u/TruthIsAntiMormon

Current LDS fervor/belief/message primacy that we are living in the "end times"?
▲ 18 r/mormon

Current LDS fervor/belief/message primacy that we are living in the "end times"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFcDfiyTzZU

Dan's video here is a response to a mainstream Christian social media peddler and simply due to the Bible having built in future apocalyptic and "end time" rhetoric, it's unfortunately "baked in" to the core beliefs.

LDS/Mormon theology of course adopts the same Biblical "end times" and adds its own flavors (Missouri "garden of eden" and New Jerusalem nonsense, patriarchal blessing prophecies of seeing the 2nd coming, mormon centric roles in the 2nd coming and milenium, etc.) but when it comes to "rhetoric" are the fires of "we're in the last hour, nay last minute" "Jesus is at the door today!" and "better have your food storage with some packs of cigarettes to trade to non-believers for their Goldbacks currency" type cultural beliefs still being peddled?

Said simply, what is the current "temperature" of Mormon "end times fear/warning messaging" both Officially but also, culturally from the faithful.

We still heavily in the "special conference anouncing we're heading back to Jackson County to coincide with G.C.!" rhetoric of both the hierarchy as well as lay membership or has it cooled to the degree that it's rare to have Joe/Jan Prepper opine in Gospel Doctrine as "And that's how we know we're in the end times!" or "All these are signs that the second coming is imminent!"

Dan makes clear in the video above that he does NOT believe we're in the "end times" or at the cusp of the 2nd coming and is tired of the fearmongering/anxiety inducing/prey on christian messaging about apocalypse/end time rhetoric.

So how does Mormonism/LDS Christianity compare as of late and the last decade or so?

For myself, it seems like although it's still core doctrine that the church has cooled on the hyperfocus messaging. There's still fearmongering but its more about losing faith and dwindling numbers and losing the spirit than "Outter Darkness awaits humanity just around the corner!" Judgement is NIGH!

u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 14 days ago
▲ 9 r/mormon

Additional evidence that the Book of Helaman wasn't ever to be called "Helaman" but "Book of Nephi" is because it literally says so in the Book of Helaman.

Bulding off of my previous post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1w4qnt2/the_book_of_helaman_was_never_intended_to_come/

I am again, extremely confident that Helaman was originally intended to be a "Book of Nephi" and most likely the "2nd Book of Nephi" and was intended to be more closely tied to what is currently 1st and 2nd Nephi (Lehi and the original Book of Nephi).

The reason is simple because that's what it actually says right in the Book of Helaman at the end of the original Chapter 1 (now chapter 2 in the modern version)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/original-manuscript-of-the-book-of-mormon-circa-12-april-1828-circa-1-july-1829/197

>Judges over the People of Ne[p]hi & behold in the end of t[his Book ye shall see that this Gaddianton] did prove the overthrow of yea almost the enti[re] des[truction of the People of Nephi beh]old I do C do not mean the end of the Book of Helaman [but I mean the end of the Book] of Nephi from which I have taken all the account w[hich I have written.

NOT plates of Nephi but "Book of Nephi".

This is also a PRIME example of Joseph Smith authorship in the actual text trying to fix problems by pantomiming/apeing who would later be called MORMON. There are many others as well where the Author of the Book of Mormon inserts his author commentary as a "yet to be named" character in order to try and bridge/fix, etc.

Also, additional evidence that these Books would have been closer to the Books of Lehi and Book of Nephi (2nd Nephi) or a continuation of them is that what was occurring as a setting was "The Land of Nephi" originally.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/printers-manuscript-of-the-book-of-mormon-circa-august-1829-circa-january-1830/367#x9cc80897-1bb8-460d-9453-2b3094267050

>Now it came to pass that the ninety & first year had passed away & it was <​was​> six hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem & it was in the year that La con Lachoneus was the chief Judge & the governor over the land of Nephi & the Son of Helaman had departed out of the land of Zarahemla giveing charge unto his Son Nephi which was his eldest Son concerning the plates of Brass & all the records which had been kept

The above is from the printer's manuscript meaning the scribe manuscript said the same and was only corrected for the printed book. This is also an introductory verse by Joseph to bridge his notes from the previous Book of Nephi to this Book of Nephi, timeframe, etc.

Also, the current "Book of Helaman" (would have been the original 2nd Book of Nephi) might have been planned to have started in the COMMENCEMENT of the Reign of the Judges then backdated 40 years:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/original-manuscript-of-the-book-of-mormon-circa-12-april-1828-circa-1-july-1829/193#x5919f780-344f-4286-88d4-9734d6d5bcb3

Probably much more that smarter people than I (or AI LLMs) will discover.

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u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 1 month ago
▲ 11 r/mormon

The Book of Helaman was never intended to come after Alma or be called "Helaman".

As many are already aware, I'm of the strong opinion that the Mosiah Priority is the jumping off point to how the Book of Mormon was authored.

However, I am of the further belief that the books were NOT authored sequentially and that Joseph had notes/outlines for various books, some of which were copied into the "Book Headings" of some of those books.

One specifically is THE BOOK OF HELAMAN

The current Book Heading that was supposedly engraved on the plates (similar to 1 Nephi) states:

>The Book of Helaman

>An account of the Nephites. Their wars and contentions, and their dissensions. And also the prophecies of many holy prophets, before the coming of Christ, according to the records of Helaman, who was the son of Helaman, and also according to the records of his sons, even down to the coming of Christ. And also many of the Lamanites are converted. An account of their conversion. An account of the righteousness of the Lamanites, and the wickedness and abominations of the Nephites, according to the record of Helaman and his sons, even down to the coming of Christ, which is called the book of Helaman, and so forth.

However, within the Book of Helaman is ANOTHER outline or book header (currently prefacing current chapter 7):

>The Prophecy of Nephi, the Son of Helaman—God threatens the people of Nephi that he will visit them in his anger, to their utter destruction except they repent of their wickedness. God smiteth the people of Nephi with pestilence; they repent and turn unto him. Samuel, a Lamanite, prophesies unto the Nephites.

Even still there's another book header supposedly enscribed on the plates prefacing Chapter 13:

>The prophecy of Samuel, the Lamanite, to the Nephites.

However, I'm of the opinion that the current Book of Helaman was originally to be called "The Book of Nephi" and was originally outlined to be a book that would have followed the original "The Book of Lehi" more or less along the line.

Why? Because the book header I think hints at it.

This is what I think the original in Joseph's outline was more or less:

>The Book of Nephi
An account of the Nephites. Their wars and contentions, and their dissensions. And also the prophecies of many holy prophets, before the coming of Christ, according to the records of Nephi, who was the son of Nephi/Lehi, and also according to the records of his sons, even down to the coming of Christ. And also many of the Lamanites are converted. An account of their conversion. An account of the righteousness of the Lamanites, and the wickedness and abominations of the Nephites, according to the record of Nephi and his sons, even down to the coming of Christ, which is called the book of Nephi, and so forth.

I believe the header to chapter 7 read somewhat:

>The Prophecy of Nephi, the Son of Nephi/Lehi—God threatens the people of Nephi that he will visit them in his anger, to their utter destruction except they repent of their wickedness. God smiteth the people of Nephi with pestilence; they repent and turn unto him. Samuel, a Lamanite, prophesies unto the Nephites.

There's an artifact of this IMHO in Helaman 7

Helaman 7

  1. [7] Oh, that I could have had my days in the days when my father Nephi first came out of the land of Jerusalem, that I could have joyed with him in the promised land; then were his people easy to be entreated, firm to keep the commandments of God, and slow to be led to do iniquity; and they were quick to hearken unto the words of the Lord --

But also says the very next chapter (new chapter division)

Helaman 8

  1. [22] Our father Lehi was driven out of Jerusalem because he testified of these things. Nephi also testified of these things, and also almost all of our fathers, even down to this time; yea, they have testified of the coming of Christ, and have looked forward, and have rejoiced in his day which is to come.

This doesn't say "our father" Nephi. It says "My father" but then says "our father Lehi" the next chapter. It also references the "promised land" which would be the Land of Lehi or Land of Nephi or ever confused Land of Nephi/Lehi which also is repeated as 2nd lands in Alma and also confused with the Land of Melek vs. Land of Mulek (there are two overlapping narratives that are pretending to be separate in geography and time).

Helaman 6 even appears specifically to attempt to draw that distinction:

Helaman 6

  1. [10] Now the land south was called Lehi and the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south.

There's also Cezoram which is reusing Zeezoram.

There's also these references to Zenock and Zenos and only one had their words retroactively put back into Nephi at the end of authorship.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mormon/mormon-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=zenock&restrict=All&size=First+100

Also Helaman copies or "apes" the use of Jeremiah:

Helaman 8

  1. [20] And behold, also Zenock, and also Ezias, and also Isaiah, and Jeremiah, (Jeremiah being that same prophet who testified of the destruction of Jerusalem) and now we know that Jerusalem was destroyed according to the words of Jeremiah. O then why not the Son of God come, according to his prophecy?

Which only ties back to

1 Nephi 5

  1. [13] And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

1 Nephi 7

  1. [14] For behold, the Spirit of the Lord ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have rejected the prophets, and Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land.

Also, when Joseph "aping Moroni" lists some history of faith he says:

[11] Wherefore, by faith was the law of Moses given. But in the gift of his Son hath God prepared a more excellent way; and it is by faith that it hath been fulfilled.

[12] For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.

[13] Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the prison to tumble to the earth.

[14] Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

[15] Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.

[16] Yea, and even all they who wrought miracles wrought them by faith, even those who were before Christ and also those who were after.

There's no mention of the Lehi/Nephi of Jerusalem being led by FAITH across the desert and sea to the promised land.

They are also OUT of order above in chronological sequence that has Moses before all of them, then Alma and Amulek, then Nephi/Lehi of 3rd Nephi, then back to Ammon.

Also, third Nephi is NOT called "Third Nephi" even in the extant Printer's Manuscript:

>—— The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi Which was the Son of Helaman & Helaman was the Son of Helaman which was the Son of Alma which was the Son of Alma being a decendant of Nephi which was the Son of Lehi which came out of Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah the king of Judah——

It's fascinating how this outline was authored to create a chronology.

If we look at the artifacts remaining in the extant book, I think it becomes clear there where multiple "books" outlined by Joseph that were hodgepodged and stitched together.

Helaman is also the only place outside of Omni, Words of Mormon and Mosiah that the name "Benjamin" appears (except in the original Ether 4:1 that said Benjamin originally) and it also appears as a "forgotten to be authored" statement by Benjamin which is another topic.

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u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 1 month ago
▲ 9 r/mormon

Additional Book of Mormon oddities (English anachronisms?)

When Joseph was dictating/authoring the Book of Mormon, he employed, especially in 1 Nephi and 2 Nephi a mental "check". He did the same in the "need to bridge to Mosiah" short books as well.

My guess was as he was dictating, he needed to keep the character's Point of View straight which isn't something actual variable real people would need to do or engage in IF there were actual people writing hundreds of years apart.

There is at least one problem with his approach and potentially more.

The first is the phrase "I, Nephi" from the first person.

The issue is that in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian (and even in the Hebrew Bible) people did not talk or write like this EXCEPT in Daniel which would not have been written before Lehi's family left Jerusalem.

Other than that, it's only found in the New Testament in Paul's letters as I, Paul.

The second is Joseph's repeated use of "My father, NAME" such as Lehi, etc.

Again, in the Old Testament, almost the entirety is in the David/Saul/Solomon writings and normally written as PROPERNAME, my father but sometimes the opposite.

What's interesting is the usage of Joseph in the Book of Mormon. He employed it very clearly in the Nephi books throughout in a "keep it straight".

Where it gets really interesting is the pattern Joseph might have revealed in his usage of both which seems to indicate a bit of "keeping the notes straight" from the Book of Lehi notes to now being used to rewrite them as the Book of Nephi and then later 1st Nephi and 2nd Nephi.

The original Nephi Chapter 1 (comprising 1 through 5 in the modern edition) really highlights Joseph's use of this.

From the beginning:

  1. [1] I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.
  2. [2] Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
  3. [4] For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.
  4. [5] Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people.

Then a little bit later:

  1. 16] And now I, Nephi, do not make a full account of the things which my father hath written, for he hath written many things which he saw in visions and in dreams; and he also hath written many things which he prophesied and spake unto his children, of which I shall not make a full account.
  2. [17] But I shall make an account of my proceedings in my days. Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands; wherefore, after I have abridged the record of my father then will I make an account of mine own life.
  3. [18] Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard

Then later...

  1. [1] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from speaking with the Lord, to the tent of my father.
  2. [7] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Then at the end of Chapter 1 (chapter 5 modern):

  1. [6] And after this manner of language did my father, Lehi, comfort my mother, Sariah, concerning us, while we journeyed in the wilderness up to the land of Jerusalem, to obtain the record of the Jews.
  2. [7] And when we had returned to the tent of my father, behold their joy was full, and my mother was comforted.
  3. [10] And after they had given thanks unto the God of Israel, my father, Lehi, took the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and he did search them from the beginning.
  4. [14] And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.
  5. [16] And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.

Now what's interesting is that the biggest groupings of "My father, Lehi" are at the beginning and end of Chapter 1 (or chapter 1 and chapter 5 of the modern versions).

After chapter 1 (or chapter 5 modern) there are only three other uses of "My father, Lehi" in the entirety of the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 7

  1. [1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.

1 Nephi 18

  1. [17] Now my father, Lehi, had said many things unto them, and also unto the sons of Ishmael; but, behold, they did breathe out much threatenings against anyone that should speak for me; and my parents being stricken in years, and having suffered much grief because of their children, they were brought down, yea, even upon their sick-beds.

THE SECOND BOOK OF NEPHI

2 Nephi 4

  1. [12] And it came to pass after my father, Lehi, had spoken unto all his household, according to the feelings of his heart and the Spirit of the Lord which was in him, he waxed old. And it came to pass that he died, and was buried.

In contrast, the term "I, Nephi" shows up throughout 1st and 2nd Nephi and even ONE instance in 3rd Nephi.

Of note is Joseph's usage of "And it came to pass that I, Nephi" which he used all over (and especially concentrated in the original 1 Nephi Chapter 5 (modern 16 and 17):

1 Nephi 16

  1. [4] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
  2. [7] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
  3. [22] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto complaining against the Lord their God.
  4. [23] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my father: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
  5. [28] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the faith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
  6. [30] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the directions which were given upon the ball.

1 Nephi 17

  1. [11] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.
  2. [23] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, spake unto them, saying: Do ye believe that our fathers, who were the children of Israel, would have been led away out of the hands of the Egyptians if they had not hearkened unto the words of the Lord?
  3. [49] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto them that they should murmur no more against their father; neither should they withhold their labor from me, for God had commanded me that I should build a ship.
  4. [52] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said many things unto my brethren, insomuch that they were confounded and could not contend against me; neither durst they lay their hands upon me nor touch me with their fingers, even for the space of many days.

What is also interesting is the last time Joseph uses "And it came to pass that I, Nephi" is in 2nd Nephi chapter 4 (new chapter 5) when he hands the narrative off to Jacob (sorry Joseph and the Josephites, you didn't make the final cut)

2 Nephi 5

  1. [17] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.
  2. [26] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests and teachers over the land of my people.

The last person to use it with a proper name is Jacob:

Jacob 7

  1. [26] And it came to pass that I, Jacob

After that, no other authors used the term "And it came to pass that I," followed by their proper name, EXCEPT one.

Mormon 3

  1. [11] And it came to pass that I, Mormon, did utterly refuse from this time forth to be a commander and a leader of this people, because of their wickedness and abomination.

Supposedly 1,000 years after Nephi.

Equally interesting is Joseph's usage of "My Father, PROPER NAME" which he uses in the Jacob through Enos "bridging" chapters, Mosiah and then again in Mormon, Alma.

Jarom 1

  1. [1] Now behold, I, Jarom, write a few words according to the commandment of my father, Enos, that our genealogy may be kept.

Omni 1

  1. [1] Behold, it came to pass that I, Omni, being commanded by my father, Jarom, that I should write somewhat upon these plates, to preserve our genealogy --

Mosiah 2

  1. [32] But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah.

Mosiah 29

  1. [13] Therefore, if it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if ye could have men for your kings who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people -- I say unto you, if this could always be the case then it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you.

Alma 5

  1. [3] I, Alma, having been consecrated by my father, Alma, to be a high priest over the church of God, he having power and authority from God to do these things, behold, I say unto you that he began to establish a church in the land which was in the borders of Nephi; yea, the land which was called the land of Mormon; yea, and he did baptize his brethren in the waters of Mormon
  2. [11] Behold, I can tell you -- did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?

One of the MOST interesting references (part of why I believe the later 3rd and 4th Nephi are tied to the later 1st and 2nd Nephi)

Helaman 7

  1. [7] Oh, that I could have had my days in the days when my father Nephi first came out of the land of Jerusalem, that I could have joyed with him in the promised land; then were his people easy to be entreated, firm to keep the commandments of God, and slow to be led to do iniquity; and they were quick to hearken unto the words of the Lord --

Mormon 8

  1. [1] Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.
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u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 1 month ago
▲ 26 r/u_TruthIsAntiMormon+1 crossposts

Methods and Motives: the modern Joseph Smith Polygamy denialist movement as sour wine in JS III old bottles.

Anyone interested in the modern movement advocating a denialst foundation to Joseph Smith's secret teachings and practice of polygamy should read the 40+ year old dialogue article below.

For those of us without faith based motivations, reasonigs or risk, it could have been written yesterday about the movement today.

For those in the modern movement, it's a mirror whether acknowledged or not.

Methods and Motives: Joseph Smith III's Opposition to Polygamy, 1860-90

u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 3 months ago
▲ 74 r/mormon

Reminder: Hyrum Smith confirmed there was a revelation regarding Polygamy in the Nauvoo City Council on June 8th convened a day after the Nauvoo Expositor made said revelation publicly known (June 7th) and RLDS Anti-Polygamist Leaders Ebeneezer Robinson and William Marks correlate it as well.

On June 7th the Nauvoo Expositor was published making public a previously private and unknown to some Revelation on Polyamy (Multiplicity of Wives):

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-expositor-7-june-1844/1

On June 8th the Nauvoo City Council was convened with a primary reason to talk about the Nauvoo Expositor they held in their hands and in which it claimed Joseph's Polygamy Revelation.

In that City Council meeting, talking about the revelation made public in the Nauvoo Expositor, Hyrum stood up and...

>Councillor, H. Smith, continued...—referred to the revelation, read to the High Council of the Church, which has caused so much talk about a multiplicity of wives; that said Revelation was in answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days, and had no reference to the present time.

This was published in the Church's own newspaper, the Nauvoo Neighbor on June 17th, 1844, literally 10 days after publishing of the Nauvoo Expositor and literally states

>In your last week’s paper I proposed giving your readers an account of the proceedings of the City Council, but time forbids any thing more than a brief SYNOPSIS of the PROCEEDINGS of the MUNICIPALITY of the City of Nauvoo, relative to the destruction of the press and fixtures of the “Nauvoo Expositor.”

>City Council, Regular Session) June 8th, 1844.)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revised-minutes-17-june-1844-as-published-in-nauvoo-neighbor/1

This contemporary source not only confirms Hyrum's knowledge and admittance of the revelation, it also has Hyrum corroborating as of June 8th 1844 that there WAS a polygamy revelation received in request to a "question" regarding the multiplicity of wives and read to the High Council of the Church previously (in 1843).

We have multiple sources from both the anti- (expositor) and pro side (all Brighamites) of the time confirming the polygamy revelation SEPARATELY and independently which as a conspiracy is a stupidity and absurdity to believe happened.

Beyond that, we have Anti-Polygamists who became leaders in the RLDS church who, until evidence forced them to pivot in the 20th Century, were honest enough to give testimony that Joseph did receive a Polygamy revelation, etc.

William Marks was Nauvoo Stake President, Municipal Alderman and Member of the Council of Fifty under Joseph Smith.

After Joseph's death William Marks joined the RLDS church and became a member of the First Presidency of the RLDS Church serving under Joseph Smith's son, Joseph III.

Willaim Marks stood before Joseph Smith III (Joseph's son) and all of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the RLDS church on May 1st, 1865 and said:

>“President [William] Marks said Brother Hyrum came to his place once and told him he did not believe in it and he was going to see Joseph about it and if he had a revelation on the subject he would believe it, and after that Hyrum read a revelation on it in the [Nauvoo] High Council and He [William] Marks felt it was not true but he saw the High Council received it.” 

He also confirmed it many other times as well (then later in life denied it very similarly to Emma's statements):

https://debunkingpolygamydenial.com/WilliamMarks/

Ebenezer Robinson as well was an avowed Anti-Polygamist who associated with Rigdon's sect post Joseph and even joined the RLDS for a time and Whitmerites, etc.

In 1875 Robinson and his wife were baptized members within the RLDS church and gave this affidavit held in the RLDS/CoC archives:

>To Whom it may concern:
We, Ebenezer Robinson and Angeline E. Robinson, husband and wife, hereby certify, that in the fall of 1843 Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph Smith came to our house in Nauvoo, Ill. and taught us the doctrine of polygamy. And I, the said Ebenezer Robinson, hereby further state that he gave me special instructions how I could manage the matter so as not to have it known to the public He also told us that while he had heretofore opposed the doctrine, he was wrong, and his brother Joseph was right; referring to his teaching it.
Ebenezer. Robinson
Angeline. E. Robinson” (Ebenezer and Angeline E. Robinson notarized affidavit, 29 December 1873, Community of Christ Library–Archives, emphasis added)

https://debunkingpolygamydenial.com/HyrumSmith/

Contemporaneous facts show Hyrum on June 8th admitted the existence of a Polygamy revelation.

Anti-Polygamists who knew Joseph and Hyrum after the death of both who even JOINED and LED the "polygamy denial" RLDS church gave testimony that Joseph received a revelation and Hyrum read it to the HC.

I have yet to see a copy of the "multiplicity of wives" revelation that Hyrum Smith referred that Joseph "received in response to question"s previously read to the HC as Hyrum confirmed on June 8th from the "joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd.

We have one revelation extant and copied across various people and also referred to in the Expositor which all corroborate one another entirely independently.

Until the "joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd can produce the actual revelation Hyrum talked about on June 8th which was read to the HC previously regarding the multiplicity of wives, they are failing to account for this contemporaneous confirmation of the revelation extant today and corroborated by at least three competing factions who were NOT working together to corroborate each other (laws, brighamites and anti-polgyamist RLDS above)

If "faith in Joseph Smith" is a stumbling block to allowing the facts to dictate the conclusion that Joseph SMith received a revelation regarding polygamy, preached and lived it in secret while lying about it publicly, then the problem isn't the facts and evidence, it's quite literally the "faith in Joseph Smith" that's the problem.

I recommend removing the stumbling block of faith and/or adjusting one's faith accordingly.

u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 3 months ago
▲ 28 r/mormon

Joseph's consistent use of rhetorical devices in his authored works: Book of Mormon, D&amp;C, Letters, etc. This needs a more scholarly paper written regarding it.

Joseph was fond of using rhetorical devices and he consistently used them in his authored works.

Furthermore, he employed them in a similar nature across his authored works.

His use of terms "suppose" and "else" highlight a few.

Below I provide a few examples from the Book of Mormon (that mimick the KJV bible):

>Behold, could ye suppose that ye could sit upon your thrones, and because of the exceeding goodness of God ye could do nothing and he would deliver you? Behold, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain. Do ye suppose that, because so many of your brethren have been killed it is because of their wickedness? I say unto you, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain;

and

>Or do ye suppose that the Lord will still deliver us, while we sit upon our thrones and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us? Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding? Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay.

and

>Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety? Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God.

and

>Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

and

>And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

and

>And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

and

>Behold I say unto you, do ye suppose that ye cannot worship God save it be in your synagogues only? And moreover, I would ask, do ye suppose that ye must not worship God only once in a week? I say unto you, it is well that ye are cast out of your synagogues, that ye may be humble, and that ye may learn wisdom;

and

>And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word? Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed

And many, many more.

In the D&C:

>Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing and lifting up thy heart for gladness? Or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide? Or canst thou be humble and meek, and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen.

(the "as a blind guide" is a little 19th Century nugget I particularly like)

>For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

and

>Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

In letters:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-oliver-cowdery-circa-9-april-1836/1

>If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th[e] latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy? And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?

and...

>Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.

reddit.com
u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 5 months ago