I use the word Mormon to refer to that church. People get super bent out of shape and repeatedly ask me to call them by their full name. They say it is out of respect. I am not doing that. Why is Mormon such a bad word or is this person just being an entitled ass?
I have a hard time understanding how someone can know that Joseph Smith married underage girls, believe God commanded him to do it, and still consider themselves a moral person.
If you know Joseph Smith married children and justify that in ANY way. YOU AREN’T A MORAL PERSON!!!
Emily Brontë was forced to compose the single functional draft of her seminal title Wuthering Heights in complete secrecy during the occasional spare hour of her typically demanding daily schedule living in the rugged moors of Victorian England. If we take into consideration the plagiarized Bible verses that make up roughly 15% of the Book of Mormon, her ~120,000-word masterpiece is over half the length of this ostensible second testament of Christ. While technically stretched over 9 calendar months, if we average her contributions at between 2-3 hours a day (a generous estimate), her one-and-only novel can be estimated to have taken a little more than 65 working days to accomplish - the same as Joseph Smith as alleged by the Church. She managed to write this masterpiece with no evidence of second drafts, no notes discovered by her family, no wealthy sponsors like Martin Harris, no scribes from well-to-do families like the Whitmers, and no formal education outside basic reading and writing (not to mention no excessive use of filler phrases like "it came to pass")... she seriously outperformed poor little Joseph.
If we reject the relevance of formal education and focus on finding comparable production windows for intricate and internally consistent stories, there are even more parallels.
Stephen King wrote the Running Man in about a week. Its word count is approximated to be anywhere between ~80,000 and ~105,000 words, or ~30-50% of the volume of the Book of Mormon, and it took him less than 10% of the time that it took Joseph Smith to write everything out. If he kept up the pace, he would have written at least three full-length Books of Mormon.
L. Ron Hubbard (also the founder of a cult) wrote his Mission Earth series which sits at 1.2 million words. He produced it all in a single working draft in less than 8 months. This is ~5x the volume of the Book of Mormon in only ~2.5x the amount of time. It was later nominated for a Hugo Award.
Ray Bradbury had no college education, and he wrote Fahrenheit 451 in about an 18-day period, again in a single draft. He averaged over ~500 words per hour, almost double Joseph Smith's assessed spoken rate.
Clearly, it is possible for humans to extemporaneously compose large novels at alarming speeds. But the church pretends the only explanation for Joseph's writing speed is divine power.
Welp... I started stepping away from the church about 2.5 years ago, when I asked to be released as bishop in my ward. There was a lot that went into it and this post isn't that story.
Today, I found myself getting my cannabis card renewed vs. going to church, and I realized I have really hit another level of post-Mormon. Hahahaha... Also... I'm loving it.
What were the poignant moments where you realized this church no longer had the hold over you that it once did? (extra credit for funny stories, but all are welcome)
I've been bombarded with all kinds of these ads. I've never seen a "church" advertise so much on social media.
I still indoctrinate my kids on Sundays, but the curriculum is different.
I don't post.....ever. but here is a gift. Bednar is in town doing a Q and A through text that goes to his personal iPad on the pulpit, right now. 385-449-2000.
I’m on vacation at the beach with my family and ALL of the adults have been complaining about how hot it is this weekend. They don’t really want to go outside and do anything.
I’ve been surprised at just how much they’re complaining because I’ve honestly felt fine, it’s hot but there’s always a nice breeze to cool me down. Then I realized, I’m the only one here not wearing garments! They’re all dying because they have an extra layer on. I don’t think any of them have the new and improved tank tops though, so maybe they need to invest in those.
I feel free.
I love the ocean breeze!
Hey y'all,
So this has been something sitting in my brain for quite some time. Like personally I like more more dark, urban and sword & sorcery type fantasy. But I've noticed high fantasy is huge with not just Mormons but Conservative Christians as well. If it's not Disney (which Disney adults are their own problem); Harry Potter, LotR, Chronicles of Narnia and let's not forget the author that's held above all other authors in Utah; Brandon Sanderson. Now full disclosure, I'm not hating on him (he's a good writer); I hate how overhyped he is in Utah, but I digress.
Is fantasy so big in Utah because they aren't allowed to watch R-rated movies?? Just curious, and if you're reading this on a lovely Sunday. Thank god you're not a church and have a blessed day.
I feel dumb for not thinking about it earlier. PIMO, in sacrament someone was visiting from another country and said they didn't have AC there in their chapels. And I realized, the church can totally afford AC in every single building in the world. Imagine how the church could be a refuge from the heat for potential converts but they don't want to.
To say nothing of the "America exists for Mormonism" doctrine, when was the last time you heard it reinforced that Adam literally lived in Missouri? He also seems to teach that the flood caused the breakup of Pangaea?
On one hand, this is vintage Mormonism at it's best, but it's weirdly specific and anti-science for 2026, especially when it seemed they were trying to distance themselves from some of the more bizarre truth claims.
Update: link fixed. I did misspell it initially, so for now the article is still up. Whether it remains that way officially will be interesting.
She has not once ever owned up the abuse she heaped upon me as a kid. I'm late diagnosed Autistic, and as part of the processing of that reality, a lot of stuff has fallen into place in my childhood.
The reality is she needed me as a prop to show how good she was. The list is long, but one example would be how I'd be elbowed in the ribs as a kid/teen until I got up to bear my testimony on fast Sunday.
She's not once admitted ANYTHING in my upbringing was problematic. I don't think she's capable of doing so at this point. She turns 70 this year, and still talks to me and my siblings like we are children.
I know she has her own shit from an abusive childhood to deal with, and until then simply can't compute that she did anything harmful to me.
I will not be attending her funeral.
Hi for context I'm 18f. I'm not a very active member anymore just because I was able to beg my boss to schedule my work on the same times that our church meetings are. None of the ladies and relief society ever really liked me and all of them sit as far away from me as possible the only person I'll sit with me or even talk to me is my mom. A couple years ago my mom accidentally revealed in one of her testimonies that I was gay and all the adult women have kind of avoided me since then. There was this one older lady who was a convert and she always sat in the back with me when everyone would avoid me. She is also the only one who texts me and asks me how I'm doing. So I'm at work today and my mom calls me freaking out because said older woman got in a fight with the bishop on fast and testimony meeting. We got a new bishop and my old Bishop was actually pretty nice but this new bishop is a little strange. So my friend she was giving a talk and the bishop stopped her in the middle and told her that what she was talking about was inappropriate and not for church. Mind you all she was talking about is how God made her love herself dispite her internalized racism. She's the only black woman in our entire congregation. Deficient called her out publicly and scolded her in front of everyone which she responded to negatively. Apparently the woman who gave a talk right before her was talking about her miscarriage so it was obvious that dark subject matter wasn't the problem. But because of the fight she refuses to come back to church which is fine it's good for her that she's seeing the life but now when I'm dragged to Church events that don't go inside with my work schedule I'm going to be all alone again. I know it's really selfish but I'm going to miss her.
We are in a small town for the 4th. Everyone and their dog (family reunion) went to church so we came to the first hour. I left in tears today.
Some thoughts I sent in a text to my sister:
So it was all about religious freedom today, I don’t know that I’ve ever been to a more patriotic town. Which is Fun but also when it starts bleeding into religion and how The LDS church sees themselves, it made me feel really uncomfortable and kind of mad and sad. A lot about the idea of
America being created SO THAT the church could Be restored and our country is so
Important because of that etc etc.
But the big thing that really had me genuinely get tears in my eyes (not in a good way) was this woman talking about going to see this exhibit near Provo/salt lake where they had a depiction of lehi’s dream. And she said it was so so beautiful to see all the different people/cultures going to the tree of life. And then there was the great and spacious building. And the People were laughing/mocking etc. so she said she got to go inside of the great and spacious building to see what it looked like (at this point she started crying) and she said all of the people in the building were in chains, bound up. She got so emotional about how she really hadn’t thought about the fact that Those in the great and spacious building are chained up and miserable because of their choices.
And I had this moment of being like, oh my gosh, I am in the great and spacious building. Like, the people I learned about and the people I taught on the mission about this stuff… Like, I’m in there now. I am the person that is bound and chained up and trapped so to speak. It like really affected me today and I was just so pissed anyway whatever I just feel insanely alone and I want so badly to tell everyone in this family that we have left the church.
I'll change the flair if needed.
Anyways, I'm still technically a Christian. My mom's calling is to pick hymns for church. I've noticed she often complains about the bishop changing them without telling her. Today she was especially upset. She chose patriotic songs like she was told, but one of the songs was changed to Star-spangled Banner. I just want to know if this is something that others have seen? I saw a text from another female member that just said (paraphrased) "the bishop wouldn't do that."
Seriously, has anyone else experienced this?
When I was 11, we were living in Japan on Misawa Air Base. A local Japanese family wanted me to come stay the weekend with them.
I was super excited about it. I packed all my things, they pull up in front of our house. I say bye to my family and hop in their car.
As we start driving away, I remembered that I am a really picky eater. They probably were going to want me to eat sushi.
The cold grip of utter fear squeezes my little stomach.
This was the most dangerous situation I’ve ever been in as kid.
So what does a little Mormon boy do? He prays.
I prayed hard.
The hardest anyone has ever prayed.
No man has ever come close.
Not even 14 year old Joseph in the Sacred Grove.
“Heavenly Father! Please! I need your help! If you really love me, you will spare me! I promise I’ll be good! I can’t eat Sushi!”
Just as I was praying my heart out, the mother turns to me and asks, “Do you like McDonald’s?”
“YES!”
“Well we can go have McDonald’s for dinner, then we’ll go to the grocery store and you can pick anything you’d like to eat for the weekend.”
THANK YOU, GOD!
I KNEW YOU WERE REAL!
YOU REALLY DO LOVE ME!
These were exactly the kind of experiences you shared in church and especially in testimony meetings.
A testimony meeting happens once a month, usually on the first Sunday. People fast and pray and then rather than having assigned speakers, it’s an open mic night.
Anyone from the congregation can get up and bear their testimony in front of everyone.
Little kids are always encouraged to go on up and say things like, “I know Heavenwy Fatha wuvs me. I wuv my famiwee. In da name of Jeesas Cwyst, Amen!” (Typing that out, sounded more like Elmer Fudd, but you get what I was going for.)
A lot of people share their miracles and blessings. So many stories about lost keys, purses and wallets being found as soon as they prayed for help.
I told that McDonald’s story in testimony meetings and used it on my mission. I wasn’t faking it. Everyone laughs.
The more extreme certainty I used, the more people loved it.
I could feel it.
In every other area of life, being completely certain about something you have zero evidence for is a red flag.
People organize interventions for that.
But in church we call it a testimony and shove a microphone in your face.
This trained me to notice coincidences every day of my life and frame them as revelation or lessons from God.
So if the average human lives for 30,000 days.
And something has a 1/1000 chance of happening, throughout your life you’ll experience it around 30 times.
Now add in everything else with better odds and your list starts growing fast.
I claimed some coincidences as messages from God.
My brother claims all coincidences as messages from God.
And that gap, makes all the difference.
There are never any coincidences in his life. God is always sending him messages.
“I was thinking of a song and when I walked into the store, they were playing it on the speakers! God was telling me that he knows what I’m thinking!”
He uses the same logic and pattern-matching to also believe in flat earth, lizard people, aliens, any conspiracy you can probably think of. He’s on board.
It makes sense though, if God is always sending him messages, then God is probably controlling his social media feed. So there is a reason Nazis keep showing up while he scrolls TikTok.
Once he started sharing his antisemitic views is when the rest of my family realized this was becoming a serious issue.
“How can he believe this stuff?!”
“It’s so obvious none of THAT is real!”
We tried talking to him, but we couldn’t convince him that these things weren’t true.
I started showing him videos debunking flat earth and how the holocaust was real.
Nothing works.
Why can’t he see the logic? Not every coincidence means something!
It’s not like he grew up in an organization that incentivized him into thinking that every little thing has a deeper meaning behind it… right?
Who has the right to tell him that these Instagram Reels aren’t being put in front of him as special things God needs him to know?
He has told me, “I think the prophets and apostles know this stuff is true. But most members aren’t ready to accept it yet.”
The church can’t fix this.
This isn’t just a side effect, this is the main effect. The church expects that we’ll have our own intellectual guardrails.
But in a radical religious person’s eyes, they think moderates aren’t taking religion seriously enough.
How can a bishop tell a member they can’t receive direct revelation from God through their microwave?
“The Lord only communicates through church approved appliances.”
There is absolutely no way the church can tell someone how to receive and interpret their own personal revelations.
As long as you got SOME kind of revelation pointing you to the church doors, then that works!
The problem is that still leaves plenty of room for people to become extreme conspiracy theorists.
What the church hopes they learn, is how to be more tactful with revelations.
If our microwave member instead phrases their revelation as, “When heating up my chicken, this reminded me that the Lord does similar things to make us feel a burning in our bosom.”
That’s the kind of metaphor you hear from the highest ranking members of the church.
But it’s still just as crazy.
You can’t expect people to question their conspiracy beliefs without also questioning their church beliefs.
It’s all tied together for them.
Plus, how much weirder is it to get revelation from a microwave than a rock inside a hat?
The only real way out is to question your beliefs. To leave room for pure coincidence. To learn how probability actually works.
Those aren’t things the church can hand members struggling with extreme beliefs.
Because those methods don’t stop at flat earth, aliens, and antisemitism.
They come for everything.
They teach you how to think critically about what you believe.
Once you pull that thread, you can’t control where it goes.
I pulled it.
It can be very destabilizing.
But every tug is worth it.
And today, I actually love sushi.
TL;DR
When I was a kid I prayed harder than any human in history to avoid eating sushi while staying with a Japanese family. God answered my prayer when the family took me out to McDonald's.
I was trained by the church that every coincidence was actually revelation and blessings from god. When you bare testimony about these coincidences people respond more positively when you sound more certain, and that reinforces this behavior.
When something has a 1/1,000 chance of happening once a day of your life, you can have that happen 30 different times over the average lifespan. Crazy coincidences are actually pretty common.
My brother was raised in the same environment and he views every coincidence as a message from god. He also now believes Flat Earth, Lizard People, and now antisemitic content in his social media feeds.
I've heard my brother say he thinks the prophets and apostles know these conspiracies are true, but the Mormons aren't ready to hear it yet.
The church can't help people like him because the same critical thinking skills needed to disbelieve these conspiracy theories are the same ones that threaten the church's authority.
For my whole life the church has had a pretty consistent feeling/vibe. Examples
- Fairly calm/reserved speaking tones in meetings
- Patriotic law abiding people
- Leaders portrayed (real or not) as humble servants
- Revelation is a personal quiet experience not to be overshared
It seems that each of these and more were completely different in the early church
- Raucous speaking in tongues meetings
- Constantly at odds with local and federal governments
- Leaders were demigods
- Visions were common and widely discussed
My question. Was there a concerted shift in the image from JS BY days to the current feeling? Or was it just natural over the generations? Who were the big contributors?
It boils down to this one question: can fasting override God's will?
If it does, then fasting is more powerful than God.
If it doesn't, then it is unnecessary, and God being petty.