r/EldenRingLoreTalk

Image 1 — Enir-Ilim and the Divine Gate were created using the same method, but maybe not by the same person
Image 2 — Enir-Ilim and the Divine Gate were created using the same method, but maybe not by the same person
Image 3 — Enir-Ilim and the Divine Gate were created using the same method, but maybe not by the same person
Image 4 — Enir-Ilim and the Divine Gate were created using the same method, but maybe not by the same person

Enir-Ilim and the Divine Gate were created using the same method, but maybe not by the same person

Someone once mentioned this to me, and I simply couldn't get it out of my head and started to think about it.

The first thing we notice when looking at the Divine Gate is the mass of bodies it is made of; however, Enir-Ilim is also made of human bodies, you can see this in the structures, the trees, and the pillars.

Both were created using the same method, but Enir-Ilim has a far superior finish and architecture designed; you can tell the creators wanted the place to be magnificent. The Divine Gate, on the other hand, is very raw and visceral, it looks like it was thrown together haphazardly.

This could be due to various reasons, perhaps haste; the Divine Gate is the most important part of Enir-Ilim, so it makes some sense that its creator was in a rush to finish it. I believe this is partially true, with just one exception.

I can't believe Divine Gate and Enir-Ilim were created by the same person; the two structures have differences that are far too great, the divine gate doesn't even look like a gate.

If you look closely at the DLC story trailer, when Marika climbs the stairs, you can see that the bodies were fresh, as if they had just been placed there. This brings me back to a thought I’ve had a few times: what purpose did the Hornsent have in mind for Marika?

Why did they ally in the past? Maybeeeee did Marika know how to use bodies to create the Divine Gate and do the Hornsents this favor, only to likely betray them later?

It is never stated that the Hornsent created Enir-Ilim; it could have existed long before them. While the architecture of Belurat and the Hornsent villages is similar, it is not identical. Perhaps because they didn't know how to build them using bodies and that is where Marika comes in to help.

That’s just a thought, of course; I’m still processing a few things. But tell me, what do you all think with that in mind? the information, not my delusions

u/Goodhunter465 — 6 hours ago

Related or no?

Is there any connection between the Godskins, Shamans and the Hornsent? The Godskin Noble's robe and the flesh inside the jar seems similar. Also Godskin Noble looks similar to Hornsent Inquisitor.

u/Broad_Card_7303 — 3 hours ago

tarnished and the gift of grace

Ive been confused by this since the day ive started playing. so we are a tarnished. someone whos lost the gift of grace. but marika returns the gift of grace to us. so that we can become elden lord.

how are we still tarnished if we have grace? how did we become tarnished? why does messmer say were bereft of light when we have the gift of grace?

i know were a tarnished but we have grace dont we? i mean we see the golden erdtree which is a sign of it. we see the golden lines on our map which is a sign of it.

i just am confused on the distinction of when we are a tarnished and when we are not a tarnished and how grace works in world? godfrey had his taken and he got banished to the badlands? but returned to test us. and somehow he has grace? due to his golden line pointing at us during the cutscene?

im lost on it all as you can see. any explanation would really help

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u/Sempernun- — 7 hours ago
▲ 5 r/EldenRingLoreTalk+1 crossposts

Some questions

Hello I have some questions to the lore experts

1- did metry lose connection to greater will after Elden beasts arrival or before?

2-how miquella becomes god at divine gate if greater will abandoned this world? Who gives him that godly powers?

3- what is actually a god means in Elden ring universe we see lots of gods? What divides them from other powerful beings

4-dlc says that greater will stopped sending messages from the start but in the Elden ring trailer it told that greater will abandoned after shattering?

5- if metyr is broken and severed (as she has a blade wound in her chest) why not send another finger mother to replace or fix your daughter doesnt the creator of the universe knows that keeping a broken and false vassal on lands between is not ideal for your golden order?

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u/OkGrapefruit3153 — 8 hours ago

Really confused and disappointed about drake knights

Drake knights have always been kind of a weird faction for me, even amongst other unseen factions. Like what does it mean that they do not speak a word "since birth"? Did they swear a vow of silence? Are they incapable of speech? Are they actually born of a father and a mother, or "birthed" in the same manner as the albinaurics and silver tears?

An order of silent knight that exists exclusively to hunt drakes is such a badass concept, and yet we know next to nothing about these guys. The only (kind of confimed?) drake knight we ever meet both in the base game and SoTE is Eleonora (because of her armour). All the other characters that are related to dragon communion are either described as "Drake Warriors" or "Partaker of Dragon Communion" or "Dragon Communion Warrior".

Maybe those terms are synonymous, but we clearly see that Igon, a "drake warrior" (Florissax) can speak (quite loudly too), which means he can't be a drake knight. Ancient dragon-man doesn't speak (though admittedly all of the invaders/minor bosses in the game don't), but he is a "dragon communion warrior" (Dragon-Hunter's Great Katana). In a setting where dragons play such a pivotal role, a faction created just to hunt them down is given... practically nothing in terms of lore, and one single representative that doesn't shed much light at all either.

My question is: Are there any other characters in the game, besides Eleonora, that's confirmed of heavily implied to be a drake knight? Are there any pieces of lore, other than their armour, about these knights other than their armour? And what do y'all make of the "since birth, the drake knights speak not a word" detail in the drake knight set description? Personally, I think that part suggests that the method of their birth is likely not conventional, as I don't think babies can swear vows of silence of their own volition.

u/Available-Face7568 — 15 hours ago

Who are the sorcerer rises named after?

I know it doesn't really have much bearing on anything important but like, why did fromsoft choose to have almost every rise be named after someone directly, usually whose only mention in the entire game is that name? Are they all just sorcerers/astrologers, highly respected but not important enough to have a conspectus or any mentions in item descriptions? Is there any significance to where the rises are located or to the names of thsoe who owned them?

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u/nathanbazingaling — 10 hours ago

The Purpose of Walking Mausoleums and Headless Demigods at the Finger Ruins

Architecture and Time Period

The Walking Mausoleums are giant structures adorned with Nox and early Erdtree Empire motifs, guarded by headless knights associated with Deathbirds. Let's explore some environmental evidence and possible reasons for their existence.

It is widely accepted that the Walking Mausoleums bear a striking resemblance to the architecture of the Nox Eternal Cities. This similarity isn't just about their outward appearance but also the chests found inside.

https://preview.redd.it/1dyf9lh5bfbh1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=0bd243046963d210019c9416a1e4cfd5d13eda27

Nox architecture heavily influenced Marika's early empire and was utilized in her early churches, which we can observe in the Land of Shadow. It is also present in the early empire columns that adorn the roads leading to Leyndell:

https://preview.redd.it/ni3239s7bfbh1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=b3331746df60ed57724caad658267e8ade1cb923

Additionally, the Mausoleums carry statues of the Saint Warrior—a figure that decorates Divine Bridges, Stormveil Castle, cathedrals, and (in its scholar form) some Carian architecture. Two can even be found in Nokstella.

Credit to u/GoriceXI/ for the screenshots

While some argue these statues may predate the Erdtree Empire, they are more likely a symbol of the early Erdtree era. The Divine Bridges were built by an Erdtree-Caria alliance. We can see Erdtree depictions on the bridge towers, along with two versions of the Saint statue. The scholar variant is most common in Liurnia, while the warrior variant is found in Leyndell and Stormveil. In Stormveil, it stands as part of a single ensemble alongside the Erdtree legionnaire statue and lions.

This motif also adorns the rampart between the walls of Leyndell. There was a colony of the Nameless Eternal City nearby, as well as the Fortified Manor where Serosh resided. The colony was too small to warrant such massive walls, and the Fortified Manor was itself meant for defense. It wouldn't make sense for Serosh to build a fortified structure in the middle of a city with walls kilometers away from it. Thus, we can safely conclude that the outer walls are part of a complex of statues depicting the Erdtree sprout, Tree Sentinels, and the Saint Warrior.

https://preview.redd.it/7mi9po8bbfbh1.png?width=2499&format=png&auto=webp&s=b53722c3d251c8e932ef111f0ca6375382ebd8c6

It's unclear whether this statue was incorporated into any newer Radagon-era constructions, but it notably wasn't removed, unlike what likely happened to Godfrey's statues. Concept art of the Grand Lifts shows that a statue of Godfrey was originally planned for them. Most likely, it was cut from the final game because Radagon systematically cleared out most of Godfrey's statues, leaving the only prominent one in Stormveil Castle—a stronghold of his last descendants. However, the Saint Warrior statue was evidently just a broad symbol of the empire, much like the Tree Sentinels, rather than being heavily associated with Godfrey personally, which is why it was spared.

https://preview.redd.it/e4jslufcbfbh1.png?width=1640&format=png&auto=webp&s=89a2d89f22ab6d812ff70597cb3ac772c0fc2baf

These architectural clues might place the creation of the mausoleums in the Godfrey era. But what purpose could they have served back then? One idea I had was that they might have been sacrifices to the Two Fingers. There are exactly seven mausoleums in the game, and there are seven known Two Fingers: five atop the Divine Towers, one in the Roundtable Hold, and one hiding from Ranni. This could have been part of the deal Marika made with the Two Fingers when they pronounced her an Empyrean. However, this is where the theory hits a dead end, as it fails to cleanly connect to the eclipses, the ghosts attached to the mausoleums' legs, the bells, or the fact that they are constantly walking.

Instead, I propose that the Mausoleums are actually from a much later era, despite their architectural style. First, although we see Nox influences in Erdtree architecture, it is always derived from the above-ground colonies like Lower Leyndell and Sellia, and never from the underground Nox cities themselves. Yet, the mausoleum architecture clearly most resembles Nokstella, not Lower Leyndell. Second, we never see Walking Mausoleums in the Land of Shadow. I think this strongly suggests they were created after the crusade against the Hornsent, which happened closer to the end of Godfrey's era.

Remembrance Duplication

When we slay demigods and other powerful entities, we receive their Remembrances. It is said that these are "hewn into the Erdtree." This feels like a direct reference to real-world Norse mythology, where the three Norns sat at the foot of Yggdrasil and carved the fates of every living being into its bark or roots—dictating their birth, how they would live, and the manner of their death. These were the inescapable runes of fate, binding even the gods.

https://preview.redd.it/3qk2af1ebfbh1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=928509d47ba38471873e8514a051cb38ab4adb17

Indeed, in Elden Ring, the Erdtree now controls the fates of men, usurping the stars:

>"During the age of the Erdtree, Carian astrology withered on the vine. The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the Golden Order."

The Erdtree seems to automatically record the defeat of a demigod by our hand, as well as the great deeds they accomplished in life. The headless demigods inside the mausoleums, however, lack an identity. A person's face is the most distinct part of their body—it is what anchors their identity. Without a head, the demigod lying in the mausoleum isn't just headless; they are nameless. It's not just us, the players, who don't know which specific person lies in a given mausoleum. I believe the purpose of this ritual is to fool the Erdtree so that it cannot record the fate of this specific person—it doesn't know if they died or in what manner. This is what allows us to duplicate Remembrances: we trick the Erdtree into believing the nameless demigod in the mausoleum is actually Godrick, Morgott, or whoever else, allowing us to get their Remembrance hewn into the Erdtree's bark a second time.

Eclipse

Of course, Remembrance duplication wasn't the original intended use of these headless demigods. It was a deliberate ritual to confuse the Erdtree—a way to kill a demigod without the Erdtree officially recording their death. But why? We get very few clues about these specific demigods, but one comes from a wandering spirit:

>"The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child."

As the Eclipse Crest Heater Shield tells us, these demigods are soulless, and the eclipsed sun is their symbol. Destined Death is highly dangerous to them, and the symbol of the eclipsed sun is meant to aid the headless mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay.

https://preview.redd.it/zpilb37hbfbh1.png?width=1921&format=png&auto=webp&s=aafa128e7e462d5d2845a0dea022d9d140549af7

Furthermore, the soulless demigods are expected to eventually be revived, as indicated by the description of Lhutel the Headless, and the ghost in Castle Sol:

>"Ohh great sun! Frigid sun of Sol! Surrender yourself to the eclipse! Grant life to the soulless bones!"

https://preview.redd.it/x6frquwfbfbh1.png?width=2510&format=png&auto=webp&s=d6cfae50848596383821449a2ff8419793a29db7

While Destined Death is considered a grave threat to these demigods, the Mausoleum Knights explicitly ornament themselves with wings harking back to the Deathbirds. They willingly beheaded themselves, and there is an ancient axe used for sacrifices to the Outer God of Death, which, judging by its form, likely involved beheading. Thus, the Mausoleum Knights seemingly revered the Deathbirds (and, by extension, the Outer God of Death), but deeply feared Destined Death itself.

https://preview.redd.it/9897r6pibfbh1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=a79d137b68f8bfdef72a889c7b720d0712cc512e

Thanks to u/RagnaBreaker for putting together most of the evidence.

The True Purpose of the Ritual

Marika threatened her children with becoming sacrifices if they failed to make something of themselves:

>"Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."

Considering the soulless demigods are described as her "unwanted children," it makes sense that they are the very same demigods who failed this ultimatum. But when exactly did this happen? In the original Japanese text of Marika's echo, she uses the word もう (), which translates to "already" or "now": "Demigods, my beloved children. You can now become anything."

This highlights a distinct shift in attitude and circumstances. Before this point, her children didn't have to fight for survival. They obviously couldn't become true Gods, as Marika held that monopoly. But something changed, and now they not only can, but must strive for it. I believe this speech was given shortly after the Night of the Black Knives. Marika was driven to the brink and eventually shattered the Elden Ring, but we don't know exactly how much time passed between the assassination and the Shattering. Judging by the ancient tablets and scrolls chaotically hoarded in her bedchamber, we can clearly see her frantically searching for ways to revive Godwyn and fix the Golden Order.

https://preview.redd.it/eragz4ikbfbh1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=1ee72655993804a080557accb034ac51a42c4a23

I theorize that the Walking Mausoleums were one of her desperate attempts to revive Godwyn. To avoid becoming the sacrifices required for this ritual, her other children had to fight to prove their worth. This is likely the period when Miquella departed to grow the Haligtree, having been permitted by his mother to explore such heretical alternatives.

The core point of this ritual was for the sacrificed demigods to cross into the spirit realm and search for Godwyn's soul. They were promised that they would be revived and returned alongside Godwyn when an eclipse finally occurred. For whatever reason, that eclipse never came to pass. The eclipse appears to be a cosmic event where the boundary between the material and spirit realms thins, allowing spirits to cross over more easily.

To cheat the Erdtree and bypass standard death, the chosen demigods needed to be beheaded, stripping them of their identities. The same logic applies to their guards, the Mausoleum Knights, who beheaded themselves so they could walk the physical realm as spirits without fully passing on.

To organize a thorough search for Godwyn's soul, these mausoleums were scattered all across the Lands Between.

In Elden Ring, sound is a powerful concept capable of crossing the boundary between realms. We summon Torrent using a whistle. Red Albinaurics and Tibia Mariners summon giant skeletons by blowing into horns and producing deep sounds.

https://preview.redd.it/nmwb73zlbfbh1.png?width=2636&format=png&auto=webp&s=fa8d416bd4a654cf8ab0217cf4dfa819f0c4dd04

The mausoleums constantly ring their giant bells because they are acting as beacons, calling out to the souls of the headless demigods. Once those souls located Godwyn in the spirit realm, they were supposed to follow the sound of the bells back to their physical bodies, slipping through the open boundary on the day of the eclipse. The bells are massive enough to be heard from miles away, and the mausoleums endlessly walk their routes to ensure the demigods could hear the tolling no matter where they were in the spirit realm.

However, this relentless ringing has a side effect: it attracts other wandering souls, who follow the sound and cling to the mausoleums' legs. As for why breaking these skulls stops the mausoleums from walking, I believe the answer is purely mechanical and lies in the realm of game design.

Nox's Part of the Deal

The Noxian influence seems to extend beyond just architecture. In Nightreign, Mausoleum Knights and other headless creatures inhabit Noklateo, another Eternal City. I wouldn't consider this hard lore evidence—searching for the literal reasons they are in Noklateo—but rather a strong thematic connection that the level designers maintained after reading FromSoftware's internal lore bible.

https://preview.redd.it/afsoglqnbfbh1.png?width=3840&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec342227bdf840b46fbac34f0378edfa1f761178

It seems highly likely that the concept for such a gruesome ritual originally came from the Nox. We don't see overt signs of Deathbird veneration in the Eternal Cities, but such practices were long forgotten and actively persecuted by the Erdtree Empire. It makes more sense that the ancient culture of the Nox, rather than orthodox Erdtree priests, dug up this archaic ritual and suggested it to Marika. One subtle clue supporting this connection might be found in the game's internal files, where the Tibia Mariners are named "Nightlord's Kin".

But why would Nox architecture be prominently featured on the mausoleums if the scions of the Eternal City were the ones who orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives? Let's remember that the Nox cities were not razed to the ground or invaded immediately following Godwyn's assassination. We've seen Marika's brutal capacity to wage crusades against factions that fall out of her favor, so why did she spare the Eternal Cities? While Nokron was hidden, contact with Nokstella was clearly established, given the Saint statue located there. I theorize that the Black Knife Assassins acted completely on their own, and the official leaders of the Eternal Cities hastily renounced them. Offering this mausoleum ritual to help Marika retrieve Godwyn's soul could have been their way of apologizing and proving their opposition to the assassins.

But Aren't the Headless Demigods the Victims of the Night of the Black Knives?

It is a popular community theory that the headless demigods inside the mausoleums are the other victims of the Night of the Black Knives. However, one major clue suggests this might not be the case: they are explicitly called Marika's "unwanted children." Why would Marika organize a massive, elaborate ritual for their return if they were unwanted? Were her threats about sacrificing the children who "amounted to naught" completely empty?

Furthermore, Godwyn was buried at the roots of the Erdtree, while the headless demigods are contained within wandering stone structures. If they all perished in the same event, what explains this discrepancy in their burial methods? If these deaths happened at different points in the timeline, and there was a specific purpose behind being beheaded, it explains the environmental storytelling much better, in my opinion.

Headless Sacrifices at the Finger Ruins

This brings us to the headless figures we find at two of the Finger Ruins in the Land of Shadow. These are evidently much earlier victims of a similar ritual, likely serving as the dark inspiration for the Walking Mausoleums. However, there is one large distinction: not only are their heads missing, but their fingers have been cut off as well.

https://preview.redd.it/4ayy8xfpbfbh1.png?width=1985&format=png&auto=webp&s=680ad4384d624f3b01586146cef615698c9d4a29

If beheading is a way to dispose of a person's identity and hide their death from the Erdtree, what does severing their fingers represent?

>"You, please, I can read them. Your fingers, please, your fingers..."

https://preview.redd.it/l5ire4uqbfbh1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=acb42b2c568561631fceca9c07939251566c4249

While reading palms is a common fortune-telling trope in the real world, the world of Elden Ring has an entire caste of Finger Readers who divine your future and your fate by reading your fingers. If you sever the fingers, you dispose of the fate.

The soulless demigods in the Walking Mausoleums lost their identities, but they still had a duty to fulfill. They had a future—to return with Godwyn's soul and be revived. But the sacrifices at the Finger Ruins lost their fates entirely. Not only were their deaths and identities erased from the world, but their entire existence was wiped out. They never died; they were never born; they simply ceased to be. Everything about them is erased. They don't need Walking Mausoleums, knightly guards, or bells because they are not meant to be revived.

There is strong inspiration from Japanese mythology and pop-culture at play here. In Japanese folklore, people can turn into lingering spirits after death if they have an unfulfilled duty or wish. They are trapped in the material world and can only pass into the spirit realm after fulfilling their goal, which is tragic in its own right. However, they also possess energy cores that they can transfer to a living person—for example, to revive them. If they do this, they vanish completely from the world, and all memory of their earthly existence disappears with them. We see this trope in a lot of anime and manga (I'll just mention DanDaDan as a recent example without spoiling it). This concept was pretty rare in actual ancient texts, but was popularized in modern ghost stories. Miyazaki is not shy of modern pop culture inspirations, and not just real myths, as I explored in the usage of the word Saint in Elden Ring.

https://preview.redd.it/1b0r51asbfbh1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=54bd93414048a1ab2519b808a868cc12a9e50d95

As a quick aside: Kitsune (Japanese fox spirits) possess jewels that act as these energy cores. They are most often called 宝珠の玉 (hoju no tama, wish-fulfilling jewel); however, in Miyagi prefecture, they are called 星の玉 (hoshi no tama, star jewel). This could serve as the inspiration for Glintstone Cores in the game. That might be reaching a bit too far, but it's a fascinating connection.

https://preview.redd.it/thz1vymtbfbh1.png?width=1196&format=png&auto=webp&s=38018686c0ed6a302febec63586599d08e4e66ad

So, what was the actual point of this cruel sacrifice at the Finger Ruins? It is likely directly connected to Metyr and the Elden Beast. There are three Finger Ruins in total, named Rhia (referencing Rhea, mother of Greek gods and Dactyls), Dheo (from the Latin Deo - god), and Miyr (likely from the Irish méar, meaning finger). The Rhia and Dheo ruins have blue and golden sparks hovering over them on the map, respectively, as well as in actual locations (credit to u/Crypticnewt for spotting it).

https://preview.redd.it/17xvbsxubfbh1.png?width=1001&format=png&auto=webp&s=34b381ec118438e06cbbd4f16de603735b85ebe4

These colors are distinctly associated with Metyr and the Elden Beast. It is a glaring mystery why there are three Finger Ruins but only two known major cosmic vassal entities. If the etymology holds up, the central Miyr ruins could be where the Two Fingers themselves initially landed. Currently, Metyr resides beneath Miyr, but she may have originally landed in the Rhia ruins and relocated later. The grievous wound she bears might be the reason she needed to hide. The community heavily associates the Fingerslayer Blade with Metyr's wound and her subsequent hiding. While we can't find hard evidence of Nox involvement at the ruins, the sacrifices were clearly made before Metyr relocated, and the Nox later partially reenacted this exact ritual with the Walking Mausoleums. Could the Nox have been involved in the original Finger Ruin sacrifices as well?

https://preview.redd.it/boibdbfwbfbh1.png?width=2557&format=png&auto=webp&s=684d13897267f7cf3d214a29280bb42a9132448c

Metyr seems to reside in a spirit/parallel realm, as we must blow into the giant hanging bells at the ruins to reach her. As discussed earlier, sound is the key to calling across realms. We don't fight her in the physical space of the Miyr ruins, but in a localized pocket dimension. Torrent's whistle is made out of human finger bones, and we blow into a giant, finger-shaped bell to connect with Metyr.

https://preview.redd.it/ax3cuzwxbfbh1.png?width=1976&format=png&auto=webp&s=8f645102c146341023aaf98931dc846b9bd29417

I believe these headless, fingerless sacrifices were made to pull Metyr and the Elden Beast closer to the physical realm, if not completely into it. This could have been done to inflict the wound on Metyr, or to harness the Elden Beast to forge the Elden Ring. Given the gravity of the ritual, the victims must have been powerful figures—likely at the level of demigods themselves.

At this point, I don't have enough hard evidence to make further assumptions, but I hope this opens up the discussion surrounding the headless sacrifices found in the Finger Ruins!

TL;DR:

The Walking Mausoleums were part of a ritual—suggested by the Nox to Marika following the Night of the Black Knives—designed to retrieve Godwyn's soul from the spirit realm. It involved beheading "unwanted" demigods so the Erdtree wouldn't formally record their deaths, sending them into the spirit realm to search for Godwyn, and calling them back via giant bells on the day of an eclipse. The Nox were inspired by an even more ancient sacrifice made at the Finger Ruins to connect with cosmic entities (Metyr and the Elden Beast). Those original victims had their heads and fingers severed, sacrificing not just their identities, but their very fates, leaving no memory of them in the world.

P.S. Thank you for reading through all of this! I've posted a lot of theories in this sub, but nothing with this volume of new lore connections that I haven't seen discussed elsewhere. I'll probably post smaller tidbits here and there in the future, but I doubt I'll tackle anything of this scale again. To be honest, I was a bit intimidated by the amount of evidence I had to organize for this one, which is why I was engaging in some productive procrastination by posting my other theories in the meantime!

u/SolidAlloy — 17 hours ago

What is the Flowerstone Gavel actually hinting at?

I've barely seen any discussion about the Flowerstone Gavel, even though it feels like it's pointing toward something much bigger.

It's described as an ancient flower, with its four petals and central core explicitly highlighted. More interestingly, it doesn't generate the ancient dragons' red lightning, it calls it down from above, almost like a conduit or lightning rod.

Then there's Dragon's Calorbloom, which blooms only once from the hearts of those who repeatedly partook of Dragon Communion.

This also seems to fit a broader pattern. Miranda Flowers, Varre's Bouquet, Bloodroses, Fulgurblooms, Fire Blossoms, Bloodbuds, Nectarblood Buds... throughout Elden Ring, supernatural forces repeatedly manifest through plants. Dragon Communion even culminates in a flower blooming from the heart.

So what exactly is the Flowerstone Gavel hinting at?

Why are dragons and flowers linked so consistently? Is the Gavel simply symbolic, or is it pointing toward a deeper biological or cosmological relationship?

It also makes me wonder about the Shamans. They're closely associated with trees and plant life, while Dragon Communion literally culminates in a flower. Are these just recurring motifs, or are dragons, flora, and the Shamans fundamentally connected?

u/Saltkin7 — 23 hours ago

i have a few lore questions about the eternal cities

  1. what are all those shriveled up corpse things everywhere

  2. who are the zombie things (like the greatshield soldiers for example) and then to add to that are the nox necromancers?

  3. why are there so few nox did they get decimated by some event or were there always so few?

  4. whats their conection the sellia

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u/ilico_ili — 1 day ago

How much do you think Mohg actually knew about Miquella's plans?

Just in your opinion. I know there's no real answer, but what do you infer from what is there?

He knew Miquella was trying to become a god. Do you think he knew about the Age of Compassion? Obviously he didn't know about the use of his corpse or he wouldn't have been waiting for Miquella to come back to him. He clearly thinks he's just waiting a length of time for Miquella to become a god, he also seems to think that offering blood to the cocoon will eventually wake him from the cocoon.

I'm just wondering if he knew of the Age of Compassion and that was supposed to somehow be part of his "dynasty", like Miquella and Mohg were going to work together and mesh their ideals or if Miquella just straight up was like "yeah, a dynasty of blood is fine" and Mohg was under the impression that Miquella was coming back to be God of his dynasty, with no knowledge of the Age of Compassion. Miquella seems pretty forthright with everyone he interacts with, everyone mentions how kind and gentle he is. Even Ansbach. So it makes me wonder if Mohg knew him that way as well.

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u/Hot-Mood-1778 — 1 day ago

Why Miquella and Malenia are missing opposite arms

Miquella and Malenia are missing opposite arms, and in the case of Miquella, this is especially confusing: why is his ascended deified form, missing an arm?

Miquella and Malenia are missing opposite arms

Elden Ring's metaphysics were heavily inspired by Kabbalah's Tree of Life.

The Tree runs on two opposing "pillars": a right pillar of mercy and expansion, a left pillar of severity and restraint, held in balance by a middle. Miquella and Malenia each represent one side of these pillars, split into two bodies -- twins who are each one half of a whole.

Chesed / Miquella

Miquella embodies Chesed, usually understood as boundless kindness, the unconditional love of the divine. It is expansive giving, overflowing benevolence. Esoteric writers also associate Chesed with abundance--the great rune associated with Miquella.

Crucially: Chesed is associated with the right arm.

Gevurah / Malenia

Gevurah is often translated as severity, might, strength, or judgment, the necessary "no," the power to set and hold a boundary, associated with the left arm. Malenia is that in every sense.

The sword is Gevurah's classical emblem, so "Blade of Miquella" reads almost as a translation of "the Gevurah of Miquella." She is his cutting edge, his sword-arm, the faculty of severity walking beside the god of mercy.

Her defining strength is presented as an interior discipline: what lets her hold the rot at bay is, in the game's own words, "the dignity, the sense of self, that allowed her to resist the call of the scarlet rot." Not power over the rot — self-possession against it. Boundary held from the inside. That is the Gevurah virtue stated positively, exactly as the outline of her character keeps stating it.

Where Miquella Fails

In a balanced Tree (one with both Chesed and Geburah) Chesed is a virtue: love and abundance checked and shaped by Gevurah, the severity on the opposite pillar.

When it runs unchecked , mercy and growth with no severity to bound them, giving that refuses every limit. When Miquella ascends he declares: "Beginning here, love encompasses all," and "No living thing will be denied, no deed censured." Not just love, but love that denies nothing and censures nothing, mercy with every boundary deliberately removed.

Kabbalistic teaching warns against this exact configuration. Love that embraces all has to compel the unwilling, because a universal embrace cannot survive a single free refusal.

So unbounded mercy has to erase the possibility of "no." And that's precisely what Miquella does: his followers are bound to him by charm, and when anyone refused him, he overrode the refusal.

The teaching on Chesed is that unrestrained giving destroys the recipient's selfhood: someone who lives entirely as the beneficiary of another's boundless largesse "loses his own identity--he becomes a vessel of the benefactor."

Gevurah is the remedy. Severity is the "left hand" that pushes back and says "stand on your own two feet," the force that lets the recipient keep a self of their own instead of dissolving into the giver.

We are shown this -- quite literally -- because Miquella is missing the left arm, missing the Gevurah that would temper his love and kindness.

Where Malenia Fails

Kabbalah teaching is blunt about this as well: severity/restraint without love or mercy is indiscriminate cruelty.

That is the scarlet rot exactly. It no longer tells friend from foe, consuming her enemies, her allies, and Malenia herself.

She is "Malenia the Severed", the one who cut off her right arm, the very Chesed arm, that could temper the unmitigated indiscriminate severity of the scarlet rot.

These failures mirror each other

  • Miquella's mercy stops distinguishing the willing from the unwilling, and embraces everyone whether they consent or not.
  • Malenia's severity stops distinguishing friend from foe, and consumes everyone whether they deserve it or not.

Judgment without mercy and mercy without judgment fail in the same way, by losing the ability to discriminate.

Each twin possesses what the other one lacks. Miquella has infinite acceptance and no capacity to say "no"; Malenia is nothing but the capacity to say "no," with no softness to aim it. They are two halves of one integrated person — mercy that can still set a boundary, severity that can still show mercy, split into two bodies and never reconciled.

We are shown this quite literally. Each is missing the arm -- the symbolic portion of the body -- that represents the quality each lacks.

With this understanding, this line about Radahn now also has new context:

>

Miquella is saying Radahn posses BOTH strength and kindness -- united together. The very aspects split between Miquella and Malenia, which is what makes them stand 'in stark contrast'.

So Miquella is drawn to Radahn because he sees an integrated self, someone possessing both his kindness, and his sister's strength (the quality he lacks).

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u/npcompl33t — 1 day ago

Why do people believe Mohg wanted to create his own age?

This has been an argument I've seen constantly regarding Mohg and speculation on his ultimate goal. Many people seem to believe Mohg wanted to create the equivalent of an Age of Blood and had the ambition to embody the Lord role to (the assumption is) Miquella's hypothetical god of blood. But this seems a lot more complicated in the lore at least in my mind...

This situation is definitely complicated by Miquella's involvement and their likely contrasting goals so it's very hard to decipher what Mohg actually wanted vs how Miquella may have influenced and change his goals to serve him, but it seems more likely to me that Mohg becoming a lord was more aligned with Miquella's desires than his own. There's nothing to indicate they didn't share this aspect of their aspirations and simply diverged elsewhere (the blood vs compassion part is a pretty bug one) but I feel like it's suspicious, given Miquella's seeming intended use for Mohg as his consort ('s body).

Then there is the often ignored aspect of "Mohgwyn Dynasty". If Mohg wanted to create an age of blood, why would he simply not call it that? If Ranni called her age of stars the "Lunar dynasty", that would give off a very different impression to what her aspirations are, and likely mean something different in practice too. Why call it something so different if it's intended to just be a continuation of the same system under different management? This is the biggest thing that bothers me the most. Could there be a different explanation as to why he's chosen to do this? What might that be? Or maybe the explanation has more to do with Fromsoft trying to confuse us or make the story more layered?

While I don't know japanese and can't go further than this, his moniker of "Lord" also appears to be a different word from the one used to describe the Elden Lord in the original text meaning the word lord in this context isn't meant to connect the two.

Really curious to think how others feel about this.

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u/idk_ausername864f — 1 day ago
▲ 99 r/EldenRingLoreTalk+1 crossposts

The Crucible Knights: Hesiod's Bronze Warriors

>"Their armor was of bronze, and their houses of bronze, and of bronze were their implements."
"Great was their strength and unconquerable the arms which grew from their shoulders on their strong limbs."
"a brazen race, sprung from ash-trees"
Hesiod's Works and Days

That's not a description of the Crucible Knights. It's nearly 3,000 years old.

It's Hesiod. Around 700 BC, the Greek poet described the ages of man, gold, silver, and bronze. And the bronze race is unlike any other. They didn't just use bronze. Their armour was bronze, their homes were bronze, their tools were bronze, there was no iron yet in the world.

Hesiod says the bronze race came from ash/oak trees, and we can find a Crucible Knight with their eyes locked on what appears to be a bronze ash/oak tree.

That's the Crucible Knights. The bronze warriors who live for combat, who live for the crucible of life.

The Crucible Knights are Hesiod's bronze warriors, reforged in the Lands Between.

Hesiod was building a myth of decline, gold, silver, bronze, heroes, iron, each race worse than the last, each further from the divine. And roughly three hundred years later, Plato picked up that same blueprint and used it to build his ideal state, the Aristocracy.

In the Republic, Plato tells his own myth of metals. Gold souls to rule, silver to guard, bronze labour. It's Hesiod's ages, collapsed into a single society, standing still instead of decaying. And who sits at the top of that hierarchy? Not a bronze warrior. Not even a silver guardian. A gold soul, fixed, incorruptible, and unchanging. A philosopher-king whose worth comes precisely from not degrading, not shifting, not becoming something else.

That's Marika. An immutable god who always remains in her own form presiding over a Golden Order built using the same blueprint Hesiod and Plato laid down.

Interestingly, Plato also has five ages of man. Aristocracy, ruled by an immutable golden god. Timocracy, a warrior nation led by spirit and combat. Oligarchy, ruled by the wealthy, where money replaces honor as the measure of worth. Democracy, where every desire is given equal voice and the soul fragments into competing appetites. And finally tyranny, where one appetite conquers all the others and calls itself freedom.

The first two ages sound just like the Golden Order and the Hornsent culture.

u/ferrumtitan — 2 days ago

Why Mohg does it

It's clearly established throughout the DLC that Miquella's charm does not compel action, but rather inhibits it.

For example, Hornsent remains skeptical and conditionally loyal to Miquella. His tendency to carry out vengeance against us is suppressed, but not the resentment.

Likewise, Thiollier remains devoted to St. Trina, and doesn't present any strong feelings towards Miquella. His focus is mimicking her velvet. However he is prevented finding and possibly rescuing her.

So, then, why is Mohg feeding blood to the cocoon if not compelled to?

Simply, because it is a plausible means of achieving the goal, as long as Miquella hides critical information from him.

The Divine Gate is, after all, a stockpile of the dead that produces gods.

In short, Mohg is creating a new Divine Gate to allow Miquella to ascend.

But it is not possible because if all that was needed is the amassing of blood/bodies, every Graven Mass, Living Jar, Eternal City, Tutelary Deity, Minor Erdtree, the Abyssal Serpent, and Rykard would be an upstart gate.

There's something specific to the gate that only Miquella knows, and by withholding that, and perhaps suppressing Mohg's ability to realize it, Mohg is indefinitely waiting to be killed, just as Radahn is.

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u/SamsaraKarma — 2 days ago

Is there any evidence in Game , that mogh was not under an enchantment before kidnapping miquella?

I know it’s probably a dumb question but I keep seeing lore video shorts by people saying “ mogh was miquella-ested he didn’t want to share his bed!” And while I believe he is under a spell when we encounter him , I don’t believe he was when he kidnapped miquella. It’s important to me to know if there’s evidence because his mind control is used by these “lore theorist” to claim mogh is an innocent victim who didn’t lust for power or uhh …you know

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u/Big_Career5281 — 2 days ago

Black Flame's Hidden Colors

Following my last post where we explored the furtive colors of the Godslayer's Greatsword, I would like to present the inconspicuous colors found within Black Flame itself: purple and green.

Zoomed in Black Flame from GSGS

Some different examples of this phenomenon, starting with the Black Flame Incantation:

Black Flame

Godslayer's Greatsword:

GSGS

GSGS

Black Flame attacks from Godskins:

Black Flame Tornado

Iji (Dead):

Iji's Hand

Gargoyle's Blackblade:

Attack on Troll

Lamenter's Mask transformation:

During Transformation

I did testing with a few weapons that deal damage with the Rune of Death and could not find these two colors that appear with Black Flame specifically.

Attack from Black blade

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u/metafauxric — 1 day ago