u/MischievousCreations

Audio is from The Looney Tunes Show.

https://youtu.be/g7Rc7w69-z8?si=nhrDQ2OObF8vNiHY

Art by puzzlekick: https://x.com/puzzlekick/status/2086079383132098659

Plush keychain by danteKris: https://x.com/dantekris2013/status/2087851154268962850

So this is actually based on a somewhat popular theory on twitter among Val fans that Valentino projects a lot of his own personal insecurities onto Angel.

A relevant twitter thread: https://x.com/lavindicat/status/2064021526068765116

This theory is not made by me, I just want it archived on reddit and not in hard to search twitter threads before s3.

First let's go over the feet part:

Angel has an insecurity over his feet but from what it seems like in the scripts, Val is causing/ encouraging that insecurity by keeping in lines like "keeping my whoreboots on because my feet are ugly as fuck" (lmao at the script)

Scripts: https://www.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotel/s/k34dpsqGG4

Anyways, you know who has pretty weird feet (that I personal adore)? Valentino. And he also doesn't wear shoes that fit his feet shape. He wears heels despite his feet being sticks.

Second part is that Val likely has a ED:

ED speculation compilation : https://www.reddit.com/r/Valentino_Cult/s/8vilvKPUWj

Angel also makes comments like "And I'm just a sex worker in a dress whose lunch was three cigarettes."

The industry that Valentino controls puts so much emphasis on appearances and weight so as someone who represents a lot of the worst parts of the industry, Val having an ED makes sense.

Also add on to the idea of Val making his insecurities everyone's problems: Both Angel and Travis (people who work under Val) have a gold tooth just like Val (which I tried to highlight in the last panel of the comic).

I guess maybe also Vox and Val having matching broken Antenna but I feel like Val wouldn't be able to force his insecurities onto Vox the same way he can with Angel. I think it's either by accident/concidence or Vox doing it on purpose/willingly.

My thoughts:

I actually wrote a few somewhat relevant discussion posts before so I will link them here:

Connection to Hollywood Glamour: https://www.reddit.com/r/Valentino_Cult/s/7kOU4fzAZy

Parallels to Angel: https://www.reddit.com/r/Valentino_Cult/s/R6fxqxhZA5

In general, I think this dynamic is both interesting but also makes a lot of sense considering the themes of each character.

In my opinion, Angel's arc is about self love with coping habits so having Valentino having similar issues but choosing to hurt others and foiling Angel adds a lot to the story.

Bonus thing: I've also been a fan recently of the idea of Val dying in his late 30s to 40s now because the idea of him being jealous that Angel died in his twenties because his view of beauty and value is so fucked up.

"If I knew hell existed, I would have killed myself sooner in my prime. Angel baby, you're soooo lucky you overdosed".

This is from the old sinstagram.

None of which are canon any more but I do find the energy of this post funny and wouldn't mind seeing some of it s3

https://x.com/senia\_soft/status/1762214037012525485

I really don't want to make this post but I decided to because it's starting to really annoy me. I just want to write out my annoyances and then stop caring about it/go back to making random comics or theories for hopefully at least 3 months.

It's mostly a loooong rant so feel free to just move on. It's just me venting.

My focus on this post is on the double standard between the vees and Val so I'm not bring up Alastor or Adam etc. I don't want this to devolve into ship wars or war crime scaling.

This also a mix of both behaviors I see on reddit and twitter.

People treat Valentino as a separate monster from Vox and Velvette

This shows in a lot of ways, the main one is that people act like Vox and Velvette are villains that are “Okay” to be liked, while Valentino is only meant to be hated. 

Don’t get me wrong, Val is a monster and does many hateable crimes. He’s also introduced with his crimes in comparison to Vox who gets his worst sides shown s2… But he’s not actually been depicted in a different/separated way from Vox and Velvette.

It’s the opposite, Valentino has always been depicted next to Vox and Velvette as equal monsters that can be funny, charismatic and also care about the other vees despite being incredibly evil. 

For example, Valentino being sad that Vox is neglecting him? 

Velvette is also upset, she’s sad and annoyed about it too but unlike Valentino who’s a drama queen, Velvette directs her emotions towards the present plans/promising to make Vox pay for being a jerk later. 

That’s not the story woobifying Val in comparison to Velvette though, that’s how the two of them have different personalities reacting to the same basically situation that’s upsetting them. 

People complain about the story forcing us to sympathize with Val and how it’s woobifying him but don’t say anything about Velvette also being sad Vox is pushing them both away.

The other 2 examples, Valentino saving Vox and helping at the end of the finale is done with Velvette. However, people usually always single out Val when it’s complaining about the writing at the end.

But the ending is also the greatest proof that Val isn’t being treated as a separate monster because if Vox is a villain that’s meant to be liked, what does it mean when he is saved by a villain that’s apparently "only meant to be hated"?

I'll just put this here before people put words in my mouth: Valentino is not written to rooted for or liked, he’s written as a villain with funny or charming moments (and he should be capable of being charming... because people fall in love with the human side of monsters), same with Vox and Vel.

People can and will still like him (some people just like fictional villains) but they like him as a villain, he’s always been depicted as a villain (yes, even in the finale, he is still depicted as a villain, saving his equally villainous TV man).

It’s not the same as being written to be likeable as a hero.

At no point has he actually shown super redeemable traits, his best trait is always his care towards the other Vees, who are also vile people.

People assume everything Valentino does is to abuse or manipulate while not giving the same treatment towards Velvette and Vox.

For example, some people will see Vel and Vox being friendly as them being besties despite being evil, but those same people will say that Val isn’t really friends with Vox/Vel, he would abuse them if he was more powerful. Or say stuff like how Velvette kicking Vox off the cannon is her being concerned about Vox but Val ripping Vox’s head off is proof how he’s always an abuser.

The double standard also sometimes is done the opposite way where they say Vox and Vel do care about each other but don’t care about Val. That the other vees only tolerate Valentino for business reasons because the idea of their favorite character liking a rapist is uncomfortable… Even though we are shown them hanging out during their free time together and scenes like Vel comforting Val when he’s upset.

Sometimes it's implied by people that Velvette or Vox actually caring or feeling either platonic or romantic affection to Valentino would ruin their characters... but why would that be out of character or ruin their characters? All the vees have either been hinted or shown to care about each other.

Even if I go purely off s1, despite Valentino being annoying, Vox still goes to calm him down and while Vel is annoyed too, she's still there when we see them get together to watch the exterminations with popcorn in s1. They do this during their free time. Not to mention them dancing together and Vel recording with a smile.

I do not think people would put half as much effort into arguing how Vox only is friends with Velvette for business reasons than they do for Valentino. Also I just kinda find it funny how working with a sexual trafficker for business only is “better” in the eyes of some people.

Half the time I see the comments like this and I think “Wow, this person really is uncomfortable knowing they like a rape enabler and wants their relationship with a rapist not to exist so they can pretend that character has no involvement is sex trafficking and feel more comfortable liking the character”

Which I understand but like… It feels kinda futile.

People act like they are morally superior (or with better taste in writing) when they hate Valentino even when they love the other two Vees.

First off, this is fiction. A person liking superman doesn’t necessarily mean they are a better person. A person hating Valentino also doesn’t necessarily make them a better person or more supportive of victims. How many people have you met that liked the cutest sweetest character and ended up having the most vile personality irl?

Now let me just ask the question: Should Valentino be treated like a separate case from Vox and Vel? 

Should he be treated as an extra evil, complete next level monster in comparison to Vox and Velvette? Is that better writing?

I think writing like that would make people more comfortable but I don’t think it’s actually better because often times making Valentino the extra evil big bad doesn’t actually work with his themes and personality (he represents drug addiction, he’s hedonism not calculation)

It’s also so common to see people complaining about the story making us feel bad for Valentino and I turn around and see the same people praising rewrites for hazbin that have Valentino being abusive to the other vees so Vox and Velvette and now victims to his wrath.

So like, Val singing melodramatically about Vox neglecting him is too much but Vox and Velvette being sad about big bad Valentino hurting them is peak writing? I guess a rape drug producer having human emotions is fine but there is clear line that a rapist can’t be shown with human emotions?

Let me rephrase my original question: Should characters that are friends with a rapist, profit off the victims and their suffering, enable/support that rapist while protecting them, abuse and take consent away from other victims themselves, be treated like they are “different” from the rapist? Is it really less offensive or more respectful of victims?

My opinion? They may be a bit different, maybe they aren’t as sexual as Valentino… 

But they aren’t different enough. 

All the Vees are vile monsters. Don’t just see it as them being bystanders helplessly and doing nothing while Valentino does whatever he wants. They profit off it, they hand him victims, they watch, they protect Valentino over the victims. It’s not Valentino’s victims, they are victims of all the vees. They are not bystanders, if Valentino is punching people, Vox and Velvette are holding that person down while he does it.

I’ll even go harder on Vox because a lot of people act like Vox already has one foot in heaven and redemption is inevitable while they act like Valentino is 6ft buried already and his death is inevitable s3. Maybe he gets redeemed but that hasn’t happened yet and people should really ask themselves if they are able to love the character even if he stays a villain.

Because that man has cameras in Angel’s dressing room. He calls Angel a whore and more trouble than he’s worth when Val is the one abusing and pimping him out. He watches over Valentino’s image, sleeps with him, and worries that he hasn't eaten lunch too. And everything s2? That wasn’t Valentino making him do that, that was all for his own goals to conquer heaven. That was Vox when there were no eyes on him behind closed doors

For every theory of Vox helping get Angel out of his contract to redeem himself, try imagining Vox victim blaming Angel for getting Valentino mad and saying if he just stops being a dumb whore maybe Val won’t hit him. Because s3 hasn’t happened yet, are you really going to tell me that that scenario I just said is completely impossible?

So when these people are saying that Valentino depictions should always be scary/serious... why are not also arguing that Vox and Velvette shouldn’t have moments where they are charismatic/ funny/ or showing human moments for the sake of being more respectful or avoid woobifying them? For it to be “good” writing? 

Is it really about morality? Is it really “good” writing?

Ultimately, hazbin is a black comedy with larger than life characters. I won’t say the writing is fantastic but I prefer writing that is consistent and treats the Vees on the same equal ground.

Where they are all awful villains that have charismatic or funny moments because they represent both the worst and the enticing sides of the entertainment industry. Villains that can also care about each other because it is both a show about redemption but also because powerful people don't get away with their crimes alone. They have people covering and protecting them.

… than writing that treats Val as the true ultimate evil next to the other vees and acting like their crimes are so "different" and "separate" from his instead of them all sharing and profiting in the same company.

(Also, just in case people make assumptions, I do not believe in Valentino getting redeemed.

I believe in the idea of redemption/ anyone can be redeemed but I don't see redemption to heaven as the storyline for any of the Vees. They are monsters that belong in hell.

Personally I believe they will all be defeated in their own ways and lose a good amount of power/influence but will also go through character development that make them more secure in themselves (their own personal redemptions). Changes that also creates an overall better environment for all sinners in hell. For example, slightly better working conditions)

The fandom has a lot of performative actors:

It’s so easy to get upvotes for saying things about Valentino, about how morally depraved the writers or his fans are… But half the time I check their profiles and it’s a Vox fan. 

Here’s a quick example:

“This scene pisses me off so badly because the writers really expected us to feel sorry for a rapist sex trafficker suffering in love” with 5k likes on twitter about the Val solo in the finale.

Here’s another one:

“I don't know why some Vox fans empathize with that scum; besides, it's the most OOC scene of the entire show, I was disgusted by the obvious attempt to brainwash me in favor of a violent sexual aggressor like ewww NO, what kind of person are you if you fall for that?”

The people who made those posts? Both were Vox fans that like radiostatic…

Not getting into ship wars but I highly doubt they have the same complaints or be implying that the writers are outrageous awful people when talking about the bar scene with Vox. Even though Vox, who is also a sex trafficker, was also suffering in love and it was done in a way where you could feel bad about Vox despite all his crimes. 

Would these people agree if critics were saying that Vox shedding a tear in the finale was awful because it was trying to make us feel sorry for him despite being a sex trafficker and protecting/sleeping with a rapist? That fans are stupid for falling for such horrific brainwashing if they empathize (even if they don't condone his crimes)?

Sometimes a scene doesn't hit, sometimes you don't empathize with a character but those comments are focusing on "outrage" and "morality" that actively insults or implies bad things about real people/ fans, instead of opinion and preference

To give comparison, some Valentino fans actually do complain that the bar scene made Vox too soft (I don't agree) but they usually don't make their comments so accusing and attacking towards the writers or other fans.

It's usually something like "The scene makes Vox too naive and soft? It feels ooc, even if he is in love he's still a serial killer and an up and coming overlord". Focusing on opinion/preference + not accusing people that like soft Vox of being awful human beings over fiction

And again, it’s not a ship thing, I’ve seen solo Vox fans say very similar things that are either insulting or implying awful things about Valentino fans or the writers. It’s also not just a twitter thing, I’ve seen similar arguments or comments on reddit.

Genuinely, Vox is not nearly morally different enough from Valentino for people to be acting like this. "He may be redeemed s3" has not happened yet, you are currently on the same moral ground.

Sometimes it’s more subtle. For example:

“I just don’t understand what there’s to like about Valentino. Vox has good writing and interesting dynamics. Valentino is just a rapist”

It sounds like just an opinion right? Except, it’s kinda implying that Valentino fans shouldn’t like him or only like him for his crimes… Aka they are being rape apologists

Plus oftentimes, when Val fans explain what they like about Val (themes, dynamics etc ) it’s “Well that’s not really interesting/ that doesn’t count”. Why is a Vox fan implying that other fans are depraved for liking a fictional character? 

Here’s another one:

“I really hope Valentino dies but Viv likes him for some reason…”

Again it sounds normal, it’s not a big deal to want an awful villain to die… the problem is that the second part is usually implying that Viv likes Valentino because she’s a rape fetishist or something. 

Mind you, Viv has said that Vox is one of her favorites and Vox lives in s2 and that never seems to get people to imply she supports rape even though Vox is Val’s #1 enabler. 

I really love how people are all “Oh liking a fictional villain doesn’t mean you support their crimes” with Vox and then turn to Valentino “Except if you like this one!”.  Do you believe in the stuff you say or it is only when you like a character?

Sometimes it’s just annoying: 

For merch drops, there can be people just posting their plushies of Valentino and you have people going “it’s so easy to forget he’s a rapist when he’s a plushie I guess” or “I can’t believe they made merch of a rapist”

But the same people will be begging for solo merch of Vox or Velvette that doesn’t have Valentino. And you know these people would not make the same comments on merch posts of Vox or Velvette. 

If you are a fan of the show, why are you making comments like that when you also like a villain that’s his bf or his best friend?  You’re just being annoying ( and often hypocritical) to other fans in the fandom and implying that they are morally depraved for buying merch of a fictional character.

Though tbf, sometimes people are like "I only like x character or Y ship, I don't support hazbin hotel or viv at all" and act like that gives them full reign to act however they want to other hazbin fans. Those fans are basically antis that think their "superiority" for only liking the "good" parts of hazbin gives them the right to bully or imply awful things about fans who actually like the show.

This one isn’t nearly as relevant, but every once in a while you have people making posts about “oh what would Asmodeus do if he met Valentino” and it’s usually just baiting for people to say he would beat Val up… Which is like whatever, but I do love how people bring up how “Asedomous hates the love potion!”... because Velvette makes love potions and you never see posts on “What would Asmodeus do if he met Velvette?”

It’s all just so performative. I understand why there’s a difference but I am kinda just done with it.

Like you can argue that “Vox and velvette has better writing” … If it’s about writing then stop making it about morality and acting like you are morally superior. 

Performative Behavior:

… This is a little more serious because it’s not fiction based but I did want to add this somewhere: People really need to be careful about the users they follow and give platform to in this fanbase because a lot of people don’t care nearly as much as they pretend to. This was extremely obvious during the art merch situation a while back.

Especially on twitter, some people were so fast to repost hate against Viv, repost calling for a boycott and making rumors but when the artists themselves said Viv was their biggest supporter, that they didn’t want a boycott, and to stop spreading rumors… Suddenly no reposts on what the artist themselves were saying and a lot of these people left tweets that had misleading information up. These same people were making petitions to support the artists and support posts etc... The petitions were useful and all… but the overall behavior was fishy as fuck. 

Be on a look out for hypocrisy or performative behavior. It’s rampant in the hazbin fandom.

Conclusion:

I’m not asking anyone to like Valentino or stop hating him.

I completely understand why people treat him different from the other Vees.

I just really wanted to rant that the fake ass “concern” or “righteous rage” is kinda annoying because if these people really cared, they would have the same energy towards Vox and Velvette. Take off the high heels, get off your high horse that's really just a donkey.

Like hate him all you want but is it really necessary to act smug and be “I guess I’m not allowed to hate a rapist anymore” when you’re wording things in a subtle way that implies Valentino fans are morally inferior to you that ends up pisses them off.

If people would prefer certain writing ideas and storylines that's fine but keep the discussion based in fictional boundaries or preferences without calling/implying others are morally disgusting...

Or, if you insist on bringing morals into it, either be consistent and apply it to all the Vees or be willing to explain why you think a rape enabler/abuser should have sympathetic or humanizing scenes when you insist that Val shouldn't...

And the explanation should be more than just "It doesn't feel as real to me", "as long they aren't directly doing the crime it's fine", or "Vel and Vox have better writing so it's okay for them to have humanizing scenes", if you are willing to call other real people depraved over fiction.

I know by making this write up so long it can easily be dismissed as "lol you wrote so much to defend a rapist" but that's just kinda how I write (plus I am not defending Val). In general, explaining a more complicated argument usually takes more words and is harder than just being inflammatory/dismissing with moral superiority.

Rant over and I no longer care/am going back to drawing evil scenarios or funny shitposts.

This one is more Vox centric than what I normally do but the Vox subreddits have a lot of people who hate Val/staticmoth so I'm not too comfortable posting there. (Which it is totally fine to dislike btw, I just personally like staying in my own spaces)

I was kinda thinking about how involved Vox is with Val and Angel's storyline.

Like he has cameras in Angel's dressing room. He knows of all the abuse and chooses to protect and sleep with Val.

His abuse against Angel, the hypnotising, forcing Angel to reveal his past for the media... None of that actually been addressed yet but probably will next season. Like yeah, he's been defeated as the main villain for s2 but not as the secondary villain in Angel's storyline

The more I think about it... the more I feel like, while Valentino should get the main downfall... I feel like Vox should share some of that downfall as his partner in crime/ main enabler.

The scenario I came up for fun was the idea of Vox recovering his approval ratings enough and being completely ready to restart this climb to the top... Only for Valentino to fuck up like we know he will s3 and Vox being forced to make a choice that could wreck his approval rating and public image again.

I think it also ties into his "me, me, me" tendencies from s2 that ended up with him alienating himself from the others Vees and shows a bit of character growth while still keeping Vox as being an evil bastard.

I'm not really good at drawing so I hope the overall vibe or feeling gets through? I should probably mention that Val looks a lot more pitiful than he should in the comic because it's meant to be from Vox's pov. Like for everyone else, Val's downfall is caused by himself and he's the villain but to Vox that doesn't matter. It never did before, so why would it now?

Any thoughts on the scenario?

Design by: https://x.com/KStoooone/status/2075145711084241258

Val's outfit is hard to see because he's bending over/it's red but I like that he has his arms around both Vel and vox

https://x.com/senia\_soft/status/2049572783550562346

Took a bit of a break... but a quick possible s3 scenario that could be worth discussing

I was thinking about how Val was looking for a co-star for Angel s2 and how the plot may play out for s3.

One of the questions I always had was why wasn't Val performing as an actor himself anymore? Did Vox convince him not to by telling him he was "above" it? Did he stop doing it on his own etc?

I think it would be a good way to explore both the porn industry in hell (hell's hollywood) as well as any complications in both Val himself and his relationship with Angel. For example, Val returning to acting could give a chance to reveal his eating disorder (which people suspect he has/has been hinted at)

Also, I think it would a great trainwreck to watch of him trying to both be performing again and acting CEO. I think it would a mess for everyone involved and could be entertaining to watch

Love is blind~

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This is from Twitter: https://x.com/MarleneProart/status/2066435112900644877

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Val going blind also plays into some other themes like dependence since he makes his victims dependent on him like a drug.

​

He would be completely dependent on the other Vees if he went blind.

​

... Anyways, I'm the sort of villain fan that likes downfalls but dislikes revenge fantasy or death penalty so honestly, I think this is a "fun" scenario to consider.

Also please check the subreddit before commenting, this is the val cult

I mustered up an inch of willpower to draw (even though I have other stuff I am art blocked on)

Originally I had Val frowning in this comic but I thought it would be funnier if he was smiling lol.

I know a lot of people are thinking how depressed Vox is (and I do think a lot of things about him will be explored S3 including some darker moments) but honestly my first reaction to seeing the merch was going "this fucker" and "I hate him" (affectionately) when I saw that smile on Vox lol.

The comic is probably somewhat ooc but it's for fun.

They picked the evil option of including Angel with the Vees phew.

(Good thing I like evil)

On the other hand, Vox beat the head only allegations so there's that lol.

1) Who does the photograph on the desk belong to?

I think most people assume it's Valentino photo (I also do believe the photo is Val's) because it is his room but I've been curious about the upgrade of the desk from s1 to s2.

It's possible that the desk is Vox's desk in Val's room considering how he was going through the drawers there and the upgrade makes it clearly Vox's style in Val's room

However, it's also possible to still be Val's since again, it is his room and the s1 screens did have his logo on them.

2) Did Vox save Valentino from falling in the finale?

We see the cables string Val up and Vox also has a small video feed of Val in the bottom left when he sees his approval ratings fall.

I could also see it as just a coincidence though

I sometimes see people complaining that Val and Velvette didn't realize Alastor was trying to break the Vees apart season 2 or that they didn't help Vox enough during the events of s2 and how it undercuts their found family dynamic/they don't care but I disagree.

I don't think they know:

In my opinion, it's unlikely Val or Vel knew the full extent of Vox's rejection with Alastor. They know he has a weird obsession with wanting to kill him but probably not the full extent of how hurt he was, how he had a crush etc. So they are supportive of his whole rivalry thing, not realizing how obsessive Vox actually is about it/ the issues/insecurities that it stems from

Why would Vox tell them those details when he's so obsessed with his image and not being a failure? Why would he try to be vulnerable after the rejection, even if he cares for the other Vees, when he's still clinging to the idea that there are no friends in hell and relying on others for power makes you weak? 

You could argue that Vees should have created a situation where he could be vulnerable but like... they are super villains and likely have their own issues (I highly doubt val doesn't have fucked up views on both sex, love, family). In comparison, Charlie is trying her hardest to get Angel to open up and it's been (understandably) slow ass progress too.

I am not expecting nearly that much from Val or Vel when they probably don't know the full details and Vox himself probably doesn't even understand the full extent of his own insecurities. Especially when their relationships are not completely official and teeter between business partners and family.

It's not that vees don't care, it's that despite living and being close to each other, it's unlikely they have truly opened up to the others because they are all self-centered, prideful, villains and most importantly, they didn't need to.

They have all been at the top of their power for a while. It's only now that the status quo is changing and they are forced to self reflect and be placed in vulnerable situations. It's only now that things are unstable that their relationships bonds are actively proving to go beyond just business.

Would it be nice if Val and Vel held an intervention? Well they did in the end but they didn't think Vox would lose it either, they thought it was a phase and the lines at the end "you know me, I got a little carried away" imply this is a regular thing with Vox letting his ego get to him. The scene with Alastor was more about them being displeased with Vox's attitude towards them than them siding with Alastor. It doesn't feel like they have the context so it's just banter to them while Vox is acting more like a jerk than usual during another one of his ego trips.

Imo it's similar to how Vox deals with Val's tantrums, usually it's just cancelling a few meetings every few days to deal with it, you don't expect one day for the tantrum to end up with an attempt at mass suicide when the past ones were just annoying at worst.

Also... There's also the question of whether or not it would have worked because of how obsessed Vox was. Would he have listened to Vel/val? Or would Alastor just need to say "Oh I guess you can't keep your lackeys in line, look how they are questioning your judgement" and Vox would have ignored the vees? That if Val and Vel asked Vox what was wrong he would have told them his past? We also have to consider that we don't know Val/vel's stories either, they may also have their own issues that would prevent them from asking. Val in particular goes "He's just a man" which is... not a great indicator.

Not perfect found family

I think some people are also under the idea that because Viv says they are found family that they are starting the series as a perfect found family that will being perfectly supportive of each other while being evil.

And that when they are toxic or don't communicate, the story is failing to keep the found family dynamic or they don't actually care for each other.

When that doesn't seem to be the case?

Like yes, they do imo genuinely care about each other but Vees are more like a found family that haven't realized it yet or are in active denial about it.

They still have their own baggage to deal with  (Angel/Alastor obsessions etc) and are under development in their relationships/character but can hopefully learn to value and support each other better.

They will not be perfect but that doesn't mean they aren't found family.

Also in the end of the day they are evil. They probably aren't going to portray healthy relationships, instead they'll probably just be toxic in a way that is close enough to a healthy relationship because it is what works for them

I suspect similar stuff to happen s3 where, technically, it would be nice if Velvette and Vox worried about Val before his downfall moment and maybe could have prevented it, but like as long as they are around to save him when it matters at the end, I'll be fine.

Villains always learn the hard usually anyways

Also completely unrelated: drawing is hard and taking too long

The main question being what do you want to see for Val's endgame or overall arc?

Do you see him having an arc? Or just going through a downfall/being killed off?

My personal opinion has always been I want to see him go through a downfall losing Angel, losing power, money, reputation as well as going though his own mental crisis but I also want to see him stay alive and with the Vees and maybe figure out both his own mental state (Considering he likely has an eating disorder and other issues from representing the toxic side of the entertainment industry) along with his relationship with vox

The main arguments against the idea of this that Val doesn't deserve a happy ending with what he did to Angel and that him having a relationship with Vox would be insulting to victims.

However, I have never really agreed with that stuff because what no matter what happens people will say it is somehow insulting to victims. Like I have already heard it all, Valentino being hot is insulting to victims, or being funny is bad representation etc. Valentino can't be the perfect depiction of every toxic abuser, he already isn't. He's not an ugly guy, he's not an alpha male dudebro.

He's just his own character and his storyline probably isn't going to perfectly represent everyone's fantasy of watching an awful person die/tortured forever.

Because show is about redemption rather than punishment and revenge. Will Val get punished? Yeah, but I would want to see the punishment end in hope for a better future rather just be about eternal suffering all alone.

Angel's happiness is not dependent on Val being miserable forever or losing his relationships with the vees forever or never being loved by Vox or something.

Angel's happiness is his own redemption story with his friends and family. This doesn't mean I think Val will have a "happy ending", it just means that Val having one good thing left (his relationship with the vees) isn't somehow a blight on Angel's own story.

Yes, it would be fucked up for Val and Vox actually ended up in somewhat functional relationship because that's obviously not fair and he doesn't deserve it but redemption is inherently unfair.

Redemption doesn't care about victims.

Sir pentious never apologizes or makes amends to the people he watched die or their loved ones to be redeemed. Redemption isn't about forgiveness, it's about becoming better no matter what the past was. Personally, I don't think Val will go to heaven but I do think he can get at least a little better in hell. I believe any change is valuable.

I also don't see why splitting the vees permanently up is necessary either. Like yeah they enable each other to be evil but them caring about each other is also the only redeeming feature they all have and I don't think they'll get new redeeming features anytime soon.

It makes more sense for a show that values love and friendship to punish them by taking away the things wanted and gained from being evil (power money etc), than to punish them by taking the one redeeming feature and only relationships that they actually did correctly.

This is exactly how Vox was handled, he lost his approval rating but his bond with the other two vees is what ends up saving him. If Val does the right things to maintain an okay love relationship with vox, the idea of redemption is letting that happen even if he doesn't deserve it.

I want to see all the Vees change a bit to be better after their downfalls even if they all stay evil. I want to see this for all the villains at this point, including lute and alastor. For them to go through downfalls but come out changed for the better... even if it's still not that great.

Sidenote but Valentino fans redemption views are different:

I have noticed that my kind of mentality/view around redemption (redemption not caring about victims, vees having each other as their main redeeming feature, even change that stays in hell is okay etc) isn't uncommon around Val fans but is kind of uncommon for the general hazbin audience. Relevant twitter thread I recommend (https://x.com/AustaAfterAll/status/2057069435458822446)

Which both makes sense but is also ironic since we like the character that people believe cannot, should not, will not change or be redeemed. So the people who like the "worst" character believe in the idea of any redemption (even if it's not to heaven) for most of the evil characters while people who like nicer characters may not actually believe in redemption as much and actually hope that Charlie learns to lean into punitive justice.

The real question is, are we the crazy ones for having these views on redemption?

https://x.com/parade\_prize/status/2055091200043180315

These are probably limited to Japan merch that you will be able to find in arcades.

Look at him though. There are no thoughts in those evil eyes.

(Also featured, a certain flat faced prince)

I've noticed I check the bottom row first when I look at tier lists and find it kinda funny.

It reminds me of when I liked playing a really non meta character in a video game. Every tier list was a "he's F tier isn't he?"