u/Potential_Analyst371

What counts as success in reactive dog rehab? This post describes facts in an actual case, but I won't include names.

A dog is fear reactive, barking at all sorts of things in the environment. She is clearly under-socialized and shows fear responses to various stimuli, including people at a distance, dogs, cars, stationary objects in the environment.

She is afraid of unknown people, but is amenable to meeting new people and, once she knows them, shows trust and friendliness.

The dog is sent to an e-collar board and train. Video taken during the early weeks reveal that she demonstrates trust in the trainer. She is afraid of all sorts of things in the environment, but shows zero fear or appeasement behaviors towards the trainer she just recently met.

When she is afraid of other things, she has no concern about the trainer being directly behind her. She is not concerned about his location at all. Even when he runs directly towards her in the video, she shows no fear. She demonstrates absolutely no appeasement behaviors toward the trainer in the early weeks of the program.

This all changes dramatically after he first punishes her reactive behavior with the e-collar. For several weeks we can see that she avoids him if possible, is fearful of him. only relaxes when she is allowed to move away from him.

The reactivity stops. The dog is obedient.

Yet, the owner reports that the dog now very often shows appeasement behaviors at home, such as cowering.

Is this a successful rehab?

Regarding the new rule:

You can't make a post calling the mod's favorite trainer abusive.

But it's fine for the mod to call Denise Fenzi abusive and say she killed her dog.

Didn't take long, Swearwoofs. I see you are considering restricting "science" also.

May as well all go back to Miss L's.

Are you going to delete this one, too?

EDIT" This post is about censorship in a sub that was created for the purpose of uncensored free exchange of ideas.

It's not about the relative merits of attacking either Dylan Jones or Denise Fenzi as an animal abuser. It's about the freedom to express your own ideas about each.

EDIT 2: The topic is censorship. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks about Denise Fenzi OR Dylan Jones if we are not able to express those views due to mod censorship. If you just make a comment about Fenzi or Dylan, your reading comprehension is sub-par.

The topic is the mod, and thus the entire sub, protecting Dylan Jones by removing posts critical him, while allowing all kinds of posts calling FF trainers animal abusers and killers.

Edit 3: I am not the one who posted saying Dylan Jones is an animal abuser. I am aware that a post was removed.

For me, the #1 is about puppy socialization It is very common all over reddit to say that puppies don't need to actually interact with new people or dogs. They just need "exposure" to things from a distance to teach "neutrality." This ends up being okay for some puppies. Maybe they were well socialized with the breeder and already love people. Maybe they are from a very friendly breed, have an easygoing personality, are naturally pro-social.

Maybe they grow up afraid of people but never reactive. I think that's sad, but a lot of people maybe don't care as long as there are no behavioral problems

Fearful dogs are much more likely to become reactive, though. For many of these sweet, scared dogs, the owner may end up sending them to one of the many e-collar camps using aversive methods to stop the reactivity, thereby just scaring the dog more. Fearful dogs can be easily rehabbed without painful methods, but many owners don't know this. Other owners maybe struggle for years without getting competent help for their dogs.

Adequate socialization can prevent problems like this.

For bold puppies, puppies of protective, guardian, suspicious type breeds, growing up afraid of people is even worse. They can become aggressive, not want to allow visitors in the home, be difficult at the vet and maybe impossible to walk.

Adequate socialization can prevent so many problems. Be sure your puppy actually meets, interacts with, and plays with many new people in the first few weeks and months home. "Frustrated Greeter" behavior can easily prevented by teaching polite greetings to young puppies.

An Honorable Mention goes to the very common idea on some parts of reddit that puppy "zoomie' behavior is pathological. Users frequently say that any time a puppy is running around and trying to bite you, they must be "overtired' or "over stimulated" and should be put in a crate for an "enforced nap" immediately.

Zoomie behavior is normal and developmentally appropriate for puppies, and many other baby animals. They need to play this way, they need to practice playing and biting, that's what puppies do. Putting energetic puppies in crates whenever they get zoomies is just sad.

Don't do it. Run around and play with your puppy. You puppy needs to play, it will improve your relationship, and it's so much fun!

Both are necessary, of course. Vets often advise puppy owners to keep puppy out of public areas until the vaccination series is complete at 16-18 weeks of age. However, at that point, puppies are beyond what is called the "prime socialization window" which basically says that socialization is more effective more quickly when puppies are under about 12-14 weeks of age. Older puppies and adult dogs can be socialized, of course, but it can be more difficult and take much longer, and results may be not be equivalent.

Trainers and even large associations related to veterinary behavior advise that more dogs die from preventable behavior problems due to lack of socialization than die from parvo and socialization needs to happen before shots are complete.

What's the right balance?

https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Puppy-Socialization-Position-Statement-FINAL.pdf

Three sessions, tops. You need to see some improvement, even it if is just a tiny bit.

I don't care if they are using thresholds or punishment or whatever else.

It simply does not take many months or years to improve the reactive behavior. Yes, it may take months or more to change the underlying feelings but you don't need a trainer for that

If you are working with a FF trainer, they should be able to show you how to work with thresholds and DS/CC in a way that has the dog NOT REACTING during training or everyday life if you follow instructions. If they can't get the dog to stop reacting, they are a bad trainer/have an ineffective training plan. Get someone else. Do not stick with with a bad trainer for months of even years if your dog is not improving.

If you are working with a balanced trainer, well, for fear reactive dogs I don't recommend that, but don't do board and train where they can really make your dog's fear worse even if they resolve the behavior. I would strongly advise you stick with private lessons so you can see what they do to your dog. Don't let them be too harsh or scare your dog. The dog should like the trainer and want to work with them. If your dog displays cowering or fear towards the trainer, get someone else

FF or balanced can both work for reactive dogs, but bad trainers in either camp can really mess up your dog.

Bad FF trainers just typically can never solve the behavior problem or even make it worse.

Bad balanced trainers can traumatize your dog and, even if the reactive behavior is gone, the fear is much worse and this can make an actual bite more likely even if the dog was never actually aggressive before.

Either type of trainer should be able to stop the actual reactive behavior quickly, whether or not that includes management and thresholds.

Either should then work on the underlying causes of the reactivity. Some balanced trainers skip this part.

Either should have the dog able to walk and behave in regular public spaces in about 8 weeks for most dogs, though dogs with really extreme fear might take longer. Maybe a few months, with continuous improvement. Not years. Never years.

One more article about an infant being killed by the family dog. What do you think? When should owners be held criminally responsible for a death or serious injury caused by their dog?

"HUNTINGTON COUNTY, Ind. (Gray News) - A 7-day-old Indiana boy died last year after being attacked by a dog named Chomp. Now, several of the baby’s family members are facing charges in his death.

Six people are facing charges after 7-day-old day old Jason A. Weaver was mauled to death by a family dog named Chomp on Sept. 4, 2025. . . .Family members described Chomp as being gentle with Jason, saying he would rock the baby’s bouncer and “love” on him, court documents show. But they also said he was a jealous dog who was often aggressive toward other animals and had bitten people before."

Described as a husky pit bull mix.

Browsing reddit indicates that many people have difficulty teaching their puppies to settle outside the crate.

Schedules for crate naps are common and can be great for house training. However, in my own training I have seen a strong correlation between puppies who spend long hours in the crate, and puppies who are absolute maniacs the whole time they are free.

When I have had a new client complaining of puppy over arousal or destructive behavior. often the first thing I do it decrease crate time and increase very active play time. This usually goes a long way toward resolving the issues.

Puppies also need to learn how to settle and relax outside the crate, and also in public. It's better to help your 15 lb pup learn how to settle than to have a 90 lb adolescent who is bouncing off the walls every time he is released from the crate.

So, what are your best strategies for helping puppies learn to settle outside the crate?

Just like the title says. There are plenty of fantastic balanced trainers. There are also far too many people trying to use what they think are balanced methods and failing miserably.

What are the signs to look for in a good balanced trainer?

What are some indications that the trainer's or owner's attempts at balanced training are ineffective?

Of course this is also true for FF trainers but for this conversation, let's focus on balanced methods.

EDIT: I am not talking about b mod for serious cases, here. Just regular, everyday dog training from trainers and also just owners trying to implement the methods.

Just like the title says. There are plenty of fantastic FF trainers. There are also far too many people trying to use what they think are FF methods and failing miserably.

What are the signs to look for in a good FF trainer?

What are some indications that the trainer's or owner's attempts at FF training are ineffective?

Of course this is also true for balanced trainers but for this conversation, let's focus on FF methods.

EDIT: I am not talking about b mod for serious cases, here. Just regular, everyday dog training from trainers and also just owners trying to implement the methods.

What do you think is the best way to handle early aggressive displays by puppies or adult dogs?

I always start with NILF

https://www.mygracevet.com/downloads/nothing-in-life-is-free.pdf

Dr. Karen Overall, a veterinary behaviorist, has a very similar program she calls "Deference Protocol."

https://www.karenoverall.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Protocol-for-deference_Overall.pdf

Both are positive reinforcement, non-confrontational (so owner can safely implement on their own) programs. They teach dogs how to get what they want in ways that are not aggressive.

What do you think are the best early interventions for aggressive dogs?

I think it's crap trainers, hands down.

I don't care if you're FF, LIMA, or other balanced. If you are not good at training dogs, find a mentor or find another job.

I just saw another, "My sweet frustrated greeter puppy is only getting worse after months of training, should I use an e-collar" post over on open dog

I wish we had actual skill based practical tests and licensing requirements for dog trainers, at least for anything other than simple obedience or puppy classes.

Unskilled trainers hurt dogs and their families.

What do you think are the biggest problems in the dog training industry today?

Positive punishment (+P) has been widely used to decrease unwanted behaviors in dogs. I have not researched the issue, but I would guess it has been the most common method used historically to address unwanted behaviors.

We know +P is adding something to decrease a behavior.

Can it reliably make an aggressive dog safe in all environments, with all people and dogs, for the rest of that dog's life?

Bonus points if you can cite to research, or give specific examples of training techniques.

If yes, why have dogs always faced euthanasia for intractable aggression? If +P could reliably "fix" this issue, why haven't trainers come up with clear methods for doing this in all these hundreds of years? Though FF training has become popular over the last maybe 30-40 years, punishment based methods were widely used previously without "solving" the problem.

If you believe +P cannot reliably and permanently change aggressive behavior, why do you think that is? What are alternate methods you believe are more successful?

*For the purposes of this discussion, let's not consider fear-based aggression. Consider aggression like owner directed aggression, territorial aggression, resource guarding, dog aggression, etc.

Let's talk relationship based dog training. We talk a lot about methods such as FF or balanced. Whichever flavor one chooses, the results are much better if the relationship between dog and owner is solid and appropriate.

As an owner, what do you want from your relationship with your dog? What aspects make it easier or more difficult to train the dog and get good behavior? How have dog trainers approached the relationship aspect?

For trainers, how important is the relationship between dog and humans in your training assessment, relative to your focus on specific behavior problems or wanted commands? Do you address relationship specifically? How do you form your own relationship with the dog to be trained?

EDIT: It seems that people are generally not understanding what I am talking about, so I want to be more cllear.

If there is a relationship where the dog naturally and habitually looks to the owner for guidance about how to behave, the owner and dog generally do not need professional help to address most behavior problems

So, when a dog or puppy presents with unwanted behaviors, (rather then just for obedience or specific skill training) then usually the fundamental problem is that the dog doesn't listen to the owner/doesn't sort of habitually try to do as the owner requests.

As a trainer, one can either just address the specific unwanted behavior, or address the problems in the relationship itself that lead to the dog ignoring the owner or being unwilling to listen along with the specific unwanted behavior.

Obviously this is an over-simplification and also, dogs misbehave when the owner is not present.

Dog trainers should understand what I am talking about here, though.

Let's skip the obvious hypothetical or extreme outlier situations.Yes, we'll hurt a dog to save its life or the life of a baby, etc., etc.

In general,, though, is it ethical to use pain to control your dog's behavior when when the same control can be achieved without pain?

If so, why is okay to needlessly hurt dogs? Human convenience? Lack of knowledge in effective training techniques? Dogs are "here to serve humans?"

Remember, I am talking about unnecessary pain, when a training goal can be achieved with no pain to the dog,

If you think this is okay, is it also okay to hurt children? Kittens? Bunnies? If not, why are dogs different? Why are dogs less worthy of protection from pain?

EDIT: For all the people down voting the post, do you think the question should not even be asked, or what?

A lot of LIMA or force free leaning trainers seem to blame the owners for choosing balanced training methods. Is this fair or reasonable? Let's look at a couple of common examples.

A family has a 6 month old doodle puppy - cute as a button and sweet as could be. They want to get some training in and call a FF trainer. Trainer shows up with a bag of treats, teaching puppy sit and down and place. Throws in fetch for the kids and everybody is happy.

The family had a great experience They will likely use FF trainers in the future.

How about another example, though. Young gal just out of college gets her first puppy. She chooses a Rottweiler because she had one as a kid. She does her research and gets the pup from a well-established breeder with a great reputation and some titles.

When this puppy is 6 months old, he starts up with some very frightening reactive behavior. He is barking and lunging at people on walks. He looks very aggressive. The owner is worried he will bite someone, and she is having a hard time even controlling him.

What happens now? Maybe she heads to reddit reactive dogs first thing and spends 3 hours reading some really devastating stories. She reads about several dogs just in the last few days who were euthanized for reactive behavior. She's starting to feel a little panicky.

Next day she gets a FF trainer out, but unfortunately this trainer is totally unskilled. The trainer has no education, just basically watched a bunch of Zak George videos and decided to hang out her shingle. She tells this worried dog owner that her dog is a "genetic mess" and that the behavior is "genetic aggression." She recommends getting some meds for the dog, and then says it might be "years or never" before the behavior is resolved.

She never gets within 10 feet of the pup.

Now what? Our owner loves her dog, and is not willing to give up on him. She gets on the phone and calls a whole bunch of local trainers.

Finally, one woman says, "Your puppy sounds like a normal, adolescent Rottie. I can get that behavior resolved for you in 6-8 weeks. I'll throw in a rock solid off-leash recall, and in 2 months you'll be letting your dog run free in the woods without a care in the world,"

There is just no world in which what this owner understood to be the FF option is better.

It's not the owner's fault. If you are all over reddit blaming owners for choosing balanced trainers who actually helped their dogs, maybe have a little think about whose fault it really is that these owners can't get reliable help from the FF trainers in their communities.

The problem is not loving owners trying to help their dogs in the best way they can find.

The real problem is that so many FF trainers are taking on cases they just don't have the skills to resolve. These trainers are causing a lot of people to believe FF is ineffective, and skilled FF trainers are being hurt by association.

If one wants to call themselves a dog trainer, here's the #1 rule: You have to be able to train the damn dog.

Don't make excuses. Don't blame genetics. Don't recommend meds. Don't say it'll take a year.

If you are not confident that you can train the dog, you need to refer out until you gain more experience Stop blaming the owners who just want what's best for their dog.

What is a reasonable amount of time to expect an owner to pay for professional training? At $200 an hour once per week, the owner would be looking at 5K for 6 months of training.

Is this reasonable? If an owner comes in with a reactive dog and is told it may take 6 months to a year, or longer, to train the dog (5-10K), might the owner just give up and drop that dog at the shelter?

We can look at what we believe are "ideal" training methods, I guess, but if those methods end up with the dog being dropped at the shelter, that's not doing anybody any good, is it?

Do trainers have an obligation to try to get resolution (or at least significant improvement) in the presenting complaint within around 6-8 weeks?

We have huge numbers of homeless dogs in the United States. For those in countries without this issue, why do you think your country has been so successful? Was there a homeless dog problem in the past? If so, how was the problem addressed?

For those familiar with US style animal shelters and rescues, how can we improve adoption success? Medical issues are probably mostly a resource allocation problem, so let's focus more on factors that can be modified without requiring an increase in operating budget.

What would be most beneficial in finding homes for these dogs, and then keeping them in the new homes?