u/Oratorario

When I think about it, AI is an equivalent of the printing press in terms of impact.

---

Firstly, numerous posts around AI complained about the fact it made Art too much accessible.

In fact, it goes in the same historical direction allowing more people to communicate their thoughts on a large scale and across time.

We can also adress the fact that it's a tool that can be used for freedom denouncing problems, serving causes and spread awareness.

The powerfull and the lobbyists already had millions to invest in propaganda. Howewer, now everyone has tools to create pieces of arts and express themselves quite easily.

(See point 3 for independance of the models).

And it's the free choice of everyone to choose what tools they want.

I mean there are even anti AI pictures made by AI.

Going back to the historical comparison to Gutemberg, in the end, more books helped, right ?

And reddit is a place with the same design intent in mind, allowing the communication to reach farther and faster. Howewer, we're all kinda comfortable using it.

---

Secondly, as a point of comparison, you don't say people advance the interests of the corporations when you buy books especially those shown as indie except they mostly go through that industry top to produce it.

Same for merchandising.

It is still its own fabrication line with technology involved.

Of course, you can advance that AI may have its own problems as an industry. Let's see that further in the next point.

---

Thirdly, like the fact there are independant publisher and librarians, local models will allow to have more rooms for freedom, style and expression while also trained on less problematic datasets.

They're also more environmental friendly. In fact, some AI models already consume way less ressources than other.

---

All of this to say that AI is but a tool. It's like fire. You can use it to cook or to set houses on fire. Yet no one boycot fire.

---

Fourth point,

Of course, you can criticize the fact that AI do things instead of you. However, depending on the level of interaction, use and artistic intent, the user can evolve in a spectrum beetween being producer and artist.

And to add even more to it, Google maps.

You can use it instead of relying on navigation and no one really complain about that.

Howewer, same way of doing things instead of you which is here looking at a map, orientation and navigation.

And the world did survive internet, the delivery, the website, having easier access to informations and easier way to make yourself known spreading your own art, right ?

So, why does it matter now so much that a new tool allow one to do something they did by themselves ?

Look at today, even with these tools, people are responsible and intelligent enough to handle themselves.

Of course, there are new ways to be taught and new dangers to avoid, but as a species, we already handled more.

And this will bring, of course, a lot of debates and methods and regulations to be discussed about.

---

As a an addenum and to conclude on the term, the expression AI bros that refer as tech bros which refer to corporatists make little to no sense.

It would make as little sense to call other pencil sis, for example, as it would only put people in boxes.

Again, everyone is free of choosing to use and engage in it or not.

---

The picture is a Pixel Art of mine, if you want to know.

While I was working on my own sketches, an idea came up to my mind,

if AI is considered to be a new medium and can bring something to Art on the table, why not make a melting pot ?

I mean, photography brought composition and reference pictures for Artist, Film brought movements like travelling, then effects like transitions, video games brought the concept of interface, choices.

And this reflect on the drawn Art too, with fake games painted by japanese artists for example (yess the school picture with monsters and HUD).

What AI could bring on the table is the ability to play with soft and dynamic character archetypes and much deeper interactive Art.

As it is now, I think its current abilities are heavily underused.

So, if AI is art, wouldn't it feed back in the ecosystem like any other mediums and deepen it making the whole ensemble greater than the sum of their parts ?

So, this make us return back to our point, wouldn't it be a great idea to create a melting pot on Reddit where Art is posted indiscriminately regardless of it being AI, traditionnal or hybrid ?

Would this be a more creative place ?

What do you think ?

Can it work or not ?

Wouldn't it settle the point about AI being Art or not definitely ?

And this post comes from an aspiring artist dwelling in the traditionnal arcanes of the pen who had just a bit of intellectual curiosity.

And I lean toward neutral with a bit of scepticism on some parts of the subject, if you want to know.

In every stories, there are these characters you can relate to, and I think this is one of the reasons why our ship is popular (second after Guitarspear) asides from both of their characters perfectly balancing out each other.

Indeed, despite being angels, both deal with very human topics especially in S2.

As an pseudo-immortal exorcist, Lute had to experience grief and sorrow for the first time.

And Emily had to deal with the mistakes of Sera and realizing the ways of heaven don't work everywhere.

And to stay back on this topic, to be honest, sometimes, I do wonder how much environment had to do with the directions they are taking in life.

Indeed, Lute can be interpreted as a character that hide her softness with her spite due to being molded by a rather unforgiving, morally simple and biased environment.

While Emily can be interpreted as a character, which despite a grand softness and kindness, has an heroic streak that was never fully developped as it wasn't needed in her own environment.

Both girls find what they lack in the other has, in a sense. So close yet so far at the same time.

And were their roles and upbringing were switched, would their characters be changed in the same ways or would a part of them had remained the same ?

Well, maybe I am interpreting too much here, but this is what I see with my own perceptions and biases.

To get back to the topic, here are the questions:

- Of Emily or Lute, which one do you relate to the most ?

- What made you relate ?

Firstly, this picture is one I made using a drawing book as reference. I personally added extra fluff and the shadows who weren't present on the basic examples.

(Took the picture from 2 angles to show it's fully handrawn)

---

Secondly, and what I want to talk about is the fact my personal experience going extremely close to AI psychosis/dependency had an impact.

It severely skewed my perspective on AI and made me unable to see the good it brings.

But thanksfully due to this sub, I managed to shed my biases and complexes and I am gratefull for that.

But you already know the story, right.

Now, though I won't touch AI as this remain my own personal choice, I do think that AI can be art, that people shouldn't get harassed over it and what we truly need to be carefull is not to have people get screwed over that.

Indeed, Technological progress doesn't always mean Social one, as historically people had always strived to earn their rights.

Being cautious but hopeful is my advice as we shouldn't forget the good in the pursuit of the great.

And the fact, we should always remember to stay Pro humans regardless of our opinions.

---

Thirdly, I don't think I will participate much more in this subreddit as many new projects await me.

As a sign of departure, I'll gladly ask people to write here what is the good that is brought to them wether it comes from AI or more traditionnal activities.

---

I'll launch myself first.

I genuinely enjoy reading, writing and drawing. It fullfill me.

Writing, criticizing and reading made me a better person by allowing me to put myself in the shoes of my characters, to connect, by allowing me to imagine, to think, to research, to deepen my own mind and empathy.

What I like in drawing even if I only consider myself as an aspiring artist is the fact it made me better as observing, drawing unexpected parrallels like comparing the sound of cars of cars in the streets to the waves of the ocean, to read better people as I see better the micro expressions, to visualize better, to be more fluid in the movements of my arms.

---

Again, tell me the good you like in creating be it AI or not. Tell me what make you a better person.

Farewell, Oratorio.

I already concluded long ago that debating if AI is art or not is completely moot.

What I think should be fought instead here is the battle for our own social rights as there are some serious cases of abuses and people getting screwed over (think deepfakes, think Jobs issues, AI psychosis, Mass proaganda etc...)

The end goal should always be to get better lives in the end and getting so much divided that we forget this essential truth will make us preys to those misusing this very tool for greed and control.

As for me, I don't think I would use AI either as I like doing things the hard way and bulking up in these skills.

However these are my personal choices and if others use AI, I won't say much.

By the way, I think it's a pity excluding people from certain spaces that would have helped them learn traditionnal skills. (yes, some people do want to get the drawing and the writing skills without relying more on AI and get kicked out due to their history.)

To center back on the subject of the art, on my own, I would say I don't know much for sure. I didn't have any AI works resonated with me yet.

This is the purpose of this post.

Show me your best, show me what you call beautifull, show me something that carry weight and meaning, even if it was generated.

I'd like to make my mind on this very topic.

I think you already heard that sentence many times by now:

"AI art isn't AI"

I mean, some already noticed that but, it doesn't logically make sense.

It's litterally its own antithesis.

Either you say "AI is art" or "AI isn't art".

The end goal here is regardless of methods, changes we make, tools we use, to achieve better living conditions, better life and a better society in the end.

How course, we could argue that better is a term that can resonate differently with each one of us.

But, at last it's truly about avoiding the worst and striving for the best. And that's a core each one of us has.

I mean, I arrived in this subreddit to confront my viewpoint and well this really worked.

Let's recap my mental journey here.

Before acessing Reddit, I started out as a neutral person.

Being extremely curious, I even read about how the technology worked. I even tried it.

But, and this my when path started, I had problems with AI. It was only due to luck and me snapping out that I barely avoided fully diving into AI psychosis and dependency.

And this was a downright terrifying experience especially for me who never experienced addiction before.

Then, I witnessed and read about many things. And this really made me concerned.

The problems were various and serious:

- The environmental impact at first (granted I did learn later there were very different ways to handle that)

- The copyright issue (I also consider scraping and selling CG models as problematic too)

- The mental offloading problem (some studies adressed the fact that delegating too much tasks to AI might cause a cognitive decline).

- The fact it is used as a tool and pretext to push back worker rights.

As something I consider downright predatory, my main goal was to call out for a more ethical use and regulation of this tool(like labelling).

Hence why I became a full anti when I considered I fully sorted out my own mind and why I didn’t support AI generated works at all.

Then I went to this subreddit and I saw other points.

It baffled me at first, that some people called this Art but I quickly realized that debating about something being Art or not is a moot and sterile point.

Before, I even advanced the point that it was mostly about how cognition shaped the art and that in term of cognitive tasks it was fundamentally different.

I no longer use that one.

So, now I decided that I should focus on what truly mattered to me which is not supporting the predatory system.

However, It bugged me once. If I can get in the wrong once, how many parts did I missed here ?

Thus, I pushed for more discussions. It was even what the post about definitions was about.

With each steps, I also learned of the problems on the other side. And I don't really condone the fact of bullying people as well as violence either.

Indeed, I do listen and I care about people too.

Then, lastly I did my own post because I read about people adressing the fact that people basically wrote the fact that they woud never have been creative without AI.

And the message I wanted to come across to to was that they should be valid with or without AI. But, when I wrote it, 2 things came back to me.

The first one is that the way I wrote my message in hindsight came as patronizing and condescending akin to overly zealot religious message.

It's crazy that even without the initial and conscious intent to hurt, I perpetrated the cycle because I was really stuck in my own mindset and biases.

And I genuinely thought I was helping people.

Secondly, AI does help disabled people like the ones who has ADHD.

Even if I do remain pro regulation, I think these all are valid points.

All to say that this isn't fully a matter of sides, It's mostly about how you handle yourself too regardless of the group where you are.

And frankly, right now, it's one big mess in my head as I have both sets of thoughts active at the same time.

So, what are your advices here ?

So, here is my analysis about this whole situation.

The devs behind and the community frankly made their point and have been disrespected a lot about their own choices.

The thing here, is that by bodly announcing they don't support AI at all and that they don't want any generated picture at all again, it had one big deadly flaw.

They have no legal grounds to stand upon. I can also say that Fanfiction can be technically considered to be in the same grey area according to the law.

Definitely and factually, you can't control the fact people generate pictures.

So, what now ?

I think a better strategic move is to focus on what can be controlled and no longer give any ammos to trolls.

And this move would be to officially support manmade fanarts while ignoring AI ones.

If enough events like that are organized and enough AI is ignored this would cut the grass to them and this would allow the developpers to be shown support.

What I mean here is that everyone should have at least the option to opt in and out of AI in any softwares or internet services.

Both Anti and Pros are concerned here.

Because, I think that akin to an Hollywood syndrome, this build up frustration and make people tense.

And in a sense, it ressembles internet before the dot bubble crashed. It's an unwise use of a new technology in order to reassure the shareholders.

And for what, it pisses off the Antis, It waste ressources and when a pro go to post an AI picture, the frustration becomes so high, it can lead to very bad behavior whereas a simple yes or no would have sufficed here.

All of this to say that the simple option to opt out would make the debate space saner and less tense which would benefit everyone and lead to less dramas and harassment.

Please, tell me what is your opinion here ?

What I mean here is that most things exist on a spectrum:

And as such, dividing beetween Pro, Anti and Neutral is extremely reductive because it's a spectrum of traits for each possible individuals and groups.

The fact of calling AI art or not is one of such example.

Let's try to make something akin to a scale to add back some simplicity and allow somewhat the debate to be held as a way to enter a much more complex world.

Here is the scale with the same question, at wich point do you qualify it as Art ?

1-Completely generated picture and it's a bot that wrote the prompt at each steps.

2-A human made the prompt and didn't edit nor regenerate nor reprompted the picture.

3-someone made the prompt, regenerated it multiples times until they got it right

4-same as 3, but there were some manual edits on the picture.

5-same as 4, but the number of edits are much more present to the point it's really different from the unedited picture.

6-It's a picture who was a very basic first manmade draft that was heavily edited by AI to make it finished.

7-It's a picture that was originally made by humans then edited by AI for small details, finitions

8-Its a picture made on a computer without AI

9-It's hand drawn

Of course, you're free to comment on thee and do other scales suggestions.

I hope this spark some constructive conversations.

As again here is the result of the discord poll.

Feel free to join and participate here.

Here is the link for the Artist:

https://fixupx.com/5n2kUmjf8JCwC7l/status/1990117418484826138