its this event in Korra's era that is a actual case where personality really influences if you become a bender :P

Honestly, the very premise of the franchise needs bending to be genetic in some level at the very least. Otherwise, the very idea of "Four Nations" can't happen because people with the emotional traits associated to certain Elements repeat in people from all nations. Fiery and agressive people exists everywhere, free spirits who only want to flow with the world too, people deeply concerned with life and protection too, etc. Why a Firebender can only be born to people with ancestry from the Fire Islands instead of everyone who has certain psychological traits?

Another Frieren's rant, with a dash of FMA rant!!

Actually the main victim is FMA, because the more I learn about real life alchemy, I can't but say this.

Fullmetal Alchemy's power system is significantly more boring and lame than historical Medieval Alchemy, even if limiting us to a Hermetic system. Probably a good deal of it is because simplification and POVs (our characters are actually small flies who aren't doing the Great Work with the exception of Hoennheim and Father, add Dante and Scar and his brother if we count the 2003 anime).

But this isn't really about that, but on the premise that "Alchemy is not Magic, its Science" that is told by Edward and its treated as essentially the logic of alchemy as a whole, with the only exceptions being those related to the Gate of Truth that is the ultimate Unknown (Divinity).

Frieren does the same thing, with Frieren being treated as analogous to a modern-esque Naturalist, alongside other Mages who are written with academical tropes of STEM researchers (Land's core joke is that he is a NEET who uses magic to continue being a NEET).

For both shows, that approach to their magical system is "its rare,wonderous, but its fundamentally SCIENTIFIC for sapient minds instead of being SUPERSTITION and RELIGION unlike other settings". Its part of their aesthetics, if you strip that from those shows they stop being what they are.

As a whole, I don't have a REAL issue with this. I'd say both mangas do more good than bad overall.

Except that its not a real issue as "It makes me take a star from my personal MAL list", but as "I feel those series are accidentally doing a disservice to academical standards by defining "science" in a way that is, amusingly, anti-scientific"

Why?

Because they fundamentally think "Science= STEM/ Naturalism".

Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. Because science includes study of mythology, religion, history, grammar, art and sound.

All aspects that are a part of a "Standard Ascientific Magic system".

Taking a random contemporary setting to Frieren, a series like Jujutsu Kaisen has Kekkais as part of the power system, the Barriers that made up Domains are them. A kekkai is a japanese shinto ritual that operates under exclusive rules of spiritual purification that have to be learned and memorized.

To known a old technique like Limitless or Ten Shadows, you have to read history of the Great Clans, which is, in-universe, a scientific research: History.

Baki the Grappler has martial artists, but the characters actually do know a lot of biology and healthcare with scientific accumen. They're superhuman, but a lot of the series hypes it by having the characters know exactly what biological laws are they breaking. Characters like Doctor Kureha , whose scientific job is right there in the title and Jack Hanma (willing test subject cooperating in scientific researchs) ARE explicitly contributing to scientific research in universe

Back to FMA, I find it really curious because IRL Alchemy has very explicit religious elements that are the core of it. The origins of alchemy were debated, as if coming from the Watchers (the angels who fathered the Nephilim) or from the Archangels themselves, but many alchemists considered it a angelic art.

Or better said, Magic in the Nasuverse or To Aru's Magic-Side is more closer to IRL Alchemy than FMA's Alchemy. As weird it sounds.

Idol Theory from the To Aru's franchise is not called "Science" because, again, the author Kamachi falls into this premise of "STEM is real Science", when the amount of research and accuracy for the religious rituals needed is absolutely scientific research of History and Mythology that would made you a Bachelor of Arts in a IRL educative system.

This is not even pointing the obvious part of "those "ascientific" magic actually produce tangible results" which is univeral to all settings where the supernatural is real.

But the issue comes in that even if you switched off their magical powers, those characters would be considered highly cultured academics even if they are talking only about magical fairies and sun gods, because past a level, that research is academical job that can be cross tested and shared as History and Comparative Mythology.

EDIT, a good example of what I meant that I realized when I read commentaries, thanks you guys!:

Bonus point to a particularly amusing case when you think about it a lot.

Flame Alchemy is a special type of alchemy that works by forcing inmediate combustion in oxygen, using a small spark as the source that causes mass combustion.

The symbol used to represent it is a Salamander's glyph. Roy treats it as something that he can reasonable erase from history by burning Riza's back, thus erasing it until a independent researcher finds up.

The symbols are a Salamander, Hermetic art representing the four elements, ordered as a Star of David/Seal of Solomon, and a literal drawing of fire, mixed with the symbol for water to fully represent oxygen, the shared thing that both Fire AND Water share (AKA. The real life alchemy's point of Roy's badass quote mocking Lust for thinking he was weaker when wet, because Roy says that the weakness is not having the ability to produce sparks, but that humidity means high oxygen, which is a plus).

...this makes me ask the following questions:

1. Does religion exists in FMA even in modern Amestris is atheistic? In 2003 this is a sure yes, but dunno Amestris of the manga. Those symbol are too tied to medieval Christianity and Judaism.

2. If those exists, then Roy isn't preventing anything, because like, "of course adding like 3 different fire symbols over the Elemental seals makes Firepowers!"

The Veil in SCP Foundation fan discussions is a interesting topic.

Previously, protecting it was considering a worth endeavor, even if applied ruthlessly. A lot of discussion in the 2010s was that it could be too radical and extreme from part of pro veil groups like the SCP Foundation and the GOC.

But now the view in the fanbase and many authors is a lot more negative, with the Veil being treated as the embodiment of the current status quo (bad thing).

There is a explanations that is based on sociological, as the Serpent Hand's and Gamers Against Weed, the two most known anti veil group, got coded as modern 21th century left wing progressive groups and LGBTQ+ groups, the anomalous outcasts, and thus, the Veil is wholly negative.

But a huge part of why this happened?

Because the SCP Foundation's genre slowly shifted and expanded. There is No Canon, but there are many canons that in a way or other are treated as broad strokes that are universally considered canon in one way or another.

For a uncontroversial one, everyone assume that if a file mention SCP (Number), it means exactly that SCP listed in the wiki, thus bypassing the fan-tip of "Every entry is its own timeline", because the "unless stated otherwise are staggering".

And what with that?

That while the SCP Foundation famously started as a horror story (and its still firmly into horror), many canons and part of the worldbuilding have made clear the Foundation is actually a Urban Fantasy setting that used to be a High Fantasy setting until relatively recent.

And so, the Veil moves from "necessary for society to function" to "literally just winners deciding who has a right to exist and be remembered, to a degree that is ridiculously totalitarian even by IRL Totaliarian ideas".

A quick example is comparing a lot of Series I SCPs, where the monster is...the monster. Very straightfoward. The Foundation contains monsters, some better, some worse.

This is NOT a complain, I absolutely love many modern SCP. SCP 9330 is absolutely one of my favorites for how it ruthlessly mocks the idea that the Foundation thinks they tamed the supernatural and genuinely were thinking "Mass Human sacrifice wouldn't affect people in anomalous way because its INDUSTRIALIZED human sacrifice".

But I absolutely think it can be alienating, as many actually were fond of the idea of "Cold but not Cruel" as a interesting narrative path of people who want to protect the world but are forced to be ruthless to do so.

Fortunately, there is not really a barrier to prevent people from doing new stories with the Foundation as such.

But the concept of the Veil is now one that I find its permanently stained for the lore expansions making clear that actually, the SCP Foundation world was pure High Fantasy until very recently.

(Note: High Fantasy doesn't mean utopian, so saying "but there were villains there too" doesn't change it. High Fantasy has Sauron and Morgoth, the Scarlet King is peak High Fantasy, for example)

What I find curious is that essentially, many early appareances of the GOC made them to be competent, but more violent counterparts of the SCP Foundation. Later, they got more nuance to become a more beloved, sympathetic faction. But now, they're also equally villainous in the same way because the Veil is now framed as a negative.

Why? Because the cosmic horror of "humans are ants, and thus the veil of ignorance is good" isn't true anymore. There are reliable, widely organized different magical traditions that solve the issue without the need for the SCP Foundation (or the GOC). The GOC can say they are just doing their old jobs but with UN funding at least.

But the idea that keeping humanity unaware of the supernatural doesn't sound reasonable at all, because now the reality is unambiguously magical.

Bonus because I like to think about it: I still find how Gamers Against Weed became a Tumblr community quite strange seeing it was clearly 4Chan coded, sure, it was more /x/ than /pol/, but /x/ is the place where you find genuine reactionary mysticism because you have someone who actually thinks Magic is real and pre-modern magic was obviously based on things like hardcore gender essentialism that alienates modern sensibilities. But this is just my own observation and depending how you frame it, criticism.

The answer is a huge, depends. But that's why I question.

Levels, the gameplay mechanic in a RPG where you see your progress measured as a Single, visible Number. Level 1 (or 5/10) for a starter player, Level 2 for the early game monster, etc.

A mechanic popularized for roleplaying.

Initially capped at level 10 (de facto) in the original version of Dungeon and Dragons where it was a wargame where the goal was to become your own variant of Warlord, this mechanic became universal in many RPGs, almost synonimous with the genre because its quick, intuitive way to highlight progress, there is always ONE level more.

However, I'm just thinking... how real are they in-universe? And that is what made me think about it.

In modern DND, and since ever actually, Levels are mostly symbolic, a tool for the player and the game master. This is the core mechanic in most CRPGs based on Western Role Playing Games, Levels exists but are symbolic of your skills. You unlocked new abilities when leveling up, but the level on itself wasn't a huge jump except for the higher HP bar.

But in a JRPG, leveling up makes you stronger in every stat, with the numbers in the screen usually being far bigger than the WRPGs counterparts.

This isn't because the characters are inherently stronger. A character from Exalted is often the final boss of a standard JRPG, but their numbers and stat levels are much more humble because the progression isn't gauged like that.

Obviously, the settings don't have to share ways to gauge them. This isn't asking for the creation of a universal "Stat translation system", that's absurd.

But then... well, there is a very popular franchise with Levels that is...really curious about this.

Where you have a machine that gives you the exact level of the characters involved. Machine that exists In-Universe.

Pokemon. And that machine is the Pokedex. Where, in the first handheld games at first, the interface canonically exists as the Pokedex. A concept that was kept in other games, like the Pokegear or Pokenav in future games. But the thing is, the Pokedex is what made that Exp. Bar you saw in the game. It existed in-universe as something that you can gauge.

This actually explain in-universe how Red and Green advance so fast, its not JUST they're child geniuses, they have a perfect way to optimize their teams and see how they are doing.

This is...really strange to think around, but then, Pokemon Adventures, the long running manga that exists as long as the anime, actually has Levels as a canonical fact of the story. Our protagonist's teams have levels, canonical levels.

So...yes, Pokemon levels are something that exists within the world. The characters don't speak much of them...but when a NPC says something like needing a Level... they may not actually be speaking translated to Player Speak, but very well actually haveing said that in universe.

Later, many stories influenced for the above WRPGs and JPRGs DO feature levels as truly accepted, in universe mechanics, the LitRPG genre is particularly infamous for this, as its the Gaming Fantasy world subgenre in Japanese otaku circles, where the plot is usually kickstarted for something that allows the MC to game/rig the circunstances to become high leveled and leave their town/area of comfort/ bad situation.

And this just made me think... in a world where Levels is a widely accepted metric of progress, going back to the classic RPG view of levels being abstractions should be existencially terrifying. Even if you got to keep the status view to know where you are, realizing that this time, you depend of skills rather than pure levels must be nightmarish.

But more interestingly...

How do levels work in those worlds where levels are canonical things...for those outside of us.

From a player metric, the idea is clear, you start in a town, move and level up until you reach the endgame which is at the limit of the Level cap. But from the civilian POV... what the heck is going on?

Its a tourist from the endgame area capable to conquer and slaughter the early game cities if he just wanted so?

Many satirical settings think so, but its just the logical extrapolation of the above mentioned "Levels are Diegetic" situation. Different settings in many Satirical takes on the genre such as the Eroge series Rance have such situation. But the thing is...this is a satire, but what is going on with the normal settings where critters from the endgame areas are that strong?

The issue is that the satire here is just the logical consequence. A random encounter from Victory Road just needs to do downwards and unless the Guards are actually Victory Road level trainers (they may be for real), then they could just downwards and devastate Virindian City if Giovanni isn't there, or just skip it and go to devaste Pallet Town (unless Oak carries his un-used Pokemon team from the deleted files).

Yes, this means that in the instant that Oak came to congratulate us for beating Green...the town was completely at the mercy of some angry Tentacruels.

The situation already became a cruel satire in a single scene. What the HECK is going on?

Gym Leaders suddenly stop being simply athletes and become warlords protecting civilization from nature's wrath ready to destroy them, which is NOT what they are meant to be. But its like, c'mon, Blaine and his fire types are essentially the only thing preventing the Cinnabar Islands from being wiped out by the...strays in the empty Pokemon mansion, let alone the wild life.

And this actually makes Pokemon to be one of the SAFEST settings because they actually do have a proper guardian. This makes the average JRPG town from a setting like the first Final Fantasy games to be incredibly bizarre unless they all have warriors actually as powerful as the Player when they arrive.

The most bizarre thing is the existence of the Starter Town in any RPG.

Any, all of them, Western AND Eastern.

Why?

Because the story of the world's savior always happens to start in the weakest area in the map.

Why?

The average guard of the endgame town by necessity is much stronger than most of the world, they must be. So why the Chosen One starts their travel in the weaker area?

Someone airlift the Chosen One from the starting town to the endgame town for proper military training. Quick!!

....but this is my true conclusion here:

How we ever made this leap?

From Levels being simply "This is how much you have advanced as Magic User and Fighting Men, its just a abstract view" to being a in-universe power scaling tool? This isn't new at all, many RPGs already said levels were somewhat real. Rance, the franchise I mentioned where Levels are super important and the MC , the titular Rance, is important because he lacks a level cap and breaks the usual power progression of the world (which means he lives by regular JRPG rules while everyone else not) started in 1989, its really that old and easy to satirize.

How we even made those cognitive leaps?

Its just the inherent need to quantify information when applied to a fantasy setting where Individuals are just inherently superior to others?

The big weird thing for me is actually, the existence of individual Monsters, mobs.

For humans, it makes sense that the High level guy isn't just going down to anhilate the low level towns. If they want to simply kill people for fun, there is more fun in relative peers, if they actually want to kill everyone, they plot for plans for the true death of everything.

...but for wild animals and predators such as a mob monsters, it's just amusing how they haven't caused the extinction by outcompeting the rest of the ecosystem.

This isn't a hate to RPG, I love them... It's just me thinking how curious is that our Protagonist always starts in the weaker place of the game. And how that place even exists.

Does anyone feel confused about its role?

I feel most of the fanbase has already accepted that the COC is fundamentally, a test run of SMT V in both mechanics and writing, as the characters are introduced in the Canon of Creation, but the actual bulk of their personalities for characters like Tao, Tsukiyomi, Yuzuru and Miyazu are in the COV.

Fundamentally, the only character who actually gets more in the COC than in Vengeance, is Dazai and Abdiel. Who is by discard, because its not like they're framed as the central figures of the Canon of Creation.

So, SMT Vengeance is... a really weird game structurally speaking.

SMT V is a playable beta which was sold alongside the new, true version with the actual story.

But SMT V COC is actually still canon, as its a timeline branch coexisting within the same brane/multiversal cluster as SMT V Vengenace. Every new gameplay starts before this division of timelines.

But bruh, it gets really weird, especially because the surreal intro scene creates a divergence POV that just pops out Yoko from nowhere (but not literally from nowhere, she is there, having lived as a Bethel agend who was hated for her superiors in Vengeance, but not existent in the Canon of Creation).

Its just completely odd to think on a storytelling way.

Yes, you grabbing the hand of the Girl at the start of the game is the choice that defines which timeline you end up. But... how?

Nahobino only became important after, well, becoming a Nahobino. So why he was given this huge, cosmic choice before the events of SMT V?

Also, the implication that every player who started the Canon of Creation just choose to let Yoko/ The Girl sealed for all eternity just to appease the ominious authoritarian voice TM. So every SMT V vanilla player start as a dick in minute 1??

That is the official, canonical, playable in game timeline Branch. Nahobino MC, who as the other half of Aogami, is characterized as a chivalrious character, the literal Dragonslayer who slays the dragon to save the Princess, deciding or not to let a Girl hostage at the orders a Ominous Authoritarian Voice. That is the COC.

Nahobino being a dick who rejects his inherently heroic nature.

What a bizarre choice.

I'm sure someone will argue that this is because its a Law vs Chaos choice, the very first one and that Vengeance is about rejecting the cosmic cycle and Creation is about choosing to preserve it.

But it actually doesn't, because simple game design. The Ominous Voice TM speech about Yoko and how her existence would cause pain is unambiguously villainous dialogue, no new player would think "Yeah, he is right, the jailed girl is a cosmic danger that should be left alone" (and in fact, Vengeance is Vengeance because Yoko's tragic backstory is being the girl isolated and hated for the world).

EDIT: Weirdest thing here is that the plot of SMT V Vengenace is framed on a simple psychological concept, the Madonna Whore complex. This is a compelling, deeply intimitate version of Law (Tao) vs Chaos (Yoko), and fitting for the MC Nahobino, who is the Dragonslayer and the ultimate Young Man who must choose if follow the social order or break it. But the great choice of slutshaming (metaphysically) is done not in Tao's sake, as choosing her over Yoko makes explicit that is not about hating her.

But the choice to be a dick is on the COC, where you just decide to leave the caged girl because you decided to be a asshole that day. No, nobody else will ever realize it. And any player who did it was doing it because they wanted to be a evil walkthrought. Why? Because we are JRPG players and everyone knows that if a Voice says "their existence will cause chaos and darkness" about a pretty girl, we know they're wrong and even if it does cause it, then we fight that darkness anyway.

"But that is the point, Yoko is right, the COC is the bad ending that is a merely following the social scripts"

Except that this is completely inexistent within the COC, which I have to remind, was sold separately as a stand alone videogame in the Switch where Nahobino is presented as straightfowardly heroic.

Asura in Megaten is a really odd character.

I already mentioned how weird it is that Michael's role after SMT I was demoted from an endgame threat to merely one of the Archangels, and I still believe it.

But his Chaos counterpart, Asura, is even worse, because he simply doesn't exist in that role anymore. Yes, Both Michael and Asura were the Final Boss once, which sounds odd to everyone nowadays.

In SMT II, we discover he is Virocana, but his role is quite minor, as Lucifer takes over as the main Chaos figure.

It takes until SMT: Strange Journey for Asura to be important again, where he becomes the antagonist of the Delphinus Sector and the creator of the Delphinus Parasite, which drives people to violent madness. Later, he returns to take his true form, Ashera, revealing herself as one of the Mothers, the group behind the original game.

Asura encompasses Virocana, Dainichi Nyorai, Ashera, Ahura Mazda, and the King of the Asuras.

Asura himself is weird; he isn't a single species, but rather a category of being. That is why his actual Japanese name is Asura-O, the King of Asuras.

He is also the mainstay Ultimate Persona of the Sun Arcana in Persona 3, 4, and 5, and an unlocked fusion via the Anguished One's FATE system rank 3.

He is memorable, with an iconic, cool design and a defined ideology and personality.

But why is he here? Because he peaked early, and every game makes him even weirder due to how complex he is in theory.

Any of those roles: Virocana, Ahura Mazda, or Ashera, would be great for an SMT game's antagonist or final boss, yet he never gets the chance.

Frankly, the more I think about it, it's weird that Ashera isn't just Mem Aleph. If the intention was to create a female counterpart to YHVH on the Chaos side, using Ashera rather than inventing Mem Aleph—who is literally just two letters; yes, "MA" is iconic, but she doesn't exist mythologically—would have made more sense, especially since Ashera already showed the exact same hatred for human sapience during the Delphinus arc.

This is only the missed potential of ONE of Asura's faces.

The fact that he is Vairocana and Ahura Mazda also strikes as odd, because either of them is already perfect material for a Final Boss material representing the Buddhist cycle of rebirth (perfect as the final antagonist of a world about rejecting Enlightenment and embracing the world as it is, or rejecting the world because the just world fallacy embodified for him) or Ahura Mazda, as a equal demiurgic figure who created the world and the very same guy who is infamously the origin of the Good and Evil of Nietzsche's beyond.

...this hasn't happen, and its just really odd for a guy who was the Final Boss for the Law route in SMT I

And of course, the weird thing of SJ where Ashera exists and despite being literally Elat (aka, Literally female El, the title given to YHVH in real life Near East myth), the role of "Genderbend YHVH" is given to Mem Aleph (who doesn't exist) and Shekinah (which is widely considered to be a title for Ashera). It's incredibly weak, especially after SMT SJ already established a way to make Asura directly related to the YHVH /Abrahamic mythos by making him Ashera.

Essentially, Asura Oh is a weird character. He was explicitly stated to be Ahura Mazda forced into a demonic form rising up in SMT I. Perfect final boss material.

Then in SMT II, he is revealed to also be Vairocana, ruling the afterlife as the god of reincarnation. Not his plot, but its a huge role that means that actually, every mortal human SMT character will meet him, which is a huge thing...

In SMT SJ, Ashera's twist gives Asura a direct connection to the world of the Near East mythos. Its impressive, now its not more a East vs West rivality, he himself bridges the rivality without needing Lucifer and the demons to have a personal link with the world of demons, angels, dragons and lords.

He is still the reward for every Sun Arcana SL at the very least. Which is also genuinely odd to think, because his demonized form is actually being the ultimate embodiment of a very positive arcana, which implies Asura actually absorbs the positive aspects of all his selves (many games imply Asura is his "war mask", so its more complex than Asura being a lesser form).

This guy is actually deeply fascinating, being endgame material from multiple angles

This is something I think its pretty bad, but I feel many, not even people criticizing the series think much about, but sadly, I'm someone who just feels it.

I really dislike the Horsemen from CSM as a concept.

Conquest, War, Famine, Death. The 4 arch-villains of the CSM world.

The reason for my dislike? Simple: Why they are organized as a Christian mythological concept in a world where Christianity doesn't exist as a meaningful metaphysical force.

The Devils from CSM are clearly not christian devils, or devils from any mythological source. They are personifications of fears, especifically fears on themselves. A devil is inherently a violent existence, even benevolent Devils are still fundamentally ruthless creatures with a way too high bar for violence above humans.

And they are the only supernatural thing that exists. Their power is the only metaphysical thing in the cosmos of CSM, with all other things like Contracts and Hybrids being born from them. There is not a true Holy concept here, as the Angel Devil is still a Devil, just one based on the fear towards the divine.

This is fine. But it makes the Four Horsemen as a concept existing to be extremely weird, as there is no reason for those 4 fears to be considered such high tier.

This leads to bizarre things like the weird Yoru's quote of "War didn't exist until Part 2", because trying to keep her separate from Conquest is completely absurd. Makima, a Japanese representant, fought against the Gun Devil as a WMD send for the United States of America in a battle that killed thousands of persons across Japan. Then Makima launched a coup against Public Safety, where her uniformed combatants fought uniformed combatants.

The logical issue starts here because Control is achieved under acts that are clearly War. And thus, Yoru should have been strenghtened for it , only the rules of Christian theology (which CSM doesn't follow) make her a separate fear (and not even so, as the idea is everyone is together inherently)