I have a question for those on here who grew up in religious conservative households and had to unlearn all the patriarchal bs. I've had to unlearn a lot over the years and now I prefer to be spiritual and not religious. I do believe in God and I don't think I'll ever not believe in God, but I wanna ask yall how do you personally connect with God especially if you've faced religious trauma in the past around version of religion that degrades and objectifies women.

>The numbers speak to fears that women – particularly students and others of low income – are being financially incentivised to donate their eggs amid a cost of living crisis.

Egg donation has been on the rise in the UK (as well as other developed countries). The biggest demographic change? Donors, young women, who are under the age of 25. The vast majority of these women all coming from low-income backgrounds as well.

Egg donation, like surrogacy, often ends up targeting women who come from low-income families or ends up targeting women from majority developing nations. All of the advertising and discussion around these methods of infertility treatment often cast it as a call to sisterhood, helping women who otherwise cannot conceive on their own.

What these discussions never talk about, on the other hand, is how donors over the last decade have self reported a loss of fertility themselves, as well as higher instances of breast cancer, endometriosis and PCOS.

Hello, I am hoping this type of post is allowed. I am understand 4B usually pertains to romantic relationships, however I was wondering if anyone here has cut contact with their father? And what was the turning point? I suppose I’m afraid that my reasoning isn’t “good enough” to cut contact with him, or that I’m just “exaggerating”.

Frankly, I have a strained relationship with my father. On paper, our family seems put together. However, behind closed doors, my father is misogynist, a white supremacist (while having mixed race children), angry, and vain. He is a deeply insecure man and has projected his shortcomings unto our entire family. He’s obsessed with upholding his image and appearance, and constantly sucks up to other men. For as long as I can remember, he has always made me feel horrible about myself, always telling me I won’t do something, how I never want anything bad enough, how I don’t try at anything, and a slew of other things. Merely being in his presence is enough to constantly rattle my self esteem.

I remember the last time I tried to write him a birthday card, there was nothing to write. Instead, I started crying. And in fact, I’m crying while writing this post. Every time I write in my journal, I always fantasize about how I will cut contact with him.

I never truly realized how much he has affected me until now. I made a goal to get away from him. I’m still young, only a year into my first real job after college, but I want to pack up my entire life and get away from him. In a month, I’m leaving my job to go backpacking, and I have plans to move to another country after. I’m financially independent. I don’t want to speak to him for a long, long, time. But sometimes, I wonder if I will regret a decision like this, because he’s my dad. But I resent him so much, and I rage at the thought of him.

So tell me, does anyone here have an estranged relationship with their father despite them not doing anything “horrible” to you?

Idk if I’m asking for advice or if this is going to be a long rant/venting session. Either way it will be long, so keep scrolling if you don’t have the patience today.

There is no TL;DR except: I’m done with women who prop up abusive men (at least I want to be… I think?)

I’m currently mourning the loss (again) of my sister. Not literally as she’s still very much alive, but figuratively. She spent the past several years in an extremely abusive marriage. One fraught with violence, terror, financial abuse, psychological abuse and manipulation. We honestly thought she would never leave. Every time there was a new “event” I would think, ok, this has to be the last straw. This has to be her rock bottom. She will wake up, pack her things and leave. I was hopeful many times in those years only to be let down. I accepted that the most likely outcome would be a phone call, telling us he killed her. But finally. Fucking finally the day came. Not even by choice, but because she literally had to flee to escape one of his rage spirals. She got her own apartment, and left him with everything. It was tough but everyone rallied around to support her. To make sure she knew that even though building her life back up would be hard, it would be worth it. And her support system was there every step of the way: financially, morally, emotionally. We hoped the freedom, connecting again with friends and family that were once shut out, would spark new life in her. I was so happy. I finally felt like I had my sister back. For the first time in years we could talk again. Without the lies, without the interruptions. Even though I can’t understand why she still won’t stand up to her ex, by taking back her house (which he is staying in and refusing to let her sell), or why she never reported him to the police. I decided that divorcing him and moving out was a significant step, and I should just help her focus on the things she did right. I had to swallow my opinions. Because they never helped in the past, and I was just happy to have my sister back.

Then I noticed the signs again. Less phone calls, less texting, more withdrawn, more vague. Every one of my spidey senses firing but ignoring them because, no, there is no way. There is literally no fucking possible way after what she’s been through, and now having a taste of freedom, that she would do this again. But there it was. A bright smiling picture of her with another man. Not her most recent ex, but a different one. And by different I only mean technically not the same person. But somehow the same in every way. Another dead beat loser who has moved in with her. Because “he’s going through a lot” (by a lot she means a divorce, custody battle, and restraining order). Because he’s “between jobs”. Because “he had a hard childhood” (and that’s why he’s so socially inept and lacks boundaries). And here I am again. Watching the car crash in slow motion, spending nights without my sister, watching her lay the same path she just walked down. Parallel but with new bricks. And always the same reasons why this guy is different. All the people that were there for her at her lowest, dropped overnight, without a word or an apology.

Somehow I am both paralyzed by disbelief and enraged at the decisions she has made. I’m angry at her for putting everyone through this again, I’m angry at her for having so little self respect, and so little respect for her friends and family who were also victims to her abusers actions. I’m angry at her for throwing this back in everyone’s faces and dropping us like we don’t exist anymore. I’m angry at how her actions have made me less empathetic to all women. I’m angry that I’m more disappointed in her, than I am with these loser men. I’m just so fucking angry.

And here I am venting to internet strangers. Because I can’t even get myself to send her a text. My anger would just come pouring out of me. I would not be able to hold any name calling in, or start listing all the selfish things she’s done. And I know doing so would close the door on our relationship again. I don’t know what to do. I can’t bring myself to pretend everything is fine just to keep her in my life like I did last time. The only thing I can rationalize is that she’s an addict. Addicted to love, or abusive men, or toxic relationships, idk. All I can see is the same addict behavior: lying about her new relationship, covering up that he’s living with her, lying about what he does for work, lying about how much money she’s giving him, minimizing his behavioral issues, distancing herself from friends and family. She lies because she knows what she’s doing is wrong. And just like an addict she will try to cover it up, rationalize it, minimize it, and refuse to acknowledge the problem.

I want to cry and scream at the same time. I want to shake her and wake her up from this. And I want to yell at every woman who has stayed in abusive relationships and put their families through absolute hell. I want all the women who prop up abusive men to take accountability. I want a fucking apology for being dropped from her life the moment a new man walks in.

And that’s what I hate most of all. I hate how I see her now, and I hate the angry person I’ve become. All I know is I can’t do this again. And I’m not sure what that means… I don’t want to say goodbye. I just want to cry and I just want her to love herself.

If I close the door on one woman who centers men, am I closing the door on all women?

The title says it all. The cat fights, gossip, manipulating, gatekeeping, stealing each other’s “man” etc. Women who are in conflict with each other often are in this artificial dysfunctional state because of men. Women are suffering from divide and conquer, and because of this belief that they need a man for survival (resources, education, a nice lifestyle or basic survival, etc.), they put up with all his dysfunction, but they become dysfunctional themselves, because they believe they need to compete with other women for that man in order to keep the survival resources. They act that way mainly for survival.

But I have noticed that in a space like this, the 4B space, when men are de-centered, there is something different happening. The woman starts to become more of who she truly is. I believe the true nature of women is love. Her true loving nature is drained and abused when with a man- it’s like trying to love a crocodile that can only bite. But I’ve noticed that women are more harmonious with each other in this space, because there is a fundamental change in the operating system after that decentering happens. It makes me think of a beautiful future with possibilities. Women living free and alone, but also in harmony together, or women living together- I wonder what could be the source of conflict if that main one is removed. Usually women- friends, family, coworkers, strangers- compete over things like looks, fashion, body shape, status, etc. but it usually boils down to the desirability factor with men. With that factor removed, I wonder how the female relationships would be. Even in the online space I find it more harmonious, but in real life also I think it can also be quite fruitful. Especially when we are able to heal and find new ways to construct our lives and dynamics with women. If we don’t need to attract men, and have resources to live and survive (this is the part to figure out) then we women don’t have a reason to be in conflict with each other. I think we are wired for harmony and sisterhood (not in the brotherhood fake bonding way of getting together to bash and bully women), and we should not let men take away that inner core of love and harmony.

p.s : Many women in religious female spaces like nunneries etc. can also be cruel to each other because there’s a hierarchy (ie mother superior etc)- but they are operating within a system that is dominated by men, so even if they are celibate, it seems to have similarities to the brothels with hierarchies (ie the madame etc.). But I think it’s because they are trying to function in a system that is catering to the male gaze- whether by surveillance or power/lust. There is a theory that Buddha’s teachings “went downhill because they allowed women to become nuns” - but it’s not because of the nuns themselves, but rather that the men could not handle the women coming into that space with all their power and lustful dysfunction (and of course they blamed it on the women). I have observed that many women are naturally more spiritually inclined and many are naturally celibate compared to men.

In my culture(Turkey) , terms for sexual harassment are used as swear words and no one sees this as a problem. Some people are quite foul mouthed and use these words even in normal situations. And it’s not just men who use them girls do too.

I hate that girls see this as normal. When I object to it people assume I have trauma. But I’m speaking out because I believe this is wrong. I also hate the idea that you have to be a victim to speak out against something.

Spoilers ahead for anyone who might be interested in watching this movie, I hid the movie title since my vent involves an important detail of the twist and main plot point of the movie.

I recently watched the movie >!Sister Death (original title "Hermana Muerte") a horror movie from Spain. The main character is a nun who was transferred and arrives at a reopened convent.!<

In the major reveal of the story, the main character ends up >!getting visions of the past, how during war times, some men invade the convent, and of course a disgusting man rapes a nun.!<

>!His rape ends up getting her pregnant, and the poor nun births a daughter. During an event where they forcefully separate the child from the nun mom, where they're trying to bring the child's fever down, they accidentally kill her (I have no fucking idea why they couldn't let the mom be with her??).!<

>!The main character basically unleashes the spirit of the mom, and in some weird time loop, the mom's soul murders all the nuns responsible for her daughter's death, which, totally fair.!<

So what I haven't been able to stop thinking about is... >!the nuns are shitty here sure, I can understand the grudge the mom's spirit feels...!< but how about giving some comeuppance to the man who raped her?? They depict "the act of rape" as something horrible yes, but he basically gets NO punishment on screen nor it is implied in any way, and the movie >!makes the actions of the nuns be considered worse since they're the ones who get majorly fucked over.!<

>!I understand that the nuns were the ones who fucked up killing the child yes, and the rape itself wasn't the point of the story.., but it irks me still that the man raping a nun... is more like "sth bad happened to a nun and this convent, ohhhh"!< and that's it?? I don't know how to explain it.

Like, sure the movie doesn't really brush away the rape, that's how this whole mess started... but also, I feel like it's kinda, moved aside pretty fast, and the "truly" bad thing happens later.

I don't know how to explain it, maybe I'm wrong. I enjoyed the movie up until that point, and I'm not even super squeamish about dark topics in movies... but it's just depressing me at this point, because men raping but the majority not facing actual justice is horribly common in real life.

I’ve read the following multiple times and wanted to know what everyone thinks.

These are the so called “Rules of Misogyny”, and they seem helpful in quickly assessing arguments, but are they fair or accurate? How do they fit into 4B?

1. Women are responsible for what men do.

2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.

5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.

7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.

12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.

14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.

16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

I was inspired to post this because I recently had a conversation with a former escort about how women in sex work* seem to have a more sober view of gender dynamics and men compared to other women, who are usually shocked to hear the stories coming from sex workers. We mainly discussed how "married, upstanding family men" act around women they consider even lower on the hierarchy and that their clients are not always the stereotypical "lonely drunk" type but average men you'd walk past the street or at your job. She isn't committed to 4B herself but jokingly said that any pro-sex work feminists who decry 4B as "too radical" should try working in a brothel for a month and see if avoiding men is so unreasonable after all.

*TBC I don't like the term "sex worker" because I associate it with the slimy way liberal feminists/pro-SW people sometimes use it. But "prostitute/escort" is a specific term and doesn't encompass camgirls or porn actresses, who deal with different dynamics and issues and whose perspective is also important.

I really loathe Mother's Day for so many reasons. I usually try to avoid going out but I had a really bad day yesterday and don't want to sit around sulking so I'm going to the museum anyway.

Why the hate?

1. Men make every woman they see a mother and think they should be rewarded for giving us all a Happy Mother' Day in the style of a catcall. Most view it as a pickup line and/or some kind of reparations. They don't even know if you are a mom or not. Which is also enraging because it shows they see us all as moms first and foremost. We don't just yell Happy Father's Day to anyone with a penis. Why do they think this is normal? If I say I don't have kids they say well you may with no regard to if I want kids, can't have kids, or lost kids. Then they will say it's to honor all women. No, it's not. It's to honor mothers. If they want to just honor women then they can do that on the daily. Most won't even acknowledge the single month dedicated to us. Then they will say, well it's because I have a mom...
2. But I don't. People have no idea of one's relationship to motherhood. Many women had absent mothers, mothers who are dead, moms who were abusive or maybe even never met their mom. My mom was a neglectful drug addict and she died. My feelings about motherhood are not warm and fuzzy.
3. Then, there is the obligation for us to acknowledge any mom no matter the history. I just sent my stepmom the obligatory text. I have no feelings about this woman that naturally make me want to do this. She is manipulative and judgmental. So today I'm supposed to act like we are really family and have a relationship?
4. Every place is crowded. I'm taking myself to the museum but know it is going to be overrun with families. I'll make the best of it because I know there is no safe space, lol. And again, I don't want to stay at home after a crappy Saturday.
5. And I have to go to the museum alone. I don't mind doing things by myself, like at all. But people pity those who are alone on Mother's Day, especially women. All of my local friends are actually with their moms so I have no choice but to be looked at as “pathetic“. Fine, whatever. My usual solo Mother's Day tradition is to actually watch some fucked up mom movie to be ironic. The last two years it was Eve's Bayou (fucked up dad moreso but the mom was a pick me enabler) and The Joy Luck Club.
6. And most importantly one single day does not absolve all of the trauma, unpaid labor, expectation, and coercive history of motherhood. Some flowers and brunch do not even the score. And shit, so many deserving mothers still get nothing today and are just tasked with carrying on as usual. Or they do get taken out but still did all the planning and are wrangling children at the cafe table and the dad gets praised for "honoring" her. Let alone the amount of wives and girlfriends who end of buying the man's mom the gifts and planning the outing.

Any one else have salty thoughts about today?

ETA: I have no idea why some are interpreting this post as hating moms. I literally say in the post Mother’s Day doesn't come anywhere close to honoring mothers. I didn’t say I want the day to be abolished or that no mom is worth celebrating. I actually wished several women in my life Happy Mother’s Day and think they are great moms who should be rewarded for all they do. That doesn’t negate the negative personal feelings I have about the day and my experiences. Not everyone will relate.

Among animals, males tend to be more beautiful. This is called sexual dimorphism and an example is how male ducks have vibrant colors compared to the muted browns of females, or how male lions have thick manes while females don’t. This is so common among animals and in contrast, I find it so odd that with humans, males are… Rarely nice to look at.
 
Male animals look beautiful and impressive for that specific reason - to impress females. It’s how animals were built, for males to try to impress females and for females to be (hopefully) impressed. That is the natural order: males are beggars, females are choosers.
 
Females of any species have many options but also take on a higher risk and burden, so naturally, we should be picky and choose whoever impresses us the most.
 
Yet we live in a world where that natural order has been flipped upside down. Men all over the world roll out of bed and go to work after doing the bare minimum of a “get ready” routine (and many not even that), whereas we women spend our entire lives chasing beauty. We’re trying to impress men, whereas men are waiting to be impressed. We are the beggars and men the choosers in today’s society.
 
Imagine all the beauty products you’ve bought that a man didn’t have to buy - every hair tool and product, every skincare product, every hair removal product, every pantyhose and every bra, every makeup product, every jewelry piece, every laser or Botox or facial treatment, every manicure and pedicure, every single little thing you’ve paid for in order to make yourself prettier. Imagine if every single payment you made for these products was returned to your bank account. You’d be able to buy a house with it, pay for an expensive education, some women would be able to never work another day in their life. We pay so much in order to look beautiful, in order to ultimately… Impress men. Whether we want to do so directly or we just follow the status quo, the ultimate reason “why” is to impress men.
 
They’ve turned the natural order around. They’ve brainwashed us into doing the work of pursuing them and have therefore freed men of their natural role, while also making us pay expensively to do the pursuing. Society has forced us to take on a role we’re not even supposed be in, and instead of getting a reward for doing the work we shouldn’t be doing in the first place, we’re made to pay for it.
 
Imagine this scenario as a job ad: you’ll be employed to work and on top of that, you’re expected to do all the tasks that belong to your coworker. Your salary is that you every month owe the company money and have to pay to remain employed, so that you can keep picking up your coworker’s slack. Would you accept such a shitty deal?
 
On top of this, women are expected to be incubators, to do the childcare, the cooking, the cleaning, to carry the mental load of running a household, and to be both a therapist and a sex slave to her male partner. All of this, while we’re also expected to respect him as the leader of the household and expected to give the children his name.
 
All of this is so absurdly wrong. We’re not supposed to be the beggars, yet here we are, collectively working our asses off to impress men who don’t even deserve to be impressed. Men should be the ones changing their faces and bodies, squeezing themselves into shapewear and heels, being shamed for their hair growth (or lack thereof), panting their faces to look beautiful before they feel able to walk outside the door. They’ve fucked up the natural order for all of us and now we’re paying for it, and I’m livid.
 
And while I’m livid, I’m also elated. I might not be able to opt out fully (going to work without a bra would get me sent to HR because apparently my natural body in its natural state, clothed but not restricted, is inappropriate?), but I’m so relieved I don’t have to view men as an audience I need to impress. I don’t even want them to impress me either, I just want them far away from me, and apparently that’s too much to ask for.

I've noticed time and again that "the village/it takes a village" saying is only ever aimed at women, or used when trying to rope other women into taking on extra labor left by men (usually fathers and husbands) who can't even be bothered to adequately care for their own children themselves.

As a childfree woman, I'm tired of being told (yes, even by other women, including feminist ones) that I'm "meant" to be around children just by virtue of being a woman, or that men being inadequate partners means that women as a whole are inherently "meant" to do the additional domestic and childcare labor instead.

It almost sounds like a repackaged version of the, "women are meant to do housework and cooking and cleaning because they're just better at it," argument I've seen repeatedly used by men, but regarding child-related duties.

It may be well-intentioned, but there's a point where its repeated usage becomes almost insulting and patronizing, especially when it's used to shut down the voices of women who speak out about the constant expectation for them to step up and be "the village" for 1) children who aren't theirs, 2) children they did not consent to raise or do labor for, and 3) labor that will not be reciprocated for them in return (basically, a one-way village for unpaid childcare from other women).

Additionally, I've noticed cases where childless and childfree women will voice discomfort or concern with the behavior of someone else's children (especially boy children), and other women simply dismiss their concerns by saying, "well, it takes a village <3" that comes off as patronizing and tone-deaf, and it's only ever used disproportionately on women.

I've seen some women argue that because many men are not equipped to competently or adequately care for children, that women doing the bulk of the labor should be non-issue, but it's honestly wild to me that's the conclusion some of you are coming to.

Like, "yes, men are often unreliable, selfish, and potentially irresponsible partners, so that's why we should keep birthing children with them and have other women raise those children instead!! <333"

That's your takeaway? Seriously?

I already work full-time and spend part of my weekends running errands and catching up on my own domestic work. I'm not sure why you think it's on me (or other women in general) to do additional unpaid work on top of that like we're childcare dispensaries? Or that we're enthusiastically on standby to do these things because your male partner won't?

I understand that motherhood is difficult, but as someone who grew up in a household where I was expected to do more work compared to my stepdad or brother, I'm also tired of seeing these talking points go unchallenged (including in feminist spaces) because, "well, women are just better for kids to be around so that's why they should do it <3."

To add to this, I've noticed that women are policed a lot more regarding whether or not they like kids compared to men in the same age brackets who openly declare their disdain for children and/or keep company with men in hobby groups and spaces that largely aren't child-friendly.

On a side note, I remember when I hate my late twenties and started getting asked, "do you like kids?" a lot more by other women when people found out I didn't have any compared to my brother and male acquaintances who virtually never got asked the same question despite also being childless/childfree and in the same age bracket.

After hearing from so many members that they appreciated hearing the positives of what 4B has done for other sisters, we see having a consistent place to post positive improvements and reminders would benefit the sub. So, without further ado-

In the last week:

Tell us about positive interactions or building relationships with other women. How did you support and uplift other women? How have other women helped and supported you?

What accomplishments have you made? What goals have you set for yourself? What goals have you achieved?

What small changes have you noticed since adopting the lifestyle? What big changes?

Share anything and everything positive here.

On Mother’s day (a day that typically celebrates the ball and chain of biological motherhood and enslavement to a man), I came across a blast from the past song Love Fool today- a song of lack, longing, and powerlessness of a woman clinging to a man that does not love her. I used to love this song and found its melody intoxicating, and in the past I found this feeling of longing for a man (a state of lack) to also be intoxicating, so I guess this song resonates with the disempowered woman’s mind. I looked at the lyrics today and was shaking my head but also seeing how far I have come in my 4B journey to reject this mentality:

Dear, I fear we're facing a problem
You love me no longer, I know and
Maybe there is nothing that I can do 
To make you do
Mama tells me I shouldn't bother
That I ought just stick to another man
A man that surely deserves me
But I think you do

So I cry and I pray and I beg

Love me love me
Say that you love me
Fool me fool me
Go on and fool me
Love me love me
Pretend that you love me
Leave me leave me
Just say that you need me

So I cry and I beg for you to

Love me love me
Say that you love me
Leave me leave me
Just say that you need me
I can't care 'bout anything but you

Lately I have desperately pondered
Spent my nights awake and I wonder
What I could have done in another way
To make you stay
Reason will not lead to solution
I will end up lost in confusion
I don't care if you really care
As long as you don't go

So I cry, I pray, and I beg

Love me, love me
Say that you love me
Fool me, fool me
Go on and fool me
Love me, love me
Pretend that you love me
Leave me, leave me
Just say that you need me

So I cry and I beg for you to

Love me, love me
Say that you love me
Leave me, leave me
Just say that you need me
I can't care 'bout anything but you

Hi! I’m an Indian American woman hoping to connect with other women in the U.S., especially other South Asian women, who align with the 4B mindset and want to build lives that aren’t centered around men. It’s been surprisingly hard to find women with similar perspectives in real life, so I thought I’d put this out here and hopefully meet some like minded people. I’m absolutely open to friendships with non South Asian women as well!

Open to DMs and also interested in joining any existing group chats or communities on IG, Discord, etc. if anyone knows of any 😇