u/Key-Quarter-9581

▲ 5 r/asoiaf

Quite a big Retcon/backtracking [SPOILERS Published]

In Sansa 4th chapter in AGOT we get a list of people attained as traitors & while some of these names make sense with later books, but a few of these do not (bolded) and I haven't seen anyone pick up on this:

"The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Ser Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thoros of Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion. Lady Lysa Arryn and her son, the little Lord Robert. Lord Hoster Tully, his brother Ser Brynden, his son Ser Edmure. Lord Jason Mallister. Lord Bryce Caron of the Marches. Lord Tytos Blackwood. Lord Walder Frey and his heir Ser Stevron. Lord Karyl Vance. Lord Jonos Bracken. Lady Sheila Whent. Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons. So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a whole flock of ravens to send out these commands."

This basically means the Vale & Dorne were also suppose to go against the Iron Throne . What do you think was the original plan?

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u/Key-Quarter-9581 — 8 hours ago
▲ 152 r/asoiaf

[spoiler Extended] In hindsight, The kingsguard was the best option for Jaime, lol.

I saw a post saying how Jaime dodged a bullet by not marrying Elia, but really all 3 of pre-brienne his love interests are crazy:

Cersei is Cersei, psychopathic narcissist

Elia is a dumb as Cersei, and she doesn't even have the execuse of all the shit Cersei endured & not being trained in politics.

Lysa was just shy but went crazy after her affair with Petyr

TL;DR: Jaime's only sane love interests are Brienne & Catelyn.

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u/Key-Quarter-9581 — 22 days ago
▲ 15 r/asoiaf

[spoilers extended] Catelyn dodged a bullet

So if the play is cannon that means Brandon was a serial philanderer (like Robert). Which given how Cat puts so much emphasis on family probably means their marriage wouldn't have been a happy one.

All hail Aerys the wise, for getting rid of that Brandon, a true successor to Baelor the beloved as he too believes in marital fidelity & loving your family.

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u/Key-Quarter-9581 — 22 days ago
▲ 1 r/asoiaf

On Ashara [Spoilers MAIN]

Ashara Dayne is an interesting figure in ASOIAF, introduced as a background character all the way back in AGOT, with her name only appearing twice in text she has a surprising deep lore & connection to the POV characters that however is quite cryptic and has expended with each book in the series all the way to ADWD. In this post I will analyze all information presented in the series in a chronological order and throw my hat into the ring on who is the character that “dishonored” her at Harrenhall. Since the play is releasing soon-ish, which will reveal more details on what happened there I thought it would be interesting to see what we now of Ashara already.

A Game of Thrones:

As previously mentioned, she is introduced in the first book but information is sparse, with her name only being mentioned thrice.

The first two times, it’s quite early in the book, the 6^(th) chapter in fact, Catelyn II:

“That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.”

“That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.”

This is when Cat wonders about Jon, why Ned would raise and who is his mother, with the implication being that Ashara might be the one. We get a physical descrpiton of her, fair-skinned and tall and noteworthy that she has purple eyes, something that only Targaryens/Valyrians, have. We also get a lot of info on her brother Arthur and his sword, and despite Ned having slain him, he is implied to be on good enough terms with Ashara, something that raises an eyebrow. Eddard also reacts very strongly to Cat confronting him although we don’t know if it was the mention of Ashara that specifically upset him, since he only discuses Jon.

The information is presented in an indirect fashion, with Catelyn hearing about her from castle workers, who themselves may or more likely aren’t eye witnesses to the events they talk about.

The final mention of Ashara is by Cersei near the end of the book in Eddard XII:

““Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?””

This time its directly states she is Jon’s mom, and we also learn that she committed suicide but it’s from a very unreliable source, Cersei who couldn’t have been part of those events, and it’s not even sure she heard rumors of what happened or just simply that’s how she imagined it would have gone, only knowing the general events.

A Clash of Kings:

IN ACOK she is mentioned only once, by Catelyn, pretty much a redux of her thoughts in Catelyn II of the previous book, thinking she might be Jon’s mother.

“They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.”

A Storm of Swords:

In ASOS we are introduced to the Tourney at Harrenhall, in Bran II. The events described set up the tournament which is expended with more information in later chapters. GRRM has a knack of doing that, introducing info in one chapter & expanding on it a later one in a completely different storyline, often with misdirection (“Tansy”).

“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.”

After waking up, Bran’s told by Meera how the Starks of that generation, Lyanna, Eddard, Benjen & Brandon, went to Harrenhal for a tournament and they helped fend off some bullies that were harassing Howland. During the actual event Ned danced with Ashara but only after Brandon introduced her to him. But he wasn’t her only dance partner there were others who are not directly named in-text but interestingly enough George has provided their names on a Citadel FAQ in 2007 (https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_were_the_different_people_in_Meeras_story/) . “A white sword” is certainly a kingsguard but who exactly is hard to say as all 7 were present, Jamie left early though and Barristan couldn’t have been the one for reasons I’ll get to later. “A red snake” is Oberyn Martel and “lord of griffins” is Jon Con, Noteworthy is that Meera got this information from her father, a direct participant in the events.

In Arya VIII Edric Dayne & Harwin seem to confirm a romance between Ned & Ashara

“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say.

“Why did she [Ashara] jump in the sea, though?”

 “Her heart was broken.”

 Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “

Did someone break it?”

 He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place . . .”

“Tell me.”

 He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”

“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”

“I’m sure he did, my lady, but—”

 “She was the only one he loved.”

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. “My father had honor,”

….

It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. “Where do you think you’re going, milady? You shouldn’t run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things.”

“I’m not afraid,” she said. “That boy Ned said . . .”

“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around.

 “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

 “She killed herself, though,” said Arya uncertainly. “Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea.”

 “So she did,” Harwin admitted, as he led her back, “but that was for grief, I’d wager. She’d lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning.”

There are a few things to note here. Edric has gotten his information from his aunt, Allyria, but clarified by secondary sources she herself wasn’t at Harrenhall, so she probably got the information from Dayne retainers who were there. So we now have three sources on the tourney:

- from Howland Reed a participant, through Meera

-From the Stark Household who presumably were there, who spread tales at Winterfell

-From Dayne family or their retainers

All three sources agree that there was something going in between Ned & Ashara. The most important thing to note is the matter of honor, with Arya believing that Eddar would have dishonored himself by being in a relation with Ashara while Harwin defends him by saying that since he wasn’t betroth to Cat than he wasn’t dishonoring himself. The question is, would Ashara be dishonored by her relation with Ned?

Sidenote, we get more information on who Jon’s mother might be from Edric in the same chapter.

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

 “Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

 “Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”

 “Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

Wylla was mentioned in AGOT, in Eddard II:

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

 “Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

 “Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . ”

Edric confirms that Wylla is a real person and not a name that Eddard just made up. If Wylla isn’t Jon’s mother (very likely she isn’t, for narrative reasons) then that means that the Dayne are cooperating with Eddard to cover up who the mother is. And considering that Edric is probably named after Eddard this shows that the Dayne have a very close relation with Ned Stark, something that many fans have pointed out is weird, considering that he killed Arthur & they themselves believe he contributed to Ashara’s suicide.

ADWD

No information on Ashara is provided in AFFC, but we get something very juicy in ADWD from Barristan, in the Kingbreaker chapter. (sidenote: I hate how GRRM just changes chapter names even if it’s the same character POV, it make sense for those characters that suffer identity issues but other nah & it’s annoying when looking up info)

“Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring. The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab. Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter … But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?”

Noteworthy is that Barristan is the only direct participant in the events who tells us the story as he saw it. Previously we only got info second or third hand.

We learn that the tournament at Harrenhall might have been a plot to dethrone Aerys, organized by Rhaegar, although Barristan himself doesn’t know fully, he thinks that Arthur Dayne would have and it’s also possible Oswald Whent too since the tourney was organized by his brother. We learn that Barristan had a thing for Ashara that he never acted on and that he thinks someone dishonored her, and that person might have contributed to her suicide, and she wouldn’t have turned to Stark if he crowned her the Queen of Love & Beauty.

Many fans believe it’s noteworthy that Barristan doesn’t name Eddard directly, and intentionally or unintentionally they also say that the man who dishonored & that Stark was the same person. Thus began a theory, which I first heard from Preston Jacobs although I don’t think he is the one who created it, that the Stark who dishonered Ashara was Brandon. The evidence given can be categorized as follows:

-Ned was an honorable & shy guy so he wasn’t likely to romance someone out of wedlock

-Brandon was however we do now he was a hothead (or had wolfblod as Eddard put in Arya II: “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”)

-We know from Barbery Ryswell that Brandon liked to sleep around (the turncloack chapter: “Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted.”)

-Barristan is friendly with Ned despite holding a grudge against the person who dishonored Ashara

-Ned doesn’t think about Ashara in his POV chapter

I disagree with this for several reasons:

-first I don’t think Brandon would get involved with his brother’s crush (and if he would, I think Eddard would mention it in his POV chapter)

-second, none of the previous sources mentioned a relation between Ashara & Brandon, all of them agreed on a relation between Ashara & Ned

-third, it doesn’t seem that a relation between the Stark & Ashara was a secret (Barristan doesn’t think of it as one) so Brandon having a semi-public fling with the daughter of an important family, while betroth to Catelyn, seems too stupid even for a hothead. And if he did there would be hell raised by the Tullys & Daynes, something not mentioned by sources.

-Fourth Barristan is a pushover, he served with Jamie on the Kingsguard for years despite hating him for being a Kingslayer. He would not really bear a grudge against Eddard due to his own jealousy.

But moving on from that theory, I want to analyze the Barristan passage more since there is a lot to talk about.

First, it’s important to note that the person who dishonored Ashara & the Stark is not neccesarly the same person, they are mentioned in different parts of the passage and different context.

Second, it’s interesting to note the timeline of events, Barristan believes that if he won the tourney “She wouldn’t have turned to Stark”, this means that her turning to Stark is near the end of the tournament or even after it’s over. Also the previous source (Reed) mentioned Stark coming to Ashara not the other way around, so this event must be a different one then the dance.

So the sequence of events is as follows:

The Starks come upon Howlan Reed -> The tourney begins -> ashara & ned dance -> the crowning of the Queen of Love & Beauty by Rhaegar -> Ashara turns to Stark

Third, it’s important to note what Barristan refers to when he say that Ashara committed suicide out of the grief of her stillborn child & perhaps the man who dishonored her? Does he mean she grives for him? The way it’s worded that’s the most likely interpretation but it’s weird she is grieving for someone who dishonored her. The second one is that she committed suicide partially due to the grief she received from the man who dishonored her.

So now onto theories:

-The Brandon/Ashara theory, I discussed it above so I won’t repeat here.

-The Ned/Ashara theory, they fall in love at Harrenhall perhaps there is even a promise of marriage but that ends with Robert’s Rebellion, so he dishonors her that way, at least in Barristan opinion. Now why would the Dayne still have a good opinion of Ned? Because, if we assume that Jon’s Rhaegar & Lyanna’s son, which is 95% likely, then Ned was carrying Arthur’s last mission, to defend Rhaegar’s family, and keep in mind, if someone found out, then Ned & likely his entire family would be executed, so he is taking a great risk to himself & his close ones as a matter of honor (and familial loyalty, although it’s hard to say that the Dayne knew that last part). This, alongside having good relation with Ashara & bringing Dawn back probably made the Dayne have a very favorable view of Ned. Now some people believe that Ashara is not dead, I’m 50/50 on that but if she isn’t that another reason why the Daynes wouldn’t hate Ned and if she is, then she likely griefed for the fact that she couldn’t be with him.

-And my theory: Oberyn is the one who dishonors Ashara and she runs to Ned for comfort. Now hear me out: It’s already all but stated that Rhaegar tried to depose his father and that the tourney was a way of gathering support for that cause. We also know that Arthur was in on the scheme. So if he was on the scheme who should be brought in next? Perhaps Arthur’s sister? So the dancing might have been a way of organizing support beneath notice. And if we look at who Ashara danced with, JonCon is already on Rhaegar’s side, the White Sword might be and Oberyn likely has a more positive view of Rhaegar then his father who said his grandsons smelled dornish. But that might not be enough to guarantee loyalty for a coup or civil war. In this case there might have been some promises made, perhaps marriage promises. And when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love & Beauty that slighted Elia and the Martells by association, which is something that would have pissed Oberyn likely ending any marriage pact between them. This might have spurned her to go to Ned for comfort. Now on to the grieving part, she might have grieved for him because his sister died & Ashara felt she failed her.

So what do you guys think?

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u/Key-Quarter-9581 — 1 month ago