u/lordstarkll1

Why Admin Gov Fails the Caliphate
▲ 589 r/crusaderkings3+1 crossposts

Why Admin Gov Fails the Caliphate

I’ve previously argued that Islamic Caliphates need a distinct Caliphate Government, and one common response is that Administrative Government already represents it.

I agree that Administrative Government is much closer to classical Islamic Caliphates (like the Abbasids) than Clan Government, especially with mechanics like centralized authority, appointing and dismissing governors, bureaucracy, and political struggles over influence.

However, I don’t think it fully represents Islamic Caliphates. Administrative Government captures the bureaucratic side of the state, but not its religious legitimacy, dynastic politics, and the unique relationship between the Caliph, independent rulers, military elites, and religious institutions.

In other words, it captures how the state was administered, but not enough of what made a Caliphate politically and religiously unique.

Some important differences include:

Dynastic succession: Caliphates were generally hereditary within specific ruling families (such as the Abbasids or Umayyads), with the bay’ah often given to the designated heir during the ruler’s lifetime.

The Vizier: A powerful political figure who could effectively run the government and oversee the diwans. There is no real equivalent in the current system.

Religious legitimacy: While religious/sectarian purity or divine right is a major factor, the other political, institutional, and military aspects mentioned below are equally vital to how the state actually functioned.

Recognition of rulers: Even when the Caliph had little actual political power, regional rulers and sultans (such as the Seljuks) still sought his formal recognition and legitimacy.

Religious institutions: Scholars and judges could play an important role in the political and legal legitimacy of rulers, something that isn’t really represented.

Historical Dynastic and Ideological Rivalries for the Caliphate: This could feature deep claims and struggles for the Caliphate between different lineages claiming religious legitimacy—such as the Alids and the Umayyads—or competing caliphates entirely, mirroring historical realities like the Abbasids and the Umayyads of Cordoba.

Military Dominance and Praetorian Guard: In many Islamic eras, rulers and caliphs often became figureheads dominated by military elites soldiers (Mamluks/Turks), or warlords who could depose or enthrone leaders at will—a dynamic distinct from standard bureaucratic reshuffling.

The Ulema and Moral Authority: Religious scholars and judges held immense moral and legal influence over the populace. Their recognition (or denial) of a ruler’s legitimacy could spark rebellions or legitimize regime changes, adding a crucial checks-and-balances layer missing in current mechanics.

The DIWAN GOVERNMENT mod already implements some of these ideas, and I think it’s a great step in the right direction. However, I still feel that there is a lot missing before it can fully represent the political structure of historical Islamic Caliphates.

So I’m curious what you think:

Do we really need a separate Caliphate Government, or could Administrative Government be expanded enough to represent it properly?

And if you could add new mechanics to a Caliphate system, what would you add?

u/lordstarkll1 — 2 days ago

What If Governors in CK3 Weren’t Hereditary Lords?

I absolutely love Crusader Kings III, and I’ve poured hundreds of hours into it. But when playing in the Islamic world, one thing often feels immersion-breaking: governors are essentially treated like European feudal lords.

In many periods of Islamic history, governors (Walis) were appointed and removable officials rather than hereditary rulers. A Caliph could appoint a governor, dismiss him, replace him, or transfer him to another province.

This doesn’t mean governors were necessarily weak or easy to control. Some could become extremely powerful, especially when the central government was weak. The important difference is that their authority did not automatically come from hereditary ownership of the province.

In CK3, however, giving someone a landed title essentially creates a hereditary dynasty.

Your brother can be the governor of Egypt without becoming the hereditary ruler of Egypt.

That’s the kind of system I’d love to see.

How a Wali system could work

A governor wouldn’t need to own the province to become powerful.

Imagine appointing a talented governor to Egypt. At first, he’s loyal and sends the expected tax revenue. Over time, however, he builds relationships with local elites, gains the loyalty of provincial troops, becomes popular, accumulates wealth, and develops his own political network.

He can become extremely powerful without ever holding Egypt as a hereditary feudal title.

A disloyal governor could also gradually withhold or delay kharaj, manipulate provincial finances, or divert state revenues toward troops loyal to himself.

This could create a progression like:

Loyal Wali → Influential Wali → Entrenched Wali → Resistant Wali → Potentially autonomous ruler

Appointment, transfer, and dismissal

Under a strong Caliph, appointing and dismissing governors should be routine.

A governor could be removed from Egypt and appointed to Syria. A capable but politically inconvenient governor could simply be transferred elsewhere.

This would give the Caliph a powerful tool for preventing governors from becoming too entrenched.

The interesting part is when the balance of power changes.

A governor who has become extremely popular, controls loyal troops, has powerful local allies, or serves under a weak Caliph might become difficult to remove.

The Caliph could then:

Dismiss him

Transfer him

Offer concessions

Replace him with a rival

Negotiate

Or, in extreme cases, enforce the order militarily.

The outcome could depend on the strength of the Caliph and central government, the governor’s loyalty and influence, his military power, and the stability of the province.

So dismissal itself shouldn’t be the exceptional event.

The exception should be the governor who has become powerful enough to make dismissal dangerous.

And sometimes the governor wins

If the central government weakens enough, an entrenched governor could negotiate semi-autonomous or hereditary rights in exchange for tribute, military support, and recognition of the Caliph.

This could naturally produce situations resembling the Aghlabids or Tulunids.

In other words:

Appointed Wali → Entrenched Wali → Semi-autonomous ruler → Hereditary dynasty

Hereditary rule would become the result of political circumstances, rather than the default result of granting a title.

That’s what I’d love to see in CK3.

Instead of asking:

“Which duke should I give this land to?”

I’d rather ask:

“Who should govern this province, how much power have they accumulated, and can I afford to remove them?”

Managing an empire should feel less like handing out permanent land deeds and more like managing a network of powerful but temporary governors.

The goal isn’t to make Islamic realms easier or harder than feudal realms. The goal is to make them play differently.

Are there any mods that already attempt something like this?

And does anyone else think CK3 would benefit from a genuine appointment-based Wali system for the Islamic world?

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u/lordstarkll1 — 3 days ago

Ultimate CK3 Immersion Mod List – Am I Missing Anything?

Hey everyone,

If you want a completely fresh, refined, and deeply immersive CK3 experience, this is the definitive mod list. It completely transforms the game's depth regional flavor and overall atmosphere.

Here is my mod list in load order:

  1. Unofficial Patch
  2. Decorous Loading Screen Pack
  3. Kingdom of Heaven Soundtrack
  4. Brighter Text Colors
  5. Clear Notifications
  6. Faster Transitions
  7. UnderstatedEleganceInGraphics
  8. VIET Events - A Flavor and Immersion…
  9. New Personality Events for Children
  10. Grand Remembrance
  11. Love Marriage Family
  12. Muslim Enhancements
  13. ME - EPE Compatch
  14. Regional Immersion and Cultural Enrichment (RICE)
  15. Community Flavor Pack (CFP)
  16. Ethnicities & Portraits Expanded (EPE)
  17. CFP + EPE Compatibility Patch
  18. Succession Expanded
  19. Culture Expanded
  20. RICE + EPE Compatibility Patch
  21. Cultural Armies II
  22. Cultural Armies II & Culture Expanded Compatibility Patch
  23. Unit Packs Expanded (UPE)
  24. Fair Ladies
  25. Fair Ladies Expanded
  26. Medieval Arts
  27. Counterfactuals
  28. Better Executions Updated
  29. Population Control (Reduce Late-Game Lag)
  30. Multilingual Education
  31. Pervasive Crown Authority
  32. Battleground Commanders
  33. Interactive Commanders
  34. More Family Relations
  35. More Family Relations Chinese Translation
  36. More Interactive Vassals

Am I missing any essential mods or hidden gems that would make this setup even better? Let me know!

reddit.com
u/lordstarkll1 — 3 months ago

My "Essential Mods" list for a better experience. What are yours?

https://preview.redd.it/4sm46nttzl0h1.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=313734ce9c6ab1a1662996b054632d915ada2ed0

These are the mods I consider non-negotiable for my playthroughs:

  1. Community Flavor Pack (CFP)
  2. Grand Remembrance
  3. VIET
  4. Ethnicities & Portraits Expanded (EPE)
  5. RICE
  6. Clear Notifications
  7. More Interactive Vassals (A new favorite!)
  8. Medieval Arts
  9. Multilingual Education
  10. Love Marriage Family
  11. Muslim Enhancements (This is a fantastic addition overall, the Islamic world in CK3 truly needs far more flavor, immersion, and historical detail.)

What are yours?

reddit.com
u/lordstarkll1 — 3 months ago
▲ 43 r/crusaderkings3+1 crossposts

Is More Interactive Vassals worth it? (Best settings for AI stability)

Hi everyone, I'm really torn about using the More Interactive Vassals mod. I love how it makes the realm feel alive and forces vassals to actually take a side in civil wars, but I keep reading that the AI can't handle it. People say it leads to endless internal wars because the AI isn't smart enough to finish them, which eventually ruins the balance of the whole save.

For those who use it, is it actually that bad in long campaigns? And more importantly, if it's worth it, should I stick with the default game rules or are there specific settings you recommend to keep the AI functioning properly? And What about the "Bannermen" option? Do you keep it enabled?

I'd love to hear your experiences before I commit to a 300-year run with it. Thanks!

reddit.com
u/lordstarkll1 — 3 months ago