Unsure if this is the right place to ask, but I've been wanting to read her books for a while.

Do you think I should start with Throne of Glass or a Court of thorns and roses?

I know absolutely NOTHING about these books besides the fact ACOTAR is an unfinished series | tink?
Some help/ recommendations would be appreciated!

Rereading, wondering who or what Prince Pelias could be... and then it hit me.

“Prince Pelias” … “Prince Pelias” … “Prince.”

Who else gets called “Prince”…?

Preface:

This post was too big to post in one go... so I have broken it into two parts / two posts!

Edit: Nope, its three parts / three posts! oops!

I’m sorry if this has been spoken about already or theorized before! I haven’t seen much talk about just Pelias and his backstory, so I thought I’d take a crack at it!
If anyone had already said this please let me know!

(Although u/Soft_Bookworm made an excellent post which did include pelias! I’ll link it where I also compare Pelias to Hunt!)

The only other big thing I’ve seen about Pelias is his timeline issues… (Shout out to u/bellire who left an amazing comment on this awesome post by u/Middle-Injury-2610)

Anyways, fair warning: this is a long, long, long post! (a two-parter!)

*With that being said, if you want to skip all my ramblings and just get to the meat of the argument, then you can scroll down to the bottom where I made an additional comment and read my conclusions! They basically summarize most of my points / theory!

But, if you want to see all of the quotes / evidence for each point, then can read all of the exhibits listed!

Alright! Let’s get into the theory!

Theory:

Prince Pelias is a Prince of Hel.

While I don’t know if I think he’s actually one of the 7 main Princes, I do believe that he is a “Son of Hel.” Just like Hunt.

Let’s discuss:

Hunt and the Title of Prince:

Generally, in most monarchies, when a Prince has a son, that son inherits the title of “Prince" from his father.

So, technically, since Hunt —Orion Athalar— is confirmed a “Son of Hel.” He is therefore a “Prince of Hel,” since two of his fathers are Princes themselves. Here are the quotes to back this up:

>“‘Welcome, son,’ said the Prince of the Pit.” CC3 page 528.

>“…Apollion answered, ‘Because the Princes of Hel cannot be contained by the black crowns… it should not be able to hold you.’” CC3 page 532.

Apollion says that the halo can’t contain a Prince of Hel, and then says that Hunt should be able to take it off of himself… so doesn’t this imply that Hunt is a Prince of Hel? At least, Apollion, one of his fathers, seems to think he is!

And then we have this:

>“Thanatos scoffed, ‘You are no son of his.’ He yanked off his war helmet, cradling it under his arm. ‘If anything, you are mine.’” CC3 page 530

So, technically, Hunt is a Prince of Hel 2x, because both Thanatos and Apollion have the title and can thus pass on the title to their offspring.

And this is the reasoning that they give for making hunt:

>“‘I’m sorry,’ Hunt interrupted l, ‘but are you implying that I was made by you two assholes? As some sort of pet?’ He pointed to Thanatos, then to Apollion. ‘Not a pet,’ Apollion said darkly. ‘A weapon.’ He nodded to Bryce. ‘For her, whenever she might come along.’” CC3 page 548.

So, Hunt is the son of Thanatos, Prince of Souls, who used the essence of Apollion, Prince of the Pit, to create him. For all intents and purposes, I am absolute convinced that Hunt qualifies as a Prince of Hel!

Now, even though none of the Princes of Hel directly call him a “Prince.” They do call him a son. And again, generally, sons of princes inherit that title too.

However, Hunt has been called a Prince before… when he and Bryce get married in CC2, to spite the Autumn king, Hunt inherits the title of “Prince of the Fae” because he married a Princess of the Fae… (gee, that sounds familiar…)

>“‘Because you are mated. And now your father has made you a princess. Which makes him…’ ‘Oh gods,’ Bryce said, choking. ‘Hunt is a f*cking prince.’ She laughed bitterly.” CC2 page 597

>“Ruhn said, ‘You know who I was talking to before I got your call? My father.’ Bryce went still, and Hunt knew it was bad. Ruhn grinned at him. ‘Your father in-law.’ ‘Excused me?’ Ruhn didn’t stop grinning. ‘He told me the wonderful news.’ He winked at Bryce. ‘You must be so happy.’ Bryce groaned and turned to Hunt. ‘It’s not official—‘ ‘Oh, it’s official,’ Ruhn said… ‘She’s been bandying about the royal name, apparently. Which means she’s accepted her position as princess. And as you’re her mate, that makes you son-in-law to the Autumn King. And my brother.’ Hunt gaped at him.” CC2 page 609

>“Hunt waited until he and Bryce had entered the apartment, the door firmly shut behind them, before he said, ‘I’m a prince now?’ Bryce slumped onto the couch. ‘Welcome to the club.’ ‘Your father really did this?’ She nodded glumly.” CC2 page 621

>“‘And we extend our well wishes to you, too.’ Celestina said. ‘Thank you,’ Bryce said, smiling widely. ‘Prince Hunt and I plan to be quite happy.’ … ‘Prince?’ Celestina asked. Bryce looped her arm through Hunt’s, pressing close. ‘Hunt and I are mates.’ A charming, brilliant smile. ‘That makes him my prince…’” CC2 page 632-633

And in CC3 Hunt introduces himself to the Ocean Queen as a Prince:

>“‘Prince Hunt Athalar Danaan, at your service.’” CC3 page 363.

So, either way you slice it, Hunt is a “Prince.” He is a Prince of Hel because he is the son of Princes of Hel and he is a Prince of the Fae because he married a Princess (now Queen) of the Fae.

Now let’s look at Prince Pelias:

Pelias and the Title of Prince:

We’ve known since CC1 that Pelias is a Prince.

Almost every time that he is mentioned, he is called “Prince Pelias.” Interestingly, when we are introduce to Helena, she is only called “princess” once (at least, I can only remember one time, and it was in book three.) otherwise, she’s just Helena...

>"'This is just a three-page account of Prince Pelias and his bride, Lady Helena. But I didn't realize that Pelias was actually high general for a Fae Queen named Theia when they entered this world during the Crossing- and Helena was her daughter. From what it sounds like, Queen Theia was also Starboard, and her daughter possessed the same power. Theia had a younger daughter with the same gift, but only Lady Helena gets mentioned." CC1 page 299 (So her mother is a Queen, but she is only a Lady? While Pelias is a Prince?)

“The First Starborn Prince” is what the Fae call Pelias, but… let’s look at what other beings call Pelias:

>“Starlight glinted among Ruhn’s shadows, shimmering down the length of his sword. Aidas’s eyes now flared with a strange sort of rage as he looked upon the Fae Prince. ‘I did. And I knew the sniveling prince whose light you bear.’” CC2 page 175

>“‘Pelias was no true prince,’ Aidas spat, fangs bared. ‘He was Theia’s high general and appointed himself prince after he forcibly wed Helena.’ CC2 page 175

>“‘Your celebrated Prince Pelias, the so-called first Starborn Prince, was an impostor. Theia’s other daughter got away— vanished into the night. I never learned of her fate. Pelias used the Starsword and the Horn to set himself up as a prince, and passed them onto his offspring, the children Helena bore him through rape.’” CC2 page 176

We are supposed to believe that this is Aidas in his cat form, but we later find out that this Rigelus who is pretending to be Aidas in cat form. (That’s not confusing at all!)

Now, Rigelus could be lying as Aidas… but, he says that Silene “vanished into the night.” Which is crazy considering that this is true figuratively and literally. She vanished from Midgard in the middle of the night when she portals to Prythian, but she also actually disappears into the Night Court… so Rigelus does seem to have some credibility here.

Rigelus (and, were led to believe, the Princes of Hel) consider Pelias’ title “First Starborn Prince of the Fae” to be false… which means Rigelus, an Asteri, does not consider Pelias to be a Prince of the Fae… and that makes since because Silene says:

>“‘Play the Horn and Harp,’ our mother ordered, pulling them out of that pocket of nothingness, ‘and get out of this world.’ It would be swift, a momentary opening, too fast for Rigelus to pounce on. We'd open it and be gone before he would even catch wind of what we'd done— and then we would seal the door between worlds forever. Theia pressed a kiss to each of their brows. She warned that Pelias was coming. For both of us. Rigelus had made him Prince of the Fae, and Pelias would use us to legitimize his reign. He meant to father children on us.” CC3 page 218

I’m sorry Silene, what did you say? “Rigelus had made him Prince of the Fae…” what does this even mean?

From what I understand, this means that Pelias is not a Prince of the Fae. Rigelus made him into one… I’m not exactly sure how he did that, but regardless, Pelias is not a Fae Prince… he only gets this title when he marries and SA’s Helena, a Fae Princess (where have I heard that before?)

So, now that we know that Pelias is not a true Prince of the Fae, this also calls into question if Pelias is even Starborn...

Pelias and the Title of Starborn:

CC1 constantly calls Pelias the “First Starborn Prince of the Fae.”
But since we know that part of this title is a lie, is any of it true?

u/Fluke1389 has a wonderful post where they question if Pelias is actually a Starborn, you can read it here.

And u/shelbythesnail raises a great question too, about how Pelias has Starborn power, which I’ll link here and address it down below!

They raise a great question: is Pelias actually a Starborn fae?

And you know what? I don’t think so. I don’t even think Pelias is a regular fae. I think he’s just like Hunt… a being created by the Princes of Hel.

This now brings us to daddy Thanatos…

Thanatos, Prince of Souls:

>“I can smell the starlight on you.” CC2 page 414

>“I am Prince of Death. Souls bow to me.” CC2 page 414

>“I grow tired of these questions. I shall feast.” CC2 page 416

>“The Prince of the Ravine said, I do not care for my brothers’ agenda. I do not heed their rules and restraints and illusions of civilization. I shall taste all of you like this—you and your masters— once the door between our worlds is again open. Staring with you, Starborn.” CC2 page 417

>“…Bryce said, not taking her attention off of the hounds. She nodded toward Thanatos. ‘He eats souls—‘“ CC3 page 531

>“‘I can smell it on your spirit. I am the Prince of Souls— such things are known to me. Your power has been touched by something new.’” CC3 page 531

Honestly, I think a title that better describes him is “creator of demons”… but anyway, Thanatos has an interesting ability to create beings. And not just low level grunts, but articulate and intelligent creatures with immense power.

>“‘My brother,’ Aidas said, nodding to Thanatos, ‘has long excelled at crafting things.’ ‘Funny.’ Bryce said, ‘I didn’t take you for a quilter.’ … ‘During the First Wars, as you call them, Thanatos helped Apollion breed new types of demons to fight on our side. The Kristallos, designed to hunt for the Horn— so we might find a way into Midgard unobstructed. The Shepherd. The Deathstalkers.’ A nod to Hunt… ‘They were but a few of my brother’s creations.’” CC3 page 548

I’m also going to assume that since Thanatos has this ~gift~ of making beings and the Princes of Hel admit to creating the Thunderbirds, Thanatos probably made them as well:

>“‘There were previous experiments,’ Apollion said … ‘The Thunderbirds.’ Bryce said, gaping. ‘You guys made them, too?’ ‘We did,’ Aidas said matter-of-factly, ‘and sent them through the cracks in the Northern Rift.’” CC3 pages 548-549

So let’s recap shall we, and list the things Thanatos has created:

1. The Kristallos.
2. The Shepherd.
3. The Deathstalker.
4. The Thunderbird.
5. The Umbra Mortis.
6. And just for fun... The Unnamed Daughter.

Now let’s evaluate these guys a bit, because they can be put into groups.

Group A: The Purebred Demons.
The Kristallos and the Deathstalker are all types/races of demon. They do not seem to be the name of one being, but rather a type of being. In CC1, there were several Kristallos demons summoned and in CC3, there are several Deathstalkers that Thanatos released into the Asteri's Palace.

>“Kristallos demons, death stalkers, hounds like the Shepherd, and worse… the pets of Thanatos all racing past the Asteri, and into the city itself.” CC3 page 746

Now, the Shepherd does seem to be “one of one” (haha)… and Thanatos laments the loss of the Shepherd, even going so far as to say that he’ll fight Bryce on a battlefield one day to take revenge (villain arc foreshadowing???). But I’d still put him in this group because he’s purely demon and there seem to be many other “hounds” based on this "Shepherd."

>“The dogs. Their milky eyes glowed from the gloom between the pillars. ‘They will not harm you,’ Aidas said, nodding toward the hounds that looked an awful lot like the Shepherd that Bryce and Hunt had fought in the Bone Quarter. ‘They are Thanatos’s companions.’” CC3 page 531

>“‘You slew one of my creations. My beloved pet, kept for so long on your side of the Crossing’ … ‘You mean the Reapers? Or the Shepherd?’ A shepherd of souls-for a prince who peddled them. ‘The Under-King said you abandoned it after the First Wars.’ ‘Abandoned, or intentionally planted?’” CC2 page 415
(This also raises some questions about the reapers, and this is a special tool that will help us later!)

>“Thanatos's eyes flared. ‘You cost me a key link to Midgard. The Shepherd reported faithfully to me on all it heard in the Bone Quarter. The souls of the dead talk freely of their world.’” CC2 page 415

>“‘I will give them [answers] to you only out of respect for a warrior capable of slaying one of my creations. Shall I meet you on the battlefield, however, I will take vengeance for the Shepherd's death.’”CC2 page 415

These quotes tell me a couple of things:

• One: Thanatos creates these beings for a specific purpose.
• Two: His creations usually obey him.

Here are the purposes of his creatures:

1. The Kristallos: To Hunt the Horn.
2. The Shepherd: To be a Spy (remember this!)
3. The Deathstalker: To be Assassins and Pets
4. The Thunderbird: To be a Weapon for Bryce (fail)
5. The Umbra Mortis: To be a Weapon for Bryce (success)
6. And just for fun… The Unnamed Daughter: ??? (Spy?)

The only beings that don’t seem to completely obey Thanatos are the ones that are created by “quilting” together difference races…

Meaning: all of the pure demons of Hel obey him like loyal dogs, (and they indeed seem to be part dog... Which raises an interesting question about Baxian… the “Helhound”…) and all of the creatures that are not just part of Hel, but other species, seem to rebel and have free will...
which brings us to our second group:

Group B: The Demon Mutts:
The Thunderbirds, Hunt, and probably Thanatos’s Daughter, are all half-breeds.

• The Thunderbirds = Humans + Hel
• Hunt = angle + Hel
• And since this Daughter is on Prythian, I’m assuming that she is High Fae or Fae + Hel .(though this is a complete guess)

>"She'd [Bryce] typed demon + Fae into the search bar. Bryce slide the laptop to Hunt." CC1 page 295. This is a direct quote by the way...

1- The Thunderbirds all die out. And Sofie didn’t even seem to know that she was originally created by Hel to be a weapon for the Starborn heir… so, clearly, they either didn’t take orders from Thanatos or were all killed before they could.

2- Hunt, at first, doesn’t like the idea that he’s a “son of Hel” and aggressively lashes out at the Princes. He clearly has some sort of free will and gets to choose if he wants to follow their orders / go along with their plans or not.

>“Acting on instinct, Hunt lunged, intending to shove the Prince of the Chasm away from his mate.” CC3 page 530.

>“But Aidas said to Hunt, little fangs glinting, ‘I thought we were friends, Orion.’ ‘It’s Hunt,’ he gritted out, lightning skittering over his teeth, zapping his tongue. One move and he’d fry the Prince. Or try to.” CC2 page 174 when Rigelus is in cat Aidas form (trying to sus out if they’re working with Hel yet.)

>“Horror cracked through him, as chilled as hoarfrost. He’d been created by the males to give and to suffer, and where the f*ck did that leave him? Who the f*ck did that make him?” CC3 page. 551

But, then he changes his tune about the Princes…

>“The princes looked like the worst of horrors, but Hunt knew their true nature now. They had come to help. And for a single heartbeat, pride at being a son of Hel threaded through him.” CC3 page 751.

I honestly think that the Princes of Hel let Hunt be taken as a slave for the Asteri so that he would hate the Asteri more than Hel and wouldn’t betray them.

Essentially, they know Hunt has free will, so they’re manipulating him, allowing him to be used as a slave, that way he will want to side with them… of his own free will (unlike someone else…) because Hunt knows that the princes made him as a weapon, a tool, to “give and to suffer” yet starts to come around to the idea of being their son... that does not bode well.

3- The Daughter in Prythian seems to have some free will as well if “Lord Thanatos is having trouble with his daughter” means anything!

Why does any of this matter?

Because u/NeonYellowShoes brings up an excellent question in this post: why did Thanatos not what to create Hunt? Why does he still think it’s a bad idea:

>“‘You are the son of my two brothers only in the vaguest sense,’ Aidas said. Something in Hunts chest eased—even as his stomach roiled. ‘Thanatos refused to help at first,’ Apollion added, glaring at his brother. ‘I did not approve of the plan,’ Thanatos snapped, gripping his helmet tight. ‘I still do not.’” CC3 page 548

(Also, shout out to u/Jarvis2419 who theorized that Bryaxis is Thanatos’ daughter… I’m like 100% sold on this haha!)

But anyways, why would Thanatos think it’s a bad idea to make Hunt???

My answer: because they already tried this before, with Pelias, and he, of his own free will, betrayed them.

This, finally, brings us to the theory:

Prince Pelias is a Prince of Hel.

So I’ll go ahead and add another name to the list of beings created by Thanatos:

1. The Kristallos.
2. The Shepherd.
3. The Deathstalker.
4. The Thunderbird.
5. The Umbra Mortis.
6. The Unnamed Daughter.
7. The Original Prythian Spy.

I believe that Prince Pelias was created by Thanatos to be the Original Spy in Prythian.

In one of my previous posts, I said that I think Hel is connected to Prythian via the Helscapes under the mountains, like Ramiel, that Theia and Fionn ruled over. I’ll link that post here.

Whether the Asteri or Theia herself made the connection to Hel under the mountains, I can’t really say -- evidence suggests that the Asteri probably did it, considering the Asteri made the Illyrians and they seem related to demons of Hel. Plus, the Asteri tried to invade Hel before. They know where it is / how to access it.

Anyways, even after Theia and Fionn kicked the Asteri out of Prythian, they ruled over a Helscape beneath Ramiel suggesting that whatever portal the Asteri opened down there… maybe it’s still open…

We know that the Princes of Hel banded together to kick the Asteri out, but they didn’t stop there. They chased them down. Searching through different worlds to find them.

>“‘How much do you know?’ Aidas asked her. ‘Not just about Athalar, but about the whole history of Midgard.’ ‘Rigelus has a little conquest room,’ Bryce said, the softness fading from her face as she crossed her arms. ‘He’s got a whole section about invading your planet. And I know Hel once had warring factions, but you shorted out your sh*t and marched as one to kick the Asteri out of Hel. A year later, you hunted them down across the stars and found them on Midgard. You fought them again, and it didn’t go well that time. You got jettisoned from Midgard and have been trying to creep back through the Northern Rift ever since.’” CC3 page 533

My hunch is that they sent spies to other worlds to try and find the Asteri. And what better world is there to search than Prythian! Where they already have an established connection AND it’s a world already known to have had Asteri.

So, I believe that Thanatos, Apollion, and Aidas created Pelias and sent him to Prythian to be a spy.

Remember, this is not completely out there, because Thanatos created the Shepherd to be his spy on Midgard…

So here are my pieces of evidence for this theory:

Exhibit A:

*This is, probably, my most vital piece of evidence:

>“Aidas was a Prince of Hel, Silene went on. Bryce's breath caught in her throat. Using rare summoning salts that facilitated communication between worlds, his spies in Midgard had kept him well informed since the Asteri had failed to conquer his planet. Aidas had been assigned to hunt for the Asteri ever since. So their evil might never triumph again. On his world, or any other.” CC3 page 214.

>“It was Pelias who told her [Theia] where to cast her intention. Using old, notated star maps from their former masters, he’d selected a world for them…. Pelias told her it was a world the Daglan had long covated but had not had the chance to conquer. An empty world, but one of plenty. She had no way of knowing that he’d spent our era of peace learning ancient summoning magic and searching the cosmos for whatever remained of the Daglan on other worlds. What he wanted from them, I can only guess—“ CC3 page 199-200

So, Silene says that Aidas had:

• One: spies tracking the Asteri on other worlds.
• Two: spies that use SUMMONING to contact him.

And at the same time, Silene says that:

• One: Pelias is searching for the Asteri on other worlds.
• Pelias knows SUMMONING magic
• Two: Pelias uses SUMMONING to contact Rigelus.

… but I’m sure it’s just a weird coincidence!!

Also, I just want to throw this out there… I’m pretty sure that Aidas was originally involved in the making of Pelias, or maybe his training, because I’m convinced that Pelias was Aidas’s spy. However, whether it be because of Aidas’s relationship with Theia, or some other reason (maybe the Prince of Hel don’t all have the same end goal…) Apollion and Thanatos leave Aidas completely out of the loop when they make Hunt in Pelias's image for Theia’s heir…

>“Hunt kept perfectly still as Aidas studied her [Bryce]. Then his eyes registered Hunt. He blinked—once. As if he had not really marked his presence until this moment. As if he hadn’t cared to notice, with Bryce before him. Hunt tucked away that fact, just as Aidas murmured, ‘Who are you.’ A command. … Hunt leveled a stare at the prince. Bryce threw Hunt a sidelong glare, the effect of which was negated by her chattering teeth. Aidas smiled, looking him over again. ‘A Fallen warrior with the power of…’ Aidas’s groomed brows lifted in surprise. His blue opal eyes narrowed to slits—the simmered like the hottest flame. ‘What are you doing with the black crown around your brow?’ Hunt didn’t dare let his surprise at the question show.” CC1 page 470

Here, Aidas is completely surprised by seeing Hunt. But what surprises him most is that Hunt has Apollion’s Helfire…. Aidas immediately clocks who his daddies are, what he is, and he’s surprised: Apollion and Thanatos did not include Aidas in the plan to make Hunt for Bryce…

Apollion tries to cover this up later, by telling Hunt that Aidas was only surprised to see him because he was wearing a halo and the princes of Hel can’t be bound by a halo:

>“Hunt turned to Aidas. ‘You seemed surprised to see one on me that first time we met. Why?’ But before Aidas could begin, Apollion answered, ‘Because the Princes of Hel cannot be contained by the black crowns….’” CC3 page 532

That’s very suspicious of you Apollion, not letting Aidas answer for himself… when he seemed genuinely surprised at Hunt's existence.

Again, it’s reads more to me that Aidas seemed surprised that Hunt had Apollion’s Helfire, not that he had the halo on the first time they met. And then Aidas tests Hunt, putting feelers out to see what he knows, by asking about the halo, but Hunt seems to have no clue what he’s talking about.

>“Aidas sucked in a breath, as if tasting the air on which Hunt’s words had been delivered to him.” CC1 page 471

This whole interaction alludes that Aidas was not originally involved in making Hunt, but immediately understand what Apollion and Thanatos have planned for him.

Its just extremely suspicious that Apollion tried to cover up the fact that Aidas was intentionally left out of the plan to create Hunt for Bryce… probably because of his connection to Theia, and who Pelias was to her.

Exhibit B:

This is a bit more of a stretch, but stay with me!

(Spoilers for TOG! Read at your own risk!)

We know that (spoilers for TOG) The Valg are afraid of Mala’s and Aelins fire magic. It’s one of the only things that can kill them.

>“All Valg have an aversion to fire. The King of Adarlan revealed that Erawan tried to wipe out the Galathynius line completely in hopes that Aelin would never be able to destroy them. Using her fire, Aelin successfully killed General Narrok and three other Valg princes.” TOG Wiki
(I couldn’t remember where the exact quote was in all of the TOG books, sorry!)

And we know that one of the only things that can kill the Princes of Hel is Dragon Fire.

>“But all plans vanished at the sight of the envelope on her desk. It contained an analysis of dragon fire, dating back five thousand years. It was in a language Bryce didn’t know, but a translation had been included. Jesiba had scribbled Good luck at the top. Well, now she knew why the Astronomer kept Ariadne in a ring. Not for light—but for protection. Among its many uses, the ancient scholar had written, dragon fire is one of the few substances proven to harm the Princes of Hel. It can burn even the Prince of the Pit’s dark hide. Yeah, Ariadne was valuable. And if Apollion was readying his armies… Bryce had no intention of letting the dragon return to the Astronomer’s clutches.” CC2 pages 556-557

So, you see where my heads at right? We all pretty much think that there’s a connection between the Valg and the Princes of Hel. And they’re both clearly afraid of fire, but not regular fire, but magic fire.

Now look at this:

>“Tall, beautiful beings entered. Even Bryce's rage and despair stalled. Fae from another world —but they looked so similar to the ones from this place. How was it possible? Another ancient conquest of the Asteri? Another place they'd colonized and tampered with, and eventually lost? They were Fae like us, but not. The ears, the grace, the strength were identical, but they were shape-shifters, all of them. Each capable of turning into an animal. And each, even in their humanoid body, equipped with elongated canine teeth. It was a puzzle— enough of one that my mother paused her warmongering. There were two types of Fae. From two seemingly unconnected and distant worlds. These new Fae bore elemental magic, strong enough to make Pelias wary of them. They were more aggressive than the Fae we knew-wilder. And they answered directly to Rigelus. It seemed, in fact, like they'd known Rigelus a long while.” CC3 page 208.

These are the Fae from Erilea. And, if I had to guess, I’d bet that there are some Firebringers here… but why is Pelias specifically afraid of the elemental magic they wield?

Why is he, a supposed regular fae from Prythian, afraid of water, earth, air, and fire magic? It makes it even more suspicious knowing what we know about Aelin’s and Erilea’s fire magic, and just how powerful it is…

So, why else would he be afraid of their specific elemental magic? Unless he’s afraid of their fire… because it can kill him… because he is a Prince of Hel / Valg.

Stay with me!

There seems to be a key difference between the Fire of the Autumn Fae and the Fire of Mala… perhaps this is due to Mala being a sun goddess? So only ~special~ Fire can kill the Vlag/POH.

Maybe regular Autumn Fae Fire isn’t strong enough? And this is why, even though they have fire wielders, they need Dragon Fire on Midgard!

It could also be because of the parasite.

>“The Asteri had infected the water we consumed with a parasite. They’d poisoned the lakes and streams and oceans. The parasite burrowed their way into our bodies, warping our magic.” CC3 page 215

Maybe it weakened the fire magic of the Autumn fae so much that it’s not even a threat anymore? And this is why Pelais isn’t afraid of Autumn fae, but his is afraid of Erilea Fae? (Does that make any sense?)

Or, the reason why Pelais is keeping the Autumn fire fae close to him is because they could kill him. So he’s keeping his friends close, and his enemies closer?
Or, maybe he wanted them around to use them against the other Princes of Hel if need be? Before the parasite completely drained their magic power, that is…

Either way, it’s suspicious to me that he was afraid of elemental fae from Erilea when we know those specific fae to have crazy powerful fire wielders among them.

Exhibit C:

This is, again, a reach, but I need to put this out there:

Pelias is Thurr.

We are first introduced to Thurr in the very first chapter of CC2:

>“‘That one reminds me of Athalar.’ Bryce arched a brow, grateful for the change of subject, and twisted toward where he’d [Randall] had pointed. On it, a powerful Fae male stood poised above an anvil, hammer raised skyward in one fist, lightning cracking down from the skies, filling the hammer, and flowing down toward the object of the hammer's intended blow: a sword. Its label read simply: Unknown sculptor. Palmira, circa 125 V.E…. What a few sweeps of her thumbs, the picture zoomed off into the ether, along with her note: Long-lost relative of yours?” CC2 page 26-27

We know that everyone thinks that Thurr looks like Hunt! Bryce even joked that the statue was a "long-lost relative" of Hunt's…

But… what if it’s not a joke?

What if Thurr, who uses Helfire and lightening, who is depicted as a fae male, and who looks like Hunt, is actually related to him?

What if Thurr is Pelias?

Think about it:

• Helfire / lightning only come from Apollion / Hel.
• Thanatos used Apollion’s essence to create Hunt.
• This gives Hunt Helfire and lightning.
• Thurr is shown being able to use Helfire.
• Thurr looks just like Hunt.
• Thurr is a fae male.

And:

• Pelias, is said to have some strange power that kills Theia.
• Thanatos and Apollion have some of Pelias's blood and essence and they've already used it to create beings before, i.e. the Kristallos.
• Pelias, who issues described just like one of Aidas spies, is a fae male, just like Thurr.
• Thanatos does create being for the sole purpose of having spies on other worlds.
• Silene carved an image of Thurr in Prythian.
• There is an exact copy of this image in Mirdagrd.

And I wonder… when Hunt visits the Oracle she says:

>“‘You remind me of that which was lost long ago,’ she said quietly. ‘I had not realized it might ever appear again.’ Before Hunt dared ask what that meant, her lions tail—a larger version of Syrinx’s—swayed over the floor. The doors behind him opened on a phantom wind, his dismissal clear. But the Oracle said before stalking into the vapors, ‘Do yourself a favor, Orion Athalar: keep well away from Bryce Quinlan.’” CC1 page 326

What if the Oracle wasn’t just referring to the Thunderbirds? What if she was refering to Thurr— to Pelias? (The Oracle also calls Hunt “Lord of Lightning” which, in this moment, connects him to Apollion and Hel more so than the Thunderbirds)I just can’t get over the similarities!

And again, Silene drew the carving of Thurr in Prythian:

>“Scenes of a blessed land, a thriving civilization. One relief had been so similar to the frieze of the Fae male forging the sword at the Crescent City Ballet that Bryce had nearly gasped. The last carving before the river had been one of transition: a Fae King and Queen seated on thrones, a mountain — different from the one with a palace atop it — behind them with three stars rising above it. A different kingdom, then.” CC3 page 119

So, we can assume that Thurr, or someone with lightning— I mean Helfire — was around Silene, or at least around / in Theia’s court after she over threw the Asteri…

And, you know who coincidentally only pops up after Theia over throws the Asteri?

Pelias.

Exhibit D:

This is, like, so minor, but made me raise my eyebrows:

Thanatos, Hunt, and Pelias all have Helmets…

Thanatos:
>“Another male in dark armor followed him, his tightly curled hair almost hidden by his war helmet. ‘Thanatos.’ Bryce said, drawing up short, pebbles skittering under her neon-pink sneakers.” CC3 page 529

>“From within the ornate helm, Thanatos’s eyes blazed with murderous rage.” CC3 page 529

>“Thanatos scoffed, ‘you are no son of his.’ He yanked off his helmet, cradling it under her arm. ‘If anything, you are mine.’” CC3 page 530

>“Thanatos picked up the narrative, resting his helmet on a knee.” CC3 page 534

>“‘I did not approve of the plan,’ Thanatos snapped, gripping his helmet tight. ‘I still do not.’” CC3 page 548

Hunt/Umbra Mortis:

>“No sign of the skull-faced helmet that had earned Hunt a nickname whispered down every corridor and street in Crescent City: The Umbra Mortis. The Shadow of Death.” CC1 page 69-70

Paraphrasing a bit here, because there’s a lot of text in between what I want to focus on:
>“He [Hunt] stopped at the barracks to pick up his helmet. … No guns. So Hunt grabbed a few more of his black-hilted daggers, and his long-handled knife, too. Every movement was careful. Deliberate. Every shift of his body as he donned his black battle-suit quieted his mind, pulling him farther and farther from himself. … Everything okay? Hunt slid on his black gloves. … I’m going to order dumpling soup for lunch. Want some? Hunt turned the phone over, blocking the screen from view. As if it'd somehow stop her from learning what he was doing. … And then he donned the helmet. The world descended into cool calculations, its colors dimmed. Only then did he pick up his phone and write back to Bryce, I’m good. I’ll see you later. … Okay. … A flap of his wings and he was Sky born. and he did not look back.” CC1 page 495-496

And right after we get this from Bryce:
>“She’d typed out a dozen different replies to that not-Hunt message.” CC1 page 496

And finally, this is how Bryce describes Hunt’s Umbra Mortis alter ego when he has his helmet on:
>“She didn’t dare to move. He was a wraith, a demon, a—a shadow of death. This male, helmeted and in his battle clothes… she didn’t know him.” CC1 page 498

>“Hunt checked the gun holstered at his thigh. The clip was loaded. Reloads sat in his back pocket. He could have used the comfort of his Umbra Mortis suit with its twin swords nestled in sheaths down its back. But two handguns, a knife in his boot, and his lightning would have to do. He would have to do. Just Hunt. He could live with that.” CC3 page 729

>“They had a few close calls, and Hunt wished again for his Umbra Mortis suit, if only for the helmet’s heightened hearing to detect any passing politicians or workers.” CC3 page 733

>“For the first time in his life, it seemed as Urd was listening… he gazed at the towering wall of the Fallen’s wings behind the seven crystal thrones. And there, at its center, pinned like a new trophy, was his Umbra Mortis helmet and suit.” CC3 page 734

>“Hunt buckled the last bit of his suit into place, fitting the Umbra Mortis helmet over his head. Bryce hadn’t questioned him when he took it off the wall. She knew why he wanted it… He’d wear the suit and helmet one more time. It wouldn’t be the Umbra Mortis wearing that suit, but Hunt. Her Hunt.” CC3 page 734-735

Pelias:

>“Luna’s Horn was a weapon wielded by Pelias, the first Starborn Prince, during the First Wars. … Pelias wielded the Horn until he died.’ Ruhn put a hand on his chest. ‘My ancestor— whose power flows in my veins…’ Ruhn held out his phone, the picture of the illuminated manuscript glaringly bright in the thick shadows. The illustration of the carved horn lifted to the lips of a helmeted Fae male was as pristine as it had been when inked millennia ago. Above the figure gleamed an eight-pointed star, the emblem of the Starborn. Bryce went wholly still. The stillness of the Fae, like a stag halting in a wood.” CC1 page 234

Not only do they all have helmets but their appearance (or lack there of) is interesting!

Thanatos:

• Dark hair
• Dark eyes
• Tan skin (at least in his image on the CC Wiki!)
• Handsome
• Helmet

>“Thanatos’s tightly curled black hair was cropped close to his head, displaying the handsome, unsmiling face above the powerful body bedecked in dark, ornate armor… Thanatos’s dark eyes pierced her soul.”
CC2 page 414

Hunt:

• Dark hair
• Dark eyes
• Tan skin
• Handsome
• Helmet

>“Predator. Killer. Monster. Hunt Athalar’s angular dark eyes…” CC1 page 69

>“Hunt nodded once, his golden-brown face betraying nothing. Isaiah scanned the angel, since Hunt sure as Hel wasn’t going to volunteer anything without being prompted. No sign of the skull-faced helmet that had earned Hunt a nickname whispered down every corridor and street in Crescent City: The Umbra Mortis. The Shadow of Death.” CC1 page 69-70

>“The Archangel was gorgeous. Horrifically, indecently gorgeous. Hunt Athalar and Isaiah Tiberian stood behind him—almost as good-looking…” CC1 page 129

Pelias:

• Hair is not described.
• Skin is not described.
• Attractiveness is not described.
• Helmet.
• His name literally means “dark” (and that has to be something!)

Again I’ll include this quote:
>“…the picture of the illuminated manuscript glaringly bright in the thick shadows. The illustration of the carved horn lifted to the lips of a helmeted Fae male was as pristine as it had been when inked millennia ago. Above the figure gleamed an eight-pointed star, the emblem of the Starborn.” CC1 page 234

But… why is his physical appearance not described?

Bryce clearly sees Pelias in Silene’s memory… is Bryce just, ignoring what he looks like on purpose? Neither she nor Silene describe him at all! That’s weird, isn’t it?

Which makes me wonder: what if his looks are a spoiler?!

Maybe he looks like a prince of hel? Or maybe he looks like a certain son of hel? Or maybe he is the reason why Helena and Silene look so different from their “parents”?

So…I’m in my reread of the whole Maasverse before the release of the new ACOTAR 6 book (as one does), and I noticed something. In Tower of Dawn, Nesryn and Sartaq, while going through the first old watch tower, they find Asterian blades, like the Asterian horses, but maybe also the Asteri from Crescent City?? It says they were a people from long ago, fae, the swords they find sparkle like starlight (like the Star Swords????). Later when Aelin and company are going through the trove in Anielle Rowan finds more Asterian blades and comments on them being “other worldly”. Has anyone else noticed this? Are they the same people? Am I loosing my mind? 😅 just thought I’d share!

I’ve tried to read CC like three times, and I cannot get myself to get past the first hundred pages without DNFing. Do I absolutely have to read it to understand the next ACOTAR books or will I be hopelessly confused? I’m OK with a little bit of confusion, as long as I can understand the plot. Please help!

How Mors story will go?

I know the next book is going to be Elain focused but I’d love to figure out how Mor’s story will play out.

SJM loves to nerf the powerful female characters in her books and I’d like for one to actually stay around. I also really liked the depth of ACOSF and how it wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows. With the small chapter we get from Mor where she’s calls herself a “pathetic coward” in ACOFAS, hoping we get a similar journey from loathing herself to finally fucking up her father.

Also if you don’t like Mor, please don’t just use the comments to give out about her. All I’m looking for is a bit of discussion for where her character might go.

My current theory is:

1. Mor tells the inner circle she’s leaving the night court and wants to go off to the continent basically because

\- she’s given in to her cowardice and shame and doesn’t want to face her fathers presence in Velaris and feels left behind in life in the night court i.e she’s watching all her friends form relationship where she’s too afraid and is kind of on her own (Rhys/Feyre, Cassian/Nesta, Azriel/Elain Amren/Varian)

Rhys will probably be a dick etc etc, something similar to how he’s dismissive of everyone that isn’t his mate and make her do something if she wants to go.

2. This will involve teaching Nesta or someone to take over her courtier role. Nesta and Mor have a bit more in common than we realise, shocker!

3. Emerie comes along for some reason, she’s the only character that could kind of be with her. Idk why but I feel like they’re be something to do with her wings where Mor will figure out she likes girls.

4. Somehow she’s end up in charge of the court of nightmares, again idk how. She shook a mountain when she got her powers so she’s obviously very powerful we just for some reason don’t know how.

Anyone else here an audio book fan? I used to be obsessed with reading when I was younger especially the dystopian novels (anyone else still traumatized by divergent?) I mentioned I was on the last book of crescent city and my mom asked how I read it so
Fast and I mentioned I listen to the audio book while I work (I’m a graphic designer) she then was going on about how I’m cheating. When I’m not working, I read the library book hard copy but listen while I’m driving or working. I guess it does feel like cheating but also I’m still using my brain to imagine the world? Idk I’m just feeling conflicted and like maybe I shouldn’t say o
“Read” the Massaverse (my library only had the audiobook of the second crescent city book so I could literally only listen lol)
Anyone else have any thoughts?

Hi,

I’ve seen a bunch of threads about this but I honestly have no interest in reading ACOTAR but I know the third book is like directly related. I read them because of the urban fantasy esque vibe but I can’t really be bothered to go read ACOTAR just to understand the third book. Could I just do without it?

So I read the ACOTAR series about two years ago and understood it really well, but I need a refresher without rereading and searching for the answer to my question without reading 4 big ol books.

I know that Feyre turned into a Fae through the drops from all of the High Lords, and her sisters from the Cauldron, but is there any way for a Mortal to turn Fae without the High Lords or the big scary Cauldron? Evolution? Idk. Thanks lmao!!

So doing a re read of the Maasverse ahead of the release this fall. I just finished ACOTAR, and have just started CC. When they mentioned the Istros, I thought to look up other major river names. The big one in ACOTAR is the Sidra. I was FLOORED when I learned “Sidra” can mean “star born” from the latin word “sidus”

I also noted at the beginning of ACOTAR that Papa Archeron had “ward” marks carved in the doors and they looked like “swirls and worls” just like the trove items had on them. So potential nod to wyrd marks which are described as not only geometric shapes, but swirls and worls as well.

Anyone else been doing a re-read and picking up on small details?

I haven't seen this discussed, but please feel free to add links if there are existing posts somewhere...

What if Enalius (ACOTAR) and Rhiannon Crochan (TOG) are actually the same historical figure? Some key points below that seem just too coincidental in the lore from both worlds:

1. The "Three-Day Stand" in both worlds has probably been rewritten, but the core events remain the same:

A. Legend of Enalius: He is worshipped as the first Illyrian warrior-god. He drew a line in the dirt at the Pass on Ramiel and held off an entire invading enemy (Daglan/Asteri) for three days. On the fourth day, he crawled up the mountain with his guts hanging out to reach the sacred summit stone before dying.

B. Legend of Rhiannon Crochan: She is worshipped as the last Crochan Queen. During the Witch Wars, she held the gates of her city against the invading Ironteeth for three days. On the dawn of the fourth day, she was dealt her finishing blow by the Ironteeth Matrons and died.

2. The Horns: Both legends feature a sacred horn blown to signal when their defenses fell.

A. In Rhiannon's story, her ancestor blew the Horn of Telyn Vanora on the fourth dawn to sound a tragic retreat. Later in KoA, Bronwen Vanora carries this exact cracked, ancient horn. She tells Manon that it is her honor to blow it again—not to warn their people of a massacre, but to rally them to take back their land.

B. In Enalius's story, Luna’s Horn was blown on the fourth day to banish the invaders and seal the rifts.

3. Truth-Teller and Damaris:

A. Damaris is the legendary sword of truth wielded by Gavin and later Aelin, featuring an "eye" on its pommel representing the Three-Faced Goddess. It is implied to be a ancient witch relic forged during Rhiannon’s time.

B. Truth-Teller is the legendary, dark-hued dagger wielded by Azriel. During the crossover events of CC, it is revealed that Truth-Teller is the twin sword to Gwydion (Starsword).

C. "Truth-Teller" and "Damaris" are either the exact same blade passed down through different names across rifts, or sister blades forged by the same historical figure (Rhiannon/Enalius) to combat world-eating entities.

4. Crown of Stars:

In ACOMAF, Rhysand owns the crown of stars. In ToG, the symbol of the Witch Kingdom's sovereign rule is the very similar crown of stars worn by Rhiannon Crochan. The fact that this heirloom ended up in the Night Court implies that the ancient royal line of the Witches crossed over into Prythian’s history.

5. Witch Origins of the Illyrians:

A. The Illyrians are a sub-race of Fae with bat-like wings, warrior culture, and fear of women gaining magical power.

B. In ToG, the Ironteeth Witches are a warrior-race born from cross-breeding Fae and Valg. They fly, wear leather, and are deeply matriarchal.

C. What if... the Illyrians are the historical descendants of the ToG witches who fled through a Wyrdgate/rift into Prythian? Over millennia of patriarchy, the history was rewritten so that the matriarchal Crochan Witch Queen Rhiannon was replaced by male historians into the patriarchal Illyrian warrior-god Enalius to erase the powerful female origins.

What is everyone's thoughts? Arguments for and against are welcome... or heck maybe this will spur alternative theories when seeing the similarities. :)

So I have been listening to all the books again preparing for the release in October. I just finished TOG for the millionth time and moved straight into ACOTAR after. Listening back-to-back made me notice something...
In one of the alternative/false realities Maeve creates for Aelin, she is giving her a lesson in a glen, telling her the story of the queen who could walk between worlds.
The glen is described very similarly to the one that Tamlin and Lucien take Feyre to in ACOTAR.
Aelin even says something about the willows singing or something like that, like what Tamlin describes before he lifts Feyre’s glamour.
Is this just SJM coincidentally using similar descriptions for each of these glens or do we think Maeve has either been to the Spring Court/Prythian and is using this visual? Would be really cool if they are somehow related. Who knows though. Thoughts? Theories? Unhinged theories welcomed and encouraged.

Edit: Also, I just remembered that Aelin also mentions swimming in a nearby pool with Rowan in this memory. Could that be the mysterious pool of starlight?

I have read all of TOG, CC, and ACOTAR but it was mostly 2+ years ago at this point! There are so many interwoven theories I forget what's actually canon. Are there any good sources for book summaries that help explain the cross overs also?

okay so I just finished TOG and I'm still in withdrawal from that but thought reading acotar could be a good new series especially with the new one coming out. How long does it take for it to get interesting 😭😭 I'm like halfway through ch. 9 and I'm not emotionally attached to anyone yet lol so im wondering when that happens