u/ThisKir

From Gemini:

>The central dispute between Analytic and Continental philosophy lies in their core methodologies and scope. Analytic philosophers prioritize clarity, logic, and scientific rigor, breaking problems down into components. Continental philosophers favor speculative synthesis, addressing large humanistic and historical questions while often utilizing dense, interpretive prose.

Zen is indisputably a tradition that favors clarity, logic, and a sort of scientific rigor in addressing people's problems. Just look at Huangbo. Or Linji. Or even Bankei. It rejects speculation and subjective interpretations of internal experiences as a waste of time; which raises the intriguing question of...how much more pre-requisite knowledge would students trained in the methodologies of analytic philosophy need before taking a college course on Zen?

I'm not sure, but it certainly seems like people who are oriented towards continental philosophy would first need the training that an analytic philosophy affords before they can start studying Zen professionally. The necessity of studying continental philosophy doesn't seem to be true for anyone.

I think that's what makes Zen so hard for a lot of even well-meaning people whose education had Continental approaches as an unexamined background radiation. Zen Masters are just so ruthless in demonstrating enlightenment in face of no-holds-barred Zen inquisitions. I mean seriously...

If you can't answer, dead. If you can't prove Mind is Buddha, dead. If you can't converse across Zen generations, dead. If you can't keep the precepts, dead.

You get the idea.

The personal verification-and-attesting of enlightenment is ultimately where Zen parts ways with philosophical methodologies, but unless someone can logically parse a Zen argument for themselves, they would never get to that part of the conversation in the first place.

From Bankei:

>Until you've examined your own self, however much I tell you about how things look, you won't be recognizing it, seeing it, or settling it for yourself, so you won't be convinced.

Nobody sees Buddha by making stuff up.

>Imperial Preceptor Zhong was once asked by Emperor Suzong, "What dharma did you attain at Caoxi?"

>The teacher said, "Does Your Majesty see that patch of cloud in the sky?"

>The Emperor said, "I see it."

>The teacher said, "Nailed it."

>>Xutang, standing in for Emperor Suzong, remarks, "Then where is Caoxi?"

The idea that there is something special to "get" just has no currency in Zen. Everything they say is about bringing your attention back to reality rather than pretending that there is somewhere else to be, some other state to attain, some purification that needs to be done.

That's why Zen cases trigger Zazen Buddhists so much. Their whole identity is centered around the belief that Zen Masters taught that Buddhahood is a state that is entered by ritual performance and that unless you're doing that you're not really in the state of enlightenment-grace.

If you can see the clouds in the sky without pretending that they're anything special, what would you need a teacher for?

Bonus points for whomever can explain Xutang's remark.

Over the past few days I've been making a translation of Nanyue Mingzan aka. Lanzan's (Lazy Zan) Song on Enjoying the Way.

https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/enjoyingtheway

I discovered its existence initially through reading Sasaki's translation of Linji with her previously unpublished notes--a highly scholarly translation that has yet to be surpassed by anything published on the market since, possibly with the exception of Blyth. In the text, Linji quotes and references it throughout; most famously in the pithy instruction of "when hungry: eat, when tired: sleep".

More recently, I was asking Claude which Zen instructions in verse have yet to be translated and this one came up in conversation so I decided to devote some time to it.

In reality, Jeff Shore has translated the text in full though it's quality is poor as it represents neither the arguments Zan is making nor the import of the references contained therein. For example ,the above mentioned segment and the subtle reference to the 4 statements of Zen and the "Mind transmission" of Zen. While more research is needed, this text seems to be a contender for the earliest such reference in an indisputably Zen text.

Additionally, Sasaki has translated portions of the text quite poetically in her footnotes, the arguments being made aren't made explicit nor are the implications on Buddhist claims to be inheritors of the Zen tradition brought to the forefront.

This text is important to Zen students for several reasons.

1. It is aggressively anti-Buddhist in its rejection of doctrines of merit-cultivation, practice earning enlightenment, and denial of self.

2. It challenges the reader to make sense of the arguments for themselves. In other words, it doesn't demand you to believe anything Mingzan says, but rather, presents the Zen-enlightened mode of understanding reality and challenges you to examine it for yourself.

3. It raises themes and instructional tools which other masters would reference, make use of, and deconstruct throughout the next thousand years of Zen records. Zen students reading this poem would immediately notice how the language used and arguments made are typically used. Similar to Zhaozhou's "No", Mazu's "Mind is (not) Buddha" and Mingben's "Pines are not straight, brambles are not crooked, etc." situating Lazy Zan within the Zen tradition requires that the reader familiarize themself with Zen's critical engagement with history, tradition, and even its own revered figures.

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It is important to note that Mingzan has often been tied to Shenxiu's Buddhist "Northern School" through his supposed heir Puji. While I have been unable to find a specific source of where this myth emerged, it is safe to say it isn't from Zen history.

Supporting Facts:

Zen Masters including Mingzan reject the doctrinal foundation of Shenxiu's "Gradual Enlightenment through refinement" Buddhism.

There are no encounter dialogues involving "Northern School 2nd Patriarch" Puji; much less between Puji and Mingzan. This is important because unlike Buddhism and other religions, public interview is the undisputed practice of Zen.

Zen Masters are keen to reference and name-drop their family and distant cousins. Mingzan gets name-dropped and referenced. Puji does not.