u/AnyPangolin9185

I’m so tired of the “Nesta was horrible to Feyre, therefore everything Feyre does to Nesta is justified” argument. And I genuinely think Feyre gets WAY more grace than Nesta does when it comes to their relationship.

I just don’t understand why they automatically turns Feyre into this innocent sister who just kept loving Nesta despite everything. Because when you actually look at Feyre’s POV, she carries a LOT of resentment toward Nesta. And if we’re actually going by the books and not just “Feyre is the narrator so Feyre is right,” there are quite a few things that make Feyre’s treatment of Nesta look pretty ugly.

1. Feyre’s opinion of Nesta is negative from the very beginning.

Feyre’s entire view of Nesta in ACOTAR is basically built around resentment. In the first chapter of TAR, Feyre literally describes Nesta as:

“prone to crave anything someone else possessed.”

That’s Feyre’s internal narration. Not Nesta saying it about herself. Not an objective narrator. And we see the same thing throughout the first book. Feyre constantly thinks about Nesta in terms of what Nesta didn’t do for her.

But then we find out something Feyre didn’t know at the time. Nesta resisted the glamour and therefore knew Feyre had been taken by Tamlin and actually went after her. She hired a mercenary with the money from Feyre’s pelt, travelled through the winter woods for days and made it all the way to the Wall. She couldn’t get through it, but she still tried. That’s a pretty important detail considering the entire foundation of Feyre’s resentment is basically “Nesta didn’t care whether I lived or died.”Except… Nesta literally went looking for her.

And Feyre’s reaction is basically shock because she had spent all that time believing nobody had cared enough to look for her. But Feyre’s own reaction tells us how significant this was:

“You went after me—to Prythian?”

And later:

“You’re my sister,” was all Feyre said.

So Feyre herself acknowledges that Nesta tried to save her. Yet somehow the fandom still treats the “Nesta didn’t care whether Feyre lived or died” interpretation as fact. It isn’t.

And then there is something people REALLY don’t talk about enough. Nesta actually explains why she treated Feyre the way she did. In ACOSF, Nesta explains that she resented Feyre because Feyre was the one person who could actually force their father to confront reality. Nesta basically saw Feyre’s hunting as something their father should have been doing himself.

2. Feyre knows Nesta loved her. She just keeps framing Nesta through the worst possible version of her.

This is what bothers me. Feyre doesn’t just remember Nesta’s actions. She repeatedly assigns motives to them. And Feyre’s thoughts about Nesta are treated like objective descriptions of Nesta’s character.

-Nesta spends Feyre’s money? Nesta is selfish.
-Nesta is angry? Nesta hates her.
-Nesta refuses to be warm and affectionate? Nesta doesn’t care.

But when we finally get Nesta’s POV, we learn there was a completely different internal story going on. Nesta explains that she deliberately spent Feyre’s money because she wanted their father to finally do something. She hated their father for failing them and especially, for failing their mother. Was that a healthy way to handle it? Obviously not. But it matters that Nesta’s behavior had a reason that Feyre didn’t understand. And that is something I wish people would remember when judging Nesta entirely through Feyre’s POV. And This is where I think Feyre gets away with a lot because she’s the narrator.

3. Feyre is perfectly capable of being cruel to Nesta too.

People love quoting Nesta’s insults toward Feyre, but they conveniently forget Feyre’s own. One example is when Nesta is considering Tomas. Feyre repeatedly makes digs about Tomas and Nesta’s marriage prospects like:

“While Tomas might want to marry you … you’re a burden.”

At one point, after Nesta warns Feyre to be careful, Feyre responds:

“What about your Tomas Mandray?”

And the thing is, Feyre actually knew something important about Tomas that Nesta didn’t. She knew his father abused his wife. And Feyre eventually tells Nesta:

“Whatever you do, don’t marry Tomas Mandray. His father beats his wife, and none of his sons do anything to stop it.”

So Feyre was right to warn her. But why did she wait until she was literally leaving for Prythian to tell Nesta? Because Feyre had been talking about Nesta’s marriage and Tomas before this but she didn’t tell her the actual danger until then.

It’s a small example, but it shows that Feyre and Nesta were not operating in some dynamic where Nesta was the cruel sister and Feyre was simply taking it. They both knew how to hit each other’s weak spots.

4. And then ACOSF happens, and Feyre gets power over Nesta.

This is where I REALLY struggle to understand how people can talk about Nesta’s lack of respect for Feyre while ignoring Feyre’s complete lack of respect for Nesta’s autonomy. This is where I think the fandom really needs to separate “Nesta needed help” from “Feyre was justified in everything she did.”

Nesta was literally taken from the human world, transformed into High Fae, dragged into a war, and had her entire future changed without her consent. Yet when Nesta is spiraling after the war, Feyre’s solution isn’t really “what do YOU want?”..... It’s “this is what we’re doing with you.”

Listen to what Feyre actually says when confronting Nesta.

“It is about how it reflects upon me, upon Rhys, and upon my court…”

And then:

“If my sister cannot be controlled, then why should we have the right to rule over anyone else?”

And Nesta responds:

“I am not a thing to be controlled by you.”

And Feyre’s answer?

“That’s why you’re going to train at Windhaven. You will learn to control yourself.”

Then Nesta says she won’t go.

Feyre says:

“You’re going, even if you have to be tied up and hauled there.”

This isn’t me calling Feyre controlling. Feyre literally says she needs to control Nesta. And yes, Nesta was spiraling. Yes, she needed help. But there is a difference between “I’m worried about my sister and I want to help her” and “you don’t get to decide what happens to you anymore.”

That entire conversation is incredibly revealing. Because Feyre isn’t just angry that Nesta is hurting herself. She’s also angry that Nesta’s behavior reflects badly on her, Rhys and their court. That’s not exactly sisterly concern anymore. There is a political element to it. And Feyre has the power to enforce it. And this is the same Feyre who spent the first books fighting against people controlling her choices. The irony is almost painful.

5. Feyre doesn’t just tell Nesta to get help. She takes away her home.

And Feyre doesn’t just send her to the House. They close up Nesta’s apartment. They take her things. They decide where she will live. They decide what she’ll do. And Feyre even says she’s having the entire building condemned. Imagine if Nesta had done that to Feyre. The fandom would be talking about it for YEARS.

Then there’s the part that really gets me. Feyre was once the person who hated having her choices taken away from her. She hated Tamlin locking her in the manor. She hated being kept uninformed. She hated people deciding what was best for her. She literally went to war against that kind of treatment. And then when she has the power in the relationship with Nesta…she does basically the same thing.

And when she says no, Feyre basically tells her she doesn’t get to say no. Again, I’m not arguing that Nesta was fine and didn’t need intervention. I’m saying that the way Feyre handled it is much more authoritarian than people want to admit. And Feyre isn’t some powerless sister doing this. She’s High Lady who has money and political power. She has Rhys, Cassian, Amren and the entire Inner Circle behind her. Nesta has basically none of that. So when Feyre says “you’re going even if you have to be tied up and hauled there,” it’s not an empty threat. She actually has the power to make it happen.

6. And the pregnancy situation makes Feyre’s treatment of Nesta even harder for me to ignore.

Then there’s the pregnancy plot. Rhys and IC keep the fact that Feyre could die giving birth, from her. Nesta finds out. And eventually Nesta tells Feyre. People LOVE using this moment as proof that Nesta wanted to hurt Feyre. But even Feyre herself doesn’t ultimately reduce it to that. Feyre admits: “She had the courage to tell me the truth."

And when Cassian says Nesta told her to hurt her, Feyre doesn’t actually accept that explanation. She says Nesta was the only one who told her anything. Think about that. The sister everyone keeps calling cruel is the one who tells Feyre that she could die. Meanwhile, the people closest to Feyre knew and deliberately kept her in the dark. And yet Nesta is still the villain of the situation.

This is why I have such a problem with the way Feyre and Nesta’s relationship is discussed. Nesta’s cruelty is always treated as proof of who she is. But Feyre’s anger, resentment and control are usually treated as understandable because we experience them through Feyre’s POV.

And I actually think this situation exposes something really important about the sisters. Feyre’s entire story is full of her demanding to know the truth and demanding the right to make decisions about her own body and life. But when Nesta’s choices are being taken away? Feyre is participating in the same system. The difference is that Nesta doesn’t have the power Feyre has.

So again, we have this weird situation where Nesta’s actions get interpreted through the worst possible motive, while IC and Rhys withholding information from Feyre herself gets framed as protection. And honestly? Nesta was the one treating Feyre like an adult in that situation.

7. Feyre’s own narration is not neutral.

This is probably my biggest point. People quote Feyre’s thoughts about Nesta like they’re objective descriptions. They’re not. Feyre spent years resenting Nesta. She believed Nesta didn’t care about her. She believed Nesta was selfish. She believed Nesta wanted what other people had. She had a very specific image of her sister before we ever got inside Nesta’s head.

Then ACOSF comes along and suddenly we see that Nesta’s internal world is MUCH more complicated than Feyre’s earlier narration suggested. And I don’t think that means Feyre was lying. I think Feyre was biased. She just interprets Nesta’s actions through the worst possible lens. Feyre experienced Nesta as cruel. Nesta experienced herself as angry, ashamed, resentful, traumatized and completely incapable of expressing affection normally. Both can exist at the same time. And only one of them spent most of the first three books controlling the narrative. And that’s Feyre.

So, I’m not going to pretend Feyre was some endlessly patient little sister who did nothing but love Nesta until Nesta finally pushed her too far. Because once Feyre becomes powerful enough to actually control Nesta’s life, she does exactly that. And honestly, the most interesting part is that Nesta eventually has to confront her own behavior and take responsibility for it. But Feyre rarely gets that same level of scrutiny.

People will dissect Nesta’s every cruel sentence from TAR and MAF, but somehow Feyre saying “you’re going even if you have to be tied up and hauled there” gets filed under “she was just trying to help her sister.” ……Why? Because some people like Feyre. Because she’s the protagonist. Because we experienced everything through her eyes first. But being the narrator doesn’t automatically make someone objective.

And I think if we actually judge both sisters by the same standard, their relationship looks VERY different. Nesta was cruel to Feyre. Feyre was cruel to Nesta too. The difference is that by ACOSF, Feyre has the money, power, status and entire Inner Circle behind her. Nesta doesn’t. And that’s a pretty important difference that I rarely see discussed.

My heart genuinely breaks when I think about what Lucien went through. He had to flee the Autumn Court after his own family killed the woman he loved and his brothers tried to kill him. Then he spent 49 years under Amarantha’s curse in the Spring Court. Then the whole ordeal with Hybern in SC. And then he leaves the Spring Court with Feyre, basically clinging to one tiny chance of seeing his mate… only to end up stuck in the Night Court, completely alone and displaced. And when he’s offered new clothes, his first thought is literally, “Is there a cost?”

My BABYYYYYYY 😭😭😭

This man has been surviving for centuries and still expects kindness to come with a price. I am glad he found “Band of Exiles”. I just want him to have a HOME and someone who chooses him for once. 💔

***Spoiler for Acosf and CC3***

I know it’s been discussed many times, but with new books coming, here we go again. I actually think Nesta is connected to Dusk Court and will definitely move there in next books. It makes way more sense than people give it credit for.

The biggest reason for me to believe it to be true is that the whole Acosf basically puts Nesta at the centre of the lost court mystery. Rhys says that the Prison island may have been an 8th court and when Nesta reaches for the harp, she sees an eighth pointed star beneath it. She even says that the magic there feels different from NC magic.

And I think till now most of the fandom already agrees that Prison is the 8th court and that is Dusk obviously. The more important question is who it belongs to?

Nesta is surely connected to it…A very obvious reason is Nesta has the eight pointed star tattoo. Nesta already has an unusual connection to the Cauldron and the trove. Nesta is literally the person who can interact with the objects tied to the history of that place. The trove also repeatedly calls to her because she was Made from the Cauldron. And i do think she has some special connection to Mother herself. Many times Eris also pointed out to Nesta that she is completely wasted at NC. Many passages also hint that Nesta belonged in the Dusk Court and they are:

“The words tumbled out as Nesta waded back through the ward-heavy cavern, feeling that center spot, the star at its heart, like a physical presence at her back. Those vast, light hands seemed to pull at her, trying to make her return”

And

“The hair on the back of her neck stood.
She could have sworn the blood in her body reversed course. She had the creeping feeling she'd been brought here. Not by the Cauldron or the Mother or the Harp. By something vaster. Something that stretched into the stars carved all around them. It’s cool, light hands guided her wrists as she picked up the Harp.”

And CC3 makes the connection even harder to ignore. Bryce literally gives Nesta Gwydion and tells her to figure out why she has the eight pointed star on her back. That feels like very intentionally done by SJM for next book’s plot.

Plus, Dusk itself fits Nesta very perfectly in a way. Dusk is a point between light and darkness and Nesta’s entire arc has been about existing between those two extremes which are death/life, destruction/creation, Made/human, darkness/light. Her silver fire is even repeatedly described as something that is cold but still burns.

I am not claiming that Nesta will be High Lady of Dusk Court. We will see what role she will play there. But if SJM is setting up someone to rediscover or rebuild the lost Dusk Court, Nesta has arguably received the most direct setup for it so far. Don’t forget now she has whole Valkyrie army with her.

And honestly, Bryce handing Nesta the sword and basically saying go find out why you are connected to this, is pretty big hint for me.

***Spoiler for Acosf and CC3***

I know it’s been discussed many times, but with new books coming, here we go again. I actually think Nesta is connected to Dusk Court and it makes way more sense than people give it credit for.

The biggest reason for me to believe it to be true is that the whole Acosf basically puts Nesta at the centre of the lost court mystery. Rhys says that the Prison island may have been an 8th court and when Nesta reaches for the harp, she sees an eighth pointed star beneath it. She even says that the magic there feels different from NC magic.

And I think till now most of the fandom already agrees that Prison is the 8th court and that is Dusk obviously. The more important question is who it belongs to? I personally believe it to be Nesta.

And here’s why…A very obvious reason is Nesta has the eight pointed star tattoo. Nesta already has an unusual connection to the Cauldron and the trove. Nesta is literally the person who can interact with the objects tied to the history of that place. The trove also repeatedly calls to her because she was Made from the Cauldron. And i do think she has some special connection to Mother herself. Many times Eris also pointed out to Nesta that she is completely wasted at NC.

And CC3 makes the connection even harder to ignore. Bryce literally gives Nesta Gwydion and tells her to figure out why she has the eight pointed star on her back. That feels like very intentionally done by SJM for next book’s plot.

Plus, Dusk itself fits Nesta very perfectly in a way. Dusk is a point between light and darkness and Nesta’s entire arc has been about existing between those two extremes which are death/life, destruction/creation, Made/human, darkness/light. Her silver fire is even repeatedly described as something that is cold but still burns.

I am not saying that Nesta will be High Lady of Dusk Court. But if SJM is setting up someone to rediscover or rebuild the lost Dusk Court, Nesta has arguably received the most direct setup for it so far. Don’t forget now she has whole Valkyrie army behind her.

And honestly, Bryce handing Nesta the sword and basically saying go find out why you are connected to this is pretty big hint for me.

1. Tamlin locked Feyre in the SC because he believed she was traumatized, vulnerable, and would get herself killed. The IC later decided Nesta couldn’t continue living as she was, packed up her belongings, sent her to the HoW and restricted her freedom because they believed they were protecting her.

Why is one considered controlling and abusive while the other is considered necessary intervention?

2. Tamlin’s justification for controlling Feyre was essentially that he knew what was best for her and was trying to protect her. Rhysand also makes decisions for Feyre because he believes he is protecting her, most notably when he keeps the danger surrounding her pregnancy from her.

If “I was only trying to protect you” doesn’t excuse Tamlin because Feyre deserved the right to make informed choices about her own life, why doesn’t the same principle apply to Rhys?

3. Feyre spends ACOMAF learning that she has the right to make her own choices after being controlled by Tamlin. Yet in ACOSF, the IC makes major decisions about Nesta’s life without giving her the same level of choice.

Why is autonomy something Feyre is entitled to but something Nesta can lose when the people around her decide she is making bad choices?

4. Nesta is repeatedly criticized for being cruel because she is traumatized, with the argument that trauma can explain someone’s behavior but doesn’t excuse hurting other people.

If that’s the standard, should it not apply equally to Rhys, Feyre, Cassian, Mor and Amren when their trauma contributes to their behavior?

And if trauma doesn’t excuse Nesta’s behavior, why should it excuse anyone else’s?

5. Nesta is called cruel for deliberately saying things she knows will hurt people. Rhysand also deliberately uses people’s vulnerabilities against them when he’s angry or trying to intimidate them.

Why is Nesta’s cruelty treated as evidence of who she fundamentally is, while Rhys’s cruelty is usually explained as part of his trauma, personality or role as High Lord?

6. Cassian is sent to deal with Nesta and repeatedly pushes her physically and emotionally because he believes she needs to be forced to confront her problems. The hike is even treated as a punishment.

If forcing someone to suffer because you believe it will ultimately help them is unacceptable when Tamlin does it, why is it acceptable when Cassian believes he’s doing it for Nesta’s own good?

7. Amren spends much of ACOSF criticizing and provoking Nesta and their relationship eventually deteriorates badly. Nesta responds with hostility of her own.

Why is Nesta’s hostility toward Amren treated as evidence of her toxic personality, while Amren’s deliberate cruelty toward Nesta is so often defended as tough love?

8. Lucien gets criticized for not doing enough for Feyre while she was suffering in the SC, despite his own complicated position and history with Tamlin.

If knowing someone is suffering makes you responsible for intervening, what standard are we applying to everyone else who knew someone was struggling but didn’t intervene?

9. Feyre deliberately infiltrates the SC, manipulates Tamlin and helps destabilize the court because she believes he betrayed her.

If retaliation is understandable when Feyre does it because she’s hurt and believes she’s protecting herself, why is retaliation from other traumatized characters so often treated as proof that they’re simply cruel or bad people?

10. Rhysand threatens people, manipulates situations and uses fear when he believes someone poses a threat to Feyre. Nesta can also use deliberately intimidating or cruel words when she’s angry.

Why does “I’m protecting the people I love” make threatening or intimidating behavior more acceptable for one character but not another?

11. The narrative repeatedly tells us that Feyre is entitled to make her own decisions even when those decisions are reckless and potentially dangerous.

Why is recklessness treated as part of Feyre’s right to choose but when Nesta makes destructive choices, the solution becomes taking away her ability to make those choices?

And finally, the question I’m actually trying to get at:

If we removed the character names from these situations and only described what happened, would we judge the actions the same way?

Would “a powerful person restricts someone’s freedom because they believe it’s for their own protection” still be acceptable if we didn’t know whether it was Tamlin, Rhys, Cassian or the IC?

Would “a traumatized person lashes out and hurts people” still be unforgivable if we didn’t know whether it was Nesta, Rhys, Feyre or someone else?

Once, I have made a comment about the text below, so I thought I would make a post about it.

In, Acosf, if we imagine Feyre in Nesta’s place and Tamlin in Cassian’s place, we’d realize that Cassian did things to Nesta that the fandom would never have forgiven if Tamlin had done them to Feyre. Yet, the fandom praises one while vilifying the other.

Imagine a parallel world where, after UTM, an intervention is held to help Feyre with her mental health. Tamlin, Lucien, Ianthe, and the others decide that Feyre must never leave the manor, should spend her days training and helping with household work, and is excluded from all of their dinners and social gatherings. They continue enjoying their lives while she remains completely isolated.

Whenever Feyre joins one of their meetings, they make sure she feels like an outsider. They constantly remind her that she is dangerous because of her powers, treat her as if she is a monster, and repeatedly threaten to kill her if she becomes a threat.

Then, after an argument between Feyre and Ianthe, Tamlin punishes Feyre by forcing her on a dangerous 5 day hike. Throughout those 5 days, he ignores her suicidal thoughts and offers no comfort, warmth, affection, or reassurance. When she finally reaches her breaking point, the conflict is simply brushed aside with sex instead of genuine communication or emotional support.
How would the fandom react then?

Or consider the Blood Rite. If Feyre had been kidnapped and thrown into it, and Tamlin had done nothing to rescue her, would the fandom still defend him?

Likewise, if every member of the Spring Court had treated Feyre the way Rhysand, Mor, and Amren treated Nesta, there would have been widespread outrage.

And what if Tamlin never actually told Feyre he loved her, but instead simply reconciled with her at the end of Book 2 through physical intimacy, just as Cassian and Nesta often did? Would the fandom still see that relationship as healthy?

There are many examples like these. If the same actions were taken by Tamlin toward Feyre instead of by Cassian toward Nesta, I believe the fandom’s reaction would be completely different. That’s what makes the double standard so striking.

I have been thinking about their whole history and honestly…..what exactly did Jurian do to make them hate him so much?

According to books, Jurian and Miryam were together during human-fae war. Jurian was fighting for human freedom and was extremely focused on the war. That led to Miryam leaving him and falling in love with Drakon.

Then there’s a whole Clythia thing. Jurian got close to her to obtain crucial information for the war and then killed her. Obviously that was brutal. I am in no way siding with Jurian on this.

But this is where I get confused.

Miryam and Drakon holds kind of an enormous resentment towards him. And when they do meet each other in the recent war, Jurian isn’t trying to kill them but wants their forgiveness.

And what exactly does he need forgiveness for from Miryam?

-being obsessed with the war?
-not giving her enough attention?
-the whole Clythia thing?
-becoming consumed by what he thought he needs to do to free their people?

Because from Jurian’s pov, he says that whatever he did during the war was for Miryam, himself and humans. I think he genuinely believed that he was sacrificing everything for their freedom.

And then there’s another part that bothers me. Miryam left Jurain for Drakon while Jurian was still fighting the war. I am not saying that she was not allowed to fall in love with someone else, obviously she was. But the narration frames Jurian as the one who committed this great betrayal, when the actual details are very vague.

Then centuries later, Miryam and Drakon still have enough resentment towards Jurian to fight with him in another war. So what am i missing? Was there something more happened among them that we as readers are still unaware of? Was the real issue his treatment of Clythia and the fact that Miryam and Drakon viewed him as becoming a monster?

Because i feel that there is this massive missing chunk of their backstory. And i believe that we have very little detail of their complicated history.

And honestly, i would LOVE a novella about the original war from Jurian, Miryam and Drakon’s pov because this version we get is heavily filtered through people who already have opinions of Jurian.

What do you guys think? What did Jurian actually do to make Miryam and Drakon hate him so much?

Like the title says, I know this is probably a small detail compared to everything else in ACOSF, but I genuinely cannot get over the fact that Feyre decorated the River House with paintings of everybody and didn’t put a single painting of Nesta up.

And yes, she had a painting of their father.

And honestly, Nesta deserved a damn painting. 😭

Am I the only one who found this detail really sad? 🤔

[ Edit to add contextual evidence that it did impact Nesta:

“During that first tour, Nesta had noted the lack of herself here. The lack of their mother.
She said nothing, of course, but it was a “pointed absence.”

It was enough to now set her teeth on edge, to make her grab the invisible, internal leash that kept the horrible power within her at bay and pull tight, as Cassian slipped into the study and said to whoever awaited them,
"She's here."”

]

Can someone explain this to me because I genuinely don’t get it. And i keep getting these comments under my post.

People will come into a rant post, disagree with everything you said, argue with you in the comments, and then the moment you actually defend your point or respond with sarcasm, suddenly you’re the aggressive one. 😭

“Why are you so angry?”
“Why are you being so sarcastic and snarky?”
“Why do you keep reading the books if you hate these characters?”
“Maybe you should put the book down.”

Dudeee… YOU CAME TO THE RANT SUB. 😭 What exactly were you expecting? A polite book club discussion where everyone holds hands and agrees to disagree?

If I make a post criticizing Feyre, Rhys, the IC, or defending Tamlin or Nesta, I’m obviously going to have an opinion about it. If someone comments disagreeing with me, I have every right to respond and defend my argument. That’s literally how a discussion works.

And let’s be honest, the “why do you keep reading?” argument is ridiculous. People can love a series and still dislike certain characters. Some of us actually enjoy analyzing characters, questioning the narrative, and pointing out inconsistencies and double standards.

I especially don’t understand why defending Tamlin or Nesta seems to trigger this reaction so badly. People can write entire essays about how horrible he is, but when someone comes along and says, “Actually, I don’t agree, and here’s why,” suddenly we’re apparently “obsessed,” “unhinged,” or “angry” or having a meltdown”.

Also, if you come into someone else’s rant post, challenge everything they say, and then get offended when they match your energy… maybe the issue isn’t their tone. 😂

You don’t have to agree with me. You don’t even have to like Tamlin or Nesta. But you don’t get to dictate how I respond just because you don’t like the answer you’re getting.

If you don’t want people ranting, defending their characters, being sarcastic, or pushing back on your arguments… what exactly are you doing in a rant sub? 😭

Also, I welcome all kinds of criticism in this post. I am ready to hear both sides and for downvotes. So go ahead 😆

Can someone explain this to me because I genuinely don’t get it.

People will come into a rant post, disagree with everything you said, argue with you in the comments, and then the moment you actually defend your point or respond with sarcasm, suddenly you’re the aggressive one. 😭

“Why are you so angry?”
“Why are you being so sarcastic and snarky?”
“Why do you keep reading the books if you hate these characters?”
“Maybe you should put the book down.”

Girl… YOU CAME TO THE RANT SUB. 😭 What exactly were you expecting? A polite book club discussion where everyone holds hands and agrees to disagree?

If I make a post criticizing Feyre, Rhys, the IC, or defending Tamlin, I’m obviously going to have an opinion about it. If someone comments disagreeing with me, I have every right to respond and defend my argument. That’s literally how a discussion works.

And let’s be honest, the “why do you keep reading?” argument is ridiculous. People can love a series and still dislike certain characters. Some of us actually enjoy analyzing characters, questioning the narrative, and pointing out inconsistencies and double standards.

I especially don’t understand why defending Tamlin seems to trigger this reaction so badly. People can write entire essays about how horrible he is, but when someone comes along and says, “Actually, I don’t agree, and here’s why,” suddenly we’re apparently “obsessed,” “unhinged,” or “angry.”

Also, if you come into someone else’s rant post, challenge everything they say, and then get offended when they match your energy… maybe the issue isn’t their tone. 😂

You don’t have to agree with me. You don’t even have to like Tamlin. But you don’t get to dictate how I respond just because you don’t like the answer you’re getting.

If you don’t want people ranting, defending their characters, being sarcastic, or pushing back on your arguments… what exactly are you doing in a rant sub? 😭

Apologies if this post is not suited for here 🫶

I keep seeing people say the Archeron dresser has always been canonically Elain → Nesta → Feyre, but when I went back and checked the actual wording, that’s not quite what ACOTAR says.

In ACOTAR, Chapter 2, Feyre describes the paintings as:

Elain → flowers
Nesta → flames
Feyre → stars

But she never says those are the top, middle and bottom drawers. She’s simply listing what she painted on each sister’s drawer.

ACOMAF Chapter 49 does the exact same thing. Feyre explains that the old black dresser had one drawer for each sister and again describes them as Elain → flowers, Nesta → flames, Feyre → night sky, but still gives no physical order.

Then we get to ACOSF Chapter 55, and this is where it gets interesting.

Cassian is actually touching the dresser and SJM explicitly establishes the physical order:

Top: Feyre’s stars
Middle: Elain’s flowers
Bottom: Nesta’s flames

Cassian’s fingers move to the second drawer and identify Elain’s flowers, then “drifted lower” to Nesta’s flames.

So the actual physical order established in canon is Feyre → Elain → Nesta.

Which makes me wonder: was the Elain → Nesta → Feyre order in ACOTAR simply the order Feyre happened to mention them in, or did SJM originally imagine the dresser that way and later change it?

Because there’s another interesting wrinkle: in ACOFAS, Elain’s birthday cake is decorated flowers → flames → stars, which is the same order Feyre uses when describing the sisters in the earlier books. But that’s obviously a cake, not the dresser.

I don’t think we can honestly call this a confirmed plot hole because ACOTAR never explicitly says Elain was on the top drawer and Feyre was on the bottom.

But I also don’t think we should pretend there isn’t an odd continuity issue here. SJM went from repeatedly describing the designs as Elain → Nesta → Feyre to later physically establishing the dresser as Feyre → Elain → Nesta.

And considering how much symbolic meaning SJM eventually attached to these paintings, I’m curious what everyone thinks.

Was the earlier order just narrative/listing order, an accidental continuity change, or was SJM intentionally clarifying something with the ACOSF arrangement?

I keep seeing people say the Archeron dresser has always been canonically Elain → Nesta → Feyre, but when I went back and checked the actual wording, that's not quite what ACOTAR says.

In ACOTAR, Chapter 2, Feyre describes the paintings as:

Elain → flowers
Nesta → flames
Feyre → stars

But she never says those are the top, middle and bottom drawers. She's simply listing what she painted on each sister's drawer.

ACOMAF Chapter 49 does the exact same thing. Feyre explains that the old black dresser had one drawer for each sister and again describes them as Elain → flowers, Nesta → flames, Feyre → night sky, but still gives no physical order.

Then we get to ACOSF Chapter 55, and this is where it gets interesting.

Cassian is actually touching the dresser and SJM explicitly establishes the physical order:

Top: Feyre's stars
Middle: Elain's flowers
Bottom: Nesta's flames

Cassian's fingers move to the second drawer and identify Elain's flowers, then “drifted lower” to Nesta's flames.

So the actual physical order established in canon is Feyre → Elain → Nesta.

Which makes me wonder: was the Elain → Nesta → Feyre order in ACOTAR simply the order Feyre happened to mention them in, or did SJM originally imagine the dresser that way and later change it?

Because there's another interesting wrinkle: in ACOFAS, Elain's birthday cake is decorated flowers → flames → stars, which is the same order Feyre uses when describing the sisters in the earlier books. But that's obviously a cake, not the dresser.

I don't think we can honestly call this a confirmed plot hole because ACOTAR never explicitly says Elain was on the top drawer and Feyre was on the bottom.

But I also don't think we should pretend there isn't an odd continuity issue here. SJM went from repeatedly describing the designs as Elain → Nesta → Feyre to later physically establishing the dresser as Feyre → Elain → Nesta.

And considering how much symbolic meaning SJM eventually attached to these paintings, I'm curious what everyone thinks.

Was the earlier order just narrative or listing order, an accidental continuity change, or was SJM intentionally clarifying something with the ACOSF arrangement?

At the end of ACOTAR, Feyre literally dies for Tamlin. Her answer to Amarantha’s riddle is literally “Love.” And she is thinking specifically of her love for Tamlin. So it became clear that Feyre was still in love with Tamlin. And that their relationship is real.

This is where the argument actually begins. Feyre and Rhys had already developed a very unusual emotional connection through the bargain. Then the whole thing started with Feyre being taken to NC.

Feyre’s actions after leaving the Spring Court are a big reason I consider what happened with Rhys is emotional cheating. She left the Spring Court. Tamlin and the others believed that she had been taken against her will. So Tamlin was continuously searching for her, as Lucien tells her. Meanwhile, Feyre was in the Night Court growing emotionally and romantically closer to Rhys. And this wasn’t something that started after she officially ended things with Tamlin. Their emotional connection had already been developing before the breakup “note”. Then Feyre finally sent a note ending the relationship, even though Tamlin didn’t know she could read or write, so from his perspective, there was no reason to assume the note had actually been written by her. That’s what makes the situation uncomfortable to me, while Tamlin believed Feyre had been kidnapped and was still looking for her, Feyre was falling in love with another man and building a relationship with him.

Before anyone jumps in with “Tamlin was abusive” or “Rhys was her mate,” I’m not arguing that Tamlin was a good boyfriend or that Feyre should have stayed with him. I’m arguing something much different.

At the end of ACOTAR, Feyre literally dies for Tamlin. Her answer to Amarantha’s riddle is literally “Love.” And she is thinking specifically of her love for Tamlin. So let’s not rewrite Book 1 as if Feyre had already stopped loving Tamlin and was secretly waiting for Rhys. She wasn’t.

This is where the argument actually begins. Feyre and Rhys had already developed a very unusual emotional connection through the bargain. Then the whole thing started with Feyre being taken to NC.

Feyre’s actions after leaving the Spring Court are a big reason I consider what happened with Rhys is emotional cheating. She left the Spring Court. Tamlin and the others believed that she had been taken against her will. So Tamlin was continuously searching for her, as Lucien tells her. Meanwhile, Feyre was in the Night Court growing emotionally and romantically closer to Rhys. And this wasn’t something that started after she officially ended things with Tamlin. Their emotional connection had already been developing before the breakup “note”. Then Feyre finally sent a note ending the relationship, even though Tamlin didn’t know she could read or write, so from his perspective, there was no reason to assume the note had actually been written by her. That’s what makes the situation uncomfortable to me, while Tamlin believed Feyre had been kidnapped and was still looking for her, Feyre was falling in love with another man and building a relationship with him. You can absolutely believe Tamlin was a terrible partner and that Feyre had every right to leave him. But that doesn’t erase the timeline or make the emotional overlap disappear.

I keep seeing posts and comments saying that Tamlin and Lucian were responsible for Nesta and Elain being thrown into Cauldron and turning fae.

But the text simply doesn’t support that. Here are my points that show why:

1. Tamlin didn’t order Nesta and Elain to be taken.

In the book, it was clearly mentioned that Tamlin neither ordered nor it was part of his bargain with King of Hybern to kidnap Nesta and Elain. Also, Tamlin and Lucian didn’t know that they had been taken. In fact, Tamlin was quite surprised when Nesta and Elain were brought to the throne room and literally begged Hybern to stop it. This clearly gave the idea that he didn’t know.

2. It was “Ianth” who struck bargain with King of Hybern.

Feyre told every detail about her sisters to Ianth. Then Ianth was the one who struck a deal with King of Hybern behind Tamlin and Lucian’s back. She was the one who gave crucial information and location of Feyre’s sisters to the king. She helped facilitate what happened to them. Point to be noted, All behind Tamin’s back.

3. Lucian wasn’t responsible either.

It’s even harder to believe that Lucian was in any way responsible for any of this. Like Tamlin, he didn’t order their abduction neither did he know about the whole Cauldron situation. He had basically no knowledge of the plan.

4. Rhys and Feyre exposed her sisters to the human Queens.

It was Rhys and Feyre who brought the whole war efforts to Nesta and Elain’s home by asking them to host human queens. Because those Queens were the ones who betrayed NC and gave crucial details to King of Hybern which eventually led to kidnapping of Nesta and Elain.

After hosting Queens, Rhys and Feyre were the ones who took responsibility to save guard them, which they obvious failed.

Although, The person who actually kidnapped them, brought them to Cauldron and turned them to fae was “King of Hybern”. Not Tamlin. Not Lucian.

If anybody has anymore evidences then i would like to know in the comments.

I keep seeing posts and comments saying that Tamlin and Lucian were responsible for Nesta and Elain being thrown into Cauldron and turning fae.

But the text simply doesn’t support that. Here are my points that show why:

1. Tamlin didn’t order Nesta and Elain to be taken.

In the book, it was clearly mentioned that Tamlin neither ordered nor it was part of his bargain with King of Hybern to kidnap Nesta and Elain. Also, Tamlin and Lucian didn’t know that they had been taken. In fact, Tamlin was quite surprised when Nesta and Elain were brought to the throne room and literally begged Hybern to stop it. This clearly gave the idea that he didn’t know.

2. It was “Ianth” who struck bargain with King of Hybern.

Feyre told every detail about her sisters to Ianth. Then Ianth was the one who struck a deal with King of Hybern behind Tamlin and Lucian’s back. She was the one who gave crucial information and location of Feyre’s sisters to the king. She helped facilitate what happened to them. Point to be noted, All behind Tamin’s back.

3. Lucian wasn’t responsible either:

It’s even harder to believe that Lucian was in any way responsible for any of this. Like Tamlin, he didn’t order their abduction neither did he know about the whole Cauldron situation. He had basically no knowledge of the plan.

4. Rhys and Feyre exposed her sisters to the human Queens.

It was Rhys and Feyre who brought the whole war efforts to Nesta and Elain’s home by asking them to host human queens. Because those Queens were the ones who betrayed NC and gave crucial details to King of Hybern which eventually led to kidnapping of Nesta and Elain.

After hosting Queens, Rhys and Feyre were the ones who took responsibility to save guard them, which they obvious failed.

Although, The person who actually kidnapped them, brought them to Cauldron and turned them to fae was “King of Hybern”. Not Tamlin. Not Lucian.

If anybody has anymore evidences then i would like to know in the comments.

I am going to start right ahead with UTM. Feyre was useful to him because she could help break the curse and end Amarantha’s reign. So, he took advantage of her. Then, when he took her to the Night Court, he desperately wanted her to join the war efforts because of her connection to the Cauldron was useful to him. He already knew a lot of the information, but he wanted to use Feyre to confirm it all.

From day one in the Night Court, Feyre was sent to interact with the Bone Carver and retrieve information. Then she had to retrieve Rhys’s mother’s ring from the Weaver, search for half of the Book, and eventually wield the Book and the Cauldron. So, she was being used for Rhys’s agenda from day one.

Also, let’s not forget that Rhys knew Feyre possessed all the High Lords powers and would eventually become extremely powerful. He continuously used Feyre to further his own agendas, and he didn’t stop with Feyre. He used her sisters as well for his own purposes.

If we remove the idea of genuine love from the equation and look at his actions purely from a strategic perspective, a lot of his decisions toward Feyre and her sisters can be viewed as calculated rather than purely selfless.

I don’t know if i can post this here. But here you go!!

I know Rhys fans will probably say I’m “reaching,” but I’m genuinely curious how people read the series and miss how often Feyre is useful to Rhys.

Under the Mountain is the first example.

Rhys knew Feyre was the human girl who could potentially break Amarantha’s curse. He deliberately cultivated a connection with her, made the bargain that ensured he could access her later, and kept himself involved in her situation. Feyre wasn’t simply some random person he happened to help. She was potentially the key to ending Amarantha’s reign and freeing the Night Court. He had a vested interest in keeping her alive and getting her to the point where she could break the curse.

Then ACOMAF happens, and the pattern becomes even clearer.

The moment Feyre comes to the Night Court, Rhys is desperate to have her involved in the coming war. He knows she’s been Made and that she possesses the powers of multiple High Lords. He also knows there is something unusual about her connection to the Cauldron. That She can enter minds and has abilities that could potentially change the balance of power in Prythian. And Rhys absolutely understands the political value of that.

And instead of simply giving her information and letting her decide what role she wants to play, he repeatedly puts her to work gathering information that his court needs.

Even the Bone Carver scene makes this pretty blatant. When Feyre is revealed to be his “salvation,” Rhys’s reaction isn’t simply romantic. Feyre is literally connected to the solution to an enormous political and existential threat.

Then look at the High Lady situation. Rhys gives Feyre the title of High Lady, something unprecedented, and it’s framed as him finally recognizing her equality. But politically? It also makes Feyre part of the Night Court’s ruling structure and gives Rhys an extraordinarily powerful partner who is personally devoted to him.

Look at Feyre’s actual “recovery” at the Night Court:
• She goes to the Bone Carver and retrieves information.
• She is sent after Rhys’s mother’s ring from the Weaver.
• She helps search for the missing half of the Book of Breathings.
• She eventually becomes involved in wielding the Book and interacting with the Cauldron.
• Her unique powers and Cauldron connection become increasingly important to Rhys’s plans for the war.

So Feyre arrives at the Night Court barely functioning after UTM, and almost immediately she’s being inserted into dangerous missions that conveniently happen to advance Rhys’s objectives.

And what’s especially interesting is that Rhys often already knows far more than he tells Feyre.

He knows about the Cauldron. He knows about the war. He knows what the King of Hybern is trying to accomplish. He understands how significant Feyre’s powers could become.

Yet Feyre is repeatedly put in the position of discovering, confirming or retrieving information that Rhys needs.

That’s not just “protecting Feyre.”

That’s using Feyre as a resource.

And Feyre’s sisters aren’t exempt either.

Nesta and Elain are dragged into the Cauldron situation, and once they’re Made, Rhys’s side immediately recognizes that their abilities and circumstances could be useful in the war. Nesta’s connection to the Cauldron becomes particularly important, and Rhys is perfectly willing to involve her when her abilities can help his side.

The bigger picture is what bothers me.

Feyre wasn’t just Rhys’s mate or the woman he happened to fall in love with. From the beginning, she was:

the human who could break Amarantha’s curse → the Made female with multiple High Lord powers → a potential weapon in the war → someone who could retrieve information and magical objects → someone capable of interacting with the Cauldron → eventually his political partner and High Lady.

And Rhys knew much of this before Feyre understood the significance herself.

So when people say, “Rhys would never use Feyre,” I genuinely don’t understand that interpretation.

He absolutely used her.

He used her abilities.
He used her access.
He used her connection to the Cauldron.
He used her willingness to help.
And he repeatedly placed her in situations that served his political and military objectives.

He repeatedly makes decisions for her while believing he knows what’s best. The pregnancy is the clearest later example. He hides the fatal risks from Feyre while telling everyone around her, including Nesta, to keep the information from her. His justification is that he is protecting her.

But that’s exactly the point.

Rhys’s version of love often comes with **control, calculation and deciding what information Feyre is allowed to have.**

If anything, that’s what makes the relationship so interesting.

Rhys is a political strategist who has spent centuries manipulating people, information and circumstances to protect his court. Why would Feyre magically become the one person around whom he stops being strategic?

If anything, Feyre is the person who gives him the most reason to be strategic.