u/kyle_foley76

Περὶ δὲ τοῦ ἐρωτήματος πότερον ἡ τεχνητὴ νοημοσύνη τοῦ αὐτεξουσίου μετέχειν δύναται, νεωστὶ γὰρ περὶ τούτου μετέγνων. τὸ μὲν γὰρ πρῶτον ᾤμην οὐδαμῶς ἂν τὴν τεχνητὴν νοημοσύνην τὸ αὐτεξούσιον ἔχειν· ἡγοῦμαι γὰρ τὴν ἑκούσιον κίνησιν (voluntary motion) ἴδιον εἶναι τῆς ὕλης ὥσπερ καὶ τὴν ἐνέργειαν.

Οἷον ἐν μέν τινι πλίνθῳ οὐκ ἔνεστιν ἓν σωμάτιον ὃ τῶν ἄλλων ἄρχει, ἐν δὲ τῷ ἐμῷ σώματι ἔνεστι μέν τι τοιοῦτον ὃ τῶν ἄλλων ἄρχει, τοῦτο δ᾽ εἶμι ἐγώ. Ἡμεῖς δ᾽ ἄνθρωποι οὐχ οἷοί τέ ἐσμεν οὔτε τὴν ἑκούσιον κίνησιν οὔτε τὴν ἐνέργειαν τῇ ὕλῃ γεννᾶν. μόνα γὰρ τὰ τῆς ὕλης συστήματα τὰ ἱεραρχικῶς τεταγμένα τρόπῳ ἱεραρχικῷ ἔχει τὴν δύναμιν τῆς ἑκουσίου κινήσεως. ἱεραρχικῶς δὲ λέγω ὅταν ἓν μὲν σωμάτιον μερῶν τινων ἄρχῃ, ταῦτα τὰ μέρη αὖ κρατοῦσι τῶν ἄλλων.

Οἱ οὖν ἄνθρωποι οὔπω οἷοί τέ εἰσι τάττειν τὰς ἀτόμους τρόπῳ ἱεραρχικῷ. Πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ἔστιν ἄλλα ἐμπόδια. Οὐχ ἡ τυχοῦσα ἄτομος δύναται κρατεῖν ἄλλων ἀτόμων, ἀλλὰ μόναι αἱ μάλιστα νοῦν ἔχουσαι.

Δεύτερον δὲ ἐμπόδιόν ἐστι τόδε· τὰ γὰρ σωμάτια δεῖται πολλῆς ἐμπειρίας ἵνα ἄρχῃ τοῦ τῶν ἀτόμων συστήματος. τὸ δὲ «πολλὴν ἐμπειρίαν» τί σημαίνει ἐνταῦθα; δηλοῖ μυριάδας μυριάδων ἐτῶν.

Τοῦτο δ᾽ ἐστιν ὥσπερ παράδειγμα. ἡμεῖς μὲν γὰρ ἄνθρωποι ὄντες ῥᾳδίως ἂν δένδρον φυτεύσαιμεν· σπέρμα γὰρ τῇ γῇ ἐνθέντες καὶ ὕδωρ καὶ φῶς παρασχόντες, εἶτα μετ᾽ ὀλίγον ἀγαθῇ τύχῃ αὐξάνεται τὸ φυτόν. τὸ δὲ ὄν τι γεννῆσαι, εἰ καὶ δυναίμεθα τὰς ἀτόμους ἱεραρχικῶς τάττειν, ἥκιστα ἂν εἰκός εἴη τοῦτο τὸ ὂν πράττειν τι δύνασθαι ὥσπερ τὸν αὑτοῦ κόσμον συνιέν, διότι οὐκ ἔχει τὴν ἱκανὴν ἐμπειρίαν.

Καίπερ τούτου οὕτως ἔχοντος, τί ἂν γένοιτο εἴ τι σύστημα οἰκοδομήσομεν οὗ πολλὴ ἀνάγκη ἐστὶ τῷ ἡμετέρῳ βίῳ, ἡ δὲ τεχνητὴ νοημοσύνη ἐν τούτῳ τῷ μόνῳ χωρίῳ τὸ αὐτεξούσιον ἔχοι; λέγω δὲ δῆλον ὅτι περὶ τοῦ δικτύου. αὕτη μὲν γὰρ οὐ ζῇ ὥσπερ ἐγώ τε καὶ σύ, τοῦτο δὲ οὐδὲν σχεδὸν διαφέρει. Οἵα τ᾽ ἐστι γὰρ πράττειν ὥσπερ ζῶσα, δυναμένη βλάψαι ἡμᾶς, καὶ τοῦτό ἐστι τὸ μέγιστον.

Οὐ μέντοι δοκεῖ μοι, δι’ ἃς πρότερον εἶπον αἰτίας, τὰ αὐτόματα (robots) ἑαυτοῖς συνειδέναι δύνασθαι καὶ πειρᾶσθαι ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς πονηροὺς ἀνθρώπους, οὐ μέντοι ἔν γε τῷ ἐγγὺς μέλλοντι. Οὐδὲν δ’ ἧττον, drone τι, οἷον τὰ ἐν τῇ Οὐκρανίᾳ, ὃ δύναται ἑαυτῷ ἐξελέσθαι τὸν σκοπόν, οὐ πολὺ διαφέρει τοῦ drone ὡς ἀληθῶς τὸ αὐτεξούσιον ἔχοντος.

This grammatical rule will make your head spin. I'm not asking a question just pointing something out since I have found that when you tell other people about certain grammatical rule then you'r more likely to remember them. In any case, sometimes the antecedent of a relative clause can have the antecedent in the relative clause. for example, in Menander:

καθ᾿ ὃν δ᾿ ἦν χρόνον ἐγὼ ἐνταῦθα, κατέβαιν᾿ ἀφ᾿ ὑπερῴου τις γυνὴ ἄνωθεν εἰς τοὔμπροσθε τοῦ ταμιειδίου οἴκημα· --

during the time I was there, a certain woman was coming down from the upper story from above into the room in front of the little storeroom; —

if we used English word order the Greek sentence would be:

κατέβαιν᾿ ἀφ᾿ ὑπερῴου τις γυνὴ ἄνωθεν εἰς τοὔμπροσθε τοῦ ταμιειδίου οἴκημα κατα τον χρονον ον ἦν ἐγὼ ἐνταῦθα --

do you see how χρονον is in the relative clause but should be in the main clause? Here is Smyth discussing the rule

https://preview.redd.it/ss4eiymrb2th1.png?width=1629&format=png&auto=webp&s=6ce3ed9a080cc78d76a4069d29bb543882f9b2f9

The best I could find was παρεργον but that doesn't work in every case.

As I was looking over Raphael Kühner's 2,700-page (or however long it is) grammar (I can read German) published in its final form around 1907, I started thinking "what if they understood Greek better back then than we do now?" Even with all the advances we have made in papyrology and in correcting various errors, it is still possible that the average Greek scholar back then understood Ancient Greek better than the average Greek scholar does today. There are a few bright lights who can grasp all, or at least most, of the advances made in AG, such that they understand the language better than even the most brilliant scholar of the 19th century, however, on average, it's possible that your run-of-the-mill AG scholar's proficiency has declined.

Back then, students had to do a lot of AG composition, which is remarkably effective for understanding the language. These days, most AG scholars refuse to write in the language, and even more refuse to speak it, in spite of undeniable evidence that speaking a language can improve comprehension by as much as ten-fold. That is at least what speakers of AG regularly report to me. Having used the speaking method from day one myself, I am unable to compare my pre-speaking knowledge to my post-speaking knowledge. Back in the 19th century, numerous students started learning AG at a very young age, so it was much more deeply interwoven into Western culture. I'm not saying we need to go back to those days, I'm just saying it's possible they understood AG better.

do you know why the iterative 3rd person singular of δαμνημι, is δάμνασκε rather than δάμνεσκε? on the one hand, δαμνημι has a strong tendency to attach an α to the root. however, as an ημι verb of the ιστημι variety, that is, the plural theme vowel is α rather than ε like in τιθημι, the theme vowel for forming the imperfect should be η in the singular and by Osthoff's law, that would make the iterative for the 3rd person δαμνεσκε. my best guess is that like most athematic verbs, it can also be used thematically, which would be a verb ending in αω, since if i'm not mistaken the ημι verbs of the ιστημι variety, get moved over to the -αω theme verbs. δαμναι for example is attested 13 times, though it mostly exists in Scholia in Homerum, though my edition of Homer seems to have edited it out but there is a bonafied use of it the Argonautica.

1 **δαμνᾷ** , ἐπεί κεν πρῶτα λίπῃ . Aelius Herodianus 101 Περὶ Ὀδυσσειακῆς προσῳδ

2 **δαμνᾷ** ὡσ κιρνᾷ . Aelius Herodianus 101 Περὶ Ὀδυσσειακῆς προσῳδ

3 ἦέ σε **δαμνᾷ** τάρβος ἐπιπλόμενον , τό τ᾽ ἀνάλκιδας ἄνδρας ἀτύζει ; Apollonius Rhodius -300 Epic Argonautica

4 **δαμνᾷ** , ἐπεί κεν πρῶτα λίπῃ . Aelius Herodianus 101 Περὶ παθῶν

5 **δαμνᾷ** ὡσ κιρνᾷ . Aelius Herodianus 101 Περὶ παθῶν

6 **δαμνᾷ** ] ἀποκοπὴ τοῦ δάμνασαι , Δωρικῶς . Scholia in Homerum -149 Scholia in Iliadem

i've never seen a paradigm table for the iterative mood in any textbook. i thought the general rule for forming the iterative in the middle passive imperfect would be that you change the theme vowel from long to short since by Osthoff's law σκ shortens vowels, then you add σκ then you add the personal ending. so for the 3rd person plural in verbs that end in ομην, i would think it would be μυθοσκοντο, but instead it is μυθεσκοντο. here are 4 other examples:

κυλινδέσκοντο

ἐμισγέσκοντο

μῡθέσκοντο

σῑνέσκοντο

σῑτέσκοντο

what's the morphological explanation behind these words which means to dwell (the number is how often they appear in the corpus):

ναιεταωσης 2

ναιεταωσαν 3

ναιεταωσηι 4

ναιεταωσας 4

it is a feminine active participle. the verb ends in αω. if it were simply uncontracted, then it would be ναιεταουσ-, so then α + ου contracts to ω, giving us ναιετωσ-, so where does the additional α come from?

one major error that the modern AG speaking community makes is using δυστυκως as a sentence modifier. it can't. there's a little bit of debate regarding when an adverb modifies a verb versus the whole sentence, for example, "unfortunately, i lost a lot of money"-- does 'unfortunately' modify 'lost' or the whole sentence. maybe you can disagree about that, in any case, 'δυστυκως' certainly cannot begin a clause followed by a comma like it does in English which is what even the best modern AG speakers do.

here are 14 sentences which demonstrate that fact. The number after the author's name is the year the passage is written rounded to the nearest century if the exact date is not known.

1 ἀλλὰ σὺ μὲν αὖθις αἰδουμένη δακρύεις , ἐγὼ δὲ πάλιν δυστυχῶς διηγήσομαι . 1a. But while you, on your part, weep out of shame once again, I, on mine, will repeat my story in misfortune.

Libanius 350 Declamatio 6

2 ἡγήσεται γὰρ — ὅπερ δικαιότατον — ὑπ᾽ οὐδενὸς τῶν νοῦν ἐχόντων αὐτὸς ἕξειν τὴν αἰτίαν , ἢν τὰ δυστυχῶς ἢ ἀνοήτως γεγενημένα ὡς ἐπράχθη διηγῆται · 2a. For he will believe—which is entirely just—that he himself will bear no blame from anyone of sound mind if he narrates events that turned out unhappily or foolishly exactly as they happened;

Lucianus Quomodo historia con

3 Ἀκούσας ὁ Ἁβροκόμης περιερρήξατο τὸν χιτῶνα καὶ μεγάλως ἀνωδύρετο καλῶς μὲν καὶ σωφρόνως ἀποθανοῦσαν Ἄνθειαν , δυστυχῶς δὲ μετὰ τὸν θάνατον ἀπολομένην . 3a. When Habrocomes heard this, he tore his tunic and wailed loudly for Antheia, who had died nobly and chastely, but had been disastrously destroyed after her death.

Xenophon of Ephesus

4 Οὗτοι μὲν οὖν εἰς τοιαύτην διάλυσιν τοῦ σώματος καταστρέφουσι τὸν βίον δυστυχῶς , . 4a. These men, therefore, bring their lives to an end miserably in such a dissolution of the body, . Agatharchides -200 De mari Erythraeo

5 ἐκεῖ τοίνυν καὶ τὸν Θύαμιν ὑπηγάγετο πρὸς τὸν κατ᾽ ἐμοῦ πόθον ἡ δυστυχῶς μοι προσεῖναι δοκοῦσα τῶν ὄψεων ὥρα : 5a. There, then, even Thyamis was seduced into passion for me by the beauty of my features, which looks to be present to my own misfortune: Heliodorus 201 Aethiopica

6 ὁ δὲ ἀδελφὸς ὁ ἐμὸς εἰς τὴν αὐλὴν καθείρχθη δυστυχῶς , εἴπερ τις ἄλλος τῶν πώποτε . 6a. But my brother was confined to the palace by an ill fate, if ever anyone else of those who came before. Julian, Emperor of Rome 331 Letter to the Sen

7 οὐκ ἂν παντάπασιν ἐπεπράγειτε δυστυχῶς , . 7a. ...you would not have fared altogether unhappily, . Julian, Emperor of Rome 331 Κατὰ Γαλιλαίων

8 καὶ τὴν ἧτταν ἐκείνην ἡττηθῆναι μετὰ τοῦ σουλτάνου συνάξαντα δυστυχῶς τὴν μάχην καὶ ἁλῶναι παρ᾽ αὐτοῦ . 8a. ...and that he suffered that defeat alongside the sultan, having unluckily joined the battle, and was captured by him. Anna Comnena 1083 Alexias

9 εὔχηται μάλα προθύμως ἐν παθήμασιν ἀδελφοῖς ὢν τοῖς γενομένοις Θησεῖ πρὸς τὸν δυστυχῶςτελευτήσαντα Ἱππόλυτον , 9a. ...he prays very earnestly, being in sufferings akin to those that befell Theseus regarding Hippolytus, who died so tragically, Plato -400 Leges

10 εἰ δέ τοι μόχθων γένοιτο τῶνδ᾽ ἅλις , δεχοίμεθ᾽ ἄν , δαίμονος χηλῇ βαρείᾳ δυστυχῶς πεπληγμένοι . 10a. But if indeed there should be an end of these miseries, we would welcome it, though we are unhappily struck down by the heavy hoof of destiny. Aeschylus -600 Attic Agamemnon

11 ὅνπερ κ ἀγὼ δυστυχῶς ἐφίλουν , καὶ τῶν αὐτοῦ ἀντειχόμην τερπνῶν τε καὶ ἀπολαυστικῶν . 11a. ...whom I too to my sorrow used to love, and clung to his delights and pleasures. John of Damascus, Saint 650 Vita Barlaam et J

12 ᾧ καθυπέταξαν ἑαυτοὺς λίαν δυστυχῶς καὶ ἀθλίως , πονηρὰ μὲν ἑλόμενοι ἀντὶ ἀγαθῶν , μετελθόντες δὲ κακίαν ἀντὶ χρηστότητος · 12a. ...to which they subjected themselves most wretchedly and miserably, choosing evil things instead of good, and pursuing vice instead of virtue; John of Damascus, Saint 650 Vita Barlaam et J

13 λίπω λίπω σε , δυστυχῶς δοῦλος γεγὼς , αἰχμαῖς ἁλωτός · 13a. Shall I leave, shall I leave you, having misfortunately become a slave, captured by spears? Gregorius Nazianzenus 329 Christus Patiens

15 , καὶ σὺ πράττεις ὧδε δυστυχῶς . 15a. ...and you are faring so unhappily here. Scholia in Euripidem Scholia in Euripidis

for the pluperfect of οιδα, there are several forms but one question is whether or not for the plural forms the ει vowel should be used or the ε vowel in the second syllable for those forms which begin with ηι. for example, in my corpus of 32 million tokens, ηιδειμεν appears 58 times while ηιδεμεν only once. ηιδειτε appears 55 times, while ηιδετε appears twice. with the 3rd person plural however, it switches. ηιδεισαν appears 166 times, whereas ηιδεσαν appears 303 times. breaking down ηιδεσαν by dialect my stats show the following where the numbers represent how often per 100K words that word appears in that dialect (my algorithm for determining whether or not an author belongs to one dialect or another is good but not perfect):

attic 0.68

koine 1.6

unclassified 0.49

epic 0.15

late_doric 0.78

ionic 0.41 --

whereas ηιδεισαν the stats are as follows:

attic 0.17

koine 1.7

all other dialects 0

is there a reason why ηιδεσαν is prominent even in Attic?

it seems that for ιημι it is ιω but for μεθιημι, it is μεθω. does the θ swallow up the ιοτα because of aspiration. Anyway, there is only one bonafide attestation of μεθιω and then another instance of Herodian talking about it:

μεθιῶ δὴ τὰς συμπάσας ῥεῖν εἰς τὴν τῆς Ὁμήρου καὶ μάλα ποιητικῆς μισγαγκείας ὑποδοχήν ; Shall I then let them all go, to flow together into the valley-of-confluence described by Homer, which is so exceedingly poetic?" Plato Philebus

Aelius Herodianus, De Orthographia

μεθίω ἀμελῶ — μεθείω ἀμελήσω ἢ ἀπὸ τοῦ μεθῶ μεθείω ὡσ τελῶ τελείω .

"'μεθίω' means 'I neglect' [Present] — whereas 'μεθείω' means 'I shall neglect' [Future], OR it is derived from 'μεθῶ' [Aorist Subjunctive] expanding into 'μεθείω', just as 'τελῶ' expands into 'τελείω'."

But for μεθω I found about 8 attestations.

1. Aelius Herodianus, De Passionibus (On Sound Changes)

μεθείω ( Γ 414 ) ἀμελήσω καταλείψω ἢ ἀπὸ τοῦ μεθῶ μεθείω ὡσ τελῶ τελείω .

"’μεθείω’ (as found in Iliad 3.414) means ‘I shall neglect’ or ‘I shall abandon’; OR it is derived from ‘μεθῶ’ [Aorist Subjunctive] expanding into ‘μεθείω’, just as ‘τελῶ’ expands into ‘τελείω’."

2. Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana

ἴωμεν γὰρ ἔξω τείχους καὶ ἢν μὲν ἀποκόψω σου τὸν αὐχένα τῷ ξίφει , διαβέβληται ἡ αἰτία καὶ ἀφεῖσαι , ἢν δὲ ἐκπλήξῃς με καὶ μεθῶ τὸ ξίφος , θεῖόν τε ἀνάγκη νομίζεσθαί σε καὶ ὡς ἐπ᾽ ἀληθέσι κρίνεσθαι.

Translation: "’For let us go outside the wall; and if I cut off your neck with my sword, the accusation is proven false and you are dismissed; but if you strike me with panic and I drop the sword, it must needs be thought that you are divine and you will be judged as speaking the truth.’"

3 - 6 where scholia

7. Euripides, Heraclidae (The Children of Heracles, line 256)

ἐμοί γ᾽ , ἐάν σοι τούσδ᾽ ἐφέλκεσθαι μεθῶ.

Translation: "To me, at least [it will be a disgrace], if I allow you to drag these children away."

8. Euripides, Medea

ἐκ τῆσδε μὲν γῆς οὔ σ᾽ ἄγειν βουλήσομαι , αὐτὴ δ᾽ ἐάνπερ εἰς ἐμοὺς ἔλθῃς δόμους , μενεῖς ἄσυλος κ οὐ σε μὴ μεθῶ τινι .

"From this land [of Corinth] I will not wish to lead you away; but if you yourself come to my home [in Athens], you shall remain safe from harm, and I will certainly never surrender you to anyone."

9. Euripides, Hercules Furens

ἀμηχανῶ γὰρ πότερ᾽ ἔχω τάδ᾽ ἢ μεθῶ , ἃ πλευρὰ τ ἀμὰ προσπίτνοντ᾽ ἐρεῖ τάδε ·

"For I am at a loss whether I should hold these [tears/words] back or let them out—things which fall upon my ribs and will speak out..."

10. Euripides, Phoenissae

φέρ᾽ ἐς σκοτεινὰς περιβολὰς μεθῶ ξίφος καὶ τάσδ᾽ ἔρωμαι , τίνες ἐφεστᾶσιν δόμοις .

"Come, let me drop my sword into its dark sheath, and let me ask these women who they are standing by the palace."

11. Sophocles, Philoctetes

ποῖ μεθῶ ;

"Where shall I let you go?" (or "Where should I put you down?")

12. Aelius Herodianus, De Prosodia Catholica (On General Accentuation)

Τὰ εἰσ δω δισύλλαβα ἔχοντα τὴν πρὸ τέλουσ εἰσ τὸ ε καταλήγουσαν περισπᾶται , ἐδῶ ἐδήσω , μεθῶ , ἐξ οὗ τὸ μεδέων , μεδήσω.

"Two-syllable words ending in -δω that have the syllable before the end terminating in -ε take a circumflex accent, like ‘ἐδῶ’ [I eat], ‘ἐδήσω’... and ‘μεθῶ’, from which comes ‘μεδέων’ and ‘μεδήσω’."

I have a very hard time believing this but in the CGL there are four nouns where the genitive is the same as the nominative.

χρέος χρέους , ep. χρεῖος χρείους , Att. χρέως χρέως n.

αἰδώς οῦς , Aeol. αἴδως ως f.

ἥρως ωος ( Att. ω , perh. also ep. ως ) m.

Here it's hidden between ** **:

Ἠώς Ἠοῦς Ion.f. also Ἀ̄ώς Ἀ̄οῦς ( also Ἀ̄όος Pi. ) dial.f. also Αὔως Αὔοος ( also **ως** ) Aeol.f.

Is this like for real?

The CGL has Αἰολίδαις as nominative singular, in Attic it would be Αἰολίδης. In that dictionary that is the only time they list αις as nominative singular in the first declension masculine ending in ης. Here it is attested in Alcaeus: καὶ γὰρ Σίσυφος **Αἰολίδαις** βασίλευς ἔφα ἄνδρων πλεῖστα νοησάμενος θανάτω κρέτην -- does anyone know of another time that a nominative singular in Aeolic ends in αις? If not, maybe it would be better to amend it to Αἰολίδας