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Methods and Motives: the modern Joseph Smith Polygamy denialist movement as sour wine in JS III old bottles.
▲ 26 r/u_TruthIsAntiMormon+1 crossposts

Methods and Motives: the modern Joseph Smith Polygamy denialist movement as sour wine in JS III old bottles.

Anyone interested in the modern movement advocating a denialst foundation to Joseph Smith's secret teachings and practice of polygamy should read the 40+ year old dialogue article below.

For those of us without faith based motivations, reasonigs or risk, it could have been written yesterday about the movement today.

For those in the modern movement, it's a mirror whether acknowledged or not.

Methods and Motives: Joseph Smith III's Opposition to Polygamy, 1860-90

u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 2 days ago
▲ 74 r/mormon

Reminder: Hyrum Smith confirmed there was a revelation regarding Polygamy in the Nauvoo City Council on June 8th convened a day after the Nauvoo Expositor made said revelation publicly known (June 7th) and RLDS Anti-Polygamist Leaders Ebeneezer Robinson and William Marks correlate it as well.

On June 7th the Nauvoo Expositor was published making public a previously private and unknown to some Revelation on Polyamy (Multiplicity of Wives):

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-expositor-7-june-1844/1

On June 8th the Nauvoo City Council was convened with a primary reason to talk about the Nauvoo Expositor they held in their hands and in which it claimed Joseph's Polygamy Revelation.

In that City Council meeting, talking about the revelation made public in the Nauvoo Expositor, Hyrum stood up and...

>Councillor, H. Smith, continued...—referred to the revelation, read to the High Council of the Church, which has caused so much talk about a multiplicity of wives; that said Revelation was in answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days, and had no reference to the present time.

This was published in the Church's own newspaper, the Nauvoo Neighbor on June 17th, 1844, literally 10 days after publishing of the Nauvoo Expositor and literally states

>In your last week’s paper I proposed giving your readers an account of the proceedings of the City Council, but time forbids any thing more than a brief SYNOPSIS of the PROCEEDINGS of the MUNICIPALITY of the City of Nauvoo, relative to the destruction of the press and fixtures of the “Nauvoo Expositor.”

>City Council, Regular Session) June 8th, 1844.)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revised-minutes-17-june-1844-as-published-in-nauvoo-neighbor/1

This contemporary source not only confirms Hyrum's knowledge and admittance of the revelation, it also has Hyrum corroborating as of June 8th 1844 that there WAS a polygamy revelation received in request to a "question" regarding the multiplicity of wives and read to the High Council of the Church previously (in 1843).

We have multiple sources from both the anti- (expositor) and pro side (all Brighamites) of the time confirming the polygamy revelation SEPARATELY and independently which as a conspiracy is a stupidity and absurdity to believe happened.

Beyond that, we have Anti-Polygamists who became leaders in the RLDS church who, until evidence forced them to pivot in the 20th Century, were honest enough to give testimony that Joseph did receive a Polygamy revelation, etc.

William Marks was Nauvoo Stake President, Municipal Alderman and Member of the Council of Fifty under Joseph Smith.

After Joseph's death William Marks joined the RLDS church and became a member of the First Presidency of the RLDS Church serving under Joseph Smith's son, Joseph III.

Willaim Marks stood before Joseph Smith III (Joseph's son) and all of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the RLDS church on May 1st, 1865 and said:

>“President [William] Marks said Brother Hyrum came to his place once and told him he did not believe in it and he was going to see Joseph about it and if he had a revelation on the subject he would believe it, and after that Hyrum read a revelation on it in the [Nauvoo] High Council and He [William] Marks felt it was not true but he saw the High Council received it.” 

He also confirmed it many other times as well (then later in life denied it very similarly to Emma's statements):

https://debunkingpolygamydenial.com/WilliamMarks/

Ebenezer Robinson as well was an avowed Anti-Polygamist who associated with Rigdon's sect post Joseph and even joined the RLDS for a time and Whitmerites, etc.

In 1875 Robinson and his wife were baptized members within the RLDS church and gave this affidavit held in the RLDS/CoC archives:

>To Whom it may concern:
We, Ebenezer Robinson and Angeline E. Robinson, husband and wife, hereby certify, that in the fall of 1843 Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph Smith came to our house in Nauvoo, Ill. and taught us the doctrine of polygamy. And I, the said Ebenezer Robinson, hereby further state that he gave me special instructions how I could manage the matter so as not to have it known to the public He also told us that while he had heretofore opposed the doctrine, he was wrong, and his brother Joseph was right; referring to his teaching it.
Ebenezer. Robinson
Angeline. E. Robinson” (Ebenezer and Angeline E. Robinson notarized affidavit, 29 December 1873, Community of Christ Library–Archives, emphasis added)

https://debunkingpolygamydenial.com/HyrumSmith/

Contemporaneous facts show Hyrum on June 8th admitted the existence of a Polygamy revelation.

Anti-Polygamists who knew Joseph and Hyrum after the death of both who even JOINED and LED the "polygamy denial" RLDS church gave testimony that Joseph received a revelation and Hyrum read it to the HC.

I have yet to see a copy of the "multiplicity of wives" revelation that Hyrum Smith referred that Joseph "received in response to question"s previously read to the HC as Hyrum confirmed on June 8th from the "joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd.

We have one revelation extant and copied across various people and also referred to in the Expositor which all corroborate one another entirely independently.

Until the "joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd can produce the actual revelation Hyrum talked about on June 8th which was read to the HC previously regarding the multiplicity of wives, they are failing to account for this contemporaneous confirmation of the revelation extant today and corroborated by at least three competing factions who were NOT working together to corroborate each other (laws, brighamites and anti-polgyamist RLDS above)

If "faith in Joseph Smith" is a stumbling block to allowing the facts to dictate the conclusion that Joseph SMith received a revelation regarding polygamy, preached and lived it in secret while lying about it publicly, then the problem isn't the facts and evidence, it's quite literally the "faith in Joseph Smith" that's the problem.

I recommend removing the stumbling block of faith and/or adjusting one's faith accordingly.

u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 2 days ago
▲ 28 r/mormon

Joseph's consistent use of rhetorical devices in his authored works: Book of Mormon, D&C, Letters, etc. This needs a more scholarly paper written regarding it.

Joseph was fond of using rhetorical devices and he consistently used them in his authored works.

Furthermore, he employed them in a similar nature across his authored works.

His use of terms "suppose" and "else" highlight a few.

Below I provide a few examples from the Book of Mormon (that mimick the KJV bible):

>Behold, could ye suppose that ye could sit upon your thrones, and because of the exceeding goodness of God ye could do nothing and he would deliver you? Behold, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain. Do ye suppose that, because so many of your brethren have been killed it is because of their wickedness? I say unto you, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain;

and

>Or do ye suppose that the Lord will still deliver us, while we sit upon our thrones and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us? Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding? Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay.

and

>Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety? Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God.

and

>Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

and

>And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

and

>And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

and

>Behold I say unto you, do ye suppose that ye cannot worship God save it be in your synagogues only? And moreover, I would ask, do ye suppose that ye must not worship God only once in a week? I say unto you, it is well that ye are cast out of your synagogues, that ye may be humble, and that ye may learn wisdom;

and

>And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word? Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed

And many, many more.

In the D&C:

>Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing and lifting up thy heart for gladness? Or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide? Or canst thou be humble and meek, and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen.

(the "as a blind guide" is a little 19th Century nugget I particularly like)

>For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

and

>Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

In letters:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-oliver-cowdery-circa-9-april-1836/1

>If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th[e] latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy? And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?

and...

>Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.

reddit.com
u/TruthIsAntiMormon — 1 month ago