u/WonderfulRutabaga615

Indo-Scythians

I haven't seen much discussion about this but I think some of them were L657. And they did leave quite a big footprint.

So, starting off:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

Notice that most of the South Asians east of the Indus (i.e, not Pashtun) are actually from way further in India, often South and Southwest India. There is one branch which is in Haryana/Rajasthan:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT78161/

Which is fascinating, but it splits off from a line that's also in South India.

Obviously this is because the Indo-Scythians set up kingdoms across the subcontinent, particularly in the southwest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythian_Kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Satraps

The northern kingdom:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Satraps

But we don't see a lot of the northern lineages in consumer testing today, at least not as many as from the southwest. Which is perhaps not entirely surprising considering how successful those kingdoms were and the ensuing population boom.

It's interesting to note that even though we know when the Indo-Scythian kingdoms were established (well into the Iron Age), if you look at the branching points of their lines, some are branching early Iron Age or even late Bronze Age. These branches split up in Central Asia and then came grouped together into South Asia.

I'd wager that branching points with non-South Asians that are in the Iron Age are almost a dead giveaway, if the additional historical context is there, for Indo-Scythians. And you see plenty of these in R-L657 (often with Chinese/Kazakh/Kyrgyz/Tajik/etc). However, this is all dependent on how accurate the age estimation is.

From the limited results we have, it seems like an awful lot of the L657 lines are candidates for an Iron Age dispersal into South Asia. Curious as to others' thoughts?

Also, I believe I've found an Indo-Scythian branch here in J2b2-M241 (under M241>Z2432>Z2443>Y978):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y958/

There are three Iron Age Saka samples under this branch visible here:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Z8330/tree (This is J-Y978, J-Z8300 is J-Y958)

There is a Bronze Age BMAC from Turkmenistan (I7472), Iron Age Saka from Xinjiang (Caishichang 1-2, who was found next to an R-L657 grave!), and two more Iron Age Sakas from Turkmenistan (I25913, I5091).

The branch the two Turkmenistan Sakas come off of, J-FTG27149, has a cluster found in Portuguese Azores (so, likely via Goa). There's a bunch of other Goans in other branches here as well, more than we've found in R-Z2124 to date actually. That alone (multiple Iron Age Saka genomes plus the closest South Asian relatives being upper class/mercantile Goans) is a smoking gun. And that too without the more recent Iron Age TMRCA branching points

The next major split (J-Z8316) has Chinese, Tajik, and Arab users. The two Pakistani Punjabi close relatives are Awan if anyone's curious. The subclade J-FT19403 is found in a Pakistani Pashtun (who claims a recent Afghan paternal ancestor) and then Arabs.

The other Indian samples prefixed with ERR are Vellalar. There's 3 of them.

So in this one line, it looks like a connection to both the Western and Northern Satraps. I don't think the Pashtun/Arab line was a migrant back out of India, though it's possible. But they neatly split up at 3100ybp into South Indian, Punjabi, and Afghan/Arab branches.

So this was a local South Central Asian BMAC lineage that got absorbed by Sakas and then spread around a bit.

But looking at this is a clue for what to look out for in other branches. And I'm seeing R-L657 branches with TMRCA of as recent as 2800ybp between Chinese, South Asians and Arabs. They were there the entire time right under our noses, but everyone just assumed they were completely South Asian from the Bronze Age.

I'm in J-M241 so I've been following the tree's growth for years and I remember in the early days of the YFull tree over 10 years ago, there was only J-Y960 where this branch is now and everyone thought it was a neolithic expansion into India.

EDIT:

Here's an L657 example, a candidate based on age estimates:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16494/

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y16494/story

https://www.theytree.com/tree/R-Y16494

In this case, FTDNA's TMRCA estimate is closer to YFull's and both are more recent than 1000 BCE. You can also view Group Time Tree from the R1a group projects.

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u/WonderfulRutabaga615 — 5 days ago

Revisiting R1a-L657

Based off of finding L657 in an Iron Age Saka from Xinjiang and in a random European or two (including an ancient sample from ~500 BCE Spain), it seems less likely that L657 mutated in South Asia and likely just experienced the "starburst" explosion-like founder effect some time after entering South Asia.

Also, we find hardly any L657 in ancient South Asian DNA from Swat. We did find some Y40 and Z2124. The Z2124 likely from later Saka migrations.

So this lends credence to the theory that the L657 carrying group didn't slow down until it reached northwestern India.

Predecessors of L657 were also found:

  • Nepluyevsky: A sample tested positive for R1a-Y3

  • Xinjiang - R1a-Y2 from Bronze Age was found (Akbari 2026). Right next to a Z2123 sample. They were basically 100% Steppe MLBA (Andronovo) autosomally.

There is a ton of L657 found in China now. Both on YFull and on the Chinese site especially:

https://www.theytree.com/tree/R-L657

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

Some are Hui or Uyghurs from branches that may be suspected Saka/Scythian-era branches (TMRCA branching points in the Iron Age), or even Silk Road/Mongol-era, but there are even Han Chinese from (thus far) standalone branches from 3700+ybp.

So clearly, for whatever reason, L657 has had a very eastern spread which is why it seemed so sparse outside of South Asia until now. It has some strong relationship with the area that is now Western China. It is found in Kyrgyz and Kazakh samples too. Even a Tibetan.

This area (Central and East Asia) is very underrepresented and I think in the future, maybe another 10-20 years, we'll see many more results turn up from those regions.

What we still do not know is which group from the Andronovo horizon in particular is the one in which it mutated and which carried it into India and what route they took. The IAMC (Inner Asian Mountain Corridor) seems like a good bet.

It also seems like all the Steppe lineages were slightly jumbled up in one big melting pot. Y40 is perhaps the best example of this.

But I think we can put to bed the idea that L657 formed in South Asia. Or that it was only spread during the Bronze Age. There are clear Iron Age (Saka-type) branching points on the tree. I don't know if we can take the age estimates literally but the latest YFull update shows R-Y16494 with an Iron Age TMRCA of 2800ybp and hosting Chinese (Hui/Dungan), Emirati, and South Asians. Go up a branch or two and at 3300ybp you have other Chinese, Tibetan and Kyrgyz.

We are seeing almost no branches joining South Asians and East Asians after the Iron Age. If we do, those would undoubtedly be due to the Silk Road (Sogdians) and Mongol Empire. Perhaps some of the isolated samples will turn into those eventually as more people get tested. But right now, it looks like these diverged mostly in the Bronze Age and a few in the Iron Age.

Also clearly the Steppe herders absorbed BMAC and did not wipe them out. A lot of BMAC-era lineages suddenly experience Steppe-mediated spread after sitting idly in one spot for thousands of years. There's enough samples now on YFull/TheYTree/FTDNA's Block tree that you can see the same pattern playing out (Bronze Age vs Iron Age branching points).

u/WonderfulRutabaga615 — 1 month ago

Try these source pops for G25

Run as many South Asians as you can. Unscaled coordinates.

a_India_ArchaicGhost,-0.004566666667,-0.02226666667,-0.05709259259,0.05761481481,-0.03952222222,0.03717037037,-0.05575555556,-0.005251851852,-0.0004407407407,0.006481481481,0.05435185185,-0.02276296296,-0.02533333333,0.03445555556,-0.01904444444,-0.0922037037,-0.1802185185,-0.01980740741,0.05102222222,-0.07927037037,0.02207407407,-0.07912962963,-0.07927777778,-0.007396296296,0.07021851852
b_India_ANI-ShahrISokhta_BA2:I8728_enhanced,0.003,-0.008,-0.0477,0.038,-0.0315,0.0247,0.0004,0.003,0.0173,0.0111,-0.0031,0.0033,-0.0046,0.0051,0.0016,0.0033,0.0054,0.0058,-0.0011,0.0002,0.0035,-0.0071,-0.0007,-0.0013,-0.0059
c_India_ASI-Paniya,0.0004562,-0.0172688,-0.0500312,0.04395,-0.0151875,0.0189,-0.0029438,0.0074438,0.0447,0.032125,0.0032375,0.0001938,-0.0026125,0.0111062,-0.0178437,-0.0225812,0.00965,-0.0001812,-0.0026312,0.0246438,0.0057812,0.0115438,-0.0083375,0.0062188,-0.0066125
d_Levant_Natufian,0.0018,0.0129,-0.0104,-0.0438,0.0088,-0.027,-0.0076,-0.0112,0.0502,-0.0025,0.0185,-0.0138,0.0468,-7.00E-04,0.0149,0.0217,-0.0097,0.007,-0.0168,0.034,-0.0034,-0.0021,-0.0097,-0.0053,0.0098
e_Iran_Chl_SehGabi,0.00712,0.01152,-0.02736,-0.01704,-0.0218,-0.00412,0.00268,-0.0032,-0.02306,-0.00988,2.00E-04,0.00088,-0.00078,-0.00024,0.00172,0.01332,-0.00218,0.00296,0.007,-0.01176,0.00518,-0.00454,-0.0025,-0.01228,0.00538
f_Iran_N_GanjDareh,0.00378,0.00664,-0.0407,0.00172,-0.04028,0.00874,0.00658,0.00012,-0.0399,-0.02978,-0.002,-0.00108,0.00362,-0.0057,0.02354,0.04282,-0.00446,0.00598,0.01146,-0.02618,0.00614,-0.0243,-0.00886,-0.03218,0.01916
g_CentralAsia_C_Geoksyur,0.0070267,0.0076267,-0.03034,0.0073,-0.0347667,0.0101133,0.0050733,-0.00292,-0.0394733,-0.0287933,-0.00166,-0.0003533,-0.00254,-0.00904,0.0178467,0.0225133,-0.0053667,0.0033867,0.0041933,-0.01718,-0.0013667,-0.0117667,-0.00138,-0.0183467,0.0081667
h_CentralAsia_TKM_Gonur_BA_1,0.0069833,0.0077833,-0.02955,0.0025417,-0.0320417,0.0077167,0.0032417,-0.0025417,-0.0310667,-0.0223167,-0.001875,0.0014583,-0.0034083,-0.004775,0.0135,0.0194917,-0.004025,0,0.0038,-0.0187583,-0.002275,-0.010675,-0.0011417,-0.0133,0.0086583
i_CentralAsia_ANE_AG3,0.0084,-0.0017,0.0219,0.0714,-0.0292,0.0161,-0.0264,-0.0351,-0.0165,-0.0532,0.0307,-0.0068,0.0149,-0.0537,0.015,0.0154,-0.0106,0.003,-0.0034,-0.0021,-0.0298,0.0123,0.0112,0.0069,-0.005
j_Steppe_MLBA_Sintashta,0.01106,0.0114833,0.0152333,0.0243467,0.0036833,0.0104333,0.0024767,0.00189,-0.00852,-0.0155133,-0.00142,0.0008133,-0.0014733,-0.0154267,0.0168567,0.00939,-0.0038433,0.0002667,-0.00028,-0.00027,-0.00472,0.0014733,0.00217,0.00575,-0.0030567
k_EastAsian_Ulchi,0.00255,-0.04356,0.02181,-0.01084,-0.02117,-0.01539,0.00469,0.00594,0.00571,0.00966,-0.01329,0.00175,-0.00146,0.00034,-0.00652,-0.0052,0.00098,0.00768,0.01773,0.01181,0.0149,-0.03157,-0.01081,0.00659,-0.00451
l_EastAsian_Malay,0.0011,-0.038,-0.01912,-0.00864,0.03972,0.01944,-0.00126,-0.00314,-0.00544,-0.0086,0.03586,0.00442,-0.00488,0.00168,0.00532,0.00096,-0.00402,-0.00012,0.00214,0.00178,-0.00774,-0.00404,-0.00744,-0.0022,0.00062
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u/WonderfulRutabaga615 — 3 months ago