u/impersonal_process

Puppets in the hands of luck

Just a couple of minutes back I had no idea that my throat would play up and I would be coughing at that particular juncture in my speech. Did I know in advance? I didn't. But it happened. You yawn, you cough, you sneeze, you breathe, you ingest food and you find it digested. Do you know how things are happening in the digestive tract, you don't know that. But it's just happening.

Similarly, decision-making. We feel we are deciding matters, but whether you go back to the classic Vedant or you return to modern science, even that which we call our conscious decisions are actually just chemical games being played out in form of thoughts and emotions.

We love to say “I thought this” or “I felt this”. The thing is, there is just the thought and just the feeling. There is no thinker, no feeler. There is just something happening in a biological, chemical way within. And mistakenly, you start taking ownership or credit for it. You start saying “Oh, I felt this way.” Did you choose to feel that way? No, it was just chance and we all are actually puppets.

How many of you choose your thoughts? Well, thoughts come and thoughts decide your choices, right? When you have to make a choice, it is the thought that is the chooser but did you choose your thought in the first place?

Somebody comes to you with some idea or some topic and you say “Let me think over it.” At that moment, do you know what you are going to think about the matter? No. Thought is largely autonomous. And thought has no capacity to see where it is coming from. Because thought has no capacity to see where it's coming from, we mistakenly believe that the thought is coming from someplace called the “I”. No, the thought is not coming from a place called the “I”, the thought is simply coming from hormones, chemicals.

That's where the thought is coming from. So, we all indeed are puppets. Whatsoever is happening in life is just a chemical game. That sounds quite depressing, right?

Acharya Prashant

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u/impersonal_process — 13 days ago

Is everything a matter of luck, or can we choose otherwise?

A person desires, reasons, and exercises restraint. If we introduce an additional subject independent of these processes, we must explain why they prefer one decision over another. If that preference stems from their characteristics, the question of the origins of those characteristics remains. If it arises by chance, chance alone does not establish greater control. Does this prove that human decisions are the result of luck whose origins are determined solely by heredity and circumstances? That, given these causes, the person could not have chosen otherwise?

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u/impersonal_process — 15 days ago

Thomas Metzinger on the delusions of free will and moral responsibility

Imagine that we have created a society of robots. They would lack freedom of the will in the traditional sense, because they are causally determined automata. But they would have conscious models of them-selves and of other automata in their environment, and these models would let them interact with others and control their own behavior. Imagine that we now add two features to their internal self-and other-person models: first, the erroneous belief that they (and everybody else) are responsible for their own actions; second, an “ideal observer” representing group interests, such as rules of fairness for reciprocal, altruistic interactions. What would this change? Would our robots develop new causal properties just by falsely believing in their own freedom of the will? The answer is yes; moral aggression would become possible, because an entirely new level of competition would emerge - competition about who fulfills the interests of the group best, who gains moral merit, and so on. You could now raise your own social status by accusing others of being immoral or by being an efficient hypocrite. A whole new level of optimizing behavior would emerge. Given the right boundary conditions, the complexity of our experimental robot society would suddenly explode, though its internal coherence would remain. It could now begin to evolve on a new level. The practice of ascribing moral responsibility - even if based on delusional phenomenal self-model - would create a decisive, and very real, functional property: Group interests would be come more effective in each robot’s behavior. The price for egotism would rise. What would happen to our experimental robot society if we then downgraded its members’ self-models to the previous version - perhaps by bestowing insight?

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u/impersonal_process — 22 days ago

Free Will: Why are we held responsible for the products of a mind and circumstances we did not choose?

The question is where the reasoning apparatus itself and the data it processes came from before it reasoned about anything at all, and why we should be held responsible for the product that this reasoning apparatus produces?

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u/impersonal_process — 23 days ago

Can we retain compatibilist relational free will while rejecting basic desert?

Derk Pereboom explains the “quarantine model” as follows: we isolate a carrier of a disease not because we morally blame them for the infection, but because quarantine protects against future harm, regardless of how the infection originated. By the same logic, reward and punishment become not judgments of metaphysical desert, but calibrating signals.

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u/impersonal_process — 29 days ago

Compatibilism refuses to chase a ghost

Compatibilism refuses to chase a ghost. It makes no apologies for the will being part of the causal order; it does not seek a secret exit from nature through which to smuggle a “true” self, untouched by its own history. It asks something more modest: what is left for the will once we accept that it, like all living things, is woven into causality?

Quite a lot, as it turns out. The will can be free in a relational sense - not as an underived ultimate source springing from nowhere, but as the capacity of a stream of experiences, desires, deliberations, intentions, and actions to arise and continually transform itself through causal relations rather than despite them. The difference between me and a stone is not that I stand outside causality while it stands within it. The difference lies in the architecture of causality itself: in me, it works through deliberation, through weighing reasons against one another, through the capacity of yesterday’s experience to rewrite tomorrow’s desire. A stone listens to nothing. I - although I am myself the product of causes I did not choose - listen, weigh, and adjust. This listening is not an illusion simply because it has its own causal history.

This is no triumphant liberation. Rather, it is a sober rescue of something we would otherwise needlessly discard. If “freedom” meant only complete independence from cause and effect, we would lose our right to enjoy even that more modest yet real release from things that would otherwise oppress us: from external coercion, from another’s will, from blindly operating instinct, unexamined and uninterrupted. This more modest freedom does not save us from everything. But it leaves us with a bearable life in which we can still discover, wander, and enjoy ourselves as we move forward, guided but not erased by the threads of causality.

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u/impersonal_process — 1 month ago
▲ 9 r/determinism+1 crossposts

Everyone speaks about free will from a state of mind they have been causally led to

If it is causally inevitable that you will bring about events in accordance with your goals, motives, and interests, then you are not an alternative to inevitability - your action is the way the inevitable outcome comes about.

When we say that an event is causally inevitable, it is easy to imagine inevitability as an external force that stands opposed to the person and imposes a particular outcome upon them. On one side, there seems to be the person with their goals, motives, and interests, and on the other, inevitability compelling them to act. But this opposition is misleading. Causal inevitability is not a separate entity that uses the person as an instrument. It is the very continuity of the process within which a person comes into being, thinks, desires, decides, and acts. If, under the given conditions, it was inevitable that you would perform a particular action, this does not mean that the action was not yours. It means that the causes produced the outcome precisely through you.

It is perfectly meaningful to say, “I caused this.” If I open the window because the room is stuffy, my action causes the air in the room to change. The window would not have opened without the movement of my hand, and my hand would not have moved without my intention. But the intention did not appear out of nowhere either. It arose from my sensation of heat, my desire for comfort, my understanding of how to open the window, and the absence of a stronger motive to remain where I was. I am the cause in the immediate sense, but I am not the uncaused first source of that cause.

The person, therefore, is not an alternative to inevitability. They are one of its conditions. The inevitable outcome does not occur despite their goals, motives, and interests, but through them. If a doctor saves a patient because their knowledge, compassion, and professional training prompt them to act, causal inevitability does not render their participation meaningless. On the contrary, it includes that participation. The outcome is inevitable precisely because this particular person, with this character and these abilities, found themselves in this situation and responded in the way their particular makeup disposed them to respond. If the doctor had not been there, or had lacked the necessary knowledge, the outcome might have been different. Causal inevitability does not mean that events occur independently of us. That would be fatalism. It means that what we do also belongs to the chain of causes determining what will happen.

Everyone speaks from a state of mind to which they have been causally led. The paradox is that a person can be causally led to believe that they have not been causally led to their beliefs.

Inevitability, therefore, does not merely operate through our views, thoughts, and actions. It manifests itself both as belief in free will and as its rejection, both as an argument and as resistance to that argument. We do not choose which idea will persuade us independently of everything we are at the moment we encounter it. If someone comes to believe in free will, that belief is the way prior causes have manifested themselves in their consciousness. If someone else ceases to believe in it, their disbelief is another outcome of the same causal history of the world.

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u/impersonal_process — 1 month ago

Determinism–Fatalism Without Free Will

Fatalism claims, roughly, that certain events will occur regardless of what we do. No one wants to suffer, lose a loved one, fall ill, or die a senseless death. Nevertheless, a certain number of people will die in road accidents this year. Someone will learn that they have prostate cancer. Someone will have a child with Down syndrome. One person will be fired, another will lose their home, a third will experience unexpected happiness, and a fourth will be delighted by a Nobel Prize nomination. At the level of an individual life, these events appear to be extraordinary turns of fate, but viewed from a distance, they occur regularly, in vast numbers, and are spread like a thin layer across the population: if not this, then that; if not there, then here.

There is a time bomb inside each of us. We do not know what it is or when it will go off. The body itself is a promise of future decay. We did not construct it, nor do we control the countless processes that keep us alive. The heart beats, cells divide, neurons change, hormones influence our moods, and the immune system makes decisions without the permission of the one we call “I.” Consciousness inhabits this process like a passenger who has gradually forgotten that they built neither the vehicle nor the road.

Has the chooser chosen whatever makes them choose as they do? If not, then determinism may be very different from fatalism as a theory of causation, but from the standpoint of ultimate authorship, the result is similar: there is will, there is choice, and there is action, but there is no independent standpoint from which a person can interrupt the causal chain and, under the same conditions, produce a different future.

Under fatalism, therefore, compatibilist free will is meaningless as a way of rescuing human authorship. It may distinguish voluntary action from coercion, or a reasoned decision from an uncontrolled impulse, but it gives us no power over a predetermined end. It frees us neither from fate nor from the causes that produce our will. It leaves us only with the freedom to want whatever unchosen forces have made us capable of wanting, and to do whatever will bring about the inevitable anyway. A person may prefer, plan, and resist, but their preferences, plans, and resistance cannot overturn what has been predetermined. They can only become the means through which fate is fulfilled. In such a world, “free will” means only that the inevitable occurs through a person’s own desires.

The compatibilist formula “you are free when you do what you want” then reveals its inadequacy. It does not ask why a person wants precisely what they want, nor whether their desire can actually alter the decisive outcome. Fate could produce the necessary desire at the necessary moment while still leaving the person with the impression that they are acting independently. They would not be dragged forcibly toward their end. They would move toward it voluntarily, after their motives, fears, and hopes had led them down the only path they would choose. The more fully the action expresses their will, the more perfectly that will may serve as an instrument of the inevitable.

The absence of external coercion does not change this situation. A marionette does not cease to be a marionette merely because its strings have been moved beneath its skin. There is no essential difference between being driven by a visible hand and being driven by desires one did not choose and that will inevitably lead one toward a predetermined outcome. The distinction matters for how a person experiences the action, but not for their ultimate authorship. In one case, they experience coercion; in the other, they experience the desire as their own.

Under fatalism, even practical freedom loses some of its substance with respect to the predetermined outcome. We ordinarily say that a person controls something if their decisions can lead to different outcomes. But there is only one outcome, and it is inevitable because it follows from inevitable causes. In a fatalistic world, where a particular end will occur regardless of a person’s conduct, compatibilist freedom becomes empty precisely in relation to what has been predetermined. What remains is the subjective experience of deliberating and acting according to one’s own motives, while the possibility of escaping fate through those actions disappears.

This is no longer free will, but freedom of action within the limits of an unfreely formed will. The distinction is real, but it should not be concealed by words. A person may act voluntarily, reason, and change many things without being their own ultimate author. And where even the outcome is fated in advance, compatibilist freedom shrinks to the marionette’s right to call the movement of its strings its own decision.

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u/impersonal_process — 1 month ago

In what sense is the will free if it is compelled to comply with the moral responsibility imposed by another will?

When we say that human beings have free will, we usually imagine an ability to choose between different possibilities and to determine for themselves how to act. But this conception of freedom begins to appear less obvious when we add moral responsibility and the law to the equation. A person does not merely choose. They are expected to choose “correctly.” They are required to conform to moral rules created by others, as well as to judgments, sanctions, condemnation, and consequences. This gives rise to a paradox: if the will is free, why should it have to conform to something it did not choose? And if failing to follow these rules leads to punishment, guilt, or condemnation, in what sense does the choice remain free?

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u/impersonal_process — 1 month ago

Do you think free will should be something more than a real relation between a system and certain constraints?

Free will is not a substance or an intrinsic property, but a relational property that exists only in relation to specific constraints.

A relational property is a property that does not belong to something in itself, but depends on its relation to something else.

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u/impersonal_process — 1 month ago

Is any form of free will compatible with marionetness?

Marionetness means being an active and self-regulating system without being the ultimate author of the forces that determine what you will want, think, and do.

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u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago

The question of whether or not free will exists does not define our humanity

When we sit beside the bed of a dying person, we do not ask whether the hand we are holding was extended of their own free will. When we comfort a child, we do not investigate whether our compassion is metaphysically independent of the past. In such moments, philosophical debate gives way to the immediate truth of presence: one being is suffering, and another is there beside them.

When we realize that no one has chosen their nervous system, their fears, their traumas, or the limits of their endurance, judgment can give way to compassion. This does not mean abolishing responsibility, but freeing it from the thirst for retribution. Responsibility can remain a concern for the future - a way to prevent suffering, change behavior, and protect the vulnerable.

The question of whether or not free will exists does not define our humanity. What defines it is what happens when two transient beings meet and each recognizes its own doom in the other. Amid the impersonal processes of nature, something fragile briefly emerges: one mortal being protects another mortal being from pain, as best it can. It is not omnipotence, independence, or absolute authorship that makes us human. What is most human in us is the tenderness of one mortal being toward another.

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u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago

Compatibilist “free will” is unnecessary nonsense

Compatibilist free will is nonsense not because the phenomena it describes are meaningless. Choice, deliberation, and self-control are entirely real. The nonsense lies in insisting that all of them be called “free will” after freedom from causal determination has already been abandoned. The theory explains control and then rechristens it as freedom.

Yes, the will can be free from violence, hypnosis, a brain tumor, severe addiction, or some other influence that diminishes moral responsibility, but this makes it relationally free from something, not free as such. Someone is free from something in order to do something. The prisoner is free from the cell, the citizen from censorship, the hand from the rope, and the decision from an immediate threat. To say merely “he is free,” without specifying what he is free from, is just as incomplete as saying that an object is “to the left” without specifying what it is to the left of.

We can imagine two completely identical worlds. In World A, people deliberate over their decisions, restrain their impulses, and act according to their convictions. In World B, exactly the same things happen, the same brain processes, thoughts, actions, and consequences, but philosophers add that people possess “compatibilist free will.” If there is no physical, psychological, or behavioral difference between the two worlds, then the concept does not designate any additional property of reality. It is unnecessary, a second name for capacities that have already been described.

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u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago

Can we refuse to submit to an idea if it has found in us a nervous system suitable for its implantation?

We can resist an idea only if there is a sufficiently powerful reason for resistance within us or around us. If the idea has found a nervous system whose structure fully supports it, and there is no opposing force, the question “Why didn’t the person simply reject it?” loses its meaning. It presupposes a capacity for rejection that may not exist at that moment. This is like asking why water did not flow uphill. For it to change direction, another force is required.

That other force may be an opposing belief, critical thinking, a new fact, love for someone close to us, fear of the consequences, an intellectual habit, or a painful experience. It may come from a book, a conversation, treatment or a change in the environment. A person may indeed begin to doubt, reconsider their behavior, and eventually reject the idea. But the emergence of resistance does not prove free will. It shows that a new force has arisen within the causal field.

The paradox is that belief in free will may itself be an idea that has found a nervous system suitable for its implantation. It promises authorship, dignity, and control. It allows us to say, “I chose for myself who I would become,” instead of, “What I am produced this choice.” It finds fertile ground in a creature that does not want to see itself as the meeting place of heredity, environment, and history, but as their independent origin.

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u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago

Possibility is what you need, and you create it in order to satisfy that need. The same is true of free will.

Possibility often appears to be something that exists independently of us, like an open door waiting to be noticed. We say that we “have a possibility,” as though it were an object the world had given us. But possibility is not an object. It arises from the relationship between a particular need and the conditions that would allow that need to be satisfied.

If you do not want to go anywhere, an open door is not a possibility. It is simply an open door. If you are hungry, a piece of bread becomes a possibility for satisfying your hunger. If you are full, it loses that meaning. The same object can be a possibility for one person, an obstacle for another, and something entirely irrelevant to a third. Possibility, therefore, is located entirely neither in the world nor in the person. It arises from the encounter between a need and the environment.

First the need arises, and then consciousness begins to notice those features of the world through which it can be satisfied. The thirsty person notices the fountain. The poor person notices the job. The lonely person notices a gesture of affection. The frightened person notices the exit. The world remains the same, but its meaning changes according to the observer’s condition.

In this sense, we create possibility. We do not necessarily create the physical conditions themselves, but we organize them in our minds around our own needs. From the infinite number of facts, we select those that may be useful to us. We call them “possibilities” and begin to act upon them until one of them produces the desired result.

The same is true of free will.

Human beings need to feel that they are the authors of their own lives. They do not want to be merely the place where heredity, upbringing, environment, experiences, and neural processes converge. They want to be the beginning of the causal chain, the source that does not merely transmit the motion it has received but generates it by itself.

The idea of free will arises from this psychological need. We need it in order to preserve our sense of dignity, merit, and moral significance. Society needs it as well, because it uses free will to justify praise, blame, and punishment. Free will thus becomes a convenient possibility for satisfying a deep human need: the need not to see ourselves as entirely caused beings.

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u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago

Is there an observable difference between a world in which people act of their own will and a world in which they act of their own free will?

What property of reality does the word “free” add to the statement “I did it of my own will”?

“Of my own will” already means that the action arose from my motives, values, and deliberation rather than from immediate external coercion. If “free” means the same thing, then it is redundant. If it means something more, then what exactly that is must be explained.

If such a property cannot be named, distinguished, and explained, then the word does not expand the description. It merely surrounds a causally conditioned will with a metaphysical halo.

u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago

The Lagrange Point and the Illusion of Free Will

Between Earth and the Sun, there are five Lagrange points where the gravitational pull of the two bodies and the centrifugal force balance so precisely that an object placed there appears to hang motionless relative to both. Telescopes such as the James Webb Space Telescope are positioned there, seemingly free from the dominion of either body.

Seemingly. A Lagrange point is not a place without gravity; it is a place where two gravitational influences cancel each other with precision. The object is not free from force; it is a prisoner of two forces at once. The equilibrium is fragile: the slightest deviation dislodges it from the point, and it falls under the dominance of one situational force field or the other, never into nowhere.

Here is the model: a person who escapes the influence of one situational force field, the family, with its expectations and quiet pressure, rarely enters weightlessness. More often, they move into the orbit of another: a new environment, a new ideology, a new social circle. “At last I am free from my parents” is the statement of a satellite that has crossed the boundary beyond which Earth no longer dominates, only to find that beyond it the Sun already reigns. The change in the dominant field feels like freedom because the feeling is local: it registers the weakening of the old attraction, not the absence of attraction altogether.

More interesting is the case in which two fields within the person balance each other: family duty against personal desire, pulling with exactly equal force while the next step hangs as though in a vacuum. Here intuition insists: “Now I am truly free, because neither force pulls more strongly than the other.” But the balance of two forces is not the absence of force. It is proof that forces exist and measurable ones at that so closely matched that their effects cancel at this exact point. A satellite at a Lagrange point is no less subject to gravity than a satellite orbiting a single planet; it is subject to two gravitational influences simultaneously.

And as with real Lagrange points, the equilibrium of the will is unstable. A minor cause, fatigue, a chance remark, tips the balance, and the decision falls into one field. Afterwards, the person narrates the fall as a “free choice” made “at last,” but the fall is the physics of the system, not an intervention from outside it.

The answer is therefore negative in two respects. The freedom of one situational force field from another is not freedom of the will; it is merely a boundary on a map beyond which one master is replaced by another. And the point of balance between two fields is not an island of autonomy; it is the most fragile configuration of all, existing only while two foreign forces happen to cancel each other out. The will never leaves gravitational space. It merely changes which body keeps it in orbit and, on rare occasions, hangs for a moment between two before inevitably falling into one of them.

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u/impersonal_process — 2 months ago