u/SatisfiedUnsatisfied

Tomodachi Game got the most votes for being low tier in normal scaling and mid tier in pure methodology.

Tomodachi Game: 13 + 4 x 1.5 = 19 votes

Weak Hero: 5 + 2 x 1.5 = 8 votes

Doctor Stone: 6 + 1 x 1.5 = 7.5 votes

Death Note: 6 + 1 x 1.5 = 7.5 votes

Ghost Story Club and Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint: 5 + 1 x 1.5 = 6.5 votes

Liar Game: 1 + 2 x 1.5 = 4 votes

Monster: 2 + 1 x 1.5 = 3.5 votes

Some of these votes were genuine trolls which someone admitted to... 💀

Please be serious.

Pure Methodology Categories (examples):

Methodological Complexity (highest importance), Rigour Maintenance Relative to Complexity (very high importance), Strategic Creativity (high importance), Insightfulness (important), Theory of Mind (important).

Normal Scaling is "how smart the character is story-wise."

Normal Scaling and Pure Methodology are basically OPPOSITES. One scales the intelligence of the characters story-wise, and the other evaluates the explicit methods of the characters' feats from a perspective detached from the story (non-diegetically).

Thinking of it another way, Normal Scaling is a narrative evaluation and Pure Methodology is a game-theoretical evaluation.

Tiers from lowest to highest: Low, Mid, High, Very High, Extreme, Top.

Voting Rules:

Total votes = Highest upvote count + (( total comment count ) multiplied by 1.5)

Vote for a SERIES rather than a character.

If there is a draw, I might just put 2 series in 1 box or use a tie breaker.

Each spot will have around 1 day of voting time.

It is possible to vote for a series that has already been placed if you replace the previous placement with another more suitable series.

Current Vote: Which series is low tier in Normal Scaling but high tier in Pure Methodology?

This is one of my favorite feats from Fang Yuan.

1: Fang Yuan chose to sell blackmail material against his own clan to a merchant named Jia Jin Sheng (due to Jia Jin Sheng's weakness and manipulability). This was also a planned setup for his future scheme of infiltrating the Jia family's arranged competition.

2: However, he got unlucky that at the exact moment he took Jia Jin Sheng to the cave where the blackmail material was present, it was revealed to be a high quality inheritance.

3: The inheritance was of high enough quality that Jia Jin Sheng would murder Fang Yuan for it, so Fang Yuan chose to decisively kill him first. This renders the pawn Jia Jin Sheng useless as a means of gaining access to the family's competition, which is why Fang Yuan thought it pitiful that Jia Jin Sheng had to die, but the inheritance was more valuable, so killing him was worth it.

4: After cleaning up the murder scene, Fang Yuan returned to the village and refrained from revisiting the cave, ignoring the inheritance temporarily to prevent suspicion (this would end up being around 1 month of cautiously refraining).

5: There were valuable gu worms present in Jia Jin Sheng's aperture, but he destroyed them to prevent any tracking links to the body.

6: Fortunately a heavy downpour swept away the smell of blood and helped clean up traces. This also delayed the return of the merchant caravan that Jia Jin Sheng was a part of. However, this lucky event was not actually completely necessary for the misdirection to succeed.

7: It was inevitable that they would return to investigate, since the leader of the caravan (Jia Fu) was entrusted with the safety of his brother Jia Jin Sheng as a test of his character, which would determine the share of inheritance that he receives.

8: To prepare for this investigation, Fang Yuan needed to set up a witness for himself. The witness he chose as most suitable was the academy elder, since he had the resources to investigate Fang Yuan, the factional neutrality to not refrain from speaking up as a witness for Fang Yuan (for some of the elders, speaking up may risk compromising political benefits relative to the other factions), and also the ideal conditions needed for Fang Yuan to practically put his setup into effect.

9: During the interim period of preparing for the upcoming investigation, Fang Yuan undergoes 33 consecutive battles against his classmates and forcefully control his breathing, expression, and posture, to intimidate his classmates into submitting to his weekly extortions. He even acts rebellious and angry against the martial arts instructor, which has the purpose of reinforcing his image to the students, while also attracting the attention of the academy elder he wants to set up as a witness.

10: In order for the elder to actively defend Fang Yuan, he needed to show his value to the clan and not just come off a harmful weed that needs to be cut off at the roots, so he showed his emotional state by acting rebellious against the martial instructor, and also by blowing up an upcoming issue which I'll explain later. This showcasing of vulnerability implies that he isn't detached or emotionless, which allows the academy elder to manipulate him into the clan structure through benefits, and also incentivises the clan leader and faction elders to prevent the academy elder's suppression of him, while supporting his defense in the upcoming investigation. However, Fang Yuan would need a far bigger setup to bring the attention of the elder onto himself, so he chose to advance to middle stage rank which would become a setup for his misdirection while also giving the elder incentive to investigate him (because it makes no sense for Fang Yuan to have reached middle rank the fastest among his classmates with his low talent unless he had external help).

11: However, when he reached middle stage, he chose to patiently wait in his room so that the elder sends guards to his house to question why he was absent from school. This is needed for 3 purposes. Fear inducing the students, forcing the elder to send spies after himself to save his own reputation, blowing the issue out of the water to have the factions suppress the academy elder's interference in the issues of the students, and setting up the misdirection in the upcoming investigation, by using this basis to bring up the liquor worm as an excuse for hiding information, the purpose of which was to make the elders believe he isn't competent at acting. This will be explained.

12: Fang Yuan does the above by cutting off a leg from one guard and the arm of the remaining guard. However, he chose to leave one guard behind and dragged the other one to the classroom, which made the students believe he had killed the guards. (inducing PTSD)

13: The act was justified for multiple reasons: Reason 1: The clan (and the entire gu world for that matter) values strength above all else, especially given the 3-way war between Fang Yuan's village and the other 2 villiages on the mountain. The elder punishing the student who rises in rank the fastest would be seen as suppression and discourage students from seeing hard work as supreme which contradicts the entire paradigm of the gu world. This would be neglecting his role as the academy elder who should be raising the students to become powerhouses for the clan. Reason 2: Mortals (who are weakest) have lives that are of no value relative to gu practitioners like Fang Yuan. Reason 3: Fang Yuan did not actually kill either of the guards. Thus it was not a crime for Fang Yuan. The legal structure of the mortal-level clan in a world focused on strength and cutting off weaklings is obviously not as sophisticated as law in real life.

14: Fang Yuan had also made up lies about the guards slandering the clan and barging in right when he was advancing to middle stage, which forced the elder to either accept his explanation in that moment or investigate into the event. He could not look into the event because the truth of whether they had truly slandered the clan would be revealed (they didn't) which would destroy his reputation if he continued punishing them. If he did not want to become known as an elder that suppresses students with potential in the clan, he had no choice but to refrain from investigating the matter, instead pretending that Fang Yuan's obviously slanderous words were true.

15: The frustration he made the elder feel sets him up as a witness during the interim period after he murdered Jia Jin Sheng, as the elder sends investigators after him to determine how he advanced to middle stage. Fang Yuan did not receive any punishment. On the contrary, he was showered with compliments, which made the other students very afraid. With the issue blown up like this, it will also force either the clan leader himself, or the 2 main elders to interfere and prevent the academy elder from suppressing Fang Yuan (they want to protect the clan rules because the clan rules prevent the interference of the other factions with their own descendants). This frustration in the elder was further strengthened when Fang Yuan continued to extort them after they became student leaders, but could not interfere since the student leaders were from the main factions, and the faction heads wanted to see them grow in the face of setbacks (a student who needs interference from the adults because he's too weak to be able to go up against another fellow student does not deserve to be the leader of the faction). Fang Yuan's extortion (“rashness”, “arrogance”, and “displeasure” was done for the higher-ups to interpret as “showing weakness”.

16: This is what the spies investigated: Fang Yuan's daily life was very simple, and he had a rigid schedule. During the day he would always be attending lessons in the academy, and at night he would always sleep in the dormitories. He worked extremely hard on his cultivation, nurturing his aperture every single night. On some days, he would go out to the village’s only inn to have better meals and to buy wine. He had a special affection towards wine, especially green bamboo wine. He kept a dozen jars of it under his bed. The last point sets up his misdirection to the liquor worm, while the first part makes it clear he has no time for killing Jia Jin Sheng. Also the elder investigated his background and Fang Yuan's experience of being at such a high point and then suddenly falling when his low talent is revealed deceives the elder into thinking Fang Yuan's rebelliousness and arrogance against the clan was understandable.

17: The merchant caravan finally arrives and Fang Yuan who was last seen with him is brought to interrogation. Fang Yuan is brought into the room with all the elders including the Merchant Caravan Leader Jia Fu who needs to find an explanation for his brother's death if he doesn't want to make it seem like he killed his own brother for a higher share of the inheritance. Even the clan leader thought that if Fang Zheng was actually the murder, he would scapegoat Fang Yuan instead since Fang Zheng had higher innate talent.

19: When Fang Yuan was first asked if he knows who Jia Jin Sheng is, he asks "who is Jia Jin Sheng?" which forces the female witness who saw him at the caravan to scream "he's lying!" and explain how Fang Yuan gambled in Jia Jin Sheng's caravan. Fang Yuan puts on an expression of nervousness before pretending that he suddenly realized who it is, lying that he never saw him again.

20: When another witness (a male employee at the tavern he met with Jia Jin Sheng again in) calls him out for lying again, Fang Yuan looks at him as if he only just recognized him, reveals a shocked face, then tries to suppress the shock once more. The elders saw these changes in expression, but this was intentionally done to make them believe he isn't great at acting, while also setting up a further misdirection. This is also seen through by the tavern witness which gave him the confidence to reveal the truth about how Fang Yuan had met with Jia Jin Sheng at the tavern.

21: Fang Yuan puts on a frantic expression and shouts “How can that be!” He hurriedly said, “The wine shop had so many people, how can you be sure it was me? You might be mistaken!” This supposedly clear attempt at an excuse makes it obvious Fang Yuan is lying and truly did meet him at the tavern, and that he is also not that competent at acting. However, Fang Yuan needs an object of misdirection, and he chose to use the tavern worker because of a prior setup that accidentally became useful (the tavern worker also saw him feeding a rare liquor worm). This becomes the excuse for what he was trying to hide with his lie.

22: When the witness smugly mentions how Fang Yuan had the rare liquor worm, Fang Yuan laughed coldly in his heart, but showed an expression of shock on his face and pretended to subconsciously take a step backwards.

23: The elders asked him where he got the liquor worm from, but he clenched his fists, gritted his teeth, and refused to answer, acting stubborn! This forces them all into a frenzy as they ask him where he obtained the liquor worm, and when finally an elder asks him if he killed Jia Jin Sheng to obtain the liquor worm, Fang Yuan uses the opportunity for his acting by raising his head and indignantly shouting loudly as if he had been slandered, "How can it be his? I obtained it myself! I opened it!"

24: When he is question, he lies, “That’s right. At this point, I shall not hide it any further!” Fang Yuan acted as if he was risking everything, speaking urgently. (he chose to tell a half-truth that conveniently leaves out him going to the cave with Jia Jin Sheng)

25: However, there needs to be a source for the liquor worm. Fang Yuan actually set up the source in a previous tactic that did not succeed, so he reused the same tactic here to convincingly excuse the existence of the liquor worm as a product of luck, with a proper witness (the female worker) and justification. The trick was that when he bought 6 rocks at the gambling tavern, he did not actually open the sixth one. He only opened it at home, and it turned out to be empty, but he lied that the liquor worm was obtained from it! At this point he simply stayed silent and let the elders justify it themselves! Probability being low? Anything can be justified with luck, and it was already proven Fang Yuan supposedly got lucky when he opened the other gu worm with multiple witnesses in public. Refinement difficulty? Easy, since gu worms are weak after hibernation, etc.

26: Finally, Fang Yuan continues once more, making up the story about Jia Jin Sheng, without contradicting the logical facts revealed by the witnesses. However, Fang Yuan also intentionally revealed how Jia Jing Sheng had tried to scam someone only for Jia Fu to appear and save the day, revealing their internal conflict. This "accidental" mention sets up his upcoming accusation which indirectly misdirects the murder to Jia Fu's other brother, while also compelling Jia Fu to change the topic out of embarrassment. Jia Fu asks if JJS chased after Fang Yuan when he left the tavern, and Fang Yuan speaks the half truth that he did, but that the purpose was to buy the liquor worm and they never saw each other again.

27: “Speak, did you kill Jia Jin Sheng?!” Jia Fu demanded, attempting to pressure Fang Yuan with his aura. Fang Yuan denied it once again, claiming that he did not see Jia Jin Sheng after that. Jia Fu had no other evidence. At this point, it had become a stalemate. As Gu Yue Bo listened, he grew displeased. Jia Jin Sheng actually dared to threaten the Gu Yue Clan? This was not giving them any respect! Now Jia Fu dared to interrogate a Gu Yue clansman so intensely in front of all the clan elders. It was one thing if he had evidence, but he clearly did not.

28: Their family also had a method to trace the gu worms of the dead member, but Fang Yuan choosing to destroy the gu worms cut off this method, so what exactly is the motive? The murderer stole nothing, and it can't even be a crime of passion (such as both being in love with the same person) because that would be longer-term which would make it even less likely for this exact village to be the culprit since it would open up possibilities of prior planning before the caravan had even entered the village.

29: When the hall falls into silence and a stalemate is reached, Fang Yuan finally opens up the core method of his entire scheme! He says to Jia Fu “Maybe you killed him. I heard that your father is splitting his inheritance. Now that one brother is dead, wouldn’t you get more?” Everyone is already fairly certain it isn't Jia Fu so the elders tell Fang Yuan to shut up. There is no way Jia Fu is so dumb that he's going to kill his own brother who was entrusted to him, since it'll only guilt him in the eyes of the father sharing the inheritance. This makes Fang Yuan look politically "average" in intelligence in the eyes of the elders since he was only able to think a few layers deep and not see the big picture. But he did this intentionally!! The second setup is that, while Jia Fu himself would not want to kill Jia Jin Sheng, the OTHER BROTHER who wants to frame Jia Fu as the murderer for a higher share of the inheritance has the motive!!

30: “The Jia family’s internal dispute!” One of the elders had a flash of inspiration and lightly muttered. He did not speak loudly, but in the silent hall, it could be heard clearly. All at once, the elders’ eyes lit up. Finally, they’ve realized it. Fang Yuan’s mouth twitched, his eyelids drooping to hide the cold light in his eyes.

31: To make someone believe in something wholeheartedly, you cannot convince them, you must direct them. Fang Yuan’s keen eyes allowed him to see these glances, and he laughed coldly in his heart, but his face still showed indignation and stubbornness. At this point, even Jia Fu was deceived into believing his own brother had killed Jia Jin Sheng. However, he had no choice but to "frame" Fang Yuan as a scapegoat.

32: Jia Fu kept questioning Fang Yuan, and asks if he has a witness. Eventually, Fang Yuan shows an indignant expression after being berated, but finally grits his teeth and "helplessly" says “No.” Right when he is about to be accused as the murderer, the academy elder who Fang Yuan set up as the witness speaks up to defend him, and mentions how he sent spies to investigate Fang Yuan with no time available for Fang Yuan to harm Jia Jin Sheng.

33: The main reason the clan Leader approves of the academy elder speaking up is political and geographical (the mountainous region makes travel and trade difficult so the merchant caravans need to be relied on but if the clan gains the reputation of murdering an important caravan member, caravans will avoid them due to lack of trust). Fang Yuan was a mere C grade, so if he really had harmed Jia Jin Sheng, handing him over was nothing. But now that he had been cleared of all suspicion, if he was handed over, the Gu Yue Clan would suffer a great injustice and suffer a terrible loss. Yes, this is it… Fang Yuan was hidden behind the academy elder’s back, and no one could see his lips curl into a slight smile.

35: Jia Fu also uses a footprint gu to see Fang Yuan's 30000 footprints, but since he chose to stay away from the cave in the past few days, all his footprints show him circling the village, corroborating the academy elder's investigation.

36: The final method was a truth detector gu, but rather than panicking, Fang Yuan confidently and unhesitatingly does as instructed since he realizes that he has a rare gu worm that can suppress its effect.

37: There is one final investigator remaining (Tie Xue Leng), but he is terribly busy and likely to come only in 2-3 years, by which Fang Yuan plans to have already escaped the mountain after reaching Rank 3.

I didn't explain a lot of the background of the story, but it helps to make it less confusing when you know how the gu world is structured.

Pure Methodology Categories (examples):

Methodological Complexity (highest importance), Rigour Maintenance Relative to Complexity (very high importance), Strategic Creativity (high importance), Insightfulness (important), Theory of Mind (important).

Normal Scaling is "how smart the character is story-wise."

Normal Scaling and Pure Methodology are basically OPPOSITES. One scales the intelligence of the characters story-wise, and the other evaluates the explicit methods of the characters' feats from a perspective detached from the story (non-diegetically).

Thinking of it another way, Normal Scaling is a narrative evaluation and Pure Methodology is a game-theoretical evaluation.

Voting Rules:

Highest upvote count + (( total comment count ) multiplied by 2)

Vote for a SERIES rather than a character.

If there is a draw, I might just put 2 series in 1 box or use a tie breaker.

Each spot will have around 1 day of voting time.

Current Vote: Which series is low tier in both Normal Scaling and Pure Methodology?

Methodological Complexity: Akiyama (not close)

Justification: The most complex feat of Akiyama vs the most complex feat of Fang Yuan is closer in number of variables explicated, but the general complexity (average feat from both) is not even remotely close. Also, the complexity of Fang Yuan's fate war feats is overrated since the interconnectedness is not high. It isn't purely "hundreds of chapters of scheming" like some people assume, since there was a high level of improvisation involved for the majority of the elements. Interconnectedness is important for methodological complexity.

General rigour: Akiyama (close)

Justification: Akiyama's feats are mainly mathematically rigorous which makes it very difficult for people to flaw, and there are almost no loopholes available for an opponent to exploit once he implements his strategies. The reason Fang Yuan is close is due to the "rationality rigour" in his feats. His feats often have similar (and sometimes higher) levels of unexploitability due to its strong adherence to the world's rules, political systems, human psychology, realism, etc. Also, a criticism for Liar Game is that the opponents can often be very stupid. Just to give an example: They fell for Yokoya's "clairvoyance" for multiple rounds straight rather than considering the possibility of a traitor and lying to their team about how much money they would take out, THEN they fell for Akiyama's pseudoscience lie which I suppose wasn't that bad since normal humans could find it convincing too if someone spoke confidently and persuasively, but THEN they fell for Harimoto saying his spirit controlled the tablet. These are just a few examples of the same type, but there are way too many. This often translates to existent exploitable loopholes, such as in games like Musical Chairs where the overall strategy relied on a simple modelling of characters and their motivations (stalking doesn't work, Gaia are generally inactive or uncreative during intermediate rest periods, etc.), or as another example, the abrupt introduction of contracts in RO4K which previously went unutilized for situations in which it demanded the utility of trust, which detracts from the writing too. This is why even though Liar Game is more rigorous (even mathematically for many of the feats), Reverend Insanity is close due to its contextual rigour which Liar Game lacks.

Rigour maintenance relative to complexity: Akiyama (not close)

Justification: While the general rigour may be close, the maintained level of rigour given increasing complexity is nowhere near close. The majority of the logical loopholes and flaws that can be exploited in Akiyama's feats are often a result of the increasing level of complexity formulated by the author. Conversely, as Fang Yuan's feats increase in complexity, it is often improvisation or external additions or even ambiguity (such as coming up with killer moves on the spot) that is thrown in to maintain the motivations of the characters and make the strategies succeed. Note: As the complexity increases, the logical rigour tends to decrease, so maintaining a rigour to complexity ratio of 1:1 is easy with low complexity, but very difficult with high complexity. Some of Fang Yuan's lower level feats (like volume 1) may be highly rigorous but they lack the level of complexity Akiyama's strategies had, meanwhile his complex feats often lack rigour. Akiyama contrastingly maintains rigour despite the shifts in complexity.

Strategic Creativity: Akiyama (close)

Justification: Fang Yuan's feats often involve the author creatively shaping the gu world itself to make his feats succeed, while Akiyama's feats are often done in fixed frameworks where author intervention is not present to the same extent, so the creativity needs to be assessed from the perspective of the character instead. Fang Yuan's feats can overrely on utilizing the given system in an unexplained manner (coming up with killer moves to resolve unresolvable situations) while Akiyama usually goes beyond fixed systems in creative but logically determinate ways that don't adhere to the general methodology expected of a character within the system while still adhering to the overall logic of the given world and rules in a way that can be tracked by the reader.

Overall (Strategic Methodology): Akiyama (not even close)

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Insightfulness: Fang Yuan (not close)

Justification: Akiyama's depth is mainly strategic, not philosophical. While some of his quotes may give insight into human nature or social systems, such as his quote about doubt, it doesn't even come close to the depth of insight expounded upon by Fang Yuan (social systems, philosophical extremes, human nature, etc.) Fang Yuan easily takes this.

Mentality: Fang Yuan (close)

Justification: Surprisingly close. Fang Yuan's mentality makes him very difficult to outsmart. It is also a mentality that most people are automatically averse to, which prevents them from coming to similar conclusions despite having similar belief values as premises, the logical consequences of which should be inevitable given their paradigm. This mentality is a core theme of the novel and is expounded upon in detail through his monologues and thoughts. However, Akiyama's mentality of often thinking outside of entire systems (Musical Chairs, NPL Plan) and even removing his own self-preservation bias to come up with plans that transcend given systems (Self-Sacrifice Plan, Musical Chairs Laevinic Defeat, etc.) brings him closer. However, Fang Yuan's mentality is clearly a level above Akiyama's and is of a form that makes him harder to outsmart than if he were to have Akiyama's attachment mentality. Additionally, Akiyama has antifeats such as falling for Yokoya's taunting rather than improvising a method to keep him in the game (Nao had to do it instead), so Fang Yuan takes.

Theory of Mind: Fang Yuan (not close)

Justification: Akiyama does have some good showings of theory of mind, by utilizing tactics that depend on the intelligence of the person being manipulated (pseudoscientific tactic for the NPCs, complex strategies to cognitive overload the intelligent opponents like Yokoya, and empathetic speech for Nao that overturns her worldview without sounding overbearing or resulting in her becoming defensive). However, the theoretical depth is nowhere near close to Fang Yuan's feats. Even using only his volume 1 feats (understanding of how the psychological state of the elders shapes and maintains the political systems in place, using Mo Yan's state of mind against her, monologues on the mentality of virtually every opponent and character throughout the volume, etc.) is enough to surpass Akiyama's theory of mind which was often simple unpredictable motivation-based game theoretical modelling.

Overall (Non-Strategic Methodology): Fang Yuan (not close)

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Conclusion

These are basically the main categories of methodology scaling important for this specific comparison.

Overall (Strategic Methodology): Akiyama (not even close)

Overall (Non-Strategic Methodology): Fang Yuan (not close)

Overall Methodology: Akiyama low-mid diffs. The categories he doesn't take from Fang Yuan (non-strategic methodology) are actually not that difficult to make a character scale high in compared to the ones he does take (strategic methodology), so the importance is lower. Rigour maintenance combined with complexity especially requires a really high level of intelligence to maintain, so those are given the most importance.

I don't like using too many categories in methodology scaling, especially for a comparison that does not require it, but if I missed any important categories, let me know so I can either include it, or explain why I didn't include it.

If you don't know what methodology is, please don't get ragebaited by this post. It's a completely serious post, but most people don't know how to (or find it very difficult to) use a scaling system like this because of how unintuitive it is. If you don't like scaling systems, you can simply move on and ignore the post... or rant about how I'm ruining your life or not adhering to objectivity or something like that, I don't really care (you're wrong).

I also think Fang Yuan outsmarts Akiyama by the way, but this post is an evaluation of their respective methodologies, not their innate "smartness" derivable from the narrative, so Akiyama takes the win.

Preferably something you can read or watch from start to end (like a novel or book, not a textbook).

Focusing on creativity and divergent thinking at the moment, not rigorousness.

It can be non-fictional like The Art of Strategy: A Game Theorist's Guide which was fun to read and is a perfect example of the kind of thing I'm looking for.

It can also be fictional. Something like 18LoH / Liar Game was also highly enjoyable to read for example. 18LoH was much more enjoyable than Liar Game since the braindead side characters of Liar Game were a turnoff.

Anything more? I wanna explore interesting ideas but I don't wanna take out a pen and paper to start solving things, so it should be similar to a book that can be read from beginning to end rather than a rigorous textbook, but if you know a really good textbook that was enjoyable for you, that'll be okay too since I can add it to my reading list for later. However, at the moment my reading priority is diverse sources of inspiration rather than something to drill in concepts rigorously.

ALSO it can be a website or youtube channel that I can explore. Again, the focus is on creativity, divergent thinking, enjoyability, smooth reading/viewing experience, etc.

Please give recommendations if you've found anything interesting. Age level doesn't matter, difficulty doesn't matter, I don't have a strict criteria for this, just give what you know if you think I might find it interesting.

Obviously [ Ravages of Time / Liar Game ] is extremely high...

and [ Usogui / One Outs / Akagi / Kingdom ] are up there.

And [ Death Note / Master of Gu / Dr Frost ] is also pretty good.

And [ Ember Knight ] is not that bad I suppose.

And [ COTE ] manga is a low tier bum fraud trash fodder verse with subhuman IQ methodology etc. etc. etc.

Let's ignore these popular ones for a moment.

What are some manga/manhwa/manhua that scale high in methodology? It's obviously gotta be somewhat scheming focused otherwise it can't really scale high. It doesn't need to be a top tier, but it should at least be on the level of Master of Gu or even Ember Knight, but preferably higher.

Do you know of any?

He is allergic to braindead characters. If a character acts stupid, he will act up and his allergies will make him suffer.

He is also allergic to getting hard. Make sure there is absolutely 0 sexual/romantic content otherwise he WILL get hard and thus suffer from extreme allergic reactions.

He is NOT allergic to dark content so if there is murder, politics, warfare, etc., that's completely okay.

He IS allergic to narrative-merchants that lack onscreen feats so make sure the novel has good methodology too.

Let's just say he is 20 years old, so intelligent enough to handle complexity.

Examples of good recs: 18LoH, Reverend Insanity Volume 1, Lupin, Sherlock, Death Note without Misa.

Examples of bad recs: COTE (allergy gonna kill 🙏😂), Liar Game (braindead opponents = allergy), Monster (narrative merchant = allergy).

Any recommendations? I don't want him to suffer, but he enjoys reading so he's using me as the poisontester for his allergies.

No sexual themes please. I found a novel on Discord I thought was good for my little brother, but then a few chapters in you already have explicit adult content...

Dark content is okay (like Reverend Insanity volume 1) as long as it's NOT sexual.

Explicit Murder Scenes ✅🥰

Dark Horror and Psychological Terror ✅✋😎✋

High Complexity ✅🧠🔥

Kissing ❌❌❌❌❌

It should be a high tier at the very least, but with a focus on methodology, so not just a featless statement-dependent character.

Example of bad recommendation: COTE. Focus is on fanservice rather than SCD.

Example of an okay recommendation: Death Note. There are some inappropriate scenes present, but at least the focus is on outsmarting and the methodology is not bad. Liar Game has extreme methodology so it might be too much for him. Also it has poor writing and there is a bald guy in the novel who walks around with inappropriate clothing all the time.

Example of a good recommendation: Reverend Insanity volume 1 which is my favourite volume of one of my favourite novels (in writing). Only volume 1. There is almost no sexual content if I remember correctly.. other than the stuff with Shen Cui trying to seduce him at the start.

Example of an almost perfect recommendation: 18LoH maybe? Only thing is that it becomes too hard for him in the Wolf Sheep Shepherd arc, but it was highly enjoyable at least, and he asked me for more chapters when I gave him a few chapters of this novel.

I need more recommendations. Give suggestions so I can give my lil bro an enjoyable SCD novel to read that gets him used to reading.

I've seen this multiple times. Sometimes it's clearly a joke, but sometimes people who haven't read 18LoH seriously think this is true so I might as well clarify.

**Two examples** are a female character I saw once who is said to never lie, and Fang Yuan who has very good self control and metacognition, thus being highly difficult (maybe close to impossible once he adapts to the rules) to trick into lying.

However... wait till you find out about "common sense" lies.

Wait till you find out about truths that count as lies, or even truths that can be turned into lies, and lies that can be turned into common sense truths. Saying "I can't read" generally counts as a lie even if it's true that you can't read.

Wait till you find out about insults like "fuck!" counting as a lie. Fang Yuan swore multiple times in Reverend Insanity btw.

"Fuck your 18 generations of ancestors!"

— Goat Yuan (the above quote counts as a lie)

Wait till you find out about skills that can make people lose their memories, common sense, force them to deduce instances, etc.

Even if you are narratively an honest person who NEVER lies, this does not save you from lying in 18LoH, especially when objective truths can count as common sense falsehood.

Wait till you find out about the instance mechanisms that have many effects on your mind.

Also... being smarter than someone does not even require "being able to make them lie." Even if there is a character who can never be physically defeated by Chen Ran under a specific set of rules, that does not mean the character is automatically smarter.

Intelligence scaling is not that simple. This is especially true for methodology scaling where such things are completely irrelevant.

If you seriously think being honest can make you survive 18LoH, here's an example of honesty getting you killed:

Honest guy who never lies: gets hit by an instance mechanism where he loses his memories of Chinese.

Chen Ran pointing at a sentence in a book: "Can you read?"

Honest guy who never lies: "No." (truth that counts as lie)

Chen Ran: "You lied!" (lie that counts as truth)

**Bang!!!***

Honest guy dies.

"Never lying" is one of the many useful rules/tips/tricks needed to be embodied for surviving 18LoH, but the definition of a lie makes it very difficult to survive just from knowing this rule alone. There are far more guidelines needed for surviving (such as not touching things randomly, which is a tip that applies to the Lin Ou novel instances too).

These are only the basic rules discovered in the first arcs. It gets harder and harder...

Reasoning: Chen Ran

FSIQ (Narrative): Chen Ran >=

Strategy: Chen Ran

Methodology Complexity: Chen Ran >>

Methodology Logical Rigour: Chen Ran

Methodology Creativity: Chen Ran

Planning: Lin Ou >= (using future chapters)

Foresight: Lin Ou >= (using future chapters)

Deception: Lin Ou (using future chapters)

Adversity Capacity: Chen Ran

Mentality: Chen Ran (close) via methodology. Lin Ou or CGEW via narrative.

Less Weaknesses: Lin Ou

Higher Strengths: Chen Ran

Methodological (Philosophical) Insight: Chen Ran

Psychological / Emotional Understanding: Chen Ran

Social Skills: Lin Ou easily

Adaptability: CGEW

Writing: 18LoH >>

Aura: Chen Ran >= (close)

Lookscaling: approximately equal

Overall: Chen Ran low-mid diffs in methodology, but it's pretty close in normal scaling especially with future context.

I've probably read more chapters of the Lin Ou novel than anyone else in this subreddit. Trust me, the author of 18LoH improved significantly from his previous work. This is why one of the best methods for writing well is to simply rewrite what you wrote poorly. With the second draft, you always have a more robust overview.

Rather than spending 1 month writing a new chapter for your novel for "perfection", it is better to spend half of the month outputting as many drafted chapters as you can (not necessarily publishing them, just writing them down), then spending the remaining half revising all of the drafts from the beginning, interconnecting them.

Perfection from macro-rewriting is better than pedantic micro-perfectionism.

Few will understand.

This is for the people claiming Fang Yuan's emotional management is merely passive and he can only withstand pain or external emotional inductment without having active emotional management feats. I'll only use chapter 55-56 (2 chapters) because 2334 chapters is overkill.

1. Fang Yuan put on a facade of nervousness followed by realization.
2. Fang Yuan pretended to be shocked at realizing someone's identity, then pretended to suppress the shock, even though he had already recognized the identity of the person from the beginning and orchestrated the entire ordeal.
3. Fang Yuan pretended to be frantic after the elders saw how he tried to "hide" his shock and questioned him even though he actually wanted them to see him hide his shock.
4. Fang Yuan pretended to be startled, taking a step backwards, while coldly laughing in his heart. This debunks the claim that Fang Yuan only has numbness and controls his inner emotions but not the outer emotions. You can clearly see the text say that he laughed coldly in his heart, while on the outside he was shocked.
5. Fang Yuan pretended to be stubborn.
6. Fang Yuan pretended to be indignant at having been slandered.
7. Fang Yuan pretended to experience resignation, desperately and urgently revealing the "truth."

You know what's even more difficult? All 7 of these are connected as part of his bigger scheme which I didn't even explain, and he's deceiving the group of experienced elders with political expertise and knowledge on the art of deception surrounding him. The remaining 3 chapters connect on from this feat, with Fang Yuan adding on a larger range of emotions such as speechlessness, helplessness, etc.

Someone made a post claiming Fang Yuan has worse emotional management than Light because Fang Yuan became numb to emotions over 500 years of living and does not need to manage as much emotion. He was serious enough to defend it ardently in the comments even going as far as insulting the people he was arguing against, so I will debunk him. By the way, if you disagree, we can discuss it on Discord, or you can just ask me to expand on any of my points, I am free to discuss for the next 2 days, after which I will probably be too busy doing something else...

Here are the arguments TAGxFool made against Fang Yuan. Correct me if I misconstrued or ignored any of your points. That way I can destroy your remaining points as well.

1st claim: Fang Yuan's internal monologue when he killed the girl indicates he is detached from his emotions. "Detached from all things.."

2nd claim: It isn't that Fang Yuan can't have EM feats but those like the ones you mentioned wouldn't be valid since he simply got used to all emotions and feels insensitive to them. In the perseverence chapter, it is explicitly shown he got insensitive to them. Numbness might be a more suitable term than insensitive though.

3rd claim: Fang Yuan showed an EM antifeat in volume 2 when he crashed out. If the opponent was a heavenly court member with means of leaving a message, Fang Yuan would have been done for.

4th claim: Emotional management is only valid if he has internal emotional fluctuations and manages them. Light is better in EM because he is shown to feel intense emotions which he suppresses and releases later on when he's safe.

5th claim: State of mind and emotional management is different.

The arguments above are invalid. I will destroy the argument using 17 premises. First by proving that the way he defined "emotional management" makes no sense, second by proving that Fang Yuan has good emotional management, and third by proving that Light's emotional management is mediocre. All the premises are connected, so don't just look at them in isolation. Try to see the connection between them.

Premise 1: When a character is scaled within a particular category or subcategory, the category must be defined in a way that relates to the overarching purpose of scaling.

Premise 2: The overarching purpose of IntelligenceScaling is to determine which character outsmarts the opponent in a given comparison.

Premise 3: Categories/subcategories that are superseded or rendered irrelevant in an outsmarting matchup by an overarching category should not be scaled.

Example for Premise 3: In a powerscaling matchup between a monkey and One Punch Man, a category like Tail Strength should not be given to the monkey. It should simply not be scaled at all, because it is ineffective against One Punch Man. The strength of the tail is also completely outshined by the strength of One Punch Man's fist. This makes it meaningless for the source of strength (tail) to even be taken into consideration when it is irrelevant. It should simply be deleted or placed under an umbrella term like "Overall Strength" to scale instead.

Premise 4: The reason Emotional Management is a useful category in IntelligenceScaling is because scaling high within the category makes it easier to outsmart opponents whilst simultaneously making oneself more difficult to outsmart. It is also related to one's cognitive faculty which makes it valid to scale.

Example for Premise 4: Emotional Management makes you calmer under duress, which makes it easier for you to outsmart an opponent, by thinking clearly rather than emotionally. It makes it harder for the opponent to outsmart you, since you are not as susceptible to their emotional manipulation techniques if you can manage your emotions well.

Temporary Conclusion 1: External and Internal emotional management should not be separated. If a character is competent enough to be able to manipulate their internal emotional state and prevent it from being exposed on the surface (Fang Yuan internally remaining calm when shocking events occur which resolves the need to forcefully control his external emotional state), this should scale higher than if a character cannot control their internal state and only forcefully suppresses their external emotional state (Light Yagami suppressing his shock on the surface after L revealed himself). In other words, internal emotional management supersedes external emotional management.

Supporting evidence for the above: If 2 characters are both faced with the same emotional event (for example fear), and character 1 controls his internal emotional state to not feel fear at all, and character 2 controls his external emotional state to make it look as if he is fearless on the surface, then character 1 will be harder to outsmart. Externally, both are equal. Both seem fearless. Internally, character 1 is fearless, which gives him more leeway for proper decision making. Whether internally or externally, character 1 is left with higher outsmarting capability and is less susceptible to emotional manipulation.

Possible Counterargument: What if the character faces a situation where he needs to feel emotions internally while maintaining composed on the surface? In such a case, having a strong state of mind and not being affected by emotional fluctuations would be less useful than being affected but only externally managing your emotions.

Counterargument debunked: Firstly, the chance of such a situation arising is almost 0%. It is highly unrealistic. For example, Light never faced a situation like the above in the entire story. Secondly, on the off chance that such a situation does end up happening, the character who cannot control his internal emotions (Light Yagami) will be subject to the emotion that is externally induced. It would need to be a massive coincidence for the induced emotions to match the desired emotions. Thirdly, even if these extremely unrealistic and improbable exceptions ever happen, Fang Yuan would still destroy Light because he does have the ability to control his external state as well. For example, when he pretended to cry despite not being sad, multiple times throughout the novel, or pretended to feel pity for his fake "child" despite being indifferent. The counterargument completely falls flat.

Premise 5: Fang Yuan was hit by a killer move that forced him to live three lives without his prior memories. During these lives, he experienced, love, rage, sorrow, etc.

Premise 6: The person who hit him with the killer move concluded: "I was wrong! I thought this Fang Yuan was a heartless person filled with hatred and rage, that it was the reason for his evil actions. But the truth is, he has abundant emotions, he does not lack anything."

Premise 7: Fang Yuan let out his laughter at Bai Ning Bing after seeing the effect of the Yin-Yang Rotation Gu at play.

Premise 8: When Fang Yuan cut off his ear, he felt bursts of intense pain. When he finished refining the second aperture, his heart was filled with intense joy.

Premise 9: Fang Yuan internally roared at himself "Weak! Too Weak!!" when he thought someone stalked him to the cave and could possibly kill him since he was only a rank 1 Gu Master. Despite this intense shock and tension on the inside, he was calm on the outside and thought clearly about his situation internally to decide his next move.

Temporary Conclusion 2: Fang Yuan is not emotionless or desensitized to emotions the way you're claiming. He feels abundant emotions. He also feels pain. He internally and externally manages his emotions to withstand the pain.

Counterargument: Fang Yuan's internal monologue involved him being detached from all things.

Debunk: The detachment is part of his philosophy. In the face of an eternal goal (immortality), all temporary values are rendered meaningless. The general claim that he is detached from all things is not an absolute statement that he feels no emotions, because there are specific instances that prove otherwise. When 2 statements are true and they seem to conflict, the specific instance serves as clarification for the general statement. For example, if someone is said to be omniscient (general statement) and they are specifically shown not to know something (specific instance), it proves that they are not truly omniscient. Their so-called "omniscience" is limited and invalid by strict terminology. The same is true with Fang Yuan, the monologue about being detached from all things is on his philosophy and how he manages himself, how he conducts himself to achieve his goal, not that he is desensitised to emotions.

Counterargument: Fang Yuan's perseverance arc showed that even though he feels emotions, he became numb to them over time, so the extent of emotions he needs to actually manage compared to Light is lower. When L revealed himself to Light, Light was very shocked internally which the panels showed, but he forcefully suppressed it and released the emotions later in his house. Fang Yuan wasn't ever shown to do this.

Debunk 1: Firstly, it doesn't actually matter whether he withstands or manages the emotion. You're just nitpicking technicalities. No matter what situation the 2 of them face, Fang Yuan's emotional "numbness" as you put it will be more useful than Light's. For example if L revealed "I am L!" to Fang Yuan rather than Light, whether Fang Yuan internally suppresses his emotions or just withstands the shock, the result is the same. If you can't give a proper distinction or reason for one of them to scale higher due to the difference, then there's no sense in trying to argue that "numbness" is inferior to "suppression". If the "numbness" is not biological but rather psychological, then your argument is completely irrelevant and useless, and I already proved Fang Yuan biologically and psychologically feels emotions, he just withstands and manages them.

Debunk 2: Secondly, more importantly, you're wrong. When Fang Yuan successfully refined Second Aperture Gu, his heart was exploding with joy (the novel states this). Right after, Bai Ning Bing stabbed a blade into his heart. Bai Ning Bing and Tie Ruo Nan revealed that they had trapped Fang Yuan and were actually working together. From there, Fang Yuan remained calm, stalled for time, healed himself while listening to them, and escaped when the opportunity came, only to again have his hope crushed when it turned out there was a Gu on his arm that could be used by the opponent to track him anywhere. Twice in a row he had his hopes crushed and the novel specifically mentions that the first time "his heart was exploding with joy." He suppressed his emotions the entire time, conjuring up schemes with his heart stabbed by a blade after the intense emotional reversal. Cognitive science proves that emotional turbulence caused by a large switch from positive to negative emotions is more disturbing for one's mind than simply shifting from a neutral emotional state to a negative one. Despite all this, it was only after rebirth that Fang Yuan let out his emotions. Proof is in chapter 396-398. In other words, your claim about how only Light controls his emotions and lets it out in a safer environment is false. Fang Yuan did the same.

Counterargument: What if the person who was there while he let out his emotions had a secret technique similar to heavenly court where he could expose Fang Yuan by sending out a message?

Debunk: Fang Yuan already checked the other person's aperture, and even dealt with him in his previous life, with no repercussions. The probability of that guy having something that can surpass the blessed land's restrictions despite being a mortal, and Fang Yuan not being able to see it after checking his aperture would be extremely low. Also... this same argument can be used against you.

Returning the argument: What if Light Yagami's parents heard him from downstairs while he was crashing out in his room? This is far more likely than the almost 0 probability you were referring to. When Light crashed out, he shouted about how L got him, then shouted at Ryuk to the point where Ryuk was shocked.

Premise 10: Light was emotionally ragebaited into killing Lind L Taylor.

Premise 11: Light revealed he was Kira to Naomi before the death note took effect due to a sense of pride.

Premise 12: Light shouted at Misa for asking him too many questions after Mello outsmarted him.

Premise 13: Light smirked at L when he died, to show him that he was indeed Kira.

Premise 14: Light could not hold back from revealing to Near at the end that he won, before the opponents dropped dead. This premise was used as proof by Near to enguilt him.

Premise 15: Light could not suppress his internal fluctuations to think straight at the end. This is shown when he blundered in trying to justify himself to the task force by telling them that it was a trap from Near given that none of them had died. This is unreasonable because Near clearly explained only a moment earlier that the notebooks had been swapped. Going back to premise 4, this is why internal emotional management is more important than external management, it allows you to reason properly.

Premise 16: Light eventually couldn't hold back from laughing like a maniac which cut off the remaining pathways for him and removed all doubt from the hearts of the task force that he is Kira.

Premise 17: Light physically assaulted L during the memory loss arc when L said a sentence that ragebaited him. Even without his memories as Kira, he could not keep his emotions in check.

Temporary Conclusion 3: Light Yagami does not have good EM.

Counterargument: Light's emotional actions were justified by logic.

Debunk: You are mistaken. Even if you use farfetched interpretation and headcanon to justify some of these emotionally charged actions, some of these were undoubtably of 0 benefit for Light. What does he gain by revealing that he is Kira to Naomi? All risk with zero benefits. It's not even a massive emotional tribulation such as Fang Yuan getting stabbed in the heart right after he is filled with immense joy at thinking he succeeded, it's just a little sense of pride that Light simply could not control. Light's EM is not good. It's not bad, but it's just not good either.

Extra Argument (optional): In Reverend Insanity, thoughts are a subcomponent of "will" which is a subcomponent of "emotion." The Reverse Flow River gradually wipes away all thoughts of moving forward and willpower from one's mind (See chapter 1279-1285). No gu was used by Fang Yuan within the reverse flow river (the suppression was confirmed to exist). Emotion must be used as the source of replenishment for thoughts and willpower. Supporting evidence for this is that all the people who remained on the river were explicitly shown to possess emotional drive towards a particular goal in order to keep moving forward (such as the love that Zhao Lian Yun felt for Ma Hong Yun). Further supporting evidence for this is that all of the immortals eventually had faces filled with emotion (anger, sorrow, etc.) after the River washed them out, which indicates that their willpower had run out and emotions were used as replenishment. Fang Yuan had no emotions evident on his face, unlike the other immortals.

Inference from the above: Fang Yuan either has so much willpower, the river was unable to wipe all of it away even with him spending more time in the river than the rest of the people, or alternatively, his management over his emotions is so powerful that he showed no external fluctuation despite needing to subconsciously replenish his will and thoughts of moving forward. He was the second person throughout the entirety of the millions of years of gu world human history to have completely conquered the river.

Overall Conclusion

This post should make it obvious to those of sound mind that emotional management should not be defined separately from one's state of mind or outsmarting capability, and also that Fang Yuan has good emotional management that exceeds Light Yagami's by a significant margin.

The premises are not strictly interdependent so even if you refute half of my points (which you won't be able to 🤫), Fang Yuan will still scale higher in EM.

Chapter 1 Fang Yuan is honestly enough, but it's going to be hard to use in a debate, so it's better to use Chapter 5 Fang Yuan if you want to argue that he scales above Light in EM. If you're not a competent debater or your opponent is knowledgable on both works, chapter 15 should allow you to easily argue this take. If they use a scaling system to heavily restrict Fang Yuan, undoubtedly his feats up to chapter 60 should surely be enough.

Emotional management should not be defined in a way that favours something you are entirely biased to and separate from the outsmarting capability of the character. Otherwise it would be like saying One Punch Man high diffs a random monkey by bringing up useless categories like "Tail strength" and saying the monkey technically takes those since One Punch Man doesn't have a tail.

It's pretty clear Fang Yuan does feel emotions though, he simply regulates (manages) his state of mind so well, the irrational emotional fluctuations that are induced into him by external factors that constantly pop up do not dictate his moves, which is what contributes to his overall outsmarting capability.

This is part of what makes Fang Yuan so difficult to outsmart.