u/mrbulldops88

Please understand first that I am not trying to advocate for the TotK True Founding or Refounding theories. This is more an analysis of a valid point regarding either.

One problem that some have with Refounding theory is that it would require the events of OoT to be remembered, which would happen before Hyrule is destroyed, but require events in between to be forgotten like the TotK IW. I can understand that. How can events that happened earlier, before the country fell, be recalled if the refounding of the kingdom was not? I can't say that I personally have a theory off the top of my head for how this is possible. I just want to look at how similar it is to OoT ~> BotW.

So pretend we are in pre-TotK release times. Nothing from that game (or EoW) is in the canon yet. We do know that Aonuma said that BotW is just sometime after OoT. What timeline? Never answered. Does it matter? In my opinion, it does not. Since the cycle of Ganon is endless, the events could theoretically happen in any of them. I get people disagree with this, and by all means I am not John Nintendo, but regardless of WHERE you place BotW, it would require events betwee OoT and 10,000 years ago to be forgotten by the general Hyrulean public. This would be something required with True and Refounding.

So bringing this all home, if one has to accept that the events between OoT and 10,000 years ago have been forgotten, then one must accept that the events, including a refounding, between OoT and 10,000 years ago, could also be forgotten to time.

Here is some interesting lore I noticed during my recent playthrough of Age of Imprisonment. I have finished the game, and there are some late game spoilers. Most of it poses more questions:

1. Rauru was not familiar with the Master Sword until Zelda told him future Link will wield it. Sonia's knowledge of the sword is unknown, though it would be odd if she knew and didn't tell Rauru. That part is speculation, though.
2. The two Gerudo women most people refer to as Kotake and Koume are only referred to as Gerudo Generals. Not that they still couldn't be Twinrova. I believe they are intended to be the two sisters. Just possible wiggle room for the future if they go a different direction with them.
3. Several areas like Seres Scablands and Tabantha region were already named before the Imprisoning War. Interesting to consider in the True Founding Vs. Refounding debate. Would the Sage Seres from ABLW be named after the area, just happen to get the same name as the area, or the area named after her BEFORE the potential refounding?
4. Rauru put the spikes on the walls in the Imprisoning Chamber. I may be misremembering, but I believe the TotK MW2 English fan translation said that it was unknown when they were added. MW2 only says that Hyrule Castle was built by the next generation of Rauru's children.

I typed up a timeline with facts and my own theories if we were to place TotK backstory as the True Founding.

My priorities are trying to utilize Occam's Razor and accepting their can potentially be retcons. I try to theorize with the least amount of assumptions, but especially with retcons and perceived retcons, assumptions are necessary, whether one places TotK backstory as true founding or refounding. I'll be advocating for the former.

I prioritize info from the HH and some dev interviews, minus the retcon of Oracles now coming after LA. Zelda Encyclopedia is sketchy as has been pointed out to me on this sub, with a forward saying the author just made some things up.

I do not completely prioritize geography and the presence/absence of races from the game. Lon Lon Ranch is mentioned in ALBW as the source of the milk bar's milk, but it is never seen. Locations are only on the map if they are relevant. I understand buildings and locations may be rebuilt or renamed, but I don't prioritize it in theorizing. Same thing with different races, present only if they need to be. I look at EoW and see that the boundaries of Hyrule expanded to show that some of them may live off-map.

I am not looking to debate any of the priorities or non-priorities I have. You're welcome to try to discuss them, but I will ignore it. I will only discuss the theories I have.

Sources will be listed with [ ] around them. Some sources outside of the games or obscure info from the games will give more detail. Some events like Hyrule’s creation will have the first game it was mentioned as a source. Expansion of events later will be noted as well. For example, the first mention of goddesses creating Hyrule and leaving the Triforce was ALttP. OoT added the names of the goddesses and their specific roles in creation. EoW added that Hyrule was created by them to seal Null, leaving the Triforce/Prime Energy behind as a source of power for the Tris.

A lot of info comes from the TotK Masterworks which presents some information as theoretical.

IMPORTANT NOTE: UNLIKE THE ORIGINAL DOC I TYPED, I WAS UNABLE TO REFORMAT THIS POST THE SAME WAY WHERE I INDICATE WHICH IS THEORY AND WHICH IS FACT. PLEASE ASK ME FOR CLARIFICATION BEFORE YOU ASSUME I AM PRESENTING THEORY AS FACT. IF THIS IS NOT ACKNOWLEDGED IN ANY POST TRYING TO DICUSS AN IDEA PRESENTED, I WILL IGNORE IT. ALL CAPS BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW PEOPLE DON'T READ EVERYTHING.

Anyway, here we go.

 

Creation/Origin Era 

The primordial cosmic entity Null, embodiment of chaos, destroyed any order trying to manifest [EoW]. 

Hyrule was created by the three goddesses [ALttP] to seal Null [EoW]. 

Din created the land, Nayru created order, and Farore created the diverse inhabitants [OoT]. 

A Tree underneath the land with roots extended all over Hyrule in an area with sacred power. [MW, p. 211] 

The Tree nourished the life of Hyrule with its roots and is the lynchpin of the seal on Null [TotK, EoW]. 

After creation, the goddesses left behind the Triforce to give the Tri power to repair Null’s rifts [EoW], as well as the Secret Stones [MW  p.3]. 

After the three goddesses departed, the Triforce, Secret Stones, the world were entrusted to the goddess Hylia to protect [SS, MW p. 3]. 

It is possible there were more than 7 Secret Stones in the past, missing due to fights over them and Dragonification [MW p.314]. 

Lorule was created [ALBW]. 

 

Era of the Goddess Hylia/Godly Era 

Hylia gave the Secret Stones to the Zonai to protect [MW p.3]. 

It is possible the Zonia possibly originated from the ground [MW p.304]. 

Hylians were the descendants of Hylia [HH p. 77] 

Zonai were possibly the ancestors of Hylians [MW p.310]. 

Hylians descended from Zonai, who descended from Hylia [HH p. 77; MW p.310]. 

The Zonai worshipped the Sacred Beasts Lizard, Bird, Camel, Elephant, and Owl [AoI]. 

The Springs of Power/Skyview, Courage/Earth, and Wisdom were created [SS, TotK]. 

It is possible that the 3 BotW/TotK dragons, Naydra, Farosh, and Dinraal, were followers of Hylia with elemental powers who were given eternal life via dragonification to watch over the 3 Springs [MW p.83-84; 200-201]. 

Zonai ruins (Type 2 according to MW) were possibly constructed in the Faron Region sometime before the tribe ascended. [MW p.256] 

The Zonai started excavating the Depths before they would even ascend to the sky [MW p.3]. 

The discovery of Zonaite lead to the creation of technology like various Constructs in the Depths [TotK], including the Forbidden Constructs [AoI]. 

The Zonai discovered Time Shift stones and ancient flowers in the Laynaru region and used them to create the Ancient Robots to mine the region. 

The Temple of Time was constructed in the Lanaryu region [SS]. 

The Temple of Hylia/Sealed Temple was constructed in the Faron Region [SS]. 

The Zonai were massacred by Forbidden Constructs [AoI] (NOTE: I have not finished Aoi, so I am not sure if it is clarified when the massacre happened, pre- or post-1^(st) ascension. If this info is inaccurate, let me know so I can update. 

The Forbidden Constructs massacre started in the Depths, moved to the surface Zonai, the latter ascended, then eventually the Forbidden Constructs found a way to the sky islands, possibly the same way all other Constructs were moved from the Depths to the sky. 

Zonai Heavenly Period 

The Zonai ascended into the sky to escape danger [TotK]. 

The Depths Zonai and Constructs still used Tobio’s Hollow to transport Constructs to the surface, that were then transported to Thunderhead Isles, then to other Zonai sky islands [MW p239-240]. 

The Zonai ascended to the sky for their own safety [MW p.3], while some Zonai and Constructs stayed behind to continue excavating the Depths [MW p. 239]. 

It is possible that the Zonai who stayed on the surface eventually evolved into Hylians [MW p.310]. 

The Zonai left the Ancient Robots under the direction of the SS dragon Lanayru. 

Dragon Lanayru controlled the Ancient Robots by way of Time Stones to excavate the region for more stones [SS]. 

The mass excavation near the surface of the Lanayru region turned it into a desert. 

Hylia turned an unnamed god of Life and Power into the Bargainer Statue for trading life for money [BotW, TotK, MW p.126]. 

Hylia created the Skyward Sword as well as the spirit Fi [SS]. 

The Sheikah tribe formed to serve and protect Hylia [SS]. 

The Sheikah possibly adopted the eyedrop symbol due to the Zonai’s third eye [MW p.303]. 

The Minish come to Hyrule sometime before the events of TMC’s backstory, possibly unknown to others, as we know they place items in grass, pots, etc. [TMC]. 

Demise and his demons came to Hyrule in a fissure in the ground [SS]. 

Demise was sent by Null through a rift from the Still World [EoW]. 

Hylia, with the help of Hylians, Gorons, Kikwi, Mogma, Parella, and Ancient Robots, stood against Demise and his demons. 

Hylia sealed Demise with the Sealing Spike in the Sealed Grounds [SS]. 

Hylia sent Skyloft with Hylians into the sky with a cloud barrier between it and the land [SS]. 

Hylia planned to reincarnate as a mortal to defend against Demise [SS]. 

Hylia sent Impa to the future to guide the former’s mortal form Zelda on her journey [SS]. 

Gorons moved into the Depths to Gorondia [TotK]. 

 

Sky Era/“Past” Skyward Sword Events 

Impa returned from the future in the Sealed Temple with Zelda, with Link following shortly. Zelda used her power to crystalize herself and enforce Demise’s Seal. Link returned to the future [SS]. 

Link came from SS present with Groose, planted the Life Tree Seedling, then returned to SS present [SS]. 

Ghirahim arrived in the past with Zelda, and Link followed. Ghirahim used Zelda to break the seal on Demise. Link defeated Demise, who cursed Link and Zelda in a cycle of darkness. Link, Zelda, and Groose returned to the future [SS]. 

Why Imprisoned appears in “Present” after Demise’s defeat in “Past” 

1. The Sealed Spike was put back into place to seal the evil from Demise’s curse. The Imprisoned was the first manifestation of evil from the curse. 
2. Bringing SS present Zelda into the past revived SS present Demise in the past. The Demise that was defeated is from AFTER the events of the Isle of the Goddess falling to the ground and enforcing the Sealed Spike in SS present. 
3. Time travel for a lot of the game seems to follow predestination, like Zelda’s bracelet being visible on Old Impa’s wrist near the beginning of the game [SS]. For the sake of story and gameplay, some elements seem to follow a changeable timeline model, like planting the Life Tree Seedling to change the future. I compare it to Oracle of Ages sometimes following predestination, like the Goron Vase, or sometimes changeable timeline with just about most of Veran’s actions. There was no attempt from the developers of SS to make the timeline of events make complete sense, to accommodate for the story and gameplay they wanted to tell.

 

Impa watched the Sealed Temple for millennia [SS]. 

“Present” Skyward Sword Events 

(No Summary, Just Theories) 

Zelda only needed to visit the Skyview/Power and Earth/Courage Springs since she was associated with Wisdom and was the first mortal incarnation of Hylia. 

I believe the Zonai built the Ancient Robots because of the similarities between the Zonaite Armor Helm in TotK seems to be like designs for the conveyor belts and other machinery in the SS Lanyaru region. The Zonai pattern, seen in the Zonai paraglider and many areas of the game, is also like the pattern found in the Lanayru Mining Facility and other areas in the region. 

After Skyward Sword 

SS Link, Zelda, and other Skyloftians created the first settlement of Hylians on the surface but did not found Hyrule. 

Gorons emerged from Gorondia now that Demise was defeated. 

Parella evolved into Zora. 

Kikwi evolved into Koroks. 

I believe Koroks are the true form, and they only transformed into the Kokiri later in the timeline so OoT Link felt normal until he grew to the age he would become the Hero of Time. 

The Hylians, Rito, Gorons, and Zora started settlements, and the Gerudo formed an independent country [MW, p. 3-4]. 

Theories on Ritos’ chronological appearance Pre-TWW 

1. BotW/TotK Rito evolved from pre-TotK founding Zora. 
2. BotW/TotK Rito seemingly did not need Valoo’s scales to grow wings, so they may be of different descent, possibly from Loftwings. 
3. Previous lore has been retconned for the sake of TotK’s story, A.K.A bird people look neat and would make a good race to represent Wind.

 

In secret from most on the surface, the Depths and Sky Zonai created the Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Water temples to regulate different environments of Hyrule [MW p. 4, 34-36]. 

The Fire Temple was possibly added to Gorondia after it was founded, likely to improve conditions of the city [MW, p. 35]. 

Some Zonai left the Great Sky Islands to form the City in the Sky, then evolved into the Oocca [TotK, TP]. 

At some point the Twili created Majora’s Maks and imprison Major inside [MM, TP]. 

Many people fought to obtain the Triforce, and the Twili attempted to use their dark magic to do so. The Golden Goddesses sent the Light Spirits to banish the Twili to the Twilight Realm and guard the Fused Shadows [TP]. 

The Triforce and Master Sword went missing and/or were forgotten. 

Hyrule Kingdom Foundation Period 

The sky Zonai returned to the surface to avoid danger [TotK; MW p. 4]. 

As mentioned earlier, it is possible the Forbidden Constructs attacked the Zonai before they ascended and after they descended. 

It is unclear if Rauru descended from the sky with the Zonai or if he was born on the surface later [MW, p.40] 

TotK Koume and Kotake were followers of Demise. They played a role in Ganondorf becoming evil, or they possibly used magic to channel Demise’s curse into a Gerudo male. We know that OoA/OoS Twinrova were surrogate mothers for that game’s Ganon. We also know that the OoT versions were also surrogate mothers go that games’ Ganon and lead the tribe from behind the scenes [HH, p. 90]. Whether OoT, OoA/OoS, and TotK Twinrova are the same or different is unknown, especially since they are 400 years old in OoT. They did argue about their real age in OoT, calling one another senile. This leads me to believe they could possibly be older than they say.  They may also reincarnate or have ancestors/descendants with similar names, like Beedle or Tingle, but they still play the same role. 

The Zonai/TotK Temple of Time was built on the ruins of the Sealed Temple [HH, p. 77]. 

Rauru and Sonia got married [TotK]. 

Rauru and Sonia had at least two children [MW, p. 91] 

One of their children is OoT Rauru. 

The other child, possibly female, continued the Royal Family lineage. 

The TotK Imprisoning War/Age of Imprisonment 

(No Summary, Just Theories) 

The Sealing of Malladus with the Spirit Tower in the Lokomo land that would become New Hyrule could have happened around the same time [ST]. 

Calamo had the Spirit of the Hero [TotK Ancient Hero not Hylian] 

Great Sky Island is raised into the sky [TotK; MW, p. 5] 

Lenalina made the mural in the Depths in the Forgotten Foundation [AoI]. 

Hyrule Castle is built over the Forgotten Foundation to enforce TotK’s Rauru’s seal on Ganondorf [TotK]. 

The Oocca made contact with the Royal Family [TP]. 

The Triforce and Master Sword are rediscovered. 

The OoT Temple of Time was built by OoT Rauru [OoT]. 

Rauru had access to the technology of or was assisted by the Oocca to build the ToT. Differences in design between OoT and TP ToT are different to match the game’s aethetic. 

Rauru and the other six Sages sealed the entrance to the Sacred Realm, then enforced it with the Master Sword and Ocarina of Time [OoT; ALBW].

NOTE ABOUT TOTK GANONDORF

There seems to be some confusion of if the events of TotK's backstory are forgotten by the time of TotK, including Ganondorf, what he did, etc. Here is a quote from TotK Masterworks translation, p. 11, proving that false:

>In the present era, many clues about the Goldy Era have become apparent. What was once concealed has been made visible, and many Zonai tribe ruins and inscriptions have been discovered. A lot is known about the founding period in particular, as Princess Zelda was able to travel through time and actually experience the state of past Hyrule. Of course, there isn’t an accurate grasp on everything, memories can become hazy, and there’s an undeniable possibility of misremembering. Nevertheless, it’s the breakthrough of the century in terms of understanding the events and geography of the time, and following Princess Zelda’s miraculous safe return, Hyrule’s researchers and archaeologists were in uproar.  Beginning with the Zonai civilisation, this section weaves together these fragments to explain Hyrule of the mythical era. Room still remains for supposition, and even now researchers continuously debate.

Proof that the events of TotK's backstory was forgotten until Zelda went back. Just for everyone's information so there is no more ambiguity for something spelled out plain as day.

Simple question, in games where the Sages/Maidens are not involved in the plot, who in the game, if anyone, would be those Sages of the respective eras? I will omit LA, MM, Oracles, PH, and TFH as they do not take place in Hyrule. I will also omit the main game of FS since it's harder to distinguish which characters could be Sages. Since Sage species are not always consistent between games, some are more wild guesses than others. Here are my best guesses, in release order.

TLoZ and TAoL

Old Men from the various villages.

FS's Backstory

Beyond Zelda, FS has no notable characters who could be the sages.

The maidens Vaati captured in the backstory of the game could have been Sage descendants.

TMC

Zelda

King Daltus

Smith

Gentari

Melari

Syrup

Siroc

SS

Zelda

Gaepora

Yerbal

Gorko

Jellyf

Guld

Impa

EoW

Zelda

Priest or Minister Lefte (Seres was the daughter of the Priest in ALBW, and Lefte looks more like that priest with glasses than the EoW Priest looks.)

Conde

Darston

Dradd or Kushara

Impa

Dohna

Any ideas from anyone else? Maybe others in TWW than Medli and Makar?

What do you think of supplementary materials and canon? I am talking about various dev interviews and books like Hyrule Historia, Zelda Encyclopedia, Creating a Champion, and TotK Masterworks/Secrets of the Zonai.

Elephant in the room with interviews and books, some of what was established in them has been retconned. Satoru Takizawa and Toru Osawa said around 1998 that OoT was the Imprisoning War, until HH retconned it. The Oracle games were before LA, until the Encyclopedia retconned it. Things CAN change.

I take the books as seriously as I take the lore in the games. After all, just because some things HAVE been retconned, I don't feel like we should just ignore the interviews and books that have not. Let's also not forget things have been retconned in the games, as the Master Sword was forged by the Sages, until SS retconned it. If we go the "ignore things that could potentially be retconned" route, we'd be ignoring info from the games as well.

I like and dislike different parts from the books.

I personally like this from the Zelda Encyclopedia, p. 70:

>Hyrule Castle, home of the royal family and seat of Hyrule's government, is the most beautiful palace in the kingdom. Over multiple eras, it has stood at the heart of Hyrule, a beacon of strength and residence of Princess Zelda.

Some who read that may want to split hairs and say that the heart of Hyrule may be metaphorical instead of literally in the middle of the land. There is another quote on the same page using the same wording that clarifies it's literal:

>In The Wind Waker, the castle is submerged along with most of Hyrule - frozen in time and standing precariously at the heart of a lake that has formed around it.

The Encylopedia released in 2018, so the games BotW, TotK, and Aoi and books CaC and MW/SotZ were not released yet. For the "TotK backstory = True Founding" people, this HC lore is interesting. At least in TLoZ through TFH, Hyrule Castle has always been in the same spot (more on TLoZ HC in a bit). Devil's advocate, it doesn't say that it couldn't have destroyed and rebuilt in the same location. If it was destroyed at any point, it would likely be OoT, assuming some kind of magic shenanigans weren't involved.

As for the location of HC in the original NES TLoZ, it's off screen, even for the expanded map of TAoL. Encyclopedia, p. 61:

>In The Legend of Zelda, Link's quest takes place in a fraction of the space seen in this map of A Link Between Worlds. By lining up the source of water flowing from the mountain, you can see they share Death Mountain [OP note: Mount Hebra in the Japanese versions of ALttP, ALBW, and all versions of EoW] to the north and a graveyard to the west.

This part of the lore kind of rubs me the wrong way, just because the world in ALttP was clearly based on TLoZ's map. Level 1 Eagle and Level 3 Manji are where HC would be. I also like this lore retcon at the same time because it shows that HC was still in the same spot and not destroyed in TLoZ, and the North Castle from TAoL was not the main HC of that era, something that can support the True Founding theory.

An unnecessary change to the lore regarding TWW is on the Encyclopedia, p. 58:

>[After Hyrule flooded] Zora's Domain became Dragon Roost Island.

It was clearly Death Mountain at the time the game was made. On the same page there is a concept illustration of unflooded TWW Hyrule shows smoke coming from it. Other games like BotW hint that Zora's Domain canonically moved around Hyrule or they do not alway live there. Just seems like they wanted to explain why the Rito, at least at the time the game was released, evolved from the Zora, like they couldn't just move to Death Mountain after the flood, but whatever. It's a throw away piece of lore that may not likely come up again.

What do you think of the information we get outside of the games? Is there any part of the lore from interviews or books that stands out to you, either because it is ridiculous, makes sense, etc.?

EoW established the Goddesses created Hyrule to seal Null. Was this seal just some offscreen magic or actually something we can visibly see in any of the games? I definitely have a theory about it.

I want to look at some similarities between enemies in EoW and Shades from Aoi. We see common enemies with a purple color in EoW, which were created by Null with a purple color scheme. They come through rifts in reality to the Still Realm. In Aoi we see the Zonai Shrines were built to ward off Shades, evil spirits made of Gloom (or miasma, as the Masterworks translation I reference below), with a color of whatever type of red you would call Gloom, similar to the color scheme of TotK Ganondorf's power. Calamo says that the Shades show up when "the land's not doin' so hot." That could be taken as turmoil in Hyrule, or possibly it could be taken literally. Could the Shades be related to these types of monsters Null produced in EoW? Keep this in mind while we switch topics.

In TotK and Aoi, the Sages' battled against Ganondorf in an area the TotK Masterworks says was called the Temple of Light. Familiar name and theories aside, I will treat it as a different area than the one from OoT. An English fan translation by u/livixbobbiex has this to mention about TotK's Temple of Light on p. 76:

>In [the time of Tears of the Kingdom] the place where the Demon King had been sealed was called by the name ‘Godly Era ruins’, but it’s been identified that it was built like a temple, and some priests have suggested it might be the ‘Temple of Light’ of legend. They probably chose it as the place of the final battle because of the advantage of some kind of sacred power.

Temple of Light has a sacred power? Special ground with sacred power is not uncommon in the Zelda series. What's so special about this version of the Temple of Light. It's what's underneath, on Masterwork translation p. 211-212:

>Demon King Ganondorf has been sitting in a cross legged pose on a giant tree in the deep Depths. This giant tree has roots spreading out across the Depths, and the Demon King has been using the roots to gather evil (supernatural power), and accumulating power. Furthermore the Demon King fell into the Depths, it appears that the miasma spewed out by the Demon King has been flooding the whole Depths. The place where the Demon King endeavours to recover has become known as ‘the source of miasma’ because of that kind of impact.

>In the first place, what’s the origin of this giant tree? It has been identified that the place currently known as ‘the site of the seal’ underneath Hyrule castle may have been the seal for the Demon King because it’s sacred ground. The underground ruins where the Demon King was sealed were built like a temple. What is the relationship between the underground temple and sacred ground, and the giant tree in the depths? Although the position of the temple and the giant tree are currently slightly separate, the fact that there is a wide void in the depths is a point of interest.

>Although it’s only speculation, perhaps this giant tree originally existed as a sacred tree? With a sacred existence, sacred ground may have been constructed as a source of power. It can be considered that people may have travelled to the underground temple to offer prayers for this very reason. However now it is infested with miasma, there is no trace of sacred ground, and it is unclear if the giant tree has been used for anything other than the Demon King’s recovery.

While this says the sacred purpose of the tree is speculation, nothing else in the book directly contradicts it, so I will go with it. If the tree seems to be sacred, why would Ganondorf be able to use it to build up his evil power? To be fair, it could be a neutral sacred power like the Triforce or Secret Stones.

Let's put it all together.

Shades seem to have similar circumstances to appear as some evil Echo monsters in EoW.

Beneath the Temple of Light is a sacred tree.

Ganondorf is able to use this sacred tree to restore power.

The Sacred Tree is the seal on Null.