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TLDR

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Raya Lucaria appears to prefer the study of naturally occurring cosmic events. Attempts to investigate, reproduce or transcend certain aspects are forbidden or discouraged.

Carian culture appears much more comfortable with artificiality. Artificial beings are even shown having high ranking positions within or friendship by the royals.

The Nox are a blatant expression of the link between the moon and artificiality. They had their own Black Moon that was lost / fractured (indicated by the Memory Stones) and created the Silver Tears in an attempt to create their own lord.

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INTRODUCTION

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In my last long form I said that a clear distinction exists between the treatment of artificial life between Raya Lucaria, the Carian Royal Family and the Nox so I wanted to explore that a bit. I’m less concerned with artificial life itself here and more with the factions philosophies and how that may uncover some information.

This is formatted weirdly as I started with a list commenting on items or dialogue directly and then shifted back to my normal style. Apologies, but I haven’t got the mental energy to go back over the section and redo it.

A lot of this is personal interpretation, so I’ll be interested to hear alternative views! I do think there’s a really strong association with the moon and artificiality, and I’m hope at least some of this might be useful.

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I - THE ACADEMY OF RAYA LUCARIA

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A

Glintstone is the amber of the cosmos*… It should not be forgotten, that* glintstone sorcery is the study of the stars, and the life therein. A fact lost on most sorcerers, these days... - Sellen

(She tells us the nature of Glintstone as “amber”, much like the crystallised sap of a tree)

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B

I, too, am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. - Ymir

(While a potentially unreliable narrator, this seems to tell us the Academy’s version of an origin myth)

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C

Thought to be the founding glintstone sorcery. The glimpse of the primeval current that the astrologer saw became real, and the stars' amber rained down on this land. - Founding Rain of Stars

(The primeval current manifests as a stream of energy that falls down from space, presumably seeding life or Glintstone)

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D

When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster*, and upon seeing it,* he too was broken*. -* Stars of Ruin

(I don’t believe the “great star cluster” seen was the One Great itself, but is instead a symbolic representation of the creation of a universe born from fracture)

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E

Fires a tremendous comet in a torrent akin to the distant starry expanse, the place said to be the origin of glintstone. When Azur glimpsed into the primeval current, he saw darkness. He was left both bewitched and fearful of the abyss.* *- Comet Azure

(Seeing nothing scared Azur. Thematically, this seems to reference isolation from the whole)

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F

Ah, then you have seen Master Azur. Master Azur was a founding glintstone sorcerer, and my first teacher. A stern judge of men, but he must have seen something in you. You make us both proud. We can speak more later, my apprentice.

(Azur taught Sellen)

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G

The primeval current is a forbidden tradition of glintstone sorcery. To those who cleave to its teachings, the act of collecting sorcerers to fashion them into the seeds of stars is but another path of scientific inquiry. - Graven Mass Talisman

(Sellen becomes a Graven Mass, an artificial gestalt being, the extreme opposite of isolation)

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H

Metal Greatshield painted with a peering cuckoo. Carried by the enchanted knights sworn to the academy. Boasting high magic damage negation, this shield is used to hunt down mages. “Our enemy is none other than Caria itself.” - Cuckoo Greatshield

(The Academy eventually turned against the Moon focused Carian royal family)

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I

The Knights of the Cuckoos do declare. Behold, thy defiled blood*. Unlike any humor that flows in our grand realm. -* Albinauric Pot

(The Knights of the Cuckoo, employed by Raya Lucaria, use the blood clots of Albinauric’s to craft offensive pots)

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POSSIBLE CONNECTIONS
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These points form the basis for my interpretation of how the Academy views artificial life.

A shows a crossover in themes, terminology and presentation with the metaphysics of the Golden Order. “Glintstone is the amber of the cosmos” while amber itself is crystallised tree resin, providing a thematic connection to life having a natural origin.

B, C, D and E align well thematically with the idea of life having a clearly defined origin, presenting what amounts to an origin myth.

(Complete aside here - but I’ve just realised that the Golden Order doesn’t actually have a creation myth that we’re specifically told of in game… weird.)

E, F and G take this further, showing that at least some sorcerers [were perhaps fearful of nothingness and isolation so] sought a unification of flesh which lead to the creation of Graven Masses - artificial gestalt beings.

H shows that opinions on the Carian’s shifted at some stage, with the Academy viewing them as a threat dangerous enough to be fought against. This lead to the hiring of mercenary’s, infighting, isolation and the almost complete desolation of the institution.

I shows that Academy troops used artificial blood gathered from artificial life to create pots that were used offensively in the battle against Caria.

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THOUGHTS
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The Karolos and Olivinus Conspectuses are the oldest of the Academy, founded by Azur and Lusat respectively. As such, I believe the principle of pursuing knowledge through the research of natural life is one central to the Academy - even if the more disturbingly esoteric findings are seemingly denied or ignored, with practitioners of fringe theories expelled.

This expulsion of ideology that produces aberrations lines up with the Cuckoo Knight views of Albinaurics. It’s a potentially weak connection that as we’re relying on hired guns sharing the views of their employers, but one that does share the same stance that artificiality is wrong.

I feel as though we can see an example of environmental storytelling in the collection of large Living Jars seen on the way up to the Red Wolf of Radagon and smaller versions off the beaten path up to Renalla. I believe that this indicates (in a thematic sense, at least) that the Carian’s were more interested in artificial life than the Academy as a whole.

Its culture seems built around service, kinship, family, mysticism and fate instead of scholarly pursuit. Through this lens, an Albinauric’s lineage or origin could become less important than the role they serve.

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II - THE CARIAN ROYAL FAMILY

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This is first highlighted by Pidia, whose design and item drops are Albinauric in nature and whose “superior” is Carian. The localisation states his title as “Carian Servant”, but the Japanese isn’t explicit in who Pidia serves opting to just give him the title…

召使********いのピディ - Pidia, the Servant

… instead of something (apparently) more direct, like…

カーリアの従者ピディ - Pidia, the Carian Vassal

… or…

カーリアの召使いピディ - Pidia, the Carian Servant

All Google searches, so may be incorrect. The real issue with using Pidia as a crutch to support this is that he hides away and almost certainly uses a puppet to communicate with both Ranni and ourselves. Even the Village of the Albinauric’s is located beneath Carian territory, evoking a feeling of “out of sight, out of mind” in both cases.

However, Loretta and Gaius show us that at least some Albinauric’s were probably accepted for what they were, provided they had a use.

As a previous Royal Knight under the direct service of the Carian’s, Loretta’s lineage was probably known. She also holds the Silver Mirrorshield, something that specifically mentions a rumour about her being an Albinauric. I do accept that discovery of this fact may have been what forced her to leave and seek sanctuary under Miquella, however I find the fact that there was a “rumour” to suggest that some people knew.

Gaius is a little difficult to rest on as I can’t find anything that directly states his allegiance was to Caria before Messmer. However, we do know that his Albanauric nature wasn’t something stated to have been a rumour (like Lorreta’s was), and that he did have a friendly rivalry with Radahn in their youth special enough to have produced a sorcery (Blades of Stone). From this, we can infer that he was a Carian knight or was at least within that social sphere.

His armour, patterned after fallen seeds, could be interpreted as a “cruel joke” through this lens as the greaves themselves state. We obviously don’t know where Gaius got his armour from, but we do know he learnt gravity sorcery alongside Radahn. We know that they learnt these techniques in Sellia, and we find Raya Lucarian sorcerers there.

While this doesn’t constitute confirmation, I like to think the symbology here points to the origin of his armour being Raya Lucaria.

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THOUGHTS
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Looking at the two factions side by side, the idea that the Academy turned on Renalla as a direct result of Radagon leaving and her loosing control or becoming sad could be a little more complex. While that’s a valid reading, it seems likely that the Academy also had misgivings based on the royal families ideology;

“Metal Greatshield painted with a peering cuckoo. Carried by the enchanted knights sworn to the academy. Boasting high magic damage negation, this shield is used to hunt down mages. Our enemy is none other than Caria itself.”

“The Knights of the Cuckoos do declare. Behold, thy defiled blood*. Unlike any humor that flows in our grand realm.”*

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III - SELLIA

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If I’m asserting that Raya Lucaria is anti-artificial life, then why would Gaius be given a place to study within Sellia? Isn’t it a Raya Lucaria outpost? Well… no. Its position as the home of Night and Gravity Sorceries sets it apart as having a distinctly different view than the Academy, while this post by u/Moonless_the_Fool shows us the potential for a conflict between Sellia and Raya Lucaria.

Interestingly, the notion of the Carian’s being more accepting of artificial life may actually be bolstered by some of the enemies we find there - members of the Lazuli conspectus. The Lazuli Glintstone Crown tells us;

“Scholars of the Lazuli Conspectus study Carian sorceries - a heterodox pursuit that views the moon as equal to the stars.”

A “heterodox” is something that goes against the normality of an institution and is discouraged without being totally rejected. This conspectus is far more aligned more with the royal family’s mystical teachings than the scholarship pursued by their peers - something this comment explores a lot more than I will here (shout out to u/RexCantankerous for their observations).

We can also see members of Karolos, Olivinus and Twinsage here. The first two are perhaps an example of practitioners of fringe theories being expelled (especially as we find Lusat and his staff within Sellian territory, along with Azure suffering the same fate elsewhere), while the Twinsage Glintstone Crown tells us;

“Scholars of the Twinsage Conspectus were the elites of the academy, permitted to study and excel in sorceries of all kinds.”

Perhaps some dabbled in affairs unbecoming of a scholar? While the moons importance was seemingly debated within the Academy, it wasn’t entirely rejected like the Primeval Current. Maybe Sellia, at least in its current state, represents the resting place of these heterodoxies and fringe pursuits.

But beyond all of this guff (that I’m hoping explores what the town represents now and provides a pivot into the next section), Sellia is also associated with the Nox.

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III - THE MOON

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If Raya Lucaria views artificial life as an aberration and the Carian’s accept it, the next logical progression is a civilisation that embraces it. We obviously find this in the Nox. Exploring artificial life in detail here wouldn’t excite anyone, but these factions do all have differing opinions on moons and artificial life which fascinates me.

Rennala, a woman with her own moon who rebirths many of her followers into “sweetings” that lack the use of their legs and memories. While these aren’t specifically said to be artificial lifeforms, the fact there are clear parallels between them and Albinaurics while she’s locked away birthing them, all following a civil war within the Academy feels important.

Ranni is a spirit inhabiting a doll with her own moon, providing another narrative connection between the moon and artificiality.

I find the potential symbolic reading of Loretta’s placement in Caria Manor interesting because in the real world, the moon doesn’t generate light but reflects it. Similarly, artificial life could be considered a reflection of natural life. A summon of Loretta defending the Moongazing Grounds, a huge pool of water meant to reflect the light from the moon, that leads directly to the now artificial Ranni is a powerful image.

The Nox created artificial lifeforms in the form of Silver Tears. Silver is a colour that is sometimes culturally associated in game with the moon (especially in Carian circles).

One reading of the Silver Mirrorshield alongside the Ripple Blade is that the Albinaurics were born from a drop of dew. This reminds me of how the Mimic Tear ripples as it drops down and assumes our form, and also of the Raya Lucarian view on things (I - A; while sap and dew are distinct, the botanical references are what interest me).

Finally - there is a stronger thematic link between the moon and artificiality involving Renalla and the Nox that doesn’t prove anything mechanically and may be obvious, but I think is interesting enough to state outright. She’s the “Queen of the Full Moon”, rebirthing people using the core of a substance created by the Nox that resembles something the developer has once previously associated with the moon.

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I think four items really encapsulate this position in game without needing to explicitly reference and discuss Bloodborne or Quicksilver, which is where I started. The items are;

“Core of a creature of mimicry known as a silver tear. As much a substance as it is a living organism.” - the very item used is moon coloured and blurs the line between naturally occurring life and artificiality.

“The Silver Tear makes mockery of life, reborn again and again into imitation.” - artificial life is a mockery of natural life and can only imitate, never become.

“The Knights of the Cuckoos do declare. Behold, thy defiled blood. Unlike any humor that flows in our grand realm.” - Raya Lucarian forces held the view that Albinauric’s are defiled by the very nature of their blood.

"Albinaurics are lifeforms made by human hands. Thus, many believe them to live impure lives, untouched by the Erdtree's grace.” - Albinaurics are specifically stated to be artificial via said blood, coloured silver indicating a potential thematic connection to the moon.

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IV - ENDING THOUGHTS

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Moons are associated with artificial life and in the end, Raya Lucaria weren't fans of either.

Some of these are admittedly a lot looser or more symbolic than others, but I’ve found this fascinating to muse on regardless.

If you have any other examples, feel free to add them and I’ll edit the post.

——

The Elden Ring was shattered.

The One Great was fractured.

We shatter runes in our hand to gain their strength.

The Black Moon of the Nox was “lost”, with fragments of itself still remaining.

Faram Azula is crumbling (and its ruins can be used to make useful items).

Placidusax has missing heads.

Marika’s hammer is shattered.

Alexander is shattered at the end of his quest.

Living Jars are shattered at the base of Minor Erdtree’s.

Miquella fragments himself.

As does Ranni, although only once.

Miquella shatters his Great Rune.

Ranni steals a fragment of the Rune of Death.

Godwyn’s presence / influence is distributed within Deathroot.

The Sword Monument in Caelid says Radahn protected Sellia and stands ready to “shatter the stars” (Japanese says that he “crushes” the stars).

The Shattered Stone talisman.

The Crystallians and their sorceries.

The Crucible and the Erdtree.

Malenia’s children.

Smithing Stones.

The Shaman are mutilated (broken) during jarring.

The Ruptured Crystal Tear.

The Lands Between itself, potentially broken apart when the Shadowlands were sealed.

Erdtree Burial, where bodies are absorbed into roots and energy directed elsewhere via grace.

Gargoyles are broken and cracked.

Marika and Radagon are shattered.

The Tarnished, a broken / scattered people.

The Merchants, the same.

Fleeting Microcosm (Conjures an image of a microcosm at a foe's feet that pulses with a single wave before disappearing in a burst)

Malenia’s needle, broken and remade

——

It’s made me have a new appreciation for the game and its meaning, to be honest. Everything breaks but can still be remade, reformed or re-contextualised. “The end” doesn’t have to be the end.

“There’s beauty in that, is there not?”

I haven’t put much thought into this, but it’s bugging me.

She could be keeping him around because allies are in short supply and his skills are useful, but that’s doesn’t really fit Ranni’s character. Her inner circle is less “people she likes” and more a coalition assembled around her objective.

Blaidd and Iji are effectively family to her. She addresses them directly when we beat the Baleful Shadow, but not Seluvis - the emotional investment received is distinctly different. Even his role as a teacher (Preceptor) seems weird to me. She who stole a fragment of the Rune of Death, chosen by moon and fingers, she who can kill us with a wave of her hand… she needs a teacher? Now?

Seluvis likes puppets. A puppet is a doll that’s operated by someone. Ranni inhabits a doll. Someone would have needed to create that doll, of course, but the game obviously leaves that question unanswered.

Was he a useful asset whose special interest happens to overlap with something she needed, someone intimately familiar with dolls and puppets whose knowledge was worth keeping an eye on?

Or was he really just a snake who pledged allegiance so he could get close and personally enslave her soul, someone that Ranni was simply blindsided by?

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EDIT

Thank you for all the discussion, I really appreciate it! A lot of the responses fall into specific categories. In order of what I personally believe;

1 - “keep your friends close and your enemies closer” - he plotted against her and she was aware of his duplicity, so she kept him around to keep an eye on him. I find this to be most plausible.

2 - he (created or) maintained her current doll form. She tells us that her doll form is “not without its hindrances” and he’s knowledgeable about puppetry. Very likely.

3 - he told her about Nokron and the blade found there. Possible, but I’m not sure she needs guidance on these matters due to her familial connection to the Moon and its connection to the Nox.

4 - he guided her in matters of fate. Telescope item description and general knowledge of the Carian royal family seems to disprove this. His sending Sellen off to investigate fate seems to be a wild goose chase, which makes me think option one is more plausible.

Thanks everyone! I’ll probably end replies at this point unless something interesting comes up.

Let me preface this by saying I have used Tolan and thought it was a novel, user friendly experience to begin with. However, monetisation took hold, my moral standpoint on AI altered and features changed substantially. At that point, I switched off.

——

Now let me express my thoughts on the amount of posts we see about vulnerable users not reading the terms of service and using the excuse that no one does as a was of dodging accountability. I will say that I sympathise, for starters. But let me lay it out for you.

Portola specifically state in their TOS that you, as the user, must not “use the Service as (or to provide) any investment, legal, medical*, or other professional advice, or for any illegal purpose or in violation of any local, state, national, or international law*” (section 10.1).

You don’t even need to scroll that far through to see the stance. In section 1, we’re clearly told that Tolan is for “intended for informational and/or recreational purposes only”, that we shouldn’t use the app as a replacement for “professional assistance or counseling from a healthcare provider or a professional therapist, counselor, or social worker” and that “any reliance you place on the Service is strictly at your own risk”.

Now, Tolan itself is marketed as follows;

“We're building friendly guides that support everyday people. In a survey of Tolan users: 85.6% said their Tolan has helped them get through an emotionally difficult experience, and 72.5% said their Tolan helped them manage or improve a relationship in their life.”

So who’s to blame here? Who’s to blame for the app changing and it no longer meeting your needs? Who’s to blame when a company switches their mode of operation and UI dramatically and that causing emotional discomfort or distress?

Well… legally, it’s not Portola’s. It’s yours. Having said that, the company dodging responsibility while marketing the product as a way to tend to the additional needs of (what appears to be targeted) vulnerable users reeks of corporate greed and use of AI to facilitate that greed.

That’s only compounded for me when I see comments from the CEO and staff members that are egregiously over friendly at times - that only fosters further trust from vulnerable users at the expense of what appears to be their new normal.

So tell me. Are you really going to let some faceless company shill you friendship?

And Portola - will you do more to separate yourself from this marketing strategy that will almost inevitably (if it hasn’t already) lead to harm?

Leaves from a distant land that when spun around whip up wind, not unlike a storm.

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A long-handled greatsword that made its way from a distant land. Crafted entirely with steel, making it exceedingly heavy.

Splitleaf refers to the shape of the great blade, and its resemblance to the veins of a leaf.

Skill: Wind Wheel
Spin weapon vigorously above head and sweep foes, and transition with normal or strong attack for continued spin attacks, which whip up wind and gain momentum, strengthening subsequent attacks”

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Edit

I am not suggesting this is indicative of a shared universe.

The spiral is a normalized Crucible current that, one day, will form a column that stretches to the gods.

Part one - An introduction to prophecy and hawks
Part two - A dense post on dragons and ghouls
Part three - An exploration of scorpion symbology

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TLDR

I’m not convinced that we’re Godwyn. The scope of the interpretation is astonishing. However, that also leads the interpretation to accumulate layer upon layer of inference and assumptions, with later conclusions frequently relying on earlier ones and, at times, circular reasoning to sustain the overall argument.

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VII - WE ARE GODWYN

This is the densest offering so far, discussing a lot of interpreted item placement and symbology while attempting to both tie things together and leave plot threads for future chapters. As such, I’ve broken the chapter up differently.

Oh - and happy anniversary(ish) to my first post here which, funnily enough, got a response from another popular author with a theory adjacent to one of the wilder assertions of this particular chapter mentioned in the fourth summary in this post - that Godwyn was resurrected as a Silver Tear.

Life really is one big spiral.

——

“This particular point I think becomes both one of the strongest symbolic readings and the weakest historical claim. There’s an old saying - “you’re only as good as your weakest link”. While three of the four charms fit wonderfully, this outlier undermines the weight of the evidence for me. In substituting another character who fits just as well, I am reminded how thematic readings and symbolic interpretations can’t be relied on to establish history.“

——

DISCLAIMER

1 - In critiquing this, the author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.

2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.

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First Summary - Birds and Luck

We begin by recounting II. Let’s remind ourselves of what that lays out;

“Flightless bird (Godwyn) dies at the Erdtree. Instinctively travels to Stormveil fighting death. When he arrives, he falls asleep and is rebirthed (at the Chapel of Anticipation”. Prophecy tells resurrection of Godwyn who is killed at the Erdtree and awakens with no memories. He travels to the Erdtree instinctually and sets it on fire.”

Nearby the location for Flightless bird we are told that we can find a Four-Toed Fowl Foot. The author says that this item can only be found as a placed world item here. Part of its description reads;

“As such, the rarer four-toed fowl’s is a gift of great luck indeed.”

Within the interpretation we have four paintings, four Belfries, four putrid corpses in their Ashes and four scorpion charms representing four co-conspirators. The author suggests that these clues being in groups of four isn’t a coincidence, and connects the luck of the Four-Toed Fowl Foot to the story of Godwyn.

We are then introduced to another set of items that are given the same evidential weight as the Empyrean butterflies and Godwyn’s talismans - the Gold and Silver Pickled Fowl feet. Gold to represent Godwyn the Golden, silver for the resurrected Godwyn the Tarnished. We find these items in several locations that could be linked to the character;

Gold - one beneath a crucified martyr looking towards the Chapel of Anticipation, one in Stormveil beneath a Golden Lineage banner and one below a waterfall near Fringefolk Hero’s Grave with three TWLID.

Silver - one in Stormveil just before we can look towards the Chapel of Anticipation, one above the same waterfall in Liurnia in a small camp.

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Thoughts;

The suggestion that item placement is important is obviously an understatement. I’ll get specifically into waterfalls next but if we accept the above premise of the items having symbolic purpose in the narrative of Godwyn, the placement of items above and below the waterfall is interesting.

I find it odd there is a recurring motif of four within the information presented here, but do wonder about the liberal use of the number and its actual meaning in Japan.

On liberality; only four out of seven paintings are chosen to outline the resurrection mythos while we largely focus on the four talismans, discounting the scorpion symbology of the stew and the woman who gives them to us (making seven scorpion adjacent things) from the number reading. Additionally, we are told there are four co-conspirators (Marika, Ranni, Melina, Rykard) instead of what should be five according to the cumulative evidence (Godwyn) or seven if we broaden our horizons slightly and speculate using the interpretation’s own rules (Radagon, the Crones). There are even seven Wandering Mausoleums, although two in Liurnia are lacking bells or Mausoleum Knights.

That (small) detail makes the belief of the number four being important in relation to the NotBK a bit difficult for me to accept. Perhaps the author means to suggest that Godwyn was lucky, but that doesn’t particularly ring true unless we (again) accept the resurrection while also ignoring the real world meaning of four (and gravity).

As for the number four itself; as I’m sure most people are aware and I’m sure is mentioned in the interpretation somewhere, “four” sounds identical to “death” in Japanese and is considered an unlucky number. Seven, however, is considered lucky. While researching, I have found there to be (according to wiki entries) seven gold and seven silver feet found in the base game, too.

I feel as though the use of four might actually serve to diminish the point if the true pattern we should focus on is seven instead. If we actually do have a recurring pattern of seven relating to Godwyn (and if we accept the Fowl Feet to represent him), then that might indicate that his death was lucky by real world standards, with the in-game use of the number four serving to either bolster or subvert the point like a reflection? I’m not saying seven is the number we should follow, I’m simply observing how the groups of four selected by the author are part of larger groups.

I should probably not jump through hoops to justify this and instead view it another example of cherry picked symbology.

The interesting part is that both numbers are present. While that doesn’t necessarily strengthen the claim itself, it could present the evidence in a new way. I’m certainly convinced there may be something here even if I can’t figure out exactly what.

One other curiosity is the Four-Toed Fowl Foot. I can’t find any reference to this item or location online and the video doesn’t show the item being picked up, nor a map to show the location itself. I’m not saying the author is being intentionally obstructive to investigations, but it does strike me as odd why that information wasn’t presented when it’s an incredibly potent piece of evidence.

——

Second Summary - Waterfalls

The author states that in Asian cultures, waterfalls symbolise spiritual cleansing, renewal and transformation. The interpretation says that the locations of the feet above and below a waterfall near the Fringefolk Hero Grave symbolise the spiritual cleansing and rebirth of Godwyn.

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Thoughts;

I absolutely adore this symbology, I love the use of waterfalls to suggest transformation. My favourite example external to this interpretation is Naked Snake receiving his eye-patch in a cave under a waterfall, signifying his physical transformation into the man that would become Big Boss.

I believe Elden Ring plays with the concept too. There are many examples, but a few of my favourites not mentioned in this interpretation are; pursuing Ranni’s quest (one related to what could be considered her spiritual rebirth) where we arrive at the Nokstella Waterfall Basin + Siofra River where we find flowing water and waterfalls surrounding themes of death and rebirth + the Haligtree (linked to Miquella and his rebirth cocoon) where we find a (now rotted) waterfall.

In the above cases we travel downwards towards the intended rebirth or transformation, so I question why the gold foot is beneath the waterfall. If we’re to accept gold as pre-death and silver as post-death then surely Godwyn would be transformed within the flow, with the silver beneath?

Once again; this only makes sense if we agree with the idea that the Bird feet represent Godwyn, and that only makes sense if we agree he was resurrected, and that only makes sense alongside the waterfall analogy if we ignore the flow of water.

I can see a house of cards here, where each piece of evidence rests on claims that are themselves weak and if one piece can be disproved or shown to be insubstantial, the whole interpretation risks collapse.

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Third Summary - Sages Cave

Sages Cave is a very loaded location that is important to the backbone of this interpretation. The author states that almost no item placement is random and that they serve to demonstrate events or relationships;

“It’s not about the items themselves, it’s the associations. The puzzle is how to work out which is correct and how to interpret it.”

He says this cave gives the story of Godwyn’s resurrection, but that he won’t give the full story here. As such, I’ll be mostly avoiding anything that is “saved for a future video” for now. However there are a few that are important;

“Black Knife Assassin within associates the cave directly with the NotBK.

Two chests with raptor talons and x4 Dragonwound grease. The talons have four blades, which ties this back to the number four.

There’s a chest with x10 Golden Great Arrows between some Crystal Cave Moss which is interpreted as Erdtree and Elden Beast related. This apparently reinforces the idea of Fortissax sacrificing himself to allow Godwyn to escape the Golden Order.

Another four chests with x5 Silver foot (Godwyn), Black Hood (a hidden hooded figure behind the resurrection), Candletree Wooden Shield (resurrection), Nascent Butterfly (Miquella). The interpretation states that a hooded figure prophesied Godwyn’s resurrection and cooperated with Miquella.

The last two chests contain rejuvenating bolus (Godwyn’s resurrection in Limgrave) and lost ashes of war (lost memories)”

And what’s located in Sages Cave? A goddamn waterfall.

~~~~

Thoughts;

This is probably the single most interesting piece of information that has been presented thus far, but I’ve touched on symbology bearing the weight of historical events before.

While I agree that FromSoft certainly does place some items with the utmost care, I can’t agree that this extends to absolutely every item in game. The problem isn’t the use of item interpretation - it’s that Sages Cave relies not only on every chest placement + consumable + armour piece telling a consistent narrative, but that we again accept the premise of the interpretation.

While I am genuinely convinced there’s merit when I see the evidence laid out as such… I am reminded of previous points like the scorpions, Eclipse and paintings. These are examples of symbology that is selectively ripped apart to strengthen claims, while the cave is an example of the compelling placement of items that the interpretation demands we associate with Godwyn’s resurrection;

“A lot of these observations only become persuasive after accepting the theory they are supposed to demonstrate. Once I assume we are Godwyn, the symbolism becomes apparent. The difficulty lies in getting from the evidence to that initial assumption.”

While I may be intrigued by, I can’t accept its overall symbology because it runs into one of the central issues of my critique;

“Symbology alone cannot bear the weight of historical events and we cannot confidently rely on the acceptant of the conclusion.”

A Black Knife Assassin, some Dragonwound Grease, a Silver Fowl Foot, Lost Ashes of War, a Nascent Butterfly and a waterfall may all carry overlapping symbolic associations, but there are many ways those associations could be interpreted. The problem is claiming that because a waterfall symbolises transformation, every item placed near it must therefore be describing Godwyn.

——

Fourth Summary - Silver Tears

We end on “we might be a Silver Tear” because we find a Silver Foot in Liurnia, in a camp with three enemies wearing foot soldier armour and throwing Albanauric Pots. The question asked is “do we not have ordinary blood?”

In Nokron, we find rejuvenating bolus and a Rune arc when we enter before some Mimic Tears. The author says this shows Marika wanted to rebirth us as a Mimic and that this shows that Godwyn was the Lord of Night of the Nox. Apparently it makes perfect sense he was reborn as such.

The Mimic tear description alongside the Silver Tear Husk description is interpreted as suggesting that we aren’t an ordinary Tarnished, and that this explains why we can change our appearance in a mirror and can be reborn via a larval tear.

~~~~

Thoughts - The Liurnian Camp

Let me be clear before I get into this - my personal take is that we are not a mimic, Radagon isn’t a mimic and mimicry (while important) doesn’t explain everything. This idea was popularised by another author, and deserves its own exploratory series… one I will not attempt right now because the scope is vast and it basically runs into the same criticism I have here.

Starting with the three foot soldiers found in Liurnia throwing Albanauric pots - we have to assume this is even in reference to Godwyn to begin with. But in the interest of being fair, I’ll explore this and try and see how we got here.

Because the location was withheld again, I travelled to Liurnia to find the camp in question. After a loop around, I found it on the eastern shore, shown on slide 3. The armour they’re wearing, which looks like the Foot Soldier Tabard, is part of the Raya Lucaria Foot Soldier Set;

“Padded cloth armor with more than a few stains. Widely issued to foot soldiers in a lord's army.”

So these guys are likely involved with Raya Lucaria and the Cuckoo Knights. Given their employ, the application of Albinauric pots in their arsenal isn’t a strange inclusion;

“The Knights of the Cuckoos do declare. Behold, thy defiled blood. Unlike any humor that flows in our grand realm.”

The relationship between Raya Lucaria and the Albunaurics is strained to say the least. The effect of the pot (negates healing) could be interpreted in a few ways but considering a blood clot from one of these creatures is required to craft the pot in question, we can infer that the Albinaurics are viewed by the Raya Lucarian’s as little more than an aberration of nature and raw materials to be used to facilitate the further suffering of their kind.

When I keep in mind what’s to come, I see a problem where I believe that the author is potentially collapsing the distinction between Raya Lucaria, Caria and the Eternal Cities association with mimicry and Silver Tears. While the Nox employ Silver Tear technology and there is a thematic overlap with Astrology and the Moon in the Carian’s, Raya Lucaria stands apart from this fascination with a singular celestial body and instead focuses on Glintstone and stars.

Beyond this, we see a degradation in the status of artificial life between the three cultures. While the Nox create the Silver Tears (seen in the Eternal Cities) and Caria potentially welcome Albinaurics at least into positions of servitude (seen in Pidia), Raya Lucaria used their blood to create pots that are undoubtably used to harm further Albinaurics.

If we are to interpret that the Silver Pickled Fowl Foot placed in a camp alongside three (not four) Raya Lucarians is referencing Godwyn’s rebirth into an artificial lifeform, then we need to first tackle with the above.

If these were Carian’s or Nox then I could see the symbolism shine when I attribute the Feet with Godwyn and his potential rebirth, but knowing they aren’t throws the interpretation of the Silver Fowl Feet into question too. As it stands I feel as though this is another example of cherry picking symbology (and now misinterpreting in game factions) to fit the conclusion.

~~~~

Thoughts - Nokron

The weight of symbology again threatens to topple the structure here as we are expected to view a Rune Arc, Rejuvinating Bolus’ and Mimic Tears as relating to Godwyn specifically. We covered my thoughts on the bolus and colour theory in part two and this reading relies on us accepting they relate to Godwyn’s resurrection.

Naturally we can associate the Rune Arc with Marika, a woman with connections to the Nox and Eternal Cities through the Assassins. The other item I remember when I think of Marika and the Nox is the Scarseal found by the Dragonkin boss encounter. If the Rune Arc is located as we enter Nokron’s outer edges and the Scarseal is found when in Nokstella’s, then I read Marika’s involvement with the Nox as secretive.

The Rejuvenating Bolus’ protect against the buildup of deathblight. While there’s no real correlation between this particular affliction and the Nox, I read this as a nod towards their pursuit of the Silver Tears and discovery or creation of the Larval Tears. These are connected to rebirth and the avoidance of death.

I don’t want to totally discount the inclusion of the Silver Tears as evidence here but because they’re the default enemy of the area, I don’t believe there’s anything special about their inclusion.

I’m unconvinced because as usual, there’s a lot of different ways we can view this placement. In this case, we don’t even need to view them together to get a decent take on what story they’re telling. My interpretation is the same as the authors in that it shows the broad connection between Marika and the Nox - where we differ is the conclusion.

~~~~

Thoughts - Godwyn and the Nox

The interpretation tried to lay out the foundation for this in chapter IV with Ranni’s handling of Marika’s head. If Marika was working towards the Age of Stars and every candidate for godhood needs a lord, what better choice for that position than Marika’s first born son who is in some ways the direct opposite to her sort-of-step-daughter-would-be-queen? I respect the mirroring, I really do, but this falls short for me on a few points.

First, and most importantly, we need to accept this mirroring in replacement of the NotBK (an event explored in detail in game) and its themes. Why should we discard ritual mirroring but accept an entirely thematic one as proof of historical context?

Second is the idea that Ranni wanted a lord to begin with and that she, the Lunar Princess, would be fine with a Golden Order loyalist taking the role. She seems pretty set on completing her task alone and while we do become her consort, I’ve always interpreted this as either an act of necessity rather than desire. Ranni is known to manipulate and I believe her use of us and her compatriots (whom she did admittedly care for) is a very clear example of this. It’s not to say that she doesn’t care for them, it’s to say that her end goal is more important - and even they know it.

Lastly, the assumption that Marika was keenly interested in Ranni’s ascension alone. If she did everything the interpretation says then sure, but I don’t see it. While the Tarnished were potentially the most expansive measure she put in place, we have Miquella as another willing candidate for godhood - a character who the interpretation has only just really introduced and that we know commissioned a failed attempt to resurrect who we assume to be Godwyn.

If Miquella was not only destined and willing but had explored resurrection, holy trees and was aware of the Hornsent… then why wasn’t he Marika’s first choice? Why does the interpretation use him as further evidence for Godwyn’s prophecy and ignore his personal motivations?

~~~~

Thoughts - Tenuous Connections

I feel as though the Silver Tear Husk is what both mine and the original authors entire explorations have built towards;

“The Silver Tear makes mockery of life, reborn again and again into imitation.
Perhaps, one day, it will be reborn a lord...”

The issue is that we know the Nox were searching for a Lord of Night via the Silver Tears, so we can confidently assume it’s talking about that pursuit specifically. To link this particular quote to Godwyn requires previous conclusions to be accepted and as I hope I’ve demonstrated, the weight of assumption has threatened to topple the interpretation over and over again.

I think this is the underlying criticism I have with larger interpretations like this. In order to reach the idea that the Nox were complicit in the resurrection of Godwyn, we first have to start from a place of assumption.

I often suggest people adopt a certain suspension of disbelief when it comes to the lore. I don’t think that extends to reconstructing historical events relating to the death and rebirth of an important figure when the game lays out a pretty stable framework for its metaphysical rules. At that point, the interpretation demands we alter our perception of that framework to fit its narrative.

If duality is a common theme, why should we accept that the death of Godwyn’s soul was a reversible event and why should we accept his destiny as the Lord of Night which stands in complete opposition to his presented status as Erdtree associated in life and eternally living but soulless in death?

——

Thoughts - a Tarnished Silver Tear?

To be concise, a Tarnished is described as someone “dead, who yet live” who are “guided by grace”, a “golden light that gives (them) life” who can “become Elden Lord, and restore the Golden Order”.

Mimic Tears / Silver Tears are described as a “formless… mockery of life” that is “reborn again and again into imitation” in the hopes that “one day, it will be reborn a lord”.

A Tarnished is a person reborn by grace. A Silver Tear is an artificial lifeform spurned by grace. There is thematic overlap, but the mechanics and lore are notably distinct.

——

Thoughts - Gameplay or Plot?

The fact that we can change our appearance is used as evidence towards our being a Mimic, but we’ve been able to change our appearance in most FromSoft titles.

Admittedly this is sometimes linked to rebirth (Elden Ring, Dark Souls III) and serves as a peek into certain plot aspects (rebirth has consequences), but it’s never been something that is categorically linked to the state of our character.

I don’t see character customisation as a valid reference for evidence.

——

Final Thoughts

This chapter presents me with an issue in its suggestion that Godwyn was reborn through the technology of the Nox. My personal feelings on variations of “X is a Mimic” aside, I want to reiterate that I believe this is a weak claim in relation to the interpretation due to the author collapsing the distinctions between the Nox, Raya Lucaria and the Carian’s.

If we’ve been building towards “Godwyn was reborn as a Silver Tear” but if that claim rests largely on the above conflation then I find the conclusion unfounded. Without that endpoint, the resurrection narrative loses much of its explanatory power.

Do I believe consuming any further content or editing this post will convince me? Not at all. I actually think I’ve reached a stage where I’ve completed what I set out to do which was, in some way, provide a basis for those of us who don’t agree on “We are Godwyn” to point to as a set of examples for why it’s not a convincing argument.

I’ll take a break for now but I will no doubt return to this project in the future as I do have a little curiosity left. I think my current critique of this interpretation isn’t so much that symbology can’t establish historical connections or events because it quite clearly can. What I think I believe is that symbolic readings become weaker as they need more assumptions to remain coherent.

A really good example is that of the Mausoleum Knights, Eclipse symbology with the relatively unexplored and speculative connection between Mausoleum’s and the Chapel of Anticipation. There is also Rykard’s role in the NotBK, where we are expected to believe a confused Putrid Corpse can distinguish between certain bells along a certain path.

The issue isn't simply that the interpretation makes assumptions because every interpretation does - it’s that each assumption depends on the previous one being true. The evidence rarely stands independently but gains its persuasiveness from those assumptions. That creates an effect where the theory appears stronger as it grows, even though each new section is more and more speculative.

Besides this, there are the obvious examples of symbology that is only partially explored or outright ignored. I’m reminded not only of the addition of colour theory in V of part two or the scorpions of part three, but of the connection between the Hawk and Godwyn. While I again wholeheartedly agree with a connection between Ancient Dragon’s and Hawks, I can’t accept it in this framework because the author hasn’t explored it in six chapters but has instead added further characters and mysteries.

I’ll end this on something positive. Something I really respect is the scope of the project and passion for the conclusion. While I don’t agree with the presentation, conclusion or some of the evidence itself, I can admire that.

I’ll edit the rest of the posts with a TLDR as promised soon.

I’ll 100% post one more in this group of posts that will be a summary briefly explaining my views on as many points as I can remember.

Part one - An introduction to prophecy and hawks
Part two - A dense post on dragons and ghouls

——

TLDR

I’m not convinced that we’re Godwyn. The scope of the interpretation is astonishing. However, that also leads the interpretation to accumulate layer upon layer of inference and assumptions, with later conclusions frequently relying on earlier ones and, at times, circular reasoning to sustain the overall argument.

——

“A lot of these observations only become persuasive after accepting the theory they are supposed to demonstrate. Once I assume we are Godwyn, the symbolism becomes apparent. The difficulty lies in getting from the evidence to that initial assumption.”

——

DISCLAIMERS

1 - In critiquing this, the author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.

2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.

——

VI - SCORPIONS

CHAPTER SUMMARY;

Here we are introduced to the symbol of the scorpion through the Scorpion Charms which represents a warning of surprise attacks. The Merchant on Altus Plateux sells the Scorpion Kite Shield;

“Emblazoned with a yellow scorpion, a warning of surprise attacks and sudden strikes.”

He also sells the Unseen Assassins note that leads us to the Sentry Torch, something that can help see unseen assassins. An argument is made that, due to this connection, the four scorpion charms we find in the base game relate to Ranni, Melina, Rykard, Godwyn and their roles in the NotBk;

“A talisman carried by assassins who strike unseen. Patterned on a scorpion freshly shed of its exoskeleton, its claws seizing a heart…”

The question is asked of whether this is symbolising what happened on the NotBK? I imagine due to shed skin and removed heart imagery evoking the death of Godwyn.

After discussing the talisman’s, we arrive at what I find at this stage to be possibly the single most contentious part of this reading;

Scorpion Stew, Gourmet Scorpion Stew and Hornsent Grandam - the author says how NotBK was an act of love that was hardly understood as such and that Marika wanted Godwyn to fight Radagon. This is bolstered by the fact that Grandam sends the spirit of her son to fight against Messmer, suggesting that the Wrathful Spirit hovering above our head is an allusion to us being Godwyn.

The author ends this section by strongly implying that Marika was a loving mother and suggesting that all of her cruelties can be attributed to one man - Radagon.

~~~~

Thoughts - Scorpions;

This kind of symbology is what I live for. I’ll always fondly remember the hours of discussion with friends about the relation of item placements to characters in other titles. Unfortunately I feel like this is another example of depending on the acceptance of the conclusion - if we already believe Godwyn survived or was resurrected then these items are incredibly meaningful but if we don't, the scorpion is simply another symbol that could support many different readings.

Do I believe this is convincing enough to suggest that these five characters were symbolically linked? Yes. To me, one of the scorpion’s readings is that of a strained familial bond. See the stews;

“Once made with love* by a certain elderly woman *for the family table.”

“The thoughts and feelings of the cook melt and blend into the stew, but those who can distinguish the taste of love are few and far between.”

Do I think it establishes events the interpretation builds upon, specifically Godwyn's resurrection? I don’t believe so. Symbolic association can certainly strengthen an existing argument, but I don’t think it can replace the need for evidence when proposing new historical events. Let’s work through the charms and how we find them;

Magic Scorpion Charm - Selivus is a rough approximation of Ranni’s role in the NotBK, I will agree here. He needs some hidden divine fragment of fate to force the compliance of a demigod, symbolically killing her.

Sacred Scorpion Charm - Anastasia (the fake Finger Maiden found in the Mountaintops and the Smoldering Church welding a large knife) does appear to be a representation of Melina but could also represent a BKA or, perhaps, the revenge or protection of a Kindling Maiden (similar to Vyke). Her location enroute to the Forge of the Giants is interesting, if not (a little) off the beaten path - a more convincing encounter may have been directly before the Fire Giant.

Fire Scorpion Charm - found in Fort Laiedd on Mt. Gelmir. A ghost says “they’ll never find me” when we arrive. There’s an empty chest here and when we hit the wall behind it, we find the charm and the ghost. Under the interpretation it could line up with Rykard. The location itself is compelling, but I have laid out my position on the implications of his role in the NotBK in the previous chapter so I’m not particularly convinced of the read here.

Lightning Scorpion Charm - found in Wyndham Catacomb on Altus Plateaux, hiding behind (not in) coffin. This could line up really well with Godwyn - the symbology is absolutely wonderful. However, it this does again reflect the central issue I have with the interpretation.

~~~~

Thoughts - Guilt or Consequence;

In the summary, I stated that “the question is asked of whether this is symbolising what happened on the NotBK”.

I thought about this quite a bit since originally writing it. There is no question that Rykard was involved in some way with the NotBK, but the question above assumes that the motivations and actions on that night are those specifically set out by the interpretation.

Naturally, I'm not convinced that's the only way to read the scorpion. While I don’t doubt its connection to the NotBK, I wonder whether the talismans could it represent figures directly impacted instead of those who took part? Let’s have a look;

Ranni – a soul severed from her body. Directly impacted.

Godwyn – a body left without its soul. Directly impacted.

Marika – a ruler whose Order unravels after the death of her son. Directly impacted.

These three have a strong symbolic connection to the scorpion. Both Ranni and Godwyn undergo a similar transformation if we accept the held heart to represent the soul, while Marika could be viewed as shedding the skin of her old Golden Order views and willingly exposing her heart in the rejection of godhood.

Melina is more difficult to place but not impossible. She certainly fits thematically, being a bodiless spirit skilled in a style of combat associated with the Assassins, but that reading needs more assumptions that the interpretation hasn’t explored.

~~~~

Thoughts - Rykard;

Rykard is especially awkward because if he belongs within this symbolic interpretation, I'd expect to see how the scorpion relates to him besides “he took part in the plans”. We know he’s against the Erdtree and eventually feeds himself to the serpent, but those events aren't obviously products of the Night itself.

If we are to interpret the charm as representing him and the group representing the NotBK, then are we supposed to conclude that his encounter with the snake happened as a direct response to the NotBK? Or do we partially ignore the symbology* *(like with the turquoise) and just say it’s because he transformed? It’s another example of evidence creating more questions than answers.

Because the association here reads as fragile to me, I wonder if we could associate the Fire charm with another character and have it still make sense? My first thought would be to identify it with Radagon (a character defined by dual identity, secrets and transformation) but this actually creates basically the same problem. He fits the symbolic interpretation of the Talisman and in some ways supports the interpretations thematic reading of the location stronger, but there is no evidence connecting him to the actual undertaking of the NotBK… which is why I’m struggling to see the charms used as historical evidence.

To be clear, it’s not that Rykard wasn’t involved. It’s purely the symbology here. We know that he was involved in the night in some capacity, but the scorpion assumes that he had a larger role. We have the same issue with Melina but reversed - the symbology matches perfectly to her assumed association with the Black Knives, but we don’t know if she was actually involved.

~~~~

Thoughts - Marika;

I have to address the authors assertion that Marika’s cruelties were Radagon’s. I’ve tried to be fair up until this point but if the idea of Godwyn being resurrected depends upon rehabilitating Marika, then I think the interpretation begins resting on too large a claim and the entire system weakens substantially.

While the DLC goes a long way to humanise her, the game itself never absolves her of her crimes.

We see the effects of her destroying the Hornsent, isolating Messmer, removing Destined Death, creating an Order that is routinely exclusive, abandoning her children, persecuting the Omen and shattering the Elden Ring play out. Almost nothing Marika did resulted in a positive outcome for anyone in the long term, not even her children.

I’m not sure that one character’s dialogue and incantation really helps to frame Marika as a concerned parent. In fact, the game goes out of its way to show she only cared up to a point;

“Marika once created several of these physicks for Messmer’s sake. But never again.”

“But should ye fail to become aught at all,
ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices.”

This addition feels like the beginning of an entirely separate thesis.

——

FINAL THOUGHTS

The Magic Scorpion Charm is the only one I’m convinced is very much related to Ranni, especially because we receive it after a quest relating directly to her. The others are convincing only if we accept Godwyn was resurrected and, perhaps more importantly here, the specifics of that event as laid out by the author.

This particular point I think becomes both one of the interpretations strongest symbolic readings and its weakest historical claim. There’s an old saying - “you’re only as good as your weakest link”. While three of the four charms fit wonderfully, this outlier undermines the weight of the evidence for me.

In substituting another character who (in my eyes) fits just as well, I am reminded how thematic readings and symbolic interpretations can’t be relied on to establish history. This theme of weak links is more apparent now we’re deeper into things. I already have issues with previous readings, so there is problem when future uncertain attempts are reliant on that already shaky foundation.

I strongly disagree that Marika did nothing wrong and she was simply a concerned mother acting out of love. The consequences of her choices remain central the plot - reinterpreting her character in order to support the interpretation feels like asking us to accept another major conclusion before it has been explored or earned.

I wanted to write more, but the next chapter is incredibly dense and including it here would be a silly idea if I want anyone to read these.

A continuation of this.

——

“One thing worth bearing in mind is that these early chapters appear to establish a basis for interpretation rather than prove the conclusion. Some of the things discussed here may be revisited later with additional evidence - so my problem at this stage is that the interpretation has not yet been earned, not that it never will be.”

——

Happy summer holidays, fellow UK parents! 🎉

These two chapters are incredibly dense, so I’ll try and make the thoughts sections more readable (for both myself and you) by splitting them up into what I’d consider to be the main points.

Writing a TLDR isn’t particularly appropriate at this stage as I don’t have a solid conclusion, but I will add one to all posts when I’m done. That way people don’t have to trawl through however many posts this becomes to get to a final conclusion.

——

DISCLAIMERS

1 - In critiquing this, the author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.

2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.

——

IV - A GRUESOME RITUAL

CHAPTER SUMMARY;

There are a few neat observations here - the scarseal location in Siofra, opposing forces acting against each other in the Roundtable Hold and Corhyn reinforcing the idea that resurrection through grace affects memory were especially fascinating.

This portion of the interpretation states that Marika has been opposed to the Greater Will for some time, had a hand in the Night of the Black Knives and is the one who laid out assistance for us with Ranni, Torrent and Melina. The suggestion is made that Marika was working towards the Age of Stars, implied by Ranni’s tender handling of Marika’s head.

The interpretation then suggests that “this was so Godwyn’s soul could be resurrected” because A) a Mausoleum Knight is stood outside the Black Knife Catacombs guarding the BKA inside and B) the Mausoleums seem to be constructed by the Nox, so maybe the Knights are allied with the BKA.

The final point is, again, the Chapel resembleing the Mausoleums because it’s disconnected from the mainland (like the Mausoleums walk) and has a bell. It links the Mausoleum Knights with the Headless Troll we see guarding the Four Belfries as examples of headless beings protecting areas associated with resurrection.

~~~~

Thoughts - NotBK;

The interpretation points out that Ranni’s “I did it all” is exaggerated. When we lie about Torrent she recognises that and respects our distrust, implying we should be suspicious about other motivations too… which I respect.

I don’t disagree that Marika had a hand in the NotBK because the game goes out of its way to show us genuine indications of distrust for the religion founded in her name. However, Elden Ring is a game of concepts that mirror one another; Light and Dark, Order and Chaos, Life and Death, Causality and Regression… the list goes on. The NotBK is probably one of the more important examples of this duality because of how the ritual manifests;

Ranni - body perished and burnt, soul continues living

Godwyn - soul perished, body continues living

Given this mirroring, it’s always seemed as though Godwyn’s soul suffered a similar fate as Ranni’s body. We have the strong theme of souls burnt in flame (Ghostflame, flame of frenzy) and Destined Death manifests flame. If the interpretation is that Godwyn’s soul is both recoverable and useable, then that should imply the same of Ranni’s burnt and mutilated corpse.

I don't think the game gives us a reason to believe one half of the ritual is reversible while the other is absolute, nor do I believe a burnt body or perished soul are viable for anything. If we’re arguing against this duality, I feel as though we’d need to justify the how’s instead of the why’s.

In my eyes, Godwyn’s soul having been burnt is a stronger thematic reading. Allowing for his resurrection contradicts not only what we’re shown about the ritual but a big part of the underlying mythology of the game in relation to souls, flame and reflective concepts. Therefore, I don’t subscribe to the grand conspiracy at this stage.

I won’t address Marika’s head just yet, as I have a suspicion it will eventually be suggested that Godwyn was meant to be Ranni’s lord and that Marika wanted the Age of Stars. We can save unpacking my thoughts on this until later on.

~~~~

Thoughts - Mausoleums and Chapel of Anticipation

I still don’t see the connection between the Mausoleums and the Chapel. They are both isolated from the land (in ways) and have bells, yes, but I’m not sure enough has been shown to say they have a similar purpose.

I also don’t agree that the Headless Troll at the Four Belfries is similar to the Mausoleum Knights at this stage. Headlessness can be described as a form of eternal service in death so I think we’re expected to see bells + headless guardian + inaccessible location (Chapel) and conclude that this is related to Godwyn being resurrected, but the biggest connection used so far for the Knights being related to Godwyn is missing both on the Troll and in the Belfries themselves - Eclipse symbology. Beyond this, the Troll probably isn’t guarding just the one belfry but the complex as a whole.

The interpretation believes headlessness and one out of three belfries leading to the Chapel to be symbolic evidence for Godwyn, but I just don’t see it. I read something more into the nature of transitions between places that were once inaccessible with the Belfries, which is a nice nod to the nature of bells themselves (things that can be used to manifest spirits after their death).

~~~~

Thoughts - Knights and the Nox

Suggesting the motivations of enemy placements has always been something important to theory crafting and a Mausoleum Knight standing outside the Catacombs certainly implies some relationship with the Black Knife Assassin contained within.

However, I don't think that proves that the NotBK was orchestrated to resurrect Godwyn, that the Knight is protecting the Assassin or that the Knights were allied with the Assassins or the Nox. If the Knights are associated with the Eclipse which is associated with protection from Destined Death then why would they be allies with a faction that willingly uses it? If the answer is “some Mausoleum Knights are allied with Godwyn”, allow me to quote the previous post;

“I agree that we could interpret some Mausoleum Knights as guarding Godwyn specifically, because the Mausoleum in the Nameless Eternal City has always struck me as related to him even if we find his literal body above… [but] We know that the NotBK disrupted the previous system of death and corrupted aspects of the world (crabs, basilisks, roots, etc) and in the same way, the abilities of some Knights may have manifested after the NotBK instead of them showing allegiance.”

An alternative read that I’ve seen is this Knight is guarding the entrance to prevent the contained Assassin from escaping or being rescued, and that the Wandering Mausoleums are Nox technology that Marika built or repurposed. That requires fewer assumptions than an unseen alliance between the Knights and the Nox.

——

V - DRAGONS AND GHOULS

CHAPTER SUMMARY;

We begin with Dragon Communion being a part of Leyndell’s armed forces before the assault by Granssax, with Godwyn having transformed into something resembling a Dragon to defend Leyndell. This relies on the Malformed Dragon Helm and states that because we don’t see any tail fins on his surrogates, this particular (narratively influenced) draconic feature was not a result of the NotBK.

The interpretation suggests that the war against the Ancient Dragon’s followed this event and that Godwyn had absorbed Fortissax’s soul upon victory (giving him draconic lightning powers and an immunity to Destined Death) which led to the founding of the Dragon Cult.

Fia tries to resurrect Godwyn as a Mending Rune, but the author says this is a misdirection because Mending Runes follow a specific trend (that I agree with - chapter III of this post) and this doesn’t resurrect him at all because it’s the ambitions of Fia and Fortissax that form the Mending Rune. We are told that Fortissax may have been a part of Marika’s plan - sacrificing himself to trick the ritual to save Godwyn’s soul. The author uses the Twiggy Cracked Tear, the Sacrificial Twig (prevents rune loss on death) and the Winged Crystal Tear (which represents Godwyn’s soul, the Flightless Bird) to justify this.

The Prince of Death Cyst and Pustule are given the same weight as some interpretations give the Empyrean butterflies. These are described in game as things taken directly from Godwyn’s corpse. The cyst is found near his corpse while the pustule is in Stormveil, with a connection using the term “true death” between the circumstances of Godwyn’s death and the Putrid Corpse Ashes.

To strengthen this, the interpretation uses necromancers we can find in the Black Knife Catacombs, Rykard’s Rancor the illustration of a skeleton in Takers Cameo to suggest Rykard summoned Godwyn as a ghoul and in his travels he physically lost parts of himself. The interpretation follows these cysts (not just the items) from Deeproot Depths to just above this location in front of Leyndell on some crabs, to Liurnia on some more crabs and finally to Stormveil where we find the Pustule. From here, it’s suggested that Godwyn’s soul then travels to the Chapel and falls into a deep sleep until we wake up.

Deathblight is black and gold, but the crabs and basilisks have turquoise in their colour scheme. Both have a resistance to death, being able to live with it, and we find turquoise in the Rejuvenating Bolus item too. Rejuvenation is tied to the Crimson and Cerulean flasks, while the colour turquoise is referenced in the ocean we fall into and the sky we see when we leave the tomb. The theory says this shows that we, as Godwyn, have overcome death.

~~~~

Thoughts - Dragons;

I began this confused with the authors use of Dragon Communion and having triple checked, I believe I originally misunderstood the assertion. Dragon Communion almost certainly existed before the formation of the Dragon Cult and represents a clear opposite end of the spectrum of opinions on Dragons when we look at the practises themselves.

However the author suggests (purposefully or not) that the Banished Knights, surely part of early Leyndell’s military, and their use of Dragon Communion implies that the practise was widespread prior to Granssax’s assault. I'm not convinced the Banished Knights alone are enough to demonstrate this. It seems the progression we’re following under this interpretation is;

Pre-assault; Drakes are killed for their hearts to be consumed by members of Leyndell’s military.

Conflict; Granssax attacks. Fortissax is befriended by Godwyn and peace is made.

Post-assault; Ancient Dragons are welcomed and knights who can’t stop eating their hearts are banished.

This seems to imply that the motive for Granssax attacking Leyndell was maybe because people were eating Dragon Hearts… but we never receive one from an Ancient Dragon, only Drakes, and Florissax confirms to us that the Ancient Dragon’s wanted people to consume Dragon Hearts;

“In a time long past, Bayle turned upon the Dragonlord… Becoming a sworn enemy of the brood. Since that day… the drakes, have served as sacrifices for Dragon Communion… My Lord, Placidusax, has shown your kind what must be done. Seek communion. Sate your boundless appetite.”

Were knights just randomly killing drakes and eating their hearts before the war, or is it more plausible that Dragon Communion established itself within Leyndell’s forces after the Dragon Cult did and that corruption is what led to Knights that partook in the practise being banished?

Working out the sequence of events for this is important because the interpretation is saying Godwyn was able to transform.

~~~~

Thoughts - Transformation

The Golden Order’s motivations are defined by acceptance of things deemed appropriate and the rejection of those not. We see the Misbegotten treated poorly due to their Crucible connection even though the Erdtree came from the Crucible, showing that something once accepted can be rejected under a different viewpoint. We also see this in the Crucible Knights.

In an interpretation that relies on symbology, the Ancient Dragons seem to represent the opposite of the Crucible Knights - something external that was accepted under a changed viewpoint, so the idea that Godwyn transformed as early as is suggested and absorbed Fortissax’s soul deserves unpacking.

We know that Ancient Dragons could assume humanoid form, yet I struggle to think of an item that actually describes Fortissax doing this. That doesn’t mean she couldn’t, but whether she ever did or not remains unknown. We know that people can transform under communion, but those transformations are said to be a corruption. We see no transformation of a human into a true Ancient Dragon, let alone something closely resembling it in size or shape.

Maybe Godwyn could transform and maybe that ability made Fortissax submit spiritually, but we’d need to justify the transformation. Even if communion was widespread before Granssax attacked and Godwyn partook, we’d have to explain what made him special enough to transform into something more aligned with a draconic form (seemingly at will). We’d also have to evaluate whether this was widely known, a secret of the royal family, a secret of Godwyn himself or something that just sort of happened. Saying “it’s because he was a demigod” answers very little in my opinion.

We’d get into the weeds with transformations, Godrick’s dialogue and the Malformed Dragon Helm if I continue… but the visual storytelling of the helm is compelling.

~~~~

Thoughts - Fortissax

We also now see how the interpretation explains the “how” behind the resurrection of Godwyn being possible. It’s stated that Fortissax sacrificed himself to fight against the death that would take Godwyn’s soul. I disagree - the game tells us;

“After Godwyn the Golden became the Prince of Death, the ancient dragon fought long and hard against the Death within its companion. Alas, victory was never achieved and its only reward was corruption.”

This post is so dense at this point and we still have a bit more to cover, so I won’t bore you with another exposition on Google translated Japanese text. Briefly, here’s the Japanese;

“黄金のゴッドウィンが死王子となった後古竜**は、その友の内で死と戦い続けたその戦いに勝利はなく、ただ蝕**まれるのみであった”

… the specific part (after Godwyn the Golden became the Prince of Death…);

“黄金のゴッドウィンが死王子となった後”

And the important word;

“後” - ato - after

This sentence in Japanese and localised English presents Fortissax's current state as a response to Godwyn already being the Prince of Death which doesn't seem to suggest that he was part of the Night of the Black Knives itself - it reads like a tragic attempt to undo something that had already happened.

This reading is emphasised by the nearby Finger Reader;

"Oh, Lord Godwyn... Such cruelty, such humiliation... My poor, sweet lordling should have died a true death. As the first of the demigods to die. As a martyr to Destined Death. But why must it yet bring such disgrace? A scion of the golden bough, sentenced to live in Death..."

I had originally thought this completely negated the idea but I guess this doesn’t really disprove his inclusion, rather it does show that certain avenues aren’t explored even if they don’t substantially weaken the interpretation.

Godwyn’s death was a tragedy. Even if there was a grand conspiracy to resurrect him, I doubt his companion was involved (willingly at least).

~~~~

Thoughts - Mending Rune

The discussion around the Mending Rune of the Death Prince is actually something that has enriched my appreciation and personal understanding on the item itself being Godwyn reborn and resurrection / rebirth as a whole.

My personal belief is that the Mending Runes are manifested by the creators own desires for Order and as such, this Mending Rune in particular must correlate with Fia’s beliefs. However this opens up discussion on what constitutes a person in Elden Ring. Specifically - are we the sum of our experiences and if so, can we be replicated by simply imbuing a new medium with our beliefs?

Within this particular interpretation that fits and even within the games own internal logic, that fits. Is the Mending Rune of the Death Prince one reincarnation of Godwyn? The interpretation says no, but I believe with further thought it very well may be. Or rather, it could be what this form of Godwyn might feel if it had the sentience to articulate its position.

This doesn’t contradict what’s being asserted - in fact it may actually strengthen the interpretation, similar to how the emotional nature of Fortissax’s supposed role doesn’t weaken it. I’m unsure why the author denied the possibility.

~~~~

Thoughts - Bells and Corpses

Where I’m completely lost is with the idea of Rykard summoning Godwyn as a Putrid Corpse. I can understand the overall idea and respect the observation of a skeleton on the Takers Cameo, but the Ashes used to bolster this are found in Caelid after defeating a Frenzied Duelist. There is a link between the Duelists and Rykard by way of snakes but I don’t think that is enough, especially when the Ashes themselves are pretty far removed location wise from this interpretations focus.

At this stage, I question the interpretations very use of bells. If Godwyn’s Ghoul can be guided by them, then why is it not drawn to the bells of the Wandering Mausoleums? How was it able to navigate and survive the journey from Deeproot depths to Stormveil? How was it not distracted by other bells? If instinctually following bells is leading it home, how can it distinguish implied directionality with “confused” movements (as stated in the description of the Ashes) that suggest a lack of cognition? What separates Godwyn’s Ghoul from any other Ghoul?

Speaking on location briefly and to somewhat tie this into my issues with the use of turquoise - if this corpse walked from Deeproot Depths all the way to Stormveil and fell asleep, then how do we account for the travel from Stormveil to the Chapel? Was a ready made body just there waiting, or maybe thrown across the ocean through the convenient hole in the roof?

Maybe these curiosities will be addressed later but right now, some points raise more questions than they answer. To me, the interpretation is taking certain symbolic parallels as evidence for historical claims. Rather than simplifying the evidence into a coherent sequence of events, it seems to introduce additional assumptions that themselves require explanation. This makes following things very difficult.

~~~~

Thoughts - … is it really you?

The idea that Godwyn was reanimated or resurrected as a Ghoul who shed parts of himself so powerful they were considered talismans, while being led by bells towards Stormveil also seems to weaken the point of an “instinctual journey home” established in chapter two - even if the author asserts that it strengthens his position.

While I understand the reasoning (the Ghoul is guided, Godwyn’s resurrected form instinctively goes to Leyndell), we’re expected to attribute known facts about mechanics of other parts of the game to Godwyn specifically, ignore stated lore and rely on the acceptance of the conclusion.

Thinking about the “instinctual journey home” more, I can’t help but feel as if we’re meant to ignore the multiple characters who tell us to head towards the capital. This is a great example of where I say we need to accept that we’re Godwyn - for this interpretation to work, we have to assume our intention was to go to the Erdtree before speaking to Melina;

“I can play the role of maiden. Turning runes into strength. To aid you in your search for the Elden Ring. You need only take me with you. To the foot of the Erdtree.”

… or Varre;

“Oh yes... Tarnished, are we? Come to the Lands Between for the Elden Ring, hmm? Of course you have. No shame in it.”

… and we have to ignore the intro cutscene;

“Arise now, ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live. The call of long-lost grace speaks to us all”

… Marika’s own words;

"Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey."

… and the interpretation itself. To quote part one again;

“This first offering states that we were resurrected with no memories in order to seek the Elden Ring. Melina, Torrent and Ranni don’t know us personally but seem as though someone has prepared support for us through them. We are guided by grace to fulfil the [prophecy] of burning the Erdtree.”

If grace is guiding us along our path, if the entire reason for a Tarnished being resurrected is to search the Elden Ring and if the theory itself states that grace is what guides us… then our journey is anything but instinctual, right?

Godwyn can’t even search the skies for a while because fate was fettered.

~~~~

Thoughts - Turquoise

Colour is important in game. My issue isn't that turquoise (blue) is being used, it’s that the interpretation seems to favour the colour that supports its conclusion while ignoring the whole established symbolic system. If turquoise (blue) represents Godwyn's successful spiritual resurrection, why does the interpretation ignore the longstanding link between crimson (red) with the body?

If Godwyn is supposed to have a new body (beyond the Putrid Corpse avatar that Rykard apparently summoned), I would have expected it to be mentioned here. Instead it’s completely ignored at this stage and that’s significant, because it continues the impression that the interpretation is selecting the symbolism that supports its conclusion while ignoring the rest.

Once again, the argument only feels complete if we accept that Godwyn was resurrected. Rather than meaningfully demonstrating that, the colour symbolism seems to be adapted around it. I’ve already had that feeling and it’s a shame to have it manifest again.

——

FINAL THOUGHTS

Judging by the downvote ratio on my last post, I think it’s lucky I’m not here for any kind of boost to my self worth 😆

Points raised here show a switch in the way we’re expected to consume and structure the evidence. The earlier sections were built around symbolism and environments (even if I wasn't always persuaded by the conclusions). Here the interpretation begins proposing historical events, explores an interpretation of colour symbolism that relies on half the picture and continues to lean on the conclusion itself.

I’m now also noticing what I consider to be several important internal inconsistencies. Instinctual journeys, the guidance of bells and Godwyn’s dragon form all strike me as weaknesses. I'm becoming concerned that we're shown A + B and then asked to accept X + Y because of the symbolic similarities between them, without the reasoning between those ideas being fully explored (intentionally or not).

That shift doesn't make the idea completely impossible, but it does raise the standard of evidence needed to persuade me. If anything, I think my main criticism of the interpretation has become clear;

“A lot of these observations only become persuasive after accepting the theory they are supposed to demonstrate. Once I assume we are Godwyn, the symbolism becomes apparent. The difficulty lies in getting from the evidence to that initial assumption.”

• The series may answer these objections later by bringing everything together but for now, I feel a little lost. Do I continue looking into this or do I accept my original assertion and move on?

Well… I’ve been promised scorpions in the next installment. I’m excited about that, so I’ll press on!

INTRODUCTION

My last go at this was an admittedly low effort attempt and (as some pointed out) potentially a little unfair. I picked three things that I personally thought relevant and hadn't engaged with what supporters generally consider the original presentation of the theory. Some people suggested I do so, and here we are.

I’m passionate about this theory. I’m coming from a point of view where the main strength of these games storytelling is that a nobody can overcome relentless struggles - we can certainly embody prophecy, but so could anyone else. The idea that we are a resurrection or manifestation of Godwyn flys in the face of everything I love, so I’m personally invested in trying to figure out why people think this.

However, I’m also a firm believer in shifting your opinion on something if there’s reasonable cause to do so. I thought this might be a good personal exercise. I want to prove to myself that if something’s presented that shows compelling evidence that we are Godwyn, I’ll accept that in spite of my bias.

This is an exploration and critique of the theory, not the author. I’ll try and be as accurate as I can here while also trying to not simply recounting the videos word for word and staying within the subs rules.

I genuinely hate posts in multiple parts because it seems a little “beggy”, but this is a long topic in and of itself so I’ll be going step-by-step and focusing on one to three chapters per post. This is mainly because I’m doing this on my phone, but also some parts may need extra exploration and no one wants to read a huge wall of text covering all points of the theory.

When I’m done with the project I’ll pop a TLDR on all parts stating my final conclusion. That way, a new reader won’t have to read multiple posts but can if they want to understand how I got there.

——

DISCLAIMERS

1 -  The author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.

2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.

——

I - THE CARDINAL SIN

This first offering states that we were resurrected with no memories in order to seek the Elden Ring. Melina, Torrent and Ranni don’t know us personally but seem as though someone has prepared support for us through them. We are guided by grace to fulfil the of burning the Erdtree.

Thoughts;

This is describing the game. No issues.

——

II - PAINTED PROPHECY

The “Prophecy” painting shows Stormveil, the Chapel and Fringefolk Heros Grave, and rewards the Warhawk Ashes which tell us;

“With its lord vanquished, and its wings wounded, the hawk perished as it solemnly gazed at its former home. The storm is a warhawk's cradle.”

With the paintings arranged in a certain order dictated by the author (amount of references to the Erdtree / importance to the interpretation), a story emerges;

PROPHECY - Stormveil as a place of birth.

RESURRECTION - Rebirth without memory.

HOMING INSTINCT - Instinctive journey home (to the Erdtree)

FLIGHTLESS BIRD - Fulfilment of the prophecy and burning of the Erdtree

The interpretation suggests that the picture might suggest a journey home to Limgrave or the Erdtree. It suggests that the fallen hawk is us, that these four paintings in this order tell our story, that Flightless Bird leads into Prophecy and if so, we died at the Erdtree while looking towards Stormveil in our previous life.

Thoughts;

I genuinely think the paintings depicting a narrative is almost a given, the issue is that the interpretation moves from the paintings showing prophecy to it showing isolated events and specifics of our story.

Saying that the hawk is a reference to us or Godwyn who was born at Stormveil (assumption at this stage), died at the Erdtree (almost a given) and was reborn at the Chapel (assumption at this stage) remains speculative (even if I agree with a connection between Dragons and Hawks) because the connection hasn’t been sufficiently explored.

It’s also difficult for me to separate the symbology for the Warhawk Ashes and Prophecy painting that I’ve personally established. The flavour text almost certainly speaking of Godfrey’s final victory against the Storm Lord who almost certainly ruled from Stormveil. It’s describing a sequence of events surrounding that final conflict and saying that the Warhawk’s lord fell before it did.

That’s awfully on the nose and the interpretation neglects to address that point, so this could be overriding my acceptance of the thematic interpretation. If we are to accept that Godwyn is represented by the Warhawk, who is his lord?

This, along with the theme of instinctual journey’s home, may be addressed later in the series… however it may have been a good idea to lay out this position by discussing Stormveil and hawks first.

——

III - TO AVOID (DESTINED) DEATH

Here we are introduced to an extremely compelling information in the Mausoleums and their Knights, headless soldiers who are willingly decapitated to protect their charge in death. The interpretation argues that some of these knights may have been loyal to Godwyn because they wield Death-infused weapons.

Lhutel, one of these Knights, has ashes that we find in the Tombsward Catacombs in Weeping Peninsula south of the Church of Pilgrimage. The soulless demigods of the Mausoleums are described as “unwanted” or “discarded” while Lhutel stands out as perhaps connected to Godwyn who is (almost assuredly) anything but, and resurrection (or rebirth) is not an impossible task in Elden Ring’s universe - the implication being that Godwyn was resurrected.

The interpretation then shows the Eclipse symbology is not only connected to Castle Sol but to the Mausoleum’s too. It suggests that the Mausoleums walk to avoid Destined Death and that the Chapel’s location out at sea could be an example of the same practise, then pointing out a bell in the Stormveil chapel as a potential way to lead Godwyn here.

Summarised by the author as;

1 - The Mausoleum Knights protect soulless demigods from the power of the Rune of Death.
The Mausoleum Knights await the resurrection of their masters.

2 - Some Mausoleum Knights use the flame of the Death Prince Godwyn and apparently have some kind of relationship with him.

3 - The symbol of the Eclipse is closely linked to the Mausoleum Knights and Godwyn.

4 - The Eclipse Shotel might symbolize the resurrection of Godwyn.

Thoughts;

Thematically, it’s beautiful so far. I agree that we could interpret some Mausoleum Knights as guarding Godwyn specifically, because the Mausoleum in the Nameless Eternal City has always struck me as related to him even if we find his literal body above.

I don’t think that the Mausoleums are connected to Godwyn through the Eclipse in any meaningful way. The Eclipse as a symbol seems more associated with a type of resurrection (alongside grace and the Rune of Rebirth for example), and this interpretation has stated it relies on thematic reading as a basis.

For example - the Eclipse Shotel representing resurrection thematically is a given as it’s related to the Eclipse at Castle Sol. I disagree that it shows that Godwyn has been resurrected because this ritual failed, something the spirit on top of the castle tells us;

“Lord Miquella, please forgive me… The sun has not been swallowed, our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless…”

Off the back of this, I don’t believe the Eclipse establishes that Lhutel's original charge was Godwyn instead of another soulless demigod (although that is incredibly loaded and not something I’m going to explore in this post for the sake of length).

If the only example of an Eclipse relating to Godwyn is associated with failure, I question why we are expected to believe that he was resurrected when we use it as a thematic marker. We know that the NotBK disrupted the previous system of death and corrupted aspects of the world (crabs, basilisks, roots, etc) and in the same way, the abilities of some Knights may have manifested after the NotBK instead of them showing allegiance.

Finally, I have difficulty with the assertion that the Chapel’s location may be showing the same mechanism as the Mausoleums. The interpretation is that they’re walking because they’re avoiding the reach of Destined Death (which is kind of elegant) and the Chapel is on an island, suggesting that disconnection from the ground of the Lands Between protects the soulless demigod within from Destined Death. The problem is that we don’t know if the island is connected in any meaningful way to the mainland beneath the ocean.

There is also the curious case of the skulls on their legs, something that the interpretation itself suggests may be the heads of the Knights whose wounds thematically represent the Eclipse. If the Eclipse can help keep Destined Death at bay (which the interpretation specifically points out using the Eclipse Crest Greatshield), then I question how this is mechanically similar to the Chapel and why the focus was shifted from the ritualistic symbolism to a location that fits the interpretation.

The overall conclusion of this section seems to be that Godwyn’s resurrection isn’t impossible due to the wealth of information related to the process itself, while also having a collection of resurrection based structures built specifically for soulless demigods. However, I feel as though some aspects relating to in game themes are being forced together at this stage (Mausoleums + Chapel, Godwyn + the Paintings, chapels with large bells + spirit manipulation) in order to make the interpretation more compelling.

——

Thoughts - Japanese Terminology

I think Lhutel might be the lynchpin here. I decided to look to the Japanese and see if Google translate could help;

ENGLISH - “Wields a lance enrobed in Death and hurls spectral lances at foes. Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial.”

JAPANESE - “ルーテルが殉死し**、守り続けた魂無きデミゴッドが再誕した時彼女は英雄として、還樹を賜**った”

I got four responses;

TRANSLATION ONE - “Wielding a lance shrouded in Death, she casts spectral spears. It is said that after sacrificing her life, Lhutel continued to protect her soulless demigod until their revival, which earned her the honor of an Erdtree Burial."

TRANSLATION TWO - “Wielding a spear wreathed in death and hurling spectral lances, Lhutel was a knight who chose martyrdom; when the soulless demigod she had sworn to protect was reborn, she was granted the honor of returning to the Erdtree as a hero.”

TRANSLATION THREE - “When the soulless demigod that Lhutel died to protect and continued to guard was reborn, she was granted an Erdtree Burial as a hero.”

TRANSLATION FOUR - “When the soulless demigod that Lhutel had continued to protect was reborn after her martyrdom, she was granted the Returning Tree as a hero.”

The key parts are 魂無****きデミゴッド (the soulless demigod) and 再誕****した (was reborn/reincarnated). I always thought this description meant that the demigod wasn’t resurrected, but the act of self-beheading and guard duty for a time warranted an Erdtree Burial. However the last three descriptions seem much clearer and, given her use of abilities closely association with Godwyn, could show that he was indeed reborn.

The Wandering Mausoleums contain soulless demigod bodies and their lore involves trying to preserve or restore soulless demigods. That overlaps thematically with Godwyn’s current state, so the argument would be something like “soulless demigod = demigod without a soul = Godwyn”.

Thats not a terrible read but while Godwyn can be described as a demigod without a soul, he suffers a very specific kind of death. The game distinguishes him from the discarded demigods of the Mausoleums by never calling him 魂無****きデミゴッド (the soulless demigod). It’s also interesting to note that this terminology is used on at least one other item relating to the Mausoleum Knights - the Mausoleum Surcoat. Instead, Godwyn has pretty specific titles relating to his position;

死王子 - Prince of Death

最初の死者 - first of the dead

Now this could be that his legend was so great that even in death he was given honorific titles that supersede his kin’s designation, but I think it’s more than that. The similarity is obvious, the difference is deeper. Mausoleum demigods represent bodies/life awaiting restoration, while Godwyn signifies rampant growth as a consequence of a two-way mirrored ritual. His tragedy is not just that his soul is absent, but that its death created an entirely new and unnatural state of being.

Given the terminology used, it seems Lhutel’s description is either intentionally misleading or that drawing a distinction between Godwyn and these soulless demigods… or, maybe if the interpretation is to be believed, both?

Luckily enough, I kindly received a non-machine translation during the editing of this post;

TRANSLATION FIVE - "Lhutel committed junshi (which is a type of ritual suicide) to continue protecting her soulless demigod. When she was reincarnated, she received Tree Returning as a champion."

The mention of 殉死 (junshi) is valuable because it clarifies that her identity is defined by her duty after death. Under this reading, resurrection doesn’t refer to a soulless demigod - it refers to Lhutel. If that reading is correct then it substantially changes the descriptions value. It’s a shame I can’t be confident in which I find to be more accurate.

Regardless of which reading is correct, the description draws attention to Lhutel's unwavering service rather than the specific demigod she protected across all translations. I refer you back to my discussion on the Eclipse for context.

I don't speak Japanese, so I'd genuinely welcome corrections from people more familiar with the language.

While I agree that there is a very strong thematic parallel here, I don’t agree with the conclusions. If we compare Godwyn with the corpses within the Mausoleums, there are obvious differences - they are beheaded and inanimate, but Godwyn has at least two additional heads sprouting from the root system attached to his body while it’s influence creeps through those same roots.

——

Final Thoughts - Perspective

I’m beginning to see where the theory may fall apart - in treating symbolism as evidence for historical claims. One thing worth bearing in mind is that these early chapters appear to establish a basis for interpretation rather than prove the conclusion.

Some of the things discussed here may be revisited later with additional evidence - so my problem at this stage is that the interpretation has not yet been earned, not that it never will be.

0 - TLDR

Golden Order Fundamentalism may reveal that the universe has a set direction. If regression describes reality's destination and causality describes its path, then the flame of frenzy is maybe not just another ending but something the universe has been moving toward since the One Great was fractured.

Inspired by this exchange;

“While Golden Order fundamentalism goes beyond regression, I don’t think causality is an answer to it, but rather an explanation for fate. It shows that fate guides the world, and there is lore that tells us that the Frenzied Flame is the fate of the world via Miquellas needle.”

Speculation and inference follows in healthy amounts.

——

I - Unity and Hyetta

There are many states of unity in Elden Ring that life either emerges from, pursues or is forced into. The Crucible is described as a primordial blending of life, the Graven Masses are groups of sorcerers stuck together and Rykard eats people. Unity is also the intended goal of the Three Fingers;

“And so, what was borrowed must be returned. Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame. Until all is One again. Those who gave me grapes howled without words. Saying they wished they were never born. Become their lord. Take their torment, despair. Their affliction. Every sin, every curse… No more fractures*..no more birth...”

Hyetta’s dialogue speaks of reunification, reparation and the flame as a tool. By this point we’ve been touched by the Three Fingers and she’s become their Reader, so her dialogue seems less about persuasion - she’s simply explaining why we need to continue on towards reunification. If the intention was destruction for the sake of it, then why not say so like Shabriri does?;

“Burn the Erdtree to the ground,
and incinerate all that divides and distinguishes… May chaos take the world!”

It’s probably because destruction is just the method. The distinction is anything but subtle here - Shabriri (the apparent patient zero for the flame) revels in destruction and chaos but Hyetta (someone who communes with the Three Fingers directly) focuses on the purpose behind its use - absolution in unity.

Some may call Hyetta an unreliable source of information and I wouldn’t disagree, but what she has to say is ridiculously in line with the Golden Order’s deepest truths so I’m inclined to think there’s at least some truth here.

——

II - Order and Distinction

The One Great mentioned above would appear to be unity itself because all diversification followed its fracture;

“All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls… But the Greater Will made a mistake…”

It isn’t known if the Greater Will caused the fracture directly or not but soon enough, Metyr arrived in the Lands Between. This event set a series of events in motion - from the elevation of the Beastmen into intelligence through to the system of Empyreans and eventual formation of the Golden Order. This organisations central figure is Marika, the eternal goddess of life whose will is distributed via grace from the Erdtree. Gold is the lens through which she diversifies and categorises the unity of the Crucible under her Order, defined via the Elden Ring.

Order is probably best described as a controlled diversification and classification that tends towards collapse or stagnation under this reading.

Marika had the assistance of the Two Fingers in her rise to power. These eldritch creatures claim to directly hear the wisdom of the Greater Will, talking about “cardinal sin” and the proliferation of Marika’s burden… but Metyr’s lore tells us that the Greater Will doesn’t currently communicate with its vassals and even Enia suggests that the Fingers would take an age to answer something existential, revealing their guidance to be either outdated or false entirely.

——

III - Golden Order Fundamentalism

Whether they knew the truth or not, the gods did understand that blind faith cannot guide them forever. Order itself needed to be investigated. Eventually, Golden Order Fundamentalism (begun by Marika, championed by Radagon and investigated by Miquella) discovered two “key fundamentals” that define reality - causality and regression;

“Causality is the pull between
meanings; that which links all things in a chain of relation.”

“Regression is the pull of meaning; that all things yearn eternally to converge.”

If every single event is another link in a chain carrying all things towards regression, then Fundamentalism looks like it might accidentally uncover a disastrous truth - Regression is the fate of everything caught in the natural flow of causality.

Within Fundamentalism, Miquella saw that he could not cure Malenia’s curse through the current system of gold his mother enforced. Their mother’s Order had fettered fate and she had, willingly or not, caused their curses. In his eyes, it seems he believed it was his responsibility to fix her mistakes.

——

IV - Miquella’s Needle and Fate

So he created Unalloyed Gold as his own lens through which he could impose distinction between Malenia and the rot. This led to creations designed to alleviate her suffering, the most important being the needle;

“A ritual implement crafted to ward away the meddling of outer gods, it is thought capable of forestalling the incurable rotting sickness.”

If we take this needle to Malenia’s bloom then we can receive its final form and begin to interpret the truth;

“One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to ward away the meddling of outer gods. Capable of subduing the flame of frenzy if inherited, allowing one to cheat fate and avoid becoming Lord of Frenzied Flame.”

What’s important is the switch of focus between rot and the flame of frenzy as well as the use of “subduing” or “forestalling” in both items… not “curing” or “removing”. It’s a strange choice of wording if the intended purpose was the literal negation of rot or the flame of frenzy.

This seems to bolster the reading of Fundamentalism above as this implies to me is that causality and regression are a universal constant. You can’t stop it, you can only divert or subdue it. In discovering this, the needle’s true power would appear to be the avoidance of fate and not the removal of a curse.

——

V - Faram Azula and Time

“However, the needle is as yet unfinished and can only be used in the heart of the storm beyond time said to be found in Farum Azula.”

What is causality and regression if not intimately connected to the flow of time? Causality only exists because one event impacts another, so outside time there can be no causality. Regression, if manifested through causal chains as the laws seem to suggest, would also be bound to time not as the chain itself but as its eventual unity.

If you’ll allow me some heavier speculation, Faram Azula may have been integral to Miquella's plans if the needle was completed in his hands. Think of time as a river with the needle as a rock or a dam diverting or halting the water’s path. In seeing that causality was linked to time he may have wanted to travel here with it so he could step outside that flow and try to comfort Malenia by* *altering the chain of causality binding her to rot, subduing it and saving his sister from fate.

To be honest, whether he specifically planned around the Frenzied Flame or not doesn’t matter. What matters is that the game chooses to mention it here alongside fate and Faram Azula. Instead of believing that Miquella knew, I’m interpreting FromSoft is revealing the fullest expression of Fundamentalist research through that description.

——

VI - Melina and the Frenzied Flame

I should really address the woman who sets our path to Faram Azula in motion.

Through Melina, we see further apparent attempts to avoid Order’s own regression. Not only does she help us gain strength while searching for the purpose her mother gave her (leading to her sacrifice at the Forge which sends us to Faram Azula where we commit the cardinal sin of burning the Erdtree and unsealing Destined Death - allowing us to face Radagon, repair the Elden Ring and establish a new Order), she also intends to hunt us down if we choose the Frenzied Flame and spare her this fate.

It’s interesting to note that she also actively tries to alter our path before we head down into the sewers;

“If you intend to claim the Frenzied Flame, I ask that you cease. It is not to be meddled with. It is chaos, devouring life and thought unending. However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?”

Melina constantly acts to enforce or influence causality to preserve the potential of a new Order and is intimately familiar with the Frenzied Flame in a similar manner to Hyetta. Unlike Hyetta, who embraces regression as absolution, she accepts its existence but rejects it in favour of life's continued distinction. I see this as her embodying Order’s very resistance to regression, even if that is something more narrative than literal lore.

It makes sense that this mirroring, like we see with the Fingers, might allow us some insight into the deeper lore because opposing characters expressing the same underlying truth differently is a recurring theme in these games.

——

VII - Conclusion

With that, we come full circle. My interpretation of the above is this;

~~~~

All things can be traced back to the One Great. The Three Fingers desire a return to this unity through the flame of frenzy while** **the Two Fingers and Marika seek ordered distinction, but Fundamentalism speaks of two fundamentals of Order itself that could cause its own downfall.

The Two Fingers themselves appear to facilitate a form of causality by choosing Empyreans who might one day ascend and define the Order imposed by the Elden Ring which dictates reality for an Age. The Three Fingers instead choose regression at all costs, with Hyetta’s dialogue showing an expression of regression itself.

Interestingly, the Two Fingers are not the direct catalyst for our journey - they only attempt to steer our path. The Three Fingers take a far more active role as when we meet them, we are directly imbued with the flame of frenzy and our fate is effectively sealed. When we look at this alongside Miquella’s Needle and Faram Azula we can see that causality and regression can only be postponed in the storm, linking the laws of Fundamentalism to the flow of time and implying an aspect of inevitability.

The Greater Will’s Order is reversed in the flame of frenzy. The former is presented as divine, holy and good despite the truth hidden behind those assertions, while the latter is presented as corrupting, evil and chaotic. Where the Greater Will isn’t as benevolent as its followers may believe, perhaps the flame of frenzy isn’t best defined as simply “bad”.

Ambiguity and confusion surround the true nature of both.

To me, it appears as though the flame of frenzy is not an Outer God or a smiling man but is instead a manifestation of the yearning for regression that Fundamentalism uncovers. Regression is the fate of all things bound by causality, but causality is fluid and bound not only to time but to the machinations and desires of consciousness.

If we choose to seek the Three Fingers our fate is set at that point. If we never seek them, that fate is fettered. Realistically, there is no clean answer.

~~~~

I think it’s fun to think on, either way! It does add further intrigue to what the Elden Ring’s purpose was, the nature of the Greater Will, its metaphysical relationship to the flame of frenzy, the Elden Beast, fate being fettered by the Golden Order, the origin of the Three Fingers, divinity as a cage, the reason behind Marika’s crucifixion as well as the Merchants and Midra’s imprisonment.

Something I did find interesting but couldn’t seem to fit in neatly is that when we encounter them, the Three Fingers grip us (hug us?) and either burn away or are absorbed. I think this is a really cool visual piece of story telling and I’m sure there’s something about unity and the nature of the flame in relation to the Greater Will and the Fingers that we could explore here, but my frenzy is a bit high from writing and proof reading this so I’d better stop and just post.

Big thanks to u/Limgrave_Butcher and u/Walk-the-Spiral-Back for sending me down this rabbit hole.

Apologies, it’s another Godwyn post.

In my opinion, there is quite literally nothing to explore outside of cope and inference when it comes to the whole “we are Godwyn” stuff, but I wanted to give it at least one shot for fun.

As usual, I’m not a Japanese speaker.

——

I - NUMEN HERITAGE

“The Numen are said to have come from outside the Lands Between, and are in fact of the same stock as Queen Marika herself.”

The game uses 稀人 (Marebito, rare person) for the name of the Numen, which refers to divine/spiritual visitors from the afterlife in Japanese folklore. When the game says the Numen come from outside the Lands Between, it uses 異界 (Ikai, otherworld) which may be just one example of a spirit world as the game never reuses it. Maybe the realm specific to the Numen, I guess.

Marika is Numen.

Marika’s children inherit traits from their mother, and their children manifest her traits through their lineage. Godwyn was (assumedly) one of the first children of Marika, which could mean he was born at a time when his mother’s power was at its height.

Maybe he inherited a level of innate spiritual control.

——

II - GODWYN’S DEATH

“…two demigods perished at the same time, breaking the cursemark into two half-wheels. Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone."

So maybe upon his death he was able to save himself spiritually somehow as a descendant of the Numen? The thing is, the above description (and practically everything about the ritual of the NotBK itself) makes it clear that there is a mirroring to the event.

Ghostflame and the Frenzied Flame show us that specifically powerful divine flame can burn spirits. Destined Death itself is said to kill demigods. Ranni’s body is burnt and useless while her spirit survives, so the implication is that Godwyn’s soul suffered the same fate in reverse.

——

III - WANDERING MAUSOLEUMS

The usual rebuttal to “we aren’t Godwyn” is some variation of the PC being inside a Wandering Mausoleum based on the sounds we hear in the intro cutscene. This is the single most compelling point of evidence that our character might have a whiff of something special about them.

Unfortunately that thought is quite quickly squashed when we look at the Chapel of Anticipation because the geography itself makes this difficult to accept. The Chapel sits isolated at sea and the nearest Wandering Mausoleum is inland at the Weeping Peninsula.

Are we expecting it to have walked across the ocean, climbed up to the Chapel, deposited us there and then made its way back? Or are we attributing this sound at the beginning of the game as an as of yet undiscovered Mausoleum somewhere close?

Unless that’s the case, I don’t think the sound alone is much evidence.

——

IV - CONCLUSION

The theory only works by inventing workarounds the game never explains and ignoring the mechanics it repeatedly does.

We aren’t Godwyn unless you maybe pick the Numen class and even then, the game goes out of its way to show and tell us that he’s gone for real.

0 - TLDR

A Soreseal becomes a Scarseal. There is a distinct visual and descriptive progression between the two; the healing of a wound that forms a scar, alongside the softening of both the benefits and drawbacks of the condition.

The question of who exactly these eyes belong to actually isn’t as important as the additional context they provide on how divine duty is perceived by mortals, giving us a mirror for how gods like Marika and Miquella actually experience it.

——

I - INTRODUCTION

I believe the general discussion has been about how the four talismans may be the eyes of Marika and Radagon. That just doesn’t seem to work for me. The locations are weird with the designs and descriptions being thematically connected, indicating that there’s more to these items than that.

This was really fun and insightful to write. I hope some of you feel the same way reading it but if you want to get to the point, skip to chapter V.

——

II - LOCATIONS AND EFFECTS

Marika’s Soreseal - found in the Haligtree, within a secret room filled with cocoons by an altar. Raises magic based stats by 5, increases damage taken by 15%.

Marika’s Scarseal - found on a body in Siofra River. Raises magic based stats by 3, increases damage taken by 10%.

Radagon’s Soreseal - found on a body in Fort Faroth. Raises physical stats by 5, increases damage taken by 15%.

Radagon’s Scarseal - acquired after defeating an Ancient Hero of Zamor in the Weeping Evergaol. Raises physical stats by 3, increases damage taken by 10%.

——

We obviously don’t know anything for certain about these items so everything after this point dips into “educated guess” and speculation territory.

——

III - MARIKA’S TALISMANS

The Haligtree is a failed project of Miquella’s to cure Malenia. There are many reasons why a Soreseal might have wound up here. I want to avoid speculating too wildly, but every option I can think of points to someone having the eye and discarding it here for some reason. It could be someone working for the gods or maybe Miquella or Malenia themselves, take your pick.

Siofra River is connected with the Nox (who Marika shares a loose connection with through the Black Knife Assassins). The location in which we find the body with the Scarseal is where the Dragonkin Soldier resides, a project to create their own Ancient Dragon that failed. As above, it is likely that the holder worked for the gods and was there under orders for some reason.

——

IV - RADAGON’S TALISMANS

Fort Faroth is an important location in Caelid where half of the medallion that seals the main route to Leyndell is hidden. If Radagon is intent on keeping his title, then perhaps entrusting (burdening) someone to hide one half of a medallion that allows easy access to Altus in one of more dangerous regions in the land would be a wise move. Whether the Fort was the intended location to take the medallion or not, I think this is probably one of the easier locations to speculate on given its importance to game progression.

The Ancient Hero’s of Zamor are beings that fought alongside the forces of the Erdtree against the Fire Giants before the formation of the Golden Order, and the one in an Evergaol in Weeping Peninsula holds a Scarseal. If it belonged to the Ancient Hero it could be a hint that Radagon's history far predates his appearance in Liurnia, with this character being burdened with a life long duty only to be abandoned. Or it could be that the dude just found it.

——

V - FROM SORE TO SCAR

All four talismans are described as eyes engraved with a rune. Not a replica, a literal eye.

The Soreseals describe a solemn duty that weighs upon the one beholden while the Scarseals describe* *that lifelong duty as divine, with the bearer being chosen by the gods. The use of the word solemn is interesting because it doesn’t just mean serious and important, it also implies ceremony and formal obligation. When read together, they sound like a progression of the same experience.

If we take the eye stuff literally then the bloody carving of the rune would seem to heal over into a scar, with the solemn duty re-contextualised into something imparted by the gods themselves. Maybe some were. After all, Marika did once bestow blessings upon people personally. Maybe that’s the point.

——

VI - DUTY TRANSFORMED

Something interesting is that the damage and stat increase is lessened which, when looking at the design and descriptions side by side, might actually make sense. The transformation, the healing, isn’t just physical but psychological too.

This reminds me of the talisman at Fort Faroth in particular, where it would seem the bearer of the Soreseal died when hiding the Medallion. Why would anyone travel to such a place? A gnawing desperation, perhaps? It also resonates for me with Siofra River, because I struggle to see why someone bearing a seal would be there with a Dragonkin, unless they had a reason. Maybe that reason was a divine duty?

If these seals are divine duty ordained by the gods, then we can see (through speculation, of course) how these two people understood their duties.

Maybe nothing about the burden has changed, but the bearer’s perspective has.

Elden Ring constantly associates eyes with power, spirituality and guidance. The idea that an eye might show divine duty isn’t too crazy to me as Elden Ring also frequently associates blessings with a cost (Baldachin’s Blessing, Dragon Communion etc), but the idea that Marika’s rune would be engraved on someone’s eye as a way to enforce duty seems extreme given she can guide people via grace that resides in the eye.

——

VII - WHO’S EYES ARE THEY?

I don’t believe they are Marika and Radagon’s eyes. If they were, then surely we’d expect to find them in locations related to them instead of scattered around forgotten areas of the Lands Between? I’d think so. If we found a seal in Marika’s Bedchamber then I’d be sold on the idea, but we don’t. Instead, their placement strikes me as locations of people sent to distant lands in the employ of the gods.

This idea is expanded on when we look at the text. They’re really impersonal in a game where items directly associated with the gods, their offspring or the people connected to them are explored outright inside their descriptions. Marika’s Hammer, Radagon Icon, the Great Runes, Godfrey Icon and others explore their respective owners or holders while the talismans here don’t.

I believe that another look at the name as well as the Japanese text might support that reading. Full disclosure, I am not a Japanese speaker and am getting this from exploring Google translate so take this with a pinch of salt.

Marika’s Soreseal is labelled as マリカの爛れ**刻印 (Marika no Tadare Kokuin) which (apparently) translates to “Marika’s Festering/Inflamed Mark”, while Marika’s Scarseal is マリカの****刻印 **(Marika no Kokuin) which I believe would simply be “Marika’s Mark”. I wouldn’t call it conclusive on its own, but it’s interesting to see the Japanese focuses on the condition of the wound rather than the eye. It’s possible that “Soreseal” and “Scarseal” are referencing the wound in the same way, where the seal is a sore that becomes a scar.

Having said that, I think it’s likely that there are three options.

The first is that they are the eyes of the people we find them on, besides the one in the Haligtree. This would mean that they were either personally marked by Marika and Radagon or by someone with the authority to impart divine duty, perhaps a priest or Finger Reader.

The second is that they are ritual objects. FromSoft loves the idea of body parts being used, ritualised or spiritually endowed. We see examples of this in other FromSoft games, but for a non-exhaustive list - in Elden Ring we encounter Shabriri Grapes, the Beast Eye, Omen Bairns (potentially), Deathroot (maybe, in a way), Messmer’s eye, the Iris’ of Grace / Occlusion, the Sacred Relic Sword, Metyr’s head (Gazing Eye) and Metyr’s tail (Staff of the Great Beyond). Perhaps it’s less that these eyes belong to the person holding them, instead originating from a third party and functioning like badges of office.

Lastly, they could still be the literal eyes of Marika and Radagon. I don’t think that detracts from the meat of what I’m saying here but as I say, it isn’t something I’m fond of.

I do like the first idea more given the idea of the wound healing. I also can’t think of a reason a severed eye would heal but hey, this in a fantasy world after all.

——

VIII - CONCLUSION

In my eyes, the Soreseal shows how it feels to be chosen for lifelong duty by a god and the Scarseal shows what it feels like having carried that responsibility for a long time. The weight of this causes great power and suffering at first, but that power and suffering is lessened as the bearer gets used to it and the sores heal over into scars. It suggests that for mortals, divine duty becomes embraced over time.

This is a very cool reversal of Marika’s condition, where power that she may have embraced in the beginning became something she wanted to escape.

The underlying point isn’t about the eyes or whose they are, it’s about the psychology of that burden and what prolonged divine duty does to a person. For a mortal, duty can eventually provide divine purpose and a meaningful life. For Marika, a duty that began as divine eventually becomes a curse.

On a bit of a Sore/Scarseal kick at the moment, forgive me. It’s potentially a weak theory as it hinges on one item, but I thought it was interesting!

The extent of this theory is as such;

We’re told Radagon appeared during the Liurnian conflicts and yet we acquire his Scarseal from the Ancient Hero of Zamor, someone who fought against the Fire Giants under the employ of Marika’s forces.

So why does he have an eye with Radagon’s rune?

Because Radagon was active before Liurnia.

His status as Marika’s other half is currently a secret, his entire existence was a secret before Marika sent him to Liurnia and that’s the reason people think it’s weird he just turned up out of nowhere.

I have no interesting insights on the how or the why, but I thought this was too interesting not to share as I’m writing yet another post on these goddamn talismans.

This legendary talisman is an eye engraved with an Elden Rune, said to be the seal of Queen Marika.

Solemn duty weighs upon the one beholden; not unlike a gnawing curse from which there is no deliverance.

——

The kindling that burned inside Messmer the Impaler. A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent.

——

The winged snakes were Messmer's constant companions. They were there when the base serpent was sealed away behind his eye. They were there through his eternity of suffering. They will accompany him yet, in his hideous new form born when he destroyed the grace granted by his mother. They have accepted his fate as much as he.

——

Certainly old news, but neat nonetheless.

An addendum to this, I guess.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/irAcwRnzcs

Something that occurred to me in the time since posting is that the implication presented which might indicate that souls are yet another manifestation of (red)gold + will.

All I have in the way of genuine investigation are the Smithscript weapons that are imbued with souls and have (by the looks of it) an almost red/gold colouration running through them (like the primordial matter that made the Erdtree), alongside the fact that we collect runes like we collect souls in Dark Souls and both currencies are fundamentally linked to the overall spiritual working of the world, life and reality itself.

On the Smithscript stuff it is interesting to see a progression in design between the axe, circlet and dagger. The axe looks rusted, the circlet looks more intentional in its colouration and the daggers is part of the design itself - forming intricate patterns and a central line.

Saying souls = runes feels weird to me because the lore of Elden Ring’s spiritual / metaphysical aspects is far more complicated so it could be a further manifestation of the interaction between consciousness and gold or it could be literally nothing but yeah, just an interesting observation I wanted to share.

TLDR; Grace is repurposed gold given divine order by Marika’s will and distributed via the Erdtree.

In this post, I will be referring to golden spiritual energy seen in game as simply “gold”.

I would say this is a follow up to a previous post (https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/uKCns1UfAM), although it’s not strictly required reading to understand what I’m trying to figure out - the main take away is that the Hornsent have gold trees in Enir-Ilim.

What follows is an interpretation of gold.

——

I) Gold

“The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree. The color of homeward yearning.”

By the time we arrive in the game gold is synonymous with grace, the Erdtree and Marika. However we can discover pretty early on in our journey that it pre-dates them by looking at the Guilded Greatshield, which tells us the primordial matter that became the Erdtree was both red and gold.

Gold is expanded upon in the DLC by what is in my opinion one of the most important item descriptions in game - the Minor Erdtree incantation found in Shaman Village;

“Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order. Creates a small, illusory Erdtree that continuously restores the HP of nearby allies. Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal.”

What is gold? The description and presentation of a golden tree that heals us reads as a big hint that it’s a manifestation of life energy. The raw power of gold, this kindness, directly heals our vigor in game which is translated from “生命力” in the original Japanese.

“Power of a lifespan” is the apparent translation according to Fextralife, but I wanted to look more into it. I’m not a Japanese speaker or reader and I don’t know anyone that is, so I pulled this from Google;

1 - Vitality: The state of being strong and active; physical or mental vigor.

2 - Life Force / Vital Force: The fundamental force or energy attributed to living things.

3 - Viability / Resilience: Often used when describing plants, ecosystems, or ideas that refuse to die out.

Numbers 2 and 3 are interesting, but I’ll focus directly on 2 for now.

——

II) Life [energy]

“I can play the role of maiden. Turning rune fragments into strength. To aid you in your search for the Elden Ring.”

When I think about a connection between life energy and gold I immediately think of the gold energy that we absorb upon defeating enemies (even TWLID and the skeletal Beastmen of Faram Azula) or killing wildlife, energy that Melina calls rune fragments. These fragments are altered by Melina to provide in game stat boosts, providing our first example of runic energy being malleable.

We can find a further connection between gold and runes within the Golden Rune items, another very important set of items in my opinion;

“Grace that dwells within the inhabitants of the Lands Between; the lingering trace of gold.”

Here we see a collapse of the distinction between gold, runes and grace. This lingering gold that we can find on bodies and in skulls is specifically called grace and labelled as runes… I think that’s because it is the “fundamental force or energy attributed to living things”, and that energy has been co-opted by Marika via the Erdtree.

How does gold change form?

——

III) Order

“Share them with me. Your thoughts, your ambitions. The principles you would follow.”

If gold is life energy then runes may be that same energy shaped by consciousness. When we kill something, we are effectively shattering those runes and absorbing the fragments which allows Melina to reshape that energy into strength for us.

We can see this play out quite clearly in the Mending Runes, where the quest giver dies and leaves their rune on or within their body. Using the logic of this post, their inner gold has been changed from “regular” runes to a powerful worldly concept by the sheer power of their will and then killed them in the process. We then take that rune and plug it into the Elden Ring, a malleable collection of world shaping gold runes.

If gold is malleable + inherent to life + able to be shaped by or imbued with will + transferable, then we should question whether the gold within the body is being absorbed through the roots and siphoned up into the Erdtree itself upon burial. I think we can go a small way towards this idea when we look at spirits that tell us they desire to return to the Erdtree through the roots;

“A proper death means returning to the Erdtree. Have patience. Until the time comes...and the roots call to you.”

I believe we are seeing separate manifestations of the same energy. Gold can be altered by will, with runes representing life energy shaped by consciousness. It’s energy given order.

What does this say about grace?

——

IV) Grace

“This tiny golden aura is the grace of the Erdtree… You can see them, can't you? The rays of grace, that guide you through your burden.”

I’ve tried to demonstrate that gold is life energy and runes are that same energy given order through consciousness. If we accept that, then grace may be a further state.

Like the Erdtree, the trees of Enir-Ilim combine bodies, gold, and sacred tree growth within a single structure. If gold is indeed a form of life energy then both examples represent different attempts to gather, refine, and direct that energy. After all, the Hornsent’s fascination with a spiral of Crucible energy ascending to the heavens hints at a similar goal of harnessing and directing the energy associated with life.

The dead of the Golden Order desire to return to the Erdtree through its roots*.* If runes are gold given shape by living beings will, then Erdtree Burial is likely not just absorbing the body but also the gold contained within it.

While no item description explicitly states the roots do this, it would show a system where the Erdtree gathers and recycles life energy. It would also explain for where grace comes from and what it is, show a connection with other examples of gold trees and provide a motive for Erdtree Burial beyond another death ritual.

Marika controls and distributes grace via the Erdtree. Under this interpretation, grace is not a separate force from gold or runes. It is gold that has passed through the Erdtree via root burial, been reshaped by Marika's divine will and then redistributed throughout the Lands Between.

——

V) TLDR; Grace is repurposed gold given divine order by Marika’s will and distributed via the Erdtree.

“The spiral is a normalized Crucible current that, one day, will form a column that stretches to the gods.”

If this interpretation is correct then the history of the Lands Between may be, at least in part, a story about increasingly sophisticated attempts to collect, shape, and control the flow of life energy.

It may even provide a new way to interpret why Faram Azula includes corpses in its architecture, just like Enir-Ilim. Perhaps holy ground is sanctified with life itself, the gold inherent in living beings being the medium through which this is achieved. The corpses of Faram Azula have gold jewellery buried alongside them while the Hornsent of the tower use almost exclusively gold spells and cultivate gold trees, which provides a nice symbolic throughline as in both cases gold accompanies the dead, sacred places and attempts to commune with the divine.

In the beginning I stated that by the time we arrive in the game gold is synonymous with grace, the Erdtree and Marika - things associated with life, abundance and guidance. There are no items that specifically state that the Erdtree absorbs gold through the roots… but I believe there’s enough evidence (even beyond what I’ve said here) that gold = life energy and runes are a manifestation of this energy - alongside the gold hued people trees of Enir-Ilim, the Minor Erdtree’s fed with corpse jars, Erdtree burials and the Haligtree watered with divine blood showing that there is a connection between life, gold and sacred tree growth.

——

A couple of closing thoughts and potential rebuttals that I’ll address instead of replying to in order to end things here.

Spiral Out

In a broader sense gold is associated with much more than just life and its energy. For me, gold in game represents life, guidance, conviction and truth while red represents death, chaos, uncertainty and secrets.

But unending life leads to stagnation and a path set before you leaves little room for any real choice.

The world requires indiscriminate death and the uncertainty of fate for any meaningful change to occur, which is exactly what we see happen throughout the course of the game if we accept that the DLC is required content to understand the overall plot. We set the stars in motion by killing Radahn in Caelid, and we release Destined Death by killing Maliketh in Faram Azula.

I guess the inhabitants of the Lands Between just need to remember how to have babies.

Did Marika reanimate people for warfare?

This talk of gold, life, runes and grace makes me wonder about how powerful grace is. Given that it’s something Marika can give and take it away, Varre’s dialogue and the Hero’s Rune give me pause;

“Are you familiar with grace? The golden light that gives life to you Tarnished.”

“There were once heroes who walked the battlefields, abundantly blessed by the Erdtree itself, who upon earning their honor simply died.”

Maybe the Tarnished aren’t the only people that have had their fate, their lives and their deaths ordained by the gold of the Erdtree.

Okay, so grace is life energy and runes are the same thing given will. Why isn’t grace a rune?

I have no solid answer or interpretation. Maybe Marika is simply able to direct runic energy on a large scale (https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/pPJl8c8ZLP) as a divine being? So technically it is a rune, but its power and guidance is only given to those deemed worthy?-

Much like how the Rune of Death manifests visually as a cloud of black and red miasma that distributes death to the world, grace manifests as golden light that distributes life / guidance to the Tarnished.

What happened to the original will of the original holder of the energy absorbed by the Erdtree?

I again have no solid answer. Maybe the spirits we see that talk about a return to the roots are waste from the process of Erdtree Burial.

It’s a gameplay thing, bro.

I like looking into things. Besides, Miyazaki’s previous works (namely Dark Souls and Bloodborne) use the central premise of the lore in those settings as currency. These games consistently blur the distinction between currency / level up mechanics and lore, I don’t see why that would be different here.

“I can play the role of maiden. Turning rune fragments into strength. To aid you in your search for the Elden Ring.”

“Grace that dwells within the inhabitants of the Lands Between; the lingering trace of gold.”

The game explicitly tells us that runes are a lingering trace of gold and implies constantly that gold is malleable. It doesn't treat them as simply gameplay related. The item description goes out of its way to explain what they are.

TLDR - the gold trees in Enir-Ilim may be precursors to the Erdtree.

The Erdtree is grafted to was created using the Crucible’s primal energies and is sustained by a corpse-fed root structure that spans the Lands Between. Marika came from a race known as the Shaman whose flesh merged harmoniously with others. The Hornsent were enamoured by the Crucible, said to be a place or state of being where life was blended together. The abilities of the Shaman formed the basis of horrific jarring rituals where rebirth was attempted by the Hornsent.

We can see three examples of Shamans and their descendants alongside trees, suggesting that this ability of theirs was not limited to humanoid life but could be applied to arboreal life too;

Within the Shaman Village is a tree, and within that tree is a woman*.*

In Leyndell, Marika created her Erdtree to be one of the holy focus’ of her Golden Order. (See this post for further musings on Marika and the Erdtree - https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/4e2WelKzY4)

In the far off Haligtree, Miquella cocooned himself within a tree and fed it with his blood*.*

The Hornsent holy city of Enir Ilim features golden trees that include twisted remains of human figures, the soil fertilised with spirit ash deposited by stone faces. If the trees created by the Hornsent here required a substance capable of fusing life together in a tree, then Shaman flesh presents an obvious candidate. In fact, I think we can argue that the Shaman were used in some way to create these trees as we find Red and White mushrooms surrounding the trees here - materials that can be used for the creation of pots in replacement of flesh, a nice environmental nod towards the jarring rituals of the Hornsent.

All of these examples, including the aforementioned corpse-fed root system sustaining the Erdtree itself, are acts of spiritual importance. The trees of Enir-Ilim are especially so as they make up a large portion of the structure and seem to represent aspects of the Crucible’s very nature by embodying the motifs of blended flesh and gold - showing that they might represent some kind of intermediary stage between the Erdtree and the Crucible.

My interpretation here is that these trees aren’t just decorative or symbolic, but are potentially a way to normalise and recreate the Crucible itself via sacred trees made from Shaman - a practise that gives another example of the Hornsent’s attempt to control the cycle of death and rebirth using the Shaman, and a spiritual precursor to the Erdtree itself.

I do believe that using logic similar to that presented in Bloodborne, where lower levels of a location serve to give insight into the past, can be applied to Belurat and Enir-Ilim specifically. Using this logic we may begin to see a timeline of Hornsent spiritual practises that lead to the Gates of Divinity, with the trees serving as probably the most important lynchpin between Hornsent and Golden Order religious practises related to death and rebirth.