u/Then-Disk-5079

I ran across a large higher education campus environment a Trane system where it appeared to be a flat IT LAN where then each building operated on a unique UDP port for BACnet.

Is that common for Trane?

47809 for one building, 47810 for another, 47811 etc and so on about 30 to 40 buildings I bet.

I also did a lot of campus work prior but for corporate JCI and we always had a subnet for each building.

Wouldn’t this be a BACnet routing nightmare? I’m always used to see BACnet routing or a router referred to an IP to MSTP scenario inside a building but in a campus application like this there would need to be a Trane device at each building acting as a IP to IP router right?

And then how they factor in BACnet networks it seems even more confusing. Aren’t BACnet IP networks typically defined as network number 0 and the MSTP networks can be any higher number network typically what I see.

Any idea in a flat IT networking LAN like this with many buildings in unique UDP ports would all BACnet IP networks be network number 0?

When I got to the building and tried to discover other devices I couldn’t figure it out until Trane finally picked up the phone and told me about the architecture and network design.

Hello I have a test bench for tinkering with some BACnet devices.

Unfortunately, my old Schnieder electric MSTP device died which was from an old job I had a while back and I don't have access anymore to a board destined for the dumpster.

IE., it was from controls service work where the IO was bad on the board but the device still communicated which was fine for my test bench work.

Anyone know if there are cheaper options for experimenting with MSTP devices on a test bench than an MSTP RIB?

https://www.functionaldevices.com/product/RIBTW2401B-BC

If anyone had any working MSTP devices with bad IO but still communicate fine I would buy something from you the practically worthless device can be sold for beans and shipped cheap in domestic US.

Anyone out there do freelance hourly rates that is in Mexico or willing to travel to Mexico City from US?

There is a smart building IoT deployment in Mexico City that needs someone that can troubleshoot on a YABE level or perhaps wire shark level of an Alerton system integration.

Strong standard field tech experience with typical BAS networking troubleshooting needed.

Please DM.

Pays high wage.

Or any of the big guys with corporate branch locations - what is the going rate these days per hour for tech time?

Gosh over ten years ago now $165 an hour for me as a service controls tech I think 🤔.

It may have been more than that but I remember I grossed at about 10-20% per hour of what was charged for me per hour at some building doing something.

What is it at now? What’s big papa charging per hour 💰💵💸💲 to pay the pencil pushers up stairs hahah?

I’ve never been in a union but I did attempt starting out. Myself not getting accepted into the boiler maker union plan B was HVAC at a non union mechanical contractor and BAS in the long haul … it got me here.

The easiest path for me has been non union where a good union job has just never manifested.

Plus in my area of the US all controls techs are non union. For example take the local corporate JCI branch all the mechanics on the service side were union and control techs for service were non union but I have heard about union controls techs other areas of the US it’s just not common upper Midwest.

I’m grateful for high hourly rates which I think has benefited non union people like myself over the years as well for setting the bar.

But does it ever get annoying?

Lower area of WI for example union was very weak and I was employed at a union electrical contractor on a JCI Fx startup and those guys did not care one single bit and encouraged me to be helping with an install like any other ordinary person on the crew. They actually liked it because no one else on the job knew how to install freeze stats on an AHU or relay logic.

But dip into IL or MN and omg different story myself being non union I was not allowed to have particular tools in my tool pouch. And it was funny they would bicker at each other that the steam fitter eyeing up the electrician that line you are running better not have any water running thru those lines as threats they will report them.

Same city upper MN my neighbor was a union electrician that ran jobs as a foreman and he wasn’t allowed to change out the electrical sub panel in his own home because I think he said it could steal from someone’s else work and he had to pay someone else to do that work. Like being too afraid to even sneak it was risky because there could be a snitch.

Does that ever get to be a little much?

I do understand that owner of companies border line steal from people like a real life Scrooge and the union is protection but does it ever get over done?

Curious on the future of unions and construction trades if they will get stronger or weaker or is it just super dependent on location?

I started in controls around 2008 pulling wires for a mechanical contractor and installing for a few years ... eventually worked my way up to commissioning with a laptop and took some IT courses at the local tech school to learn about computers more.

Prior to that I was in facilities work for a while as well.

One thing that is kinda funny is I can remember some old timers long retired around those early mid 2000's range that could do HVAC design like a registered licensed PE engineer and controls ha.

One of them worked for the mechanical contractor where the service dept was the controls dept and this guy would size and do load calcs and design duct runs pumps pipes you name it in autocad and he could setup a JACE where then mechanical service techs would commission it.

That is like a skillset that doesnt exist anymore.

Ive also seen a TAB guy that whom is probably dead by now that was licensed PE and worked his way up as a construction foreman back in the day when with enough years building mechanical systems it qualified you enough to just take the engineer test.

Isnt it like a different world these days? Is it getting better or worse?

Kids these days probably don't even know HVAC controls people used to be licensed steam fitters that ran small copper tubes around the buildings where everything was piped into an air compressor.

Do the BAS manufactures lock people out of being able to dive deep into the code bases and or operating system level of a supervisory level controller aka a Jace for example? Or server or even field level devices?

One big complaint in farming industry is farmers that can no longer fix or work on their own tractors.

I know HVAC and tractors are completely different topics and I don’t think HVAC control manufacturers ever allowed for anything other than a just basic config the board or appliance… but will this industry get worse better or not change? What is your forecast?

This is also a topic in cybersecurity podcasts most notably Darknet Diaries as well where Nintendo and Xbox biggest threat actors are the users themselves or person that paid money to buy a product or tractor or is a BAS any different?

For example why couldn’t a qualified computer engineering student at a university be locked out from using the Xbox however they want it to or the farmer that also has a mechanical engineering degree.

I’ve also seen more than once computer engineering graduates setting up HVAC controls in the field when they have the qualifications to make the entire board.

What’s your thought? I’ve also wondered why no more options exist out there in an industry of every thing that is super canned.

Whatever you do don’t modify your engine computer or Ford motor company will void your warranty.

One real cool thing that the moment is Delta RED five line up you can get into a python interactive shell environment on any device even a VAV box !

I’ve worked as a controls tech for 10 years some of which on the service side where this is a lot tinkering.

IE, some of the old corporate JCI control service techs now retired did nothing but tinker to keep an old hospital running or something. I think I can remember 10 years back one massive hospital in US payed a quarter million per year for some older timer tinkerer to sit onsite full time.

So point being the industry is tinkerer friendly with the exception of software. Why is that? Is it because the mechanical contractors have an easier time adjusting the refer levels in the chiller vs Linux and web app development?

Or industry is just a greased wheel for profit only?

Home automation industry seems completely tinkerer based but seems “software tinkerers” where it seems like home automation skillsets are more closely related to IT and IoT.

Thoughts?

Why hasn’t NR taken off in the building automation industry where I think it has in industrial automation industry over the past few years?

Is it because industrial automation at the same time I think adopted mqtt which NR handles well and other industrial protocols like OPC/UA or even modbus.

Or is it that BAS/BMS manufacturers wouldn’t like this and prevent it with their “multipliers” for the people or contractors buying the product… aka they would kill there multiplier if they don’t buy there XYZ. Hopefully that makes sense I have never been in sales but i think it is something along these lines from what I hear.

I wonder why Sedona has not been a Niagara framework killer. Why hasn’t Sedona been something that trompted on existing industry?

home assistant is completely free isn’t Sedona as well? why hasn’t it taken off?

I have never used it but am real curious if any one’s opinion…