r/mormon

Elder Rasband recently gave a talk that was covered in the Church News. Many were evidently surprised to hear him say things like the earth was split apart during the great flood and that US was separated from Europe, etc., at that time (yes, I'm paraphrasing). For me it was surprising only because it seemed like it was basically the same talk that Holland published in the Ensign in June 1976. A quick comparison (all points in order in both talks):

Rasband 2026: >In the Garden of Eden — “in what today we consider the heartland of America” — God the Father and His Beloved Son visited Adam and Eve and taught them the gospel, said Elder Rasband.

Holland (1976): >America is such a place, but of course it wasn’t always called America nor has it always been identified by a distinctive continental shape. Originally it was simply a portion of that large, single land mass which God in his creative process called “Earth” and which, when completed, was pronounced “good.” (Gen. 1:10.) Whatever its name and geographical configuration, however, it was from the beginning a land of divinity as well as a land of destiny.

>The choicest part of this earthly creation was a garden “eastward in Eden” where God placed our first parents, Adam and Eve. This resplendent place filled with paradisiacal glory was located on that part of the land mass where the city Zion, or the New Jerusalem of the earth’s last days, would eventually be built. (See D&C 57:1–3, D&C 84:1–3; and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:74.) After Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, located in what is now Daviess County, Missouri. In that region this first family lived out their days, tilling the soil, tending the flocks, offering sacrifices, and learning the gospel of Jesus Christ from on high. There Adam prophesied concerning all the families of the earth and, three years before his death, called together the righteous remnant of his posterity and bestowed upon them his last blessing. The Lord appeared unto this faithful group and Adam’s family rose up “and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.

>“And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.

>“And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.” (D&C 107:54–56.)

Rasband 2026: >Their posterity eventually became so wicked that the Lord cleansed the earth with water. The surface ”fractured into great continents separated by oceans, all to protect what was destined to be the promised land, ‘which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people’ (Ether 2:7).”

Holland 1976: >Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” (Moses 7:33) that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water. Thus, the “everlasting decree” (Ether 2:10) was first taught that he who will not obey the Lord in righteousness will be swept from his sacred land. The lesson would be tragically retaught in dispensations yet to come.

>Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.

Rasband 2026: >Some time later, the Lord brought the Jaredites to this hallowed land and declared, “Whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them” (Ether 2:8).

Holland 1976: >With care and selectivity, the Lord began almost at once to repeople the promised land. The Jaredites came first, with stories of the great flood fresh in their memories and the Lord’s solemn declaration ringing in their ears: “Whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.” (Ether 2:8.) >Despite such counsel, however, the Jaredite civilization steadily degenerated into a violent society which forced a man to keep “the hilt of his sword in his right hand” (Ether 14:2)—until finally he “ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow.” (Ether 15:26.)

Rasband 2026: >Although initially righteous, the Jaredites eventually became exceedingly wicked, destroying the nation. This pattern is seen throughout the Book of Mormon. After Lehi and his family were brought to the promised land, their descendants cycled through righteousness and wickedness for a thousand years, ultimately ending in the destruction of the people because of wickedness.

>“The family of Adam and Eve, the Jaredites and the Nephites could not sustain willing ‘the good of the other,’” said Elder Rasband, referencing the definition of “love” from St. Thomas Aquinas. “God did place them in the promised land, the perfect setting, but the evil one crept in and took over.”

Holland 1976: >But even as the last light flickered on Jaredite civilization, a bold new sun rose to illuminate a thousand years of Nephite-Lamanite experience on the same soil. Despite periods of war and rebellion, these people nevertheless had great moments of power and purity, including the personal ministry of the resurrected Christ, who walked and talked and prayed with these New World inhabitants for three indescribable days. There in the meridian of time the land enjoyed three generations of peace and perfection, which it would not know again until the Master’s millennial reign.

>But the lessons of history, if not learned well, are certain to be taught again, and a lone father with his son lived to see the self-destruction of these people of promise. The Nephite-Lamanite morality descended from “sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics” (Morm. 1:19) into rape, murder, and cannibalism (see Moro. 9:7–10), creating a vision so repulsive that it was “impossible for the tongue to describe, or for man to write,” a scene of greater wickedness than had ever been seen “even among all the house of Israel” (Morm. 4:11, 12). A thousand years after God had given such choice land to their fathers and a thousand years before he would attempt to do it again, Mormon wrote to his son Moroni:

>“O the depravity of my people! They are without order and without mercy. … >“They delight in everything save that which is good; and the suffering of our women and our children … doth exceed everything. … >“Thou knowest that they are without principle, and past feeling. … >“Behold, my son, I cannot recommend them unto God lest he should smite me.” (Moro. 9:18–20.) >This favored branch allowed to run over the wall had reached that forewarned “fulness of iniquity” and was dwindling into disorder, darkness, and death.

Rasband: >In a 1775 letter, Washington wrote: “A kind of destiny ... has thrown me upon this service. I shall hope that my undertaking of it is designed to answer some good purpose.”

>That “good purpose,” said Elder Rasband, was the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In 1820, “the Restoration was set in motion” after God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared in vision and spoke to Joseph Smith.

>Of the U.S., Elder Rasband said: “Here, our Lord intended for liberty to take hold so that agency might thrive. Here, the gospel would put down roots and then branch out with truths to bless millions. By divine design, it has always been so.”

Holland: >“[Joseph] grew up toward adolescence just like the new land. He fitted it. He was young, clean, unspoiled—a lad without a past, kneeling in a grove. This pristine land—this innocent young man—and thus the Lord reached out and kept his promise. He established his conditions over centuries; you see, God has time. His plan made it possible for the holy priesthood and the Church to be restored upon the earth—the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ—but only in America. …

>“The purpose of America was to provide a setting wherein that was possible. All else takes its power from that one great, central purpose.” (Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 54.)

It's not a 1:1 parallel, but it's the same narrative with the same key elements and it feels a bit recycled to me. And yes, this evidently happens whenever the US celebrated 200 or 250 years, so a bit predictable, but in this case when so many other church narratives have changed or at least evolved a bit, I was a bit surprised to find this one intact. Thoughts?

Would this dress work with the new garments

My GF really likes this dress her friend wore to a 4th of July party. She is about to go on a mission and so getting endowed soon. I'd like to buy it for her but she worries it might not be garments friendly. Her friend in the picture is not endowed. Can sisters comment on this?

Anyone interested in the modern movement advocating a denialst foundation to Joseph Smith's secret teachings and practice of polygamy should read the 40+ year old dialogue article below.

For those of us without faith based motivations, reasonigs or risk, it could have been written yesterday about the movement today.

For those in the modern movement, it's a mirror whether acknowledged or not.

Methods and Motives: Joseph Smith III's Opposition to Polygamy, 1860-90

Hayden Carroll follows the Jacob Hansen approach to debating religion. They both have stated that they won’t debate an atheist about Mormonism. They are only comfortable defending Mormonism if you’ve pre-supposed there is a God and God magic. Then they will argue that the magical God created this religion claims of Mormonism should be believed by Christians because the Bible too has wild God magic in it.

In this clip you see Hayden is debating theism vs atheism with an ex-Mormon, Kolby Reddish. He expresses concern that Kolby assumes Hayden as a Mormon would be willing to discuss the specific beliefs about God that Hayden holds - the God of Mormonism that Hayden presumably believes.

He says that it makes no sense to debate Mormonism with an atheist because of course Mormonism is “bonkers” and “kookoo” to an atheist.

So Mormonism can’t be defended or justified to an atheist who as Kolby says is just looking for evidence? Does that mean there really is no evidence for Mormonism?

Here is a link to the full episode on Mormonism with the Murph.

https://youtu.be/Ko5kcv4T23c

On June 7th the Nauvoo Expositor was published making public a previously private and unknown to some Revelation on Polyamy (Multiplicity of Wives):

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-expositor-7-june-1844/1

On June 8th the Nauvoo City Council was convened with a primary reason to talk about the Nauvoo Expositor they held in their hands and in which it claimed Joseph's Polygamy Revelation.

In that City Council meeting, talking about the revelation made public in the Nauvoo Expositor, Hyrum stood up and...

>Councillor, H. Smith, continued...—referred to the revelation, read to the High Council of the Church, which has caused so much talk about a multiplicity of wives; that said Revelation was in answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days, and had no reference to the present time.

This was published in the Church's own newspaper, the Nauvoo Neighbor on June 17th, 1844, literally 10 days after publishing of the Nauvoo Expositor and literally states

>In your last week’s paper I proposed giving your readers an account of the proceedings of the City Council, but time forbids any thing more than a brief SYNOPSIS of the PROCEEDINGS of the MUNICIPALITY of the City of Nauvoo, relative to the destruction of the press and fixtures of the “Nauvoo Expositor.”

>City Council, Regular Session) June 8th, 1844.)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revised-minutes-17-june-1844-as-published-in-nauvoo-neighbor/1

This contemporary source not only confirms Hyrum's knowledge and admittance of the revelation, it also has Hyrum corroborating as of June 8th 1844 that there WAS a polygamy revelation received in request to a "question" regarding the multiplicity of wives and read to the High Council of the Church previously (in 1843).

We have multiple sources from both the anti- (expositor) and pro side (all Brighamites) of the time confirming the polygamy revelation SEPARATELY and independently which as a conspiracy is a stupidity and absurdity to believe happened.

Beyond that, we have Anti-Polygamists who became leaders in the RLDS church who, until evidence forced them to pivot in the 20th Century, were honest enough to give testimony that Joseph did receive a Polygamy revelation, etc.

William Marks was Nauvoo Stake President, Municipal Alderman and Member of the Council of Fifty under Joseph Smith.

After Joseph's death William Marks joined the RLDS church and became a member of the First Presidency of the RLDS Church serving under Joseph Smith's son, Joseph III.

Willaim Marks stood before Joseph Smith III (Joseph's son) and all of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the RLDS church on May 1st, 1865 and said:

>“President [William] Marks said Brother Hyrum came to his place once and told him he did not believe in it and he was going to see Joseph about it and if he had a revelation on the subject he would believe it, and after that Hyrum read a revelation on it in the [Nauvoo] High Council and He [William] Marks felt it was not true but he saw the High Council received it.” 

He also confirmed it many other times as well (then later in life denied it very similarly to Emma's statements):

https://debunkingpolygamydenial.com/WilliamMarks/

Ebenezer Robinson as well was an avowed Anti-Polygamist who associated with Rigdon's sect post Joseph and even joined the RLDS for a time and Whitmerites, etc.

In 1875 Robinson and his wife were baptized members within the RLDS church and gave this affidavit held in the RLDS/CoC archives:

>To Whom it may concern:
We, Ebenezer Robinson and Angeline E. Robinson, husband and wife, hereby certify, that in the fall of 1843 Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph Smith came to our house in Nauvoo, Ill. and taught us the doctrine of polygamy. And I, the said Ebenezer Robinson, hereby further state that he gave me special instructions how I could manage the matter so as not to have it known to the public He also told us that while he had heretofore opposed the doctrine, he was wrong, and his brother Joseph was right; referring to his teaching it.
Ebenezer. Robinson
Angeline. E. Robinson” (Ebenezer and Angeline E. Robinson notarized affidavit, 29 December 1873, Community of Christ Library–Archives, emphasis added)

https://debunkingpolygamydenial.com/HyrumSmith/

Contemporaneous facts show Hyrum on June 8th admitted the existence of a Polygamy revelation.

Anti-Polygamists who knew Joseph and Hyrum after the death of both who even JOINED and LED the "polygamy denial" RLDS church gave testimony that Joseph received a revelation and Hyrum read it to the HC.

I have yet to see a copy of the "multiplicity of wives" revelation that Hyrum Smith referred that Joseph "received in response to question"s previously read to the HC as Hyrum confirmed on June 8th from the "joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd.

We have one revelation extant and copied across various people and also referred to in the Expositor which all corroborate one another entirely independently.

Until the "joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd can produce the actual revelation Hyrum talked about on June 8th which was read to the HC previously regarding the multiplicity of wives, they are failing to account for this contemporaneous confirmation of the revelation extant today and corroborated by at least three competing factions who were NOT working together to corroborate each other (laws, brighamites and anti-polgyamist RLDS above)

If "faith in Joseph Smith" is a stumbling block to allowing the facts to dictate the conclusion that Joseph SMith received a revelation regarding polygamy, preached and lived it in secret while lying about it publicly, then the problem isn't the facts and evidence, it's quite literally the "faith in Joseph Smith" that's the problem.

I recommend removing the stumbling block of faith and/or adjusting one's faith accordingly.

I’m premiering my new video today, 3 July 2026, at 6:00 pm Mountain Time. This video argues that several “Adamic” or “pure language” characters associated with W. W. Phelps and Joseph Smith’s 1835 Egyptian Alphabet project are more plausibly connected to early modern shorthand traditions than to the Masonic/pigpen cipher proposed by William Schryver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xkX3M6iIJM

This Sunday is supposed to be a fast in gratitude for religious liberty.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2026/07/02/invitation-to-unified-fast-for-religious-liberty-on-sunday-july-5/

That's weird, isn't it?

The tradition is that you fast in penance/mourning and you feast for celebration/gratitude. Hence, Thanksgiving dinner. Imagine a Thanksgiving where we don't eat or drink and instead stare hungrily at each other around the board.

Also, what's your take on the state of religious liberty in the U.S. and abroad? Is it a time for fasting or feasting?