u/BUH-ThomasTheDank

I have a story about Nelson's prophetic abilities (or lack thereof) that I thought this sub would enjoy.

I served in Brazil 2018-2020. Nevermind the lack of prophetic foresight during COVID that abruptly ended my mission and uprooted my life trajectory - this isn't about that.

In the São Paulo MTC (or CTM as they call it) there is a plaque on the wall with the dedicatory prayer (in Portuguese) given by Nelson during his apostle days.

Every time we walked by, some MTC worker would be extremely eager to tell us the story about that plaque, in a hushed and dramatic tone.

"He came here to Brazil and gave all his opening remarks in English. Then he stopped, looked, around the room, and said, 'I sense the faith of everyone in this room is sufficient enough to witness a miracle'. Then he gave the entire dedicatory prayer (it's long) in perfect, native Portuguese."

And not just the workers. Every MTC bishop, counselor, and presidency member had a similar story.

It really set up me up to expect at least the occasional miracle in my mission. Of course, no such thing happened, despite taking L after L for my faith in the hostile environment and third-world accommodations, and poor mission healthcare that let the open sores on my face blister continuously in the hot, humid, equatorial sun (had scars from it even years later).

Then, about 15 months into my mission, we tuned into a Brazil-wide podcast for the N-man himself.

Everyone was really excited for what he was going to say, and there were even rumors that he was going to give part of his talk in Portuguese.

Well, he did... kind of.

What he actually did was bear 2-3 sentences of testimony in some of the most broken, american-accent Portuguese I had ever heard - like something I could have done week 3 in the MTC.

I felt disappointed, but the whole stake center erupted in celebration.

"He really is a prophet of God!"

"His Portuguese was flawless!"

"I am so glad to have witnessed a manifestation of the gift of tongues!"

I was bewildered at the sheer collective stupidity, or delusion that was going on.

The same members and missionaries that had previously criticized my Portuguese (which was fluent but admittedly with an accent) were just laying on the sauce for Nelson's rehearsed, 20-second "I know that X!"

Meanwhile I'm busting my ass 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to serve these faltering wards way under the cutoff point and nothing I do is remotely miraculous, including actually knowing northeast Portuguese (which even some Brazilians in the south have a hard time understanding).

The leader worship is real, but that wasn't the eye-opening part. The big thing was that I no longer trusted secondhand stories of miracles.

After all, I had just watched dozens of my closest friends twist an unmiraculous event into one of the best things they had ever seen. How was I supposed to trust my MTC leaders that they had seen anything at all? How was I supposed to trust anyone when it comes to miracles when possibly a majority in this church are delusional and WILL find a way to twist anything into a miracle.

The leaders let it happen too. They have every chance to correct people on stuff like this but won't do it if it's faith-promoting. Then when someone brings it up as a shelf-breaker they can just blame the followers for being over-zealous and "not knowing that God works in small and simple ways."

Can I PROVE he didn't deliver a perfect prayer? No.

Do I think that if miracles happened as frequently as members claim they do, or even if they happen at all, that I would have seen some indication of that firsthand? Yes.

Looking back, I got tired of trying to convince myself that there were two sets of footprints in the sand.

Anyways, may he rot in hell, RMN.

Jacob Hansen likes to tear down evangelicals by using Mormonism as a mirror for their irrational claims and contradictions. It's funny, because Mormonism is such a good parody of what other Christians believe, they don't know how to defend themselves. "You have your witnesses? Well, our witnesses are even better!"

But what Mormon apologists fail to consider, is that other denominations, notably Catholicism, can do the same thing. Catholicism exposes many holes in Mormon dogma, and these are a few I have been thinking of since my visit to the Vatican.

Note: I'm not Catholic, I'm exmo. I just find it disappointing how well Catholic apologists like Council of Trent are performing against Mormons. They seem to lack any self-awareness needed to really land some good zingers.

Petrine Succession: There is a large stone in the Vatican (above) that shows an unbroken line of authority from Peter to today, so how can there be a great apostasy? Think about it, the apostles were already ordaining new apostles, what are the chances they all forget to do it again before 11 of them die out over several years? Does Linus not count as a bishop in Rome? Didn't he get the priesthood? He seems to have believed so.

Furthermore, if there really were some authority that was not transmitted to Linus in virtue of his office, how can Brigham Young be an acceptable successor to Joseph Smith? Historians have shown he most likely did not have all of the keys given him from Joseph and Hyrum. Are we in an apostasy now, if the early church was in apostasy then?

Developing Doctrine: If you ask a Catholic why their doctrine changed, they will most likely expound on "developing doctrine", the catholic idea that doctrine does not change, but is only revealed.

Where have I heard that before? *wink* *wink*

I remember every missionary book from the 90s, especially Talmage had some problems with Catholic changes to dogma. Jacok Hansen thinks it means they are a totally different church now.

But Mormonism has changed a WHOLE LOT MORE in just a tenth of the time. You could fit the Catholic changes on a few pages, I doubt you could fit all of Mormonism's in an entire novel. Pretty impressive for a 2'000 year old church if you ask me.

I also remember every time the great apostasy was brought up when I was a kid, changes to ordinances were specifically mentioned. "The Catholics corrupted baptism by removing immersion." WHO'S THE ORDINANCE CHANGER NOW? Literally everything has changed about the endowment! The dress, the instructions, the format, the presentation, the wording, even which covenants you partake in. Five major changes just in the last decade. Mormonism is a FAR worse offender when it comes to this.

Prophetic Infallibility: Who said it? "Prophets/Popes are just men, and can be wrong. Statements should only be taken as the word of God when speaking under certain, strict conditions." DING DING! They both say that!

Mormons say they don't believe in infallible statements, but it doesn't matter because in practice everyone acts like infallibility applies. When's the last time you saw someone publicly disagree with a GA and NOT get exed?

Just a reminder that there are NO HARD CHECKS on the president of the corporation. He could excommunicate everyone tomorrow and you wouldn't be able to do anything. No legal or ecclesiastical recourse for powerful men that go astray.

Creeds and Commitees: I was taught that Christian creeds are abominable, because a "group of men cannot simply get together and decide doctrine." And yet, that's how it works. That's how it has ALWAYS worked.

Joseph and his buddies would always get together and debate doctrines before he got a "revelation". Every member you know says "Once the united voice of the brethren speaks, that is doctrine." Council schmouncil.

At least we used to have a democratic flair to changes by allowing a (not so fair) vote of approval. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened in over 100 years (just like a similar Italy-based church!)

Cover the Earth: Mormons are proud of the growth of their church. If you grew up in Mordor, you probably implicitly believed that "wow, we are everyone" and got a smathering of "we'll bring the whole world his truth." Never mind they're not even growing as fast as 7th day adventists right now.

UH, HELLO?!!! ONE BILLION MEMBER CHURCH CALLING IN! They already filled the whole earth bub. If wealth or membership is any indication of truth, you already got beat 1000x over, 1500 years ago. And they actually got to run their theocracy for more than one generation.

Comparison concluded. As a side note, you could fit 4 SLC temples in the interior of Saint Peter's Basilica. Easily more impressive than all the temples I've been in combined.

God killed his favorite son as a sacrifice but you're still expected to discern between thousands of religions without evidence so you can pick the one demands the most. Who wrote this shit. Also, if you were born between 80-1830 AD, get fucked.